Re: Lilypond store?
Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 15:09, Stewart Holmes wrote: Yes. Harsh this may sound, but how much of the music on Mutopia would you be satisfied to print out, and use yourself? From a quick browse through various sections, I have to say that a large amount of the music on there is fairly poorly engraved. My proposition is for much more strict quality control... after all, nobody will pay money for music unless it looks professional. I suggest that you start a discussion thread on mutopia's mailing lists: If you have constructive ideas on how to create an archive of high-quality public domain notes, then I would strongly recommend you to use your ideas to improve mutopia; if that's not possible, use mutopia as a base for creating such an archive (i.e., fork the mutopia project). Hi, I initially read this thread as a proposal for offering printed versions of scores for sale. However, on a re-read, I understand that you're proposing to offer downloads of PDF files instead. The attraction of Mutopia for me was the creation of an open source archive of sheet music, that people can download for free, print out, photocopy, and distribute. Rather like Project Gutenberg, but for music. If you want to create a rival archive offering pieces for download at a price, then you are of course free to go ahead. Speaking from the point of view of someone who's looked after Mutopia for the last seven years, I think cleaning up Mutopia pieces and organising them for printing would be a very time consuming task. Entering new pieces is of course even more time consuming. From a legal point of view, you will have to be careful what pieces from Mutopia you use. Many are licensed under a CreativeCommons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike license. Neither restricts you from selling works based on the Mutopia version, but the latter insists that you release your versions under an identical license (a bit like the GPL). My positive suggestion would be to create a new website offering high quality *printed* LilyPond-engraved music for sale based on Mutopia contributions, still licensed under open source licenses. We did some experiments with lulu.com a while ago, and the results were very promising, so that's one possibility. If we work with you on this, and improvements are fed back to Mutopia, then we'd be happy to have links from the relevant Mutopia music pages to your store (ie. buy a printed copy of this music). Of course, you can pick music from Mutopia which is already reasonably high quality and likely to be popular. If you're interested, please let me know. I would personally be very disappointed if someone were to fork Mutopia. Chris -- Chris Sawer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Mutopia team leader Free sheet music for all at: http://www.MutopiaProject.org/ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Fw: Lilypond store?
My intention is to offer downloads of PDF files. My plan was to source from public domain sources, such as archives of old sheet music, and indeed parts of Mutopia which are under certain licence. I'm not sure I understand why I would want to sell printed music - surely, here, I would not be able to compete with publishers selling similar material. In selling downloadable PDF files, you are removing this overhead, allowing you to reduce prices, and be competitive with other places selling sheet music. Also, I don't really have the time to print out post much sheet music, and would not be able to offer the print quality of a publisher. Unless... are there online services that can print deliver music? Lulu.com looks interesting - it would eliminate the need for hosting/setting up an online store... but whether the disadvantage of being on a site with a large amount of other work is big enough, I'm not sure. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, Chris. I initially read this thread as a proposal for offering printed versions of scores for sale. However, on a re-read, I understand that you're proposing to offer downloads of PDF files instead. The attraction of Mutopia for me was the creation of an open source archive of sheet music, that people can download for free, print out, photocopy, and distribute. Rather like Project Gutenberg, but for music. If you want to create a rival archive offering pieces for download at a price, then you are of course free to go ahead. Speaking from the point of view of someone who's looked after Mutopia for the last seven years, I think cleaning up Mutopia pieces and organising them for printing would be a very time consuming task. Entering new pieces is of course even more time consuming. From a legal point of view, you will have to be careful what pieces from Mutopia you use. Many are licensed under a CreativeCommons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike license. Neither restricts you from selling works based on the Mutopia version, but the latter insists that you release your versions under an identical license (a bit like the GPL). My positive suggestion would be to create a new website offering high quality *printed* LilyPond-engraved music for sale based on Mutopia contributions, still licensed under open source licenses. We did some experiments with lulu.com a while ago, and the results were very promising, so that's one possibility. If we work with you on this, and improvements are fed back to Mutopia, then we'd be happy to have links from the relevant Mutopia music pages to your store (ie. buy a printed copy of this music). Of course, you can pick music from Mutopia which is already reasonably high quality and likely to be popular. If you're interested, please let me know. I would personally be very disappointed if someone were to fork Mutopia. Chris -- Chris Sawer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Mutopia team leader Free sheet music for all at: http://www.MutopiaProject.org/ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
Trevor Bača wrote: On 7/5/06, Stewart Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggest that you start a discussion thread on mutopia's mailing lists: If you have constructive ideas on how to create an archive of high-quality public domain notes, then I would strongly recommend you to use your ideas to improve mutopia; if that's not possible, use mutopia as a base for creating such an archive (i.e., fork the mutopia project). Unfortunately I don't really have constructive ideas how to improve it; Well -- and this is a straw-man argument -- there's always the example of SlashDot and other projects with 'community content-filtering'. If the mutopia crew *could*, somehow, establish a system of community review, well then, maybe mutopia could become a repository of really professional-looking stuff. The difficulty, I think, is that it's probably easier to evaluate the wittiness of others' comments (or the relevance of news stories, as on SlashDot) than it is to evaluate the professional-ness of music engraving. So even if mutopia set up some sort of community filtering, it's not clear that the filtering would work. Dunno. Not that I care too much one way or the other about mutopia, but I do believe community filtering can work if implemented properly, and if there enough people involved who care about it. As a contributor of packages to the Fedora Linux distribution (including a lilypond package), my packages are subjected to a fairly rigorous review process before they are accepted. The process has worked so well that the Core part of the distribution (the part packaged by engineers at Red Hat) has adopted some of the quality control processes used by Fedora Extras (the packages submitted by community members) because Extras was generating better quality work than Core. The same is true of academic journals that require peer review. I think another question regarding selling scores is how much people would be willing to pay. Obviously the engraving quality must be as good or better than any print edition, but even then, while I might be willing to pay a little, I don't know if it would be enough to make this a viable fundraising method (unless the potential audience is quite large). Quentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re: Lilypond store?
Quentin Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think another question regarding selling scores is how much people would be willing to pay. Obviously the engraving quality must be as good or better than any print edition, but even then, while I might be willing to pay a little, I don't know if it would be enough to make this How to price a score? I have used a web site http://www.everynote.com which offers scans of out of print editions of scores for only a few dollars. For example, I donwloaded the violin and piano score of Prokofiev's violin concerto #1 for $US 3.50I thought that was a reasonable price. Charles ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re: Lilypond store?
I don't think there's much problem about people willing to buy... the quality can be as good or better as printed editions, thanks to Lilypond, and the price can be very reasonable due to very little overhead. I'd quite happily buy (decent) scores from the internet if they were around the same price/cheaper than printed editions. Other people obviously do too, as evidenced by www.everynote.com, and www.musicnotes.com (which is pretty expensive, and the scores not that great). I think this really could be work. To take the example of http://www.everynote.com/goods.1/JSB_PreFug_1_01.pdf from everynote, which costs $1.87. Would you rather pay for that, or a similar amount for a nicely typeset Lilypond version, e.g. http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV846/wtk1-prelude1/wtk1-prelude1-a4.pdf (one of the better engraved parts of Mutopia)? Stewart - Original Message - From: Charles Cave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Re: Lilypond store? Quentin Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think another question regarding selling scores is how much people would be willing to pay. Obviously the engraving quality must be as good or better than any print edition, but even then, while I might be willing to pay a little, I don't know if it would be enough to make this How to price a score? I have used a web site http://www.everynote.com which offers scans of out of print editions of scores for only a few dollars. For example, I donwloaded the violin and piano score of Prokofiev's violin concerto #1 for $US 3.50I thought that was a reasonable price. Charles ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
I hope you know about Mutopia, http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ /Mats Quoting Stewart Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Okay... this may seem like a strange place for this, but it's seem the best place to put it in order to get attention/opinions. What I'm proposing is some kind of a collaboration between Lilypond users to submit their scores to an online score (the scores being engraved from public domain sources, etc.). The money that is made from the sale of scores (either pdf/ly/both files) could then be distributed in 3 ways: 1) The upkeep of running the store 2) The creator of the score 3) The community Number 3: A chunk of the money would go into a piggy bank of sorts, which would be used to, upon application, help fund sponsorship of Lilypond features. That's me out... now let the shooting down commence (hopefully not). Stewart ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
Yes. Harsh this may sound, but how much of the music on Mutopia would you be satisfied to print out, and use yourself? From a quick browse through various sections, I have to say that a large amount of the music on there is fairly poorly engraved. My proposition is for much more strict quality control... after all, nobody will pay money for music unless it looks professional. - Original Message - From: Mats Bengtsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Lilypond store? I hope you know about Mutopia, http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ /Mats Quoting Stewart Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Okay... this may seem like a strange place for this, but it's seem the best place to put it in order to get attention/opinions. What I'm proposing is some kind of a collaboration between Lilypond users to submit their scores to an online score (the scores being engraved from public domain sources, etc.). The money that is made from the sale of scores (either pdf/ly/both files) could then be distributed in 3 ways: 1) The upkeep of running the store 2) The creator of the score 3) The community Number 3: A chunk of the money would go into a piggy bank of sorts, which would be used to, upon application, help fund sponsorship of Lilypond features. That's me out... now let the shooting down commence (hopefully not). Stewart ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 5 Jul 2006, at 2:09 pm, Stewart Holmes wrote: Yes. Harsh this may sound, but how much of the music on Mutopia would you be satisfied to print out, and use yourself? From a quick browse through various sections, I have to say that a large amount of the music on there is fairly poorly engraved. My proposition is for much more strict quality control... after all, nobody will pay money for music unless it looks professional. Oh yeah? And when did you last see a set of orchestral parts that looked professional? Some of them are even photocopies of (badly) handwritten manuscripts! Isn't that why Han-Wen started writing Lilypond in the first place? That said, anything to increase the profile of Open Software and increase the quality of music publishing has to be good, so good luck to you. I don't think existing publishers will agree with me though :) Nick/. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEq8BwFo+kGmUnzkQRAheSAJ0aMR1wCIhvZVp8B/vorq0ISFFGFACgnNu7 oUUvtbBlh7NVWTkqafltvF0= =cp3K -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Lilypond store?
I notice you're in the UK too ... I don't know how it works, but a lot of the stuff I'm doing may be licensable but not public domain. Especially stuff that's licenced with the Performing Rights Society, we may be able to typeset it ourselves, then sell (probably printed only :-( parts of stuff that's still in copyright. Only snag is, we'd need to keep good books in order to make returns to the PRS. I need to repeat (ianal) but I *think* we can do this, we need to check up on the legalities before we try it for real... Cheers, Wol From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stewart HolmesSent: 05 July 2006 00:17To: lilypond-user@gnu.orgSubject: Lilypond store? Okay... this may seem like a strange place for this, but it's seem the best place to put it in order to get attention/opinions. What I'm proposing is some kind of a collaboration between Lilypond users to submit their scores to an online score (the scores being engraved from public domain sources, etc.). The money that is made from the sale of scores (either pdf/ly/both files) could then be distributed in 3 ways: 1) The upkeep of running the store 2) The creator of the score 3) The community Number 3: A chunk of the money would go into a piggy bank of sorts, which would be used to, upon application, help fund sponsorship of Lilypond features. That's me out... now let the shooting down commence (hopefully not). Stewart * * This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 8272 5300, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. * * ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
Wol, Thanks... this is something I haven't considered, I don't really have any experience with the PRS. My original intention was to source entirely from public domain sources, but this raises an interesting issue. As a general thing... I'm probably going to let this topic run for another few days maybe, and see about any other responses. Then, if everything is reasonably positive, I'll start to try and get people to volunteer to help with this project. Thanks, Stewart - Original Message - From: Anthony Youngman To: Stewart Holmes ; lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Lilypond store? I notice you're in the UK too ... I don't know how it works, but a lot of the stuff I'm doing may be licensable but not public domain. Especially stuff that's licenced with the Performing Rights Society, we may be able to typeset it ourselves, then sell (probably printed only :-( parts of stuff that's still in copyright. Only snag is, we'd need to keep good books in order to make returns to the PRS. I need to repeat (ianal) but I *think* we can do this, we need to check up on the legalities before we try it for real... Cheers, Wol From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stewart HolmesSent: 05 July 2006 00:17To: lilypond-user@gnu.orgSubject: Lilypond store? Okay... this may seem like a strange place for this, but it's seem the best place to put it in order to get attention/opinions. What I'm proposing is some kind of a collaboration between Lilypond users to submit their scores to an online score (the scores being engraved from public domain sources, etc.). The money that is made from the sale of scores (either pdf/ly/both files) could then be distributed in 3 ways: 1) The upkeep of running the store 2) The creator of the score 3) The community Number 3: A chunk of the money would go into a piggy bank of sorts, which would be used to, upon application, help fund sponsorship of Lilypond features. That's me out... now let the shooting down commence (hopefully not). Stewart * * This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 8272 5300, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. * * ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 15:09, Stewart Holmes wrote: Yes. Harsh this may sound, but how much of the music on Mutopia would you be satisfied to print out, and use yourself? From a quick browse through various sections, I have to say that a large amount of the music on there is fairly poorly engraved. My proposition is for much more strict quality control... after all, nobody will pay money for music unless it looks professional. I suggest that you start a discussion thread on mutopia's mailing lists: If you have constructive ideas on how to create an archive of high-quality public domain notes, then I would strongly recommend you to use your ideas to improve mutopia; if that's not possible, use mutopia as a base for creating such an archive (i.e., fork the mutopia project). -- Erik ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
I suggest that you start a discussion thread on mutopia's mailing lists: If you have constructive ideas on how to create an archive of high-quality public domain notes, then I would strongly recommend you to use your ideas to improve mutopia; if that's not possible, use mutopia as a base for creating such an archive (i.e., fork the mutopia project). Unfortunately I don't really have constructive ideas how to improve it; now there's a fairly large volume of work on there, it becomes quite a large task to tidy the whole lot up. I propose to start from scratch, and only accept scores of a high quality. Additionally, people will be more motivated to do so, due to a potential return on their investment of time. Now I know that Lilypond is Open Source, and a very fine piece of software at that, as are many other open source projects. But I believe that there comes a point when the quality of open source becomes hard to regulate, especially when everything is free. Take the example of Lilypond and sponsorship; people are asked to help pay the costs towards development... which, in my opinion, helps to keep the quality high. Phew, that was a bit rambly, Stewart ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Lilypond store?
On 7/5/06, Stewart Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggest that you start a discussion thread on mutopia's mailing lists: If you have constructive ideas on how to create an archive of high-quality public domain notes, then I would strongly recommend you to use your ideas to improve mutopia; if that's not possible, use mutopia as a base for creating such an archive (i.e., fork the mutopia project). Unfortunately I don't really have constructive ideas how to improve it; Well -- and this is a straw-man argument -- there's always the example of SlashDot and other projects with 'community content-filtering'. If the mutopia crew *could*, somehow, establish a system of community review, well then, maybe mutopia could become a repository of really professional-looking stuff. The difficulty, I think, is that it's probably easier to evaluate the wittiness of others' comments (or the relevance of news stories, as on SlashDot) than it is to evaluate the professional-ness of music engraving. So even if mutopia set up some sort of community filtering, it's not clear that the filtering would work. Dunno. -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Fw: Lilypond store?
On 7/5/06, Stewart Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggest that you start a discussion thread on mutopia's mailing lists: If you have constructive ideas on how to create an archive of high-quality public domain notes, then I would strongly recommend you to use your ideas to improve mutopia; if that's not possible, use mutopia as a base for creating such an archive (i.e., fork the mutopia project). Unfortunately I don't really have constructive ideas how to improve it; Well -- and this is a straw-man argument -- there's always the example of SlashDot and other projects with 'community content-filtering'. If the mutopia crew *could*, somehow, establish a system of community review, well then, maybe mutopia could become a repository of really professional-looking stuff. The difficulty, I think, is that it's probably easier to evaluate the wittiness of others' comments (or the relevance of news stories, as on SlashDot) than it is to evaluate the professional-ness of music engraving. So even if mutopia set up some sort of community filtering, it's not clear that the filtering would work. Dunno. To an extent yes... but some of Mutopia's scores are so badly done that I really don't know how they were accepted in the first place. I hate to user another's work as an example in this case, but I think it's the best way to illustrate my point: http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/SorF/O1/sor_op_1_5_2/sor_op_1_5_2-a4.pdf Stewart ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Lilypond store?
Okay... this may seem like a strange place for this, but it's seem the best place to put it in order to get attention/opinions. What I'm proposing is some kind of a collaboration between Lilypond users to submit their scores to an online score (the scores being engraved from public domain sources, etc.). The money that is made from the sale of scores (either pdf/ly/both files) could then be distributed in 3 ways: 1) The upkeep of running the store 2) The creator of the score 3) The community Number 3: A chunk of the money would go into a piggy bank of sorts, which would be used to, upon application, help fund sponsorship of Lilypond features. That's me out... now let the shooting down commence (hopefully not). Stewart ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
