Re: Lighter appearance
2008/11/14 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Is there a set of settings to make LP output lighter? Setting line-thickness = \staff-space / 16 seems a good start, but I assume there's more to it. I've tried to make it lighter, for a particular publication -- there is some settings (worked for 2.10, afair): % % \override StaffSymbol #'ledger-line-thickness = #'(1.0 . 0.1) % \override StaffSymbol #'thickness = #0.5 % \override BarLine #'hair-thickness = #0.7 % \override BarLine #'thick-thickness = #4 % \override Slur #'thickness = #3 % \override NoteHead #'font-size = #-0.7 % \override Accidental #'font-size = #-0.7 % \override Dots #'font-size = #-0.7 There may be a lot more. But LP's output is great, indeed. -- Johan -- Dmytro O. Redchuk ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
2008/11/14 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Is there a set of settings to make LP output lighter? Setting line-thickness = \staff-space / 16 seems a good start, but I assume there's more to it. I've tried to make it lighter, for a particular publication -- there is some settings (worked for 2.10, afair): % % \override StaffSymbol #'ledger-line-thickness = #'(1.0 . 0.1) % \override StaffSymbol #'thickness = #0.5 % \override BarLine #'hair-thickness = #0.7 % \override BarLine #'thick-thickness = #4 % \override Slur #'thickness = #3 % \override NoteHead #'font-size = #-0.7 % \override Accidental #'font-size = #-0.7 % \override Dots #'font-size = #-0.7 There may be a lot more. But LP's output is great, indeed. -- Johan -- Dmytro O. Redchuk ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
David Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you look at a good score of anything that was printed before the time of computers, you can see that Lilypond looks 'almost like real music', and Sibelius looks 'like a computer' This does not necessarily mean that old scores look better than new scores. Modern digital technology provides possibilities that were not feasible with old printing techniques. And no, this does not necessarily mean that new printing look better than old printing, either. As anyone who has seen books typeset in 14pt Times Roman can confirm... I like the way LilyPond does it, but sometimes I'd like it slightly better when it would be just a little bit lighter. Just a personal taste. (My main fonts for typesetting are Garamond Light and Helvetica Light, so probably I'm a Light person.) Okay, back to our regular schedule of beautifully typesetting beautiful music. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
This will always be a kludge. The font and the line width settings are tuned together. If you really want to do this, you have to recompile LilyPond including the fonts, and update the definitions for the fonts too. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Dmytro O. Redchuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/11/14 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Is there a set of settings to make LP output lighter? Setting line-thickness = \staff-space / 16 seems a good start, but I assume there's more to it. I've tried to make it lighter, for a particular publication -- there is some settings (worked for 2.10, afair): % % \override StaffSymbol #'ledger-line-thickness = #'(1.0 . 0.1) % \override StaffSymbol #'thickness = #0.5 % \override BarLine #'hair-thickness = #0.7 % \override BarLine #'thick-thickness = #4 % \override Slur #'thickness = #3 % \override NoteHead #'font-size = #-0.7 % \override Accidental #'font-size = #-0.7 % \override Dots #'font-size = #-0.7 There may be a lot more. But LP's output is great, indeed. -- Johan -- Dmytro O. Redchuk ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
On 2008-11-14 at 08:09, Johan Vromans wrote: Hi, While comparing the LilyPond gegerated output with the output of a competitor program, I noticed that the LP outout is much 'heavier'. See e.g., http://www.squirrel.nl/pub/xfer/lilsib.jpg . The top line is from LilyPond, the bottom line is from a Sibelius printout. I think the larger noteheads in combination with the thinner lines make the score easier to read. Is there a set of settings to make LP output lighter? Setting line-thickness = \staff-space / 16 seems a good start, but I assume there's more to it. If you look at a good score of anything that was printed before the time of computers, you can see that Lilypond looks 'almost like real music', and Sibelius looks 'like a computer' and 'not like real music'. I suggest that if it’s difficult to read you should just increase the staff size - which will simply make everything bigger. David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
On 14.11.2008 (16:20), Carl D. Sorensen wrote: On 11/14/08 2:27 PM, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree -- are you sure the top line isn't from Finale or something? It looks incredibly bad. WTF is up with the gap between the sixteenth and eighth in the second bar from the end?! LilyPond would *not* produce that. The note spacing in Johan's sample is dramatically different (worse) than in my LilyPond output. I assume that the bad spacing in the top example was due to some wide-syllable lyrics which were not included in the image? Other than that, I think the head to head comparison proves with all the clarity one could desire how superior Lilypond's output is to its rivals'. That music typesetting is not just about joining dots. Tastes may differ, but the Sibelius sample looks like something from a first-grade piano manual with its oversized noteheads -- almost like setting a whole text in helvetica capitals. Finale has -- apart from its abhorrable spacing -- these ultra-thin hairlines which makes it look like something that is set by a computer... That said, I sometimes think the lilypond defaults are a bit to the heavy side. Especially the final barlines come to mind. As a future feature, it wouldn't be a bad idea with an alternative set of lighter settings which could be turned on with a \layout or \paper option. Eyolf -- I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. -- Charles Schulz ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 09:32:59AM +0100, Eyolf Østrem wrote: That said, I sometimes think the lilypond defaults are a bit to the heavy side. Especially the final barlines come to mind. As a future feature, it wouldn't be a bad idea with an alternative set of lighter settings which could be turned on with a \layout or \paper option. I like this idea. I have two or three printers, and each one prints differently. One in particular seems to make all thin lines very thin, and if I know I am going to use it I have to manually adjust stems and bar lines to match. A set of default settings would make this much easier! -- Cameron Horsburgh Blog: http://spiritcry.wordpress.com/ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is not the default output of LilyPond. I agree -- are you sure the top line isn't from Finale or something? It looks incredibly bad. WTF is up with the gap between the sixteenth and eighth in the second bar from the end?! LilyPond would *not* produce that. This is a cut-out from a larger score, it was not typeset separately. The notes have lyrics that account for the large gap between the sixteenth and eighth notes. The Sibelius score (second line), also a cut-out, did not have the lyrics. What I wanted to show is the slighly thinner lines for the staff lines and stems, and the slightly larger note heads that IMHO improve readability. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
Carl D. Sorensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I set that exact line in LilyPond 2.11.64. I needed to do some manual
beaming to get the same beaming as in the top line.
Interesting. When I try:
\relative c' {
\time 6/8
r4 a8 d e f | e d4 ~ d4. |
r4 r16 g,16 e'8 g e16 d | c8. ( a16 g8 ~ g8. ) r16 r8 |
}
the beaming comes out exactly as in the original sample.
The note spacing in Johan's sample is dramatically different (worse)
than in my LilyPond output.
This is a cut-out from a larger score, it was not typeset separately.
The notes have lyrics that account for the large gap between the
sixteenth and eighth notes. The Sibelius score (second line), also a
cut-out, did not have the lyrics.
The staff lines in my LilyPond output are lighter [...] The slurs in
my output are lighter [...] The noteheads in my output are heavier
This is *very* interesting... I see no difference in the noteheads,
but your lines are definitely thinner than mine.
I think I found an explanation. My score sample was typeset with
#(set-global-staff-size 14)
I'd expected the line thickness to scale accordingly, but apparently
this is not the case (4.2.1, Setting the staff size):
Each font is tuned for a different staff size: at a smaller size the
font becomes heavier, to match the relatively heavier staff lines.
relatively heavier staff lines seems to imply that the lines do not
get thinner when a smaller staff size is selected.
-- Johan
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
2008/11/15 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I think I found an explanation. My score sample was typeset with #(set-global-staff-size 14) I'd expected the line thickness to scale accordingly, but apparently this is not the case (4.2.1, Setting the staff size): Each font is tuned for a different staff size: at a smaller size the font becomes heavier, to match the relatively heavier staff lines. relatively heavier staff lines seems to imply that the lines do not get thinner when a smaller staff size is selected. Not necessarily. Staff lines are thinner but not in the same proportion. They would be illegible for small staff sizes if their thickness were proportional. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
On 11/15/08 4:32 AM, Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Carl D. Sorensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I set that exact line in LilyPond 2.11.64. I needed to do some manual
beaming to get the same beaming as in the top line.
Interesting. When I try:
\relative c' {
\time 6/8
r4 a8 d e f | e d4 ~ d4. |
r4 r16 g,16 e'8 g e16 d | c8. ( a16 g8 ~ g8. ) r16 r8 |
}
the beaming comes out exactly as in the original sample.
Ahh, that's the difference. I set it as 3/4, instead of 6/8.
The note spacing in Johan's sample is dramatically different (worse)
than in my LilyPond output.
This is a cut-out from a larger score, it was not typeset separately.
The notes have lyrics that account for the large gap between the
sixteenth and eighth notes. The Sibelius score (second line), also a
cut-out, did not have the lyrics.
Oh -- the lyrics gave the bad spacing. Thanks for the explanation.
Carl
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Lighter appearance
Hi, While comparing the LilyPond gegerated output with the output of a competitor program, I noticed that the LP outout is much 'heavier'. See e.g., http://www.squirrel.nl/pub/xfer/lilsib.jpg . The top line is from LilyPond, the bottom line is from a Sibelius printout. I think the larger noteheads in combination with the thinner lines make the score easier to read. Is there a set of settings to make LP output lighter? Setting line-thickness = \staff-space / 16 seems a good start, but I assume there's more to it. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
While I'm sure there is, I'll say that lilypond's heavier look is intentional (see http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/typography-features) . I'll say that the lighter look of the scores produced by most other programs makes them almost impossible for me to read, at the very least difficult. Regardless, I would suggest re-reading through LM 4 Tweaking output and NR 5 Changing defaults. How to go about making those changes is discussed there. Am 14.11.2008 um 17:09 schrieb Johan Vromans: Hi, While comparing the LilyPond gegerated output with the output of a competitor program, I noticed that the LP outout is much 'heavier'. See e.g., http://www.squirrel.nl/pub/xfer/lilsib.jpg . The top line is from LilyPond, the bottom line is from a Sibelius printout. I think the larger noteheads in combination with the thinner lines make the score easier to read. Is there a set of settings to make LP output lighter? Setting line-thickness = \staff-space / 16 seems a good start, but I assume there's more to it. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
2008/11/14 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, While comparing the LilyPond gegerated output with the output of a competitor program, I noticed that the LP outout is much 'heavier'. See e.g., http://www.squirrel.nl/pub/xfer/lilsib.jpg . The top line is from LilyPond, the bottom line is from a Sibelius printout. I think the larger noteheads in combination with the thinner lines make the score easier to read. This is not the default output of LilyPond. I have tried to reproduce your example and it is clearly better, bolder and more readable than the bottom sibelius example for my eyes. See attached PNG -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org attachment: test.png___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:50:01PM +0100, Francisco Vila wrote: 2008/11/14 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: While comparing the LilyPond gegerated output with the output of a competitor program, I noticed that the LP outout is much 'heavier'. See e.g., http://www.squirrel.nl/pub/xfer/lilsib.jpg . The top line is from LilyPond, the bottom line is from a Sibelius printout. I think the larger noteheads in combination with the thinner lines make the score easier to read. This is not the default output of LilyPond. I agree -- are you sure the top line isn't from Finale or something? It looks incredibly bad. WTF is up with the gap between the sixteenth and eighth in the second bar from the end?! LilyPond would *not* produce that. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lighter appearance
On 11/14/08 2:27 PM, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:50:01PM +0100, Francisco Vila wrote: 2008/11/14 Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]: While comparing the LilyPond gegerated output with the output of a competitor program, I noticed that the LP outout is much 'heavier'. This is not the default output of LilyPond. I agree -- are you sure the top line isn't from Finale or something? It looks incredibly bad. WTF is up with the gap between the sixteenth and eighth in the second bar from the end?! LilyPond would *not* produce that. I set that exact line in LilyPond 2.11.64. I needed to do some manual beaming to get the same beaming as in the top line. The rest glyphs look in Johan's sample look identical to those in the LilyPond output. The note spacing in Johan's sample is dramatically different (worse) than in my LilyPond output. The staff lines in my LilyPond output are lighter than those in Johan's sample. The slurs in my output are lighter than those in Johan's sample. The noteheads in my output are heavier than those in Johan's output, but not as large as those in his Sibelius output. For your reference, I've attached my LilyPond output. Carl LilyPondTest.png Description: LilyPondTest.png ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
