Re: Leaving: I can't help
Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Graham, Okay, the guilt and peer pressure has finally overwhelmed my better judgement! ;-) Ooo-kay; me too. Between work, two small kids and a choir I can't promise to deliver by any set deadline, but I can probably re-read and revise some text and examples. I don't know how to play any instrument, but I do sing and I've typeset around 100 choral pieces so far. I'm not a native english speaker, but I've never let that stop me. Oh, and I personally find the existing Lilypond documentation very good, at least compared to other documentation out there. Send me (or point me to), one at a time, the section(s) you want me to review/rewrite. I'll do what I can, and when I'm done a section, point me to the next. That sounds like it could work for me, too. Cheers, -- Arvid ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
On 09 Jan 2008 17:02:33 +0100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arvid Gr__tting) wrote: Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Send me (or point me to), one at a time, the section(s) you want me to review/rewrite. I'll do what I can, and when I'm done a section, point me to the next. That sounds like it could work for me, too. Great, have a look at NR 1.1 Pitches, then. No .texinfo required; just read the docs (HTML or PDF is fine) and send emails with comments. The more specific the better. (I want everybody to start off with Pitches; after that, we'll branch out more) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
2008/1/6, Eyolf Østrem [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ehem... unless with currently you mean at this very moment, we do have one, although too pressed for time at this very moment (lasting until the middle of the month) to be as active as desirable. But *zero*? No. (S! You're ruining Graham's rhetorical effect!) :-) Valentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
Hi Graham, Okay, the guilt and peer pressure has finally overwhelmed my better judgement! ;-) If I had an advanced lilypond user offer to help, I wouldn't ask them to work on the texinfo files directly (unless they particularly wanted to). I just want somebody who can review the material in detail, answer questions from other helpers, etc. Maybe create a few small lilypond examples to replace (or add to) existing examples. I'm in. Send me (or point me to), one at a time, the section(s) you want me to review/rewrite. I'll do what I can, and when I'm done a section, point me to the next. Cheers, Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:19:13 +0100 Valentin Villenave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/1/6, Eyolf __strem [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ehem... unless with currently you mean at this very moment, we do have one, although too pressed for time at this very moment (lasting until the middle of the month) to be as active as desirable. But *zero*? No. (S! You're ruining Graham's rhetorical effect!) Exactly. :) It's been about a month since an update from you. I know your book is due at the end of Jan, and this of course takes priority. I'm not complaining about you. However, this is still a problem for me. I have formatters working on sections which have never been touched by a rewriter. My intent was to have this work like a production line in a factory: 1) Rewriters fix the content (such as lilypond examples, adding rough text, etc). 2) Formatters polish the presentation of the content (fix the English writing, fix indentation in lilypond examples, add links, etc) 3) advertise section of the docs on -user, get comments about what work still needs to be done. Go back to step 1 and repeat until we have no more commments. If step 1 isn't being done, it's a problem. Besides, did you _really_ want to be the only person working on the content? It would be much, much better if we had a couple of different people working on this, so you could all check each other's work. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
On 06.01.2008 (12:52), Graham Percival wrote: It's been about a month since an update from you. Ten days, to be exact :) Besides, did you _really_ want to be the only person working on the content? Of course not! I just reacted to the zero part. eyolf -- Who dat who say who dat when I say who dat? -- Hattie McDaniel ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:08:26 +0100 Eyolf __strem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06.01.2008 (12:52), Graham Percival wrote: It's been about a month since an update from you. Ten days, to be exact :) ... since an updated .itely file since you? (to be honest, I was guessing. As soon as I've committed a patch / merged a file, I forget all about it) Besides, did you _really_ want to be the only person working on the content? Of course not! I just reacted to the zero part. Again, rhetoric. Hey, it finally guilt-tripped Kieren into offering to help. Don't argue with results. :) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:50:01 -0500 Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a professional composer. I use Lilypond (nearly) every day. I don't actively (i.e., visibly) contribute to Lilypond code or documentation... and may not in the near future, despite attempts to guilt me into doing so. ;-) You know my instant hostile reaction to anybody making demands of lilypond volunteers. And I am quite aware that I'm being hypocritical in trying to guilt advanced users into contributing to the docs. So it is with the greatest of reluctance that I continue such attempts. We currently have *zero* active helpers in GDP who are working on the contents of the docs. The presentation is coming along nicely. We have people fixing the English grammar, rearranging the material so that things are easier to find, etc. But the actual contents? Nope. I've had questions from GDP helpers about various parts of the docs, and my reply has almost always been I don't know, try experimenting or asking on the mailist. Sometimes they do so, and sometimes they get an answer. Sometimes they don't, so we need to guess. On some occasions, I've ended up saying well, I don't know whether it's foo or bar. Let's just stick foo in the docs, and if it's wrong, somebody will complain about it. Making wild guesses and hoping for future complaints is not the ideal way to write docs. It sucks for users who encounter these problems in the future. It sucks for doc writers, because they feel stupid and useless. It sucks for me, because I feel that I'm letting down the volunteers I'm supposed to be supporting. Concrete example? Well, there's falls and doits in Expressive marks. I have no clue what these are. Something for jazz singers? Saxophonists? Maybe they're used in Baroque notation? Or a special mark for accordion players? Is the current doc section acceptable? I have no clue. Judging from the picture and the input, \bendAfter does *something*. But I don't know what it's doing, nor what else the doc should say here. Maybe people who use \bendAfter would also want a link to the ancient notation articulations? Or the vocal aligning syllabels ? I have no clue. In a few months, if GDP is still progressing, we'll be tackling NR 2 specific notation. These problems will be even worse then. I honestly think that I've /never/ seen any classical guitar sheet music. How am I supposed to supervise work on this section? I can check submissions for accordance to the doc policy, but I certainly can't judge the *contents* of those docs. Now what about the poor GDP helper who gets assigned work on Guitar music? I don't think that any of the current helpers play guitar, so they'll have the same problems that I face. (nothing personal against guitars... I know virtually nothing about everything else in NR 2, including vocal music) Many of the volunteers begin their emails saying I know almost nothing about music notation, but I'm willing to help if you think I can without embarassing myself. I am completely baffled about all these volunteers -- I mean, I'm incredibly happy about them, but baffled nevertheless. Why do so many people want to help after reading nothing more than the lilypond tutorial? And conversely, why is it that nobody who actually *is* familiar with music notation and lilypond volunteers? If I had an advanced lilypond user offer to help, I wouldn't ask them to work on the texinfo files directly (unless they particularly wanted to). I just want somebody who can review the material in detail, answer questions from other helpers, etc. Maybe create a few small lilypond examples to replace (or add to) existing examples. - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Leaving: I can't help
Hi Graham, Firstly, I wanted to add my voice to the chorus of Thanks! for all the work you've done -- Lilypond will miss you. =) But secondly, I wanted to comment on the following: I'm spend all my time writing music, so I don't have time! -- This is my favorite excuse for not getting involved... and by favorite, I mean makes me grind my teeth. If you're a professional composer and use lilypond every day, then IMO you should be the _most_ involved, not the least. I mean, if the heaviest users don't contribute to the project, then who else should? I'm not saying there *aren't* people out there -- including working composers -- who could help more than they do. Nor am I arguing the fact that many people get more out of Lilypond -- and the work of people like you and the coding team -- than they put in. However, I *DO* object to the generalized implication that professional composers who use Lilypond every day should be the _most_ [visibly] involved [in documentation and coding efforts] or else they're not getting involved. I'm a professional composer. I use Lilypond (nearly) every day. I don't actively (i.e., visibly) contribute to Lilypond code or documentation... and may not in the near future, despite attempts to guilt me into doing so. ;-) Does that mean I'm not getting involved and don't contribute to the project? 1. I do more Lilypond advertising (i.e., providing positive exposure) than anyone else I know. I am constantly putting *REAL* Lilypond scores in front of *REAL* working musicians and composers/ arrangers. On those rare occasions when I don't get unsolicited comments about the quality of the output, I make a point of telling anyone who will listen -- and many who won't -- about the benefits of Lilypond. The colophon of every published score explicitly mentions Lilypond and points to the website. Once I get my own website up and running (sometime this month), it will also have Lilypond kudos and links. 2. As a result of my being one of the heaviest users of Lilypond, I am constantly running into REAL-WORLD engraving problems, the kind that rarely come up in an ivory-tower (i.e., code and docs) situation. Not only does that mean I help push Lilypond to be a better program (by finding bugs and feature-holes), but it means that when another user in the 'Pond runs into similar issues, there's a good chance that I've got a solution or workaround to offer. And -- as you probably are aware -- I constantly monitor the list, and contribute said solutions and workarounds when I can. And finally, 3. I have personally put forward my own hard-earned dollars (well... Euros) to sponsor features that make Lilypond better. I continue to post sponsorship offers, though, for the record, nobody has taken me up on those offers recently. Ironically, I will soon have paid more *ACTUAL MONEY* for my use of the free, open-source Lilypond than I ever did for the proprietary, commercial Finale with all its annual upgrade fees! So... if I make you grind your teeth, all I can say is 4 out of 5 dentists recommend Trident. =) Best regards, Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Leaving: I can't help
Some users may have read the emails Leaving: replacements and and thought gee, I wish I could help, but ``I don't know enough''. I would like to debunk this myth. I don't know enough, either! Neither did I when I began. I was a music composition student, with no experience with unix development tools. No previous experience writing documentation. I'd never used LilyPond to do anything other than string music -- no piano, no vocal music -- and only simply chamber music parts -- no cues, no polymetric stuff, no \overrides. These days, you don't need to know any unix development tools to help with the lilypond docs. And you don't need to know everything about LilyPond to be helpful. In fact, some tasks require *NO* lilypond knowledge _at all_. (ie lilypond-user secretary) And you know what? After three years of being the doc editor, I _still_ don't know how to do piano music, vocal music, or cues. I've learned how to do \overrides, though. I would like to emphasize this. IF I HAD TO WRITE VOCAL MUSIC, I WOULD NEED TO READ THE **TUTORIAL**! I don't even know how to use \lyricAdd, which is the easiest way to do vocal music! And I don't think that anybody would claim that I haven't been useful to the project. So trust me: if you're willing to help, we can find something that's within your abilities. I'm spend all my time writing music, so I don't have time! -- This is my favorite excuse for not getting involved... and by favorite, I mean makes me grind my teeth. If you're a professional composer and use lilypond every day, then IMO you should be the _most_ involved, not the least. I mean, if the heaviest users don't contribute to the project, then who else should? Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
