Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
On Aug 4, 2013 5:30 PM, Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk wrote: Me too. As a singer it looks exactly what I would expect. That's the way all vocal music is laid out - with syllables left-aligned on tied and slurred notes, wherever they appear. How is it done in jazz lead sheets? My situation here, where the tied note at the end of a system is of a short duration, is likely to be unusual in classical (common-practice) music. I did a quick peek through the opening movement of BWV 80 and it is as you say: left-aligned for ties and slurs. But all of those cases are at least quarter notes in a texture full of 8th notes; note columns in other parts push the tied note leftward, away from the system margin, without considering the width of the lyric syllable. On top of that, the old Bach-Gesellschaft edition uses a narrow text font, so even if Bach had tied an 8th note across a barline, the text wouldn't take up much horizontal space anyway. In my case, it's an end-of-the-bar syncopation (common in jazz, not so much in classical songs), and Lilypond's text font is a bit on the wide side. On *two* systems, this occurs with the syllable through, as attached, giving 3 narrow 8th note columns and one which is comparatively... huge. It may be correct by classical standards, but it is ugly. Tell you what... if you can find a lead sheet of, say, Cole Porter or Gershwin or Hoagy Carmichael with a last-note syncopation of this sort (really, anticipating a downbeat accent by part of the beat) where there is such a large space between a short note and the barline *and* the text is left aligned,* then I'll let it go. Until then, I have a feeling this is a rule that was made for classical music (where my case is rare) and it may not be optimal for another style where my case is common. * It wouldn't surprise me if engravers would rather fudge the system breaks to avoid this, instead of printing something hideous. So it may be hard to find. Maybe my solution in the end should be to use a narrower text font and adjust system breaks where needed. Eluze: see http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page#text-aligning-syllables-with-melisma -- The requested URL /doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page was not found on this server. And now I am getting site currently down due to high traffic. I was going to try overriding, just to see what it would look like, but apparently I will have to guess the syntax, which I don't care to do. Can you give me a short example? Normally I would look it up myself, but I can't find it in my local copy of the 2.16 documentation and lilypond.org is not cooperating. well - that's actually 1 override, I have three systems on one page where this is happening. I would not want a global override here because the left-alignment rule looks better in the middle of a system. Re: Changes in system breaks, I was thinking ahead to later revisions to the song. maybe it's as Phil stated in his answer: singers expect the lyric text to start with the note and do not follow other/foreign aesthetic styles Classical or jazz singers? hjh attachment: long-eighth.png___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
- Original Message - From: James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com To: Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk Cc: lily-users lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system On Aug 4, 2013 5:30 PM, Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk wrote: Me too. As a singer it looks exactly what I would expect. That's the way all vocal music is laid out - with syllables left-aligned on tied and slurred notes, wherever they appear. How is it done in jazz lead sheets? My situation here, where the tied note at the end of a system is of a short duration, is likely to be unusual in classical (common-practice) music. I did a quick peek through the opening movement of BWV 80 and it is as you say: left-aligned for ties and slurs. But all of those cases are at least quarter notes in a texture full of 8th notes; note columns in other parts push the tied note leftward, away from the system margin, without considering the width of the lyric syllable. On top of that, the old Bach-Gesellschaft edition uses a narrow text font, so even if Bach had tied an 8th note across a barline, the text wouldn't take up much horizontal space anyway. In my case, it's an end-of-the-bar syncopation (common in jazz, not so much in classical songs), and Lilypond's text font is a bit on the wide side. On *two* systems, this occurs with the syllable through, as attached, giving 3 narrow 8th note columns and one which is comparatively... huge. It may be correct by classical standards, but it is ugly. Tell you what... if you can find a lead sheet of, say, Cole Porter or Gershwin or Hoagy Carmichael with a last-note syncopation of this sort (really, anticipating a downbeat accent by part of the beat) where there is such a large space between a short note and the barline *and* the text is left aligned,* then I'll let it go. Until then, I have a feeling this is a rule that was made for classical music (where my case is rare) and it may not be optimal for another style where my case is common. * It wouldn't surprise me if engravers would rather fudge the system breaks to avoid this, instead of printing something hideous. So it may be hard to find. Maybe my solution in the end should be to use a narrower text font and adjust system breaks where needed. As far as I'm aware, there's no difference between classical and modern music. Elaine Gould makes no distinction, and is clear the lyric should be left aligned. If you want to confuse your singers, fine, but we're used to uneven note spacing, since it can't be avoided with long words, and left-aligned text on tied notes. see http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page#text-aligning-syllables-with-melisma -- The requested URL /doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page was not found on this server. And now I am getting site currently down due to high traffic. I was going to try overriding, just to see what it would look like, but apparently I will have to guess the syntax, which I don't care to do. Can you give me a short example? Normally I would look it up myself, but I can't find it in my local copy of the 2.16 documentation and lilypond.org is not cooperating. Now back. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 10:38 AM, James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 4, 2013 5:30 PM, Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk wrote: maybe it's as Phil stated in his answer: singers expect the lyric text to start with the note and do not follow other/foreign aesthetic styles Classical or jazz singers? I can't speak particularly for either classical or jazz singers (though I did a bit of both in my university years). My own arena of semi-expertise is hymnals, and I typically see lyrics centered under the starting note of a melisma/tie. The closest I see to a full left-align is perhaps a fractional alignment, something that in our alignment system would be a -0.9 or -0.8, so that the syllable extends out into the melisma, but still has the uneven/centered look of regular syllables. Seeing a column of flush-left syllables in the middle of a line of lyrics when there are 3-5 verses just looks *bad*, even if it is technically correct. Maybe not so much of a problem in through-composed or single verse lyrics, but the difference is glaringly obvious with multiple verses. On a related matter, thanks for reminding me about the lyricsMelismaAlignment tweak. I'll probably be putting that into my template. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
On Aug 5, 2013 11:07 AM, Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com wrote: Seeing a column of flush-left syllables in the middle of a line of lyrics when there are 3-5 verses just looks *bad*, even if it is technically correct. :-D Anyway, I'll take the vocalists' word for it. I still believe any professional engraver (who is not a perfect lunatic) would not allow a wide syllable at the end of a system to interfere with the note spacing to such a ghastly degree, so I've taken the approach of forcing a system break before affected bars. It all looks a lot better. And actually, now I'm inclined to think that pushing the final note to the right would just make the spacing look weird earlier in the bar... So in the end, the optimal solution was to avoid the issue rather than fighting it: nothing in my lead sheet is non-standard for singers, and there is not a single ugly end-of-line now. Thanks for the clarification, all, and helping me to see a solution that was better than my first thought. hjh ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
It seems to me that when scores are set with lots of white space, the rules are followed meticulously (and that this is why computer-generated scores began by being set much too loosely on the page - it's easier to follow spacing rules when you have lots of room to do so). As scores are set tighter on the page (I mean as a variable, not as a historical trend), then it can become necessary to break more rules in order to fit everything in. Lyric spacing is IME generally the first thing to go out the window in that case. Isolated, your example looks perfect to me. I think what's making it look ugly to you is probably that it makes the spacing suddenly wider in an otherwise fairly-tight score. I see several possibilities for you (not listed in any order): - Pretend you like it this way - Increase the horizontal spacing of the whole score - Choose a much narrower lyric font - Print the same lyric font a lot smaller [might be hard to read] - Put a line break nearby, to prevent line break right there - Change the syllable alignment for that note [I don't like this choice; the singer can't read it very well] My opinion: because you've been studying this problem for a while now, Lilypond's default probably looks worse to you than it really is. -- David R ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
On Aug 5, 2013 1:39 PM, David Rogers davidandrewrog...@gmail.com wrote: Isolated, your example looks perfect to me. I think what's making it look ugly to you is probably that it makes the spacing suddenly wider in an otherwise fairly-tight score. Sure, that sounds right. I don't think I will ever be able to see it as perfect. I see several possibilities for you (not listed in any order): - Pretend you like it this way Sense of humor - cute ;-) - Put a line break nearby, to prevent line break right there As I already said, this the way I decided to go with it. If a professional engraver might sometimes decide to break on one barline to avoid a more awkward system break on a different barline (or awkward page turn, or...), it seems to me that an unsightly gap because of a large lyric syllable would also be a valid reason to break the system elsewhere. My opinion: because you've been studying this problem for a while now, Lilypond's default probably looks worse to you than it really is. I appreciate the thought, but I'm not quite interested in that particular flavor of Kool-aid. I'll go with my eye on this. I don't like how it looks, and I get something that is easier to read by fussing with the line breaks. I'm satisfied with that -- the attached *does* look perfect to me. About the only thing that would convince me is an example from a printed edition (not from Finale, of course) where a lyric syllable forces a short note at the end of a system far left of the barline. I did sing some ensemble music back in grad school, but I don't recall ever seeing a case as egregious as my through example. If I had seen it, I would have thought it strange and remembered it. That means, either I didn't look at enough vocal music (possible), or engravers try to avoid the situation. hjh ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com writes: On Aug 5, 2013 2:59 PM, James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com wrote: I appreciate the thought, but I'm not quite interested in that particular flavor of Kool-aid. I'll go with my eye on this. I don't like how it looks, and I get something that is easier to read by fussing with the line breaks. I'm satisfied with that -- the attached *does* look perfect to me. Looks good to me too. If I was going to quibble I would say the over-all horizontal spacing might be a bit tight - but maybe the whole score looks good just as it is, and having a tight spot here is worth it. Maybe drifting off topic... I just skimmed through a thick volume of the vocal works with piano by R. Strauss (mostly from Universal Edition and other good German-speaking publishers of that time). I didn't find any tied-note examples that would help - but what I did find was impressively wide spacing during the voice part, and a big easy-to-read text font. In some of the songs, the piano introductions or interludes have very compressed horizontal spacing, but as soon as the voice enters, BOOM! luxuriously wide spacing. That has to help with issues like this. (Also you're clearly correct that this anticipatory-tie situation just doesn't happen that often in older music.) These scores look right overall, with perhaps an impression of let's waste some paper and make it perfect. :) Baerenreiter's (or Schott's?) early-80's setting of Schubert songs - tight musical spacing with a small thin-ish text font. Looks very good but the text might get hard to read if the singer's eyes aren't in good shape. Again, the overall look is consistent with itself, even though it's quite different from the above. Instead of sacrificing paper (as above), they sacrificed some text readability. Peters's well-known old print of the songs of Schumann (and their Schubert scores look about the same) (no date given, but the editor died in the 1930s) - the music is fairly tightly spaced, and the lyric font is dark and perhaps compressed horizontally. Very easy to read IMO, but maybe I'm just used to that style. This one looks right/consistent to me as well. In particular, the lyrics are easy to read, while visually harmonizing with the music - the blackness of the text and the blackness of the notes are subjectively about even, making it easier to shift my glance from one to the other without needing to re-focus. (- I think. I'm not an optometrist.) The sacrifice here is that the whole thing can turn out too tight, crammed onto the page. I guess if I was printing a very large collection of short songs I might settle for cramped spacing as well. BUT (for example) if I were to take the big, wide-open text font from the Strauss score and use it in the 1980s Schubert score, I suspect the words wouldn't even fit in the lines. Each publisher found an effective working setup that looks good, but they each solved the problems in different ways. What I take from looking at these scores is that to set primarily-vocal music really well, it's necessary to spend time before you start, making sure that your text font, your over-all horizontal spacing, and your notation font all work together to automatically give a good-looking result most of the time; and remembering that if you change any one of those you'll likely have to change the others to match it. It seems to me that Lilypond's beginnings were based purely on instrumental music, that Lilypond's lyrics were (and are) sort of an uncomfortable add-on with very limited flexibility (compared to how musically-flexible Lilypond is), and that the kind of extensive thought and experimentation with challenging vocal scores that the old publishers obviously put into their choices has not been done yet with Lilypond; so finding workable proportions to accommodate text, notes, and horizontal spacing is to some extent left up to each user. I think Lilypond's default text font is a very reasonable choice from a (free-) software point of view but only a fair-to-OK choice from a lyrics point of view. This is probably because fonts that are excellent from a lyrics point of view are non-free or hard-to-find or both. (In general, in my experience, lyric fonts for classical music are very traditional-looking according to late 19th-century expectations, able to be tightly spaced, perhaps horizontally somewhat compressed, and - very importantly - use lots of ink. The jazz-style fonts with their thick lines are certainly better for any lyric than spidery elegant light-coloured fonts would be.) If it was possible to compress and blacken Knuth's Computer Modern but keep it looking good, that would be on the right track at least. (That font seems to be in the right general style category, but it's much too light and airy for lyrics. The small-size variants of Computer Modern are blacker, but they're also wider and spaced looser, and that's the opposite of what seems to be needed here.) And copying
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 5:10 PM, David Rogers davidandrewrog...@gmail.comwrote: James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com writes: On Aug 5, 2013 2:59 PM, James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com wrote: I appreciate the thought, but I'm not quite interested in that particular flavor of Kool-aid. I'll go with my eye on this. I don't like how it looks, and I get something that is easier to read by fussing with the line breaks. I'm satisfied with that -- the attached *does* look perfect to me. Looks good to me too. If I was going to quibble I would say the over-all horizontal spacing might be a bit tight - but maybe the whole score looks good just as it is, and having a tight spot here is worth it. Maybe drifting off topic... I just skimmed through a thick volume of the vocal works with piano by R. Strauss (mostly from Universal Edition and other good German-speaking publishers of that time). I didn't find any tied-note examples that would help - but what I did find was impressively wide spacing during the voice part, and a big easy-to-read text font. In some of the songs, the piano introductions or interludes have very compressed horizontal spacing, but as soon as the voice enters, BOOM! luxuriously wide spacing. That has to help with issues like this. (Also you're clearly correct that this anticipatory-tie situation just doesn't happen that often in older music.) These scores look right overall, with perhaps an impression of let's waste some paper and make it perfect. :) Baerenreiter's (or Schott's?) early-80's setting of Schubert songs - tight musical spacing with a small thin-ish text font. Looks very good but the text might get hard to read if the singer's eyes aren't in good shape. Again, the overall look is consistent with itself, even though it's quite different from the above. Instead of sacrificing paper (as above), they sacrificed some text readability. Peters's well-known old print of the songs of Schumann (and their Schubert scores look about the same) (no date given, but the editor died in the 1930s) - the music is fairly tightly spaced, and the lyric font is dark and perhaps compressed horizontally. Very easy to read IMO, but maybe I'm just used to that style. This one looks right/consistent to me as well. In particular, the lyrics are easy to read, while visually harmonizing with the music - the blackness of the text and the blackness of the notes are subjectively about even, making it easier to shift my glance from one to the other without needing to re-focus. (- I think. I'm not an optometrist.) The sacrifice here is that the whole thing can turn out too tight, crammed onto the page. I guess if I was printing a very large collection of short songs I might settle for cramped spacing as well. BUT (for example) if I were to take the big, wide-open text font from the Strauss score and use it in the 1980s Schubert score, I suspect the words wouldn't even fit in the lines. Each publisher found an effective working setup that looks good, but they each solved the problems in different ways. I'm curious...did you happen to notice any examples where the engraver chose to split the measure that might be indicative of an approach? If I were to have done something like this for a hymnal/songbook, I would have split the measure and would have kept the entire lyrical phrase on a single system. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: I'm curious...did you happen to notice any examples where the engraver chose to split the measure that might be indicative of an approach? If I were to have done something like this for a hymnal/songbook, I would have split the measure and would have kept the entire lyrical phrase on a single system. I haven't found any examples with ties exactly as we've been discussing. It seems styles or opinions have changed over time or varied between publishers. For a good possible example, I turned to the old Peters score of Schubert's Ständchen (Horch, horch, die Lerch') - nearly every line of text begins with an upbeat - and the engraver kept each bar intact. In the same volume, the beginning of Das Wandern (first song of Die schöne Müllerin) has the piano introduction and the single word Das on the first line, and the end of the last page has (looking a bit lonely) the first word of the next verse and a segno. However, in the 1988 Baerenreiter/Henle set of Schubert songs, vol 7, the engraver seems quite willing to break bars in exactly the way I think you mean - for example, in Irdisches Glück the piano introduction finishes on beat three-and-a-half, and the singer's eighth note is on the next line, where you and I both know it belongs. :) In the same vein, the middle of the verse of that song has a new theme that starts on beat two-and-three-quarters, and the page break is comfortably set at that point in the bar. But then only a few pages further on in the book, in Am Fenster, a similar thing might have been done but was not done - there are widowed eighth notes on several lines. It seems to me that breaking bars in vocal music has never been consistently practiced by any good publisher except for the publishers of well-made hymn books, who seem to have done it as a matter of course. If they ARE being consistent, then they must have run into more important reasons why NOT to break the bars, in those other songs; and I don't know what those reasons are. My understanding of the engraving process and its rules is sketchy at best. -- David R ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:55 PM, David Rogers davidandrewrog...@gmail.comwrote: Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: I'm curious...did you happen to notice any examples where the engraver chose to split the measure that might be indicative of an approach? If I were to have done something like this for a hymnal/songbook, I would have split the measure and would have kept the entire lyrical phrase on a single system. I haven't found any examples with ties exactly as we've been discussing. It seems styles or opinions have changed over time or varied between publishers. For a good possible example, I turned to the old Peters score of Schubert's Ständchen (Horch, horch, die Lerch') - nearly every line of text begins with an upbeat - and the engraver kept each bar intact. In the same volume, the beginning of Das Wandern (first song of Die schöne Müllerin) has the piano introduction and the single word Das on the first line, and the end of the last page has (looking a bit lonely) the first word of the next verse and a segno. However, in the 1988 Baerenreiter/Henle set of Schubert songs, vol 7, the engraver seems quite willing to break bars in exactly the way I think you mean - for example, in Irdisches Glück the piano introduction finishes on beat three-and-a-half, and the singer's eighth note is on the next line, where you and I both know it belongs. :) In the same vein, the middle of the verse of that song has a new theme that starts on beat two-and-three-quarters, and the page break is comfortably set at that point in the bar. But then only a few pages further on in the book, in Am Fenster, a similar thing might have been done but was not done - there are widowed eighth notes on several lines. It seems to me that breaking bars in vocal music has never been consistently practiced by any good publisher except for the publishers of well-made hymn books, who seem to have done it as a matter of course. If they ARE being consistent, then they must have run into more important reasons why NOT to break the bars, in those other songs; and I don't know what those reasons are. My understanding of the engraving process and its rules is sketchy at best. Actually, it's not uncommon for hymnal publishers NOT to give due consideration to the lyrics, well-made or not. I'm looking at one right now where the upbeat of a phrase is kept with the measure. I think the only relatively-consistent rule is not to break a word across two lines unless there's no way to avoid it (and I happened to turn right to a song that proved me wrong, imagine that). There was a hymnal published last year that *did* prioritize lyrics over music, to the point where it did a quantized version of LP's ragged-right for shorter lines (so that the lyric spacing doesn't become extreme). By quantized, I mean that there were about three or four system-widths that were used, depending on the natural spacing of the line (number of syllables). I've given examples from that book in previous posts. Of the hymnals I've seen, I consider it perhaps one of the best examples of setting, even above engraved hymnals (which often squeezed notes and lyrics in much tighter than they should have in order to save paper...not uncommon to be lucky just to get all the words on the same line as the notes, and forget about getting the words under the sung note). ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
I wouldn't want to enter this as a bug without any code illustrating the problem. -- Phil Holmes - Original Message - From: James Harkins To: lily-users Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:58 PM Subject: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system I ran into the attached spacing problem while typesetting a lead sheet. I can't make a minimal example right this second; will try in the next couple of days. When a tied note has a lyric syllable, LP (2.16.1) left aligns the syllable to the note, on the assumption that tied-to note column will occupy horizontal space and give the syllable space to extend to the right of the note under which it appears. Makes sense -- that's a good refinement. However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. I searched the bug tracker but didn't see anything relevant. Thanks, hjh -- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
I have reproduced the behavior that James described.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Helge
\version 2.16.0
sopranoVoice = \relative c' {
\repeat unfold 24 { r4 }
r4 f f8 g4 f8 ~ | f1
\repeat unfold 24 { r4 }
}
verse = \lyricmode {
in Ter -- re Haute.
}
\score {
\new Staff { \sopranoVoice }
\addlyrics { \verse }
}
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
James Harkins-2 wrote I ran into the attached spacing problem while typesetting a lead sheet. I can't make a minimal example right this second; will try in the next couple of days. When a tied note has a lyric syllable, LP (2.16.1) left aligns the syllable to the note, on the assumption that tied-to note column will occupy horizontal space and give the syllable space to extend to the right of the note under which it appears. Makes sense -- that's a good refinement. However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. see http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page#text-aligning-syllables-with-melisma By default, lyrics syllables that start a melisma are left aligned on their note. The alignment can be altered using the lyricMelismaAlignment property. hth Eluze -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Maybe-bug-Lyrics-on-a-tied-note-at-end-of-system-tp148734p148747.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
Eluze eluzew at gmail.com writes: However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. see http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page#text-aligning- syllables-with-melisma By default, lyrics syllables that start a melisma are left aligned on their note. The alignment can be altered using the lyricMelismaAlignment property. In other words, if you want the left-alignment in the middle of a system, where it makes sense, but you don't want this at the ends of systems, then you have to do a lot of overrides, but only for notes at system ends, and then hope that Lilypond doesn't change the system breaks on you. That sounds like the kind of manual intervention you'd have to do in Finale, which we boast shouldn't be necessary in Lilypond. I'd still call it a bug. Sure, the feature is working as designed, but the design made a mistake by not considering system breaks. hjh ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
- Original Message - From: James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system Eluze eluzew at gmail.com writes: However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. see http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/snippets-big-page#text-aligning- syllables-with-melisma By default, lyrics syllables that start a melisma are left aligned on their note. The alignment can be altered using the lyricMelismaAlignment property. In other words, if you want the left-alignment in the middle of a system, where it makes sense, but you don't want this at the ends of systems, then you have to do a lot of overrides, but only for notes at system ends, and then hope that Lilypond doesn't change the system breaks on you. That sounds like the kind of manual intervention you'd have to do in Finale, which we boast shouldn't be necessary in Lilypond. I'd still call it a bug. Sure, the feature is working as designed, but the design made a mistake by not considering system breaks. hjh I strongly believe LilyPond sets this correctly. Left alignment is correct, and therefore the note spacing will vary. Singers expect this. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com writes: I ran into the attached spacing problem while typesetting a lead sheet. I can't make a minimal example right this second; will try in the next couple of days. When a tied note has a lyric syllable, LP (2.16.1) left aligns the syllable to the note, on the assumption that tied-to note column will occupy horizontal space and give the syllable space to extend to the right of the note under which it appears. Makes sense -- that's a good refinement. However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. I searched the bug tracker but didn't see anything relevant. I may be a philistine, but to me it looks ideal the way it is in the jpg file. What improvement do you mean to make? -- David R ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
James Harkins-2 wrote Eluze eluzew at gmail.com writes: By default, lyrics syllables that start a melisma are left aligned on their note. The alignment can be altered using the lyricMelismaAlignment property. In other words, if you want the left-alignment in the middle of a system, where it makes sense, but you don't want this at the ends of systems, then you have to do a lot of overrides, well - that's actually 1 override, and the layout is not going to change much if you're changing left/right/center-aligning, the length of the final note of a system being calculated using the duration of the last note and the length of the lyric text … I'd still call it a bug. Sure, the feature is working as designed, but the design made a mistake by not considering system breaks. that's your opinion - maybe it's as Phil stated in his answer: singers expect the lyric text to start with the note and do not follow other/foreign aesthetic styles Eluze -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Maybe-bug-Lyrics-on-a-tied-note-at-end-of-system-tp148734p148766.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
David Rogers wrote Sunday, August 04, 2013 10:14 PM James Harkins jamshar...@gmail.com writes: I ran into the attached spacing problem while typesetting a lead sheet. I can't make a minimal example right this second; will try in the next couple of days. When a tied note has a lyric syllable, LP (2.16.1) left aligns the syllable to the note, on the assumption that tied-to note column will occupy horizontal space and give the syllable space to extend to the right of the note under which it appears. Makes sense -- that's a good refinement. However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. I searched the bug tracker but didn't see anything relevant. I may be a philistine, but to me it looks ideal the way it is in the jpg file. What improvement do you mean to make? Me too. As a singer it looks exactly what I would expect. That's the way all vocal music is laid out - with syllables left-aligned on tied and slurred notes, wherever they appear. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Maybe bug? Lyrics on a tied note at end of system
I ran into the attached spacing problem while typesetting a lead sheet. I can't make a minimal example right this second; will try in the next couple of days. When a tied note has a lyric syllable, LP (2.16.1) left aligns the syllable to the note, on the assumption that tied-to note column will occupy horizontal space and give the syllable space to extend to the right of the note under which it appears. Makes sense -- that's a good refinement. However, the same thing happens at the end of a system, forcing the note column far to the left of where I would expect it to appear. I searched the bug tracker but didn't see anything relevant. Thanks, hjh attachment: lyric-tie-system-end.jpg___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
