Re: Piano, voices and stem directions
[Off topic] Urs Liska-3 wrote > The sustain pedal of a real (grand) piano is nothing like the > MIDI pedal of the same name, but much closer to the MIDI volume pedal > ;-) To spare the honour of MIDI, half-damper pedals do exist and they act as a continuous controller. Whether the sound engine used (resp. the sound) can handle it or not is a different story... Urs Liska-3 wrote > The exact pedal position is a function of the imagined sound, the > characteristic of the instrument and the acoustics of the room. And it > is (should be) only partially controlled consciously, mostly it is a > subconscious feeback loop between the ears and the muscles. > […] … and, in my opinion, the sustain pedal is one of the most underrated elements of the piano, it deserves much more attention than it often gets, at least in non-professional environments. The subtleties of tastefully dosed damping are an essential part of piano playing. Urs Liska-3 wrote > I recall that for example Claudio Arrau went to great length arguing that > the distribution of hands is a means of expression and that even if > (well, actually *because*) it imposes additional demands on the player > it should be faithfully executed. I found this to be a very interesting > thought, although I didn't adopt it personally. A very interesting thought, indeed, I think this also depends on the music to a certain extent and it is one of the great obstacles and a reason why one needs a good teacher when learning the piano: On the one hand (pun!), people are different and should pick the fingering/hand distribution that suits them best. On the other hand, for the learning, everything new feels awkward it needs a lot of practice to get used to it and you must not duck away from the effort. So, probably, mostly in educational drills/études, one had better stick to the instructions, but later, in real life, there is no reason why experienced pianists should not do it the way it works best for them. Even the greatest pianists/composers of all time could not always feel their way into other people, and even the greatest pianists often do things unconsciously (due to talent or genius) without being able to pass it on to their disciples. :) All the best, Torsten -- Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Piano, voices and stem directions
Hi Torsten, thanks for your comprehensive answer which makes perfectly sense to me. From a player’s perspective, I found it interesting to see the 'voices' alternating, when I transcribed the no. 5 of the same opus, and to make the subtle hints more prominent by using colors (sometimes I reused existing voices): http://joramberger.de/files/rach-prelude23-05-colors.pdf Best, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Piano, voices and stem directions
Noeck wrote > Probably, that also means that using separate voices is the appropriate > syntax, isn’t it? Can I make the slur aware of other voices’ notes? Hi Joram, Sometimes, decisions whether to use separate voices, temporary parallel contexts, etc., are often more of a technical nature (coding-wise). But in this case, at least that's my personal opinion, I think we have to distinguish between the musical idea/content (the "illusion" created by the pianist) and how one can actually play all this with only two hands (and the sustain pedal). I'd see the musical line (the semiquavers, even with a phrasing slur) as one voice and therefore code it as one voice. The stem directions, to me, are mere hints for the player (very valuable hints, though). Rachmaninov managed to incorporate the intended rapid transitions between the two hands without having to clutter the music with m.g./m.d. remarks (main gauche/left hand, main droite/right hand) and he even hints about pedaling without clumsy \sustainOn/Off symbols. Pedaling is very delicate there, anyway, sometimes one might even use half-pedaling (not just on/off). Just using \stemUp and \stemDown seems appropriate to me, because it's one single voice (just being divided up into two hands for physiological reasons) and the dynamics stay where they are, it's easier to start and end phrasing slurs, … And, last but not least: these "encrypted playing instructions" are, just like fingerings in general, not carved in stone and hardly justify a strict separation of voices. Just look at the last two down-stemmed semiquavers in the measure: Some (most?) play them using the right hand, even if their stems are down. Later on, I'd still use a single voice that changes staves. A single voice for "the line" seems most natural to me. But opinions may differ, of course. All the best, Torsten -- Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Piano, voices and stem directions
Thanks, Torsten, for confirming that. Probably, that also means that using separate voices is the appropriate syntax, isn’t it? Can I make the slur aware of other voices’ notes? Best, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Piano, voices and stem directions
Hi Joram, This is all about the transitions between both hands: the downstem notes are to be played by the left hand. HTH, Torsten -- Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Piano, voices and stem directions
Dear all,
I am trying to transcribe a prelude for piano by Rachmaninoff (Op. 23,
No. 7). A (not so) minimal example is appended below.
The left hand is always the same like in the lowest staff group.
It is not directly part of the question but might hint at some
left-hand/right-hand switches.
I have two questions:
1) What is the reason for the stem directions of the first 4 and last 2
16th notes?
The source shows a notations like (D). Why not like (A)?
This pattern goes on for several measures (but not strictly, e.g. in
measure 9). Is it about which hand plays the notes? Or just that the
slur has a nicer/rounder shape?
2) How to do this best in LilyPond?
(B) is done with all 16th notes in one voice, stem directions are
altered explicitly. The slur is collision-free but not perfect.
(C) is done by switching voices as the stems indicate. No manual stem
directions are needed. The slur collides with the other voice.
(D) fixes the slur with \shape.
Thanks in advance,
Joram
% -- the code ---
\version "2.19.80"
vi = \relative {
\key c \minor
\voiceOne
c'16\p^( es fis g as16\< g fis g \!
es'\> d c g\! as g fis16 g) |
}
vii = \relative {
\voiceTwo
s4 s4 es'' s8 s|
}
\new Staff = "upper" <<
\tempo "(A) Why not like this?"
\new Voice \vi
\new Voice \vii
>>
vi = \relative {
\key c \minor
\voiceOne
\stemDown
c'16\p^( es fis g \stemUp as16\< g fis g \!
es'\> d c g\! as[ g] \stemDown fis16 g) | \stemNeutral
}
vii = \relative {
\voiceTwo
s4 s4 es'' s8 s|
}
\new Staff = "upper" <<
\tempo "(B) 16th notes in one voice (with stemUp/Down)"
\new Voice \vi
\new Voice \vii
>>
vi = \relative {
\key c \minor
\voiceOne
s4 as'16\< g fis g \! es'\> d c g\! as[ g] s8 |
}
vii = \relative {
\voiceTwo
c'16\p^( es fis g s4 es' s8 fis,16 g) |
}
viii = \relative {
\clef bass
\key c \minor
r2 c,^>^\sf ~ 1
}
\new Staff = "upper" <<
\tempo "(C) 16th notes in voices following stem directions"
\new Voice \vi
\new Voice \vii
>>
vii = \relative {
\voiceTwo
\shape #'((0 . 1.5) (5 . 3) (-3 . 3) (0 . 1.0)) Slur
c'16\p^( es fis g s4 es' s8 fis,16 g) |
}
\new PianoStaff <<
\new Staff = "upper" <<
\tempo "(D) 16th following stem directions + \shape"
\new Voice \vi
\new Voice \vii
>>
\new Staff \viii
>>
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