RE: Re: Parallel Square Premusic
Michael, and everyone else that is interested, I have begun a thread on musicnotation.org's forum to discuss my format in a more relevant place, complete with links to documentation. My apologies for any disruption the earlier discussion may have caused. - Original Message - Subject: Re: Parallel Square Premusic From: "Michael Gerdau" Date: 3/22/17 4:42 pm To: have@anti.capital > In what file format, with what program, should I write this description? > Is there something you can link me to to emulate? You would write that as a simple text file or a document in any text processor as you see fit. Use plain ASCII and the editor of your choice or Word or LibreOffice or whatever you like (anything else along that line). The precise format is of little to no concern. The content is. It should be in such a way that other people, e.g. someone like me, would be able to - translate any given file using your format into sheet music - translate any given sheet music into your format Preferably both translations should be unambigous. Such a description is sometimes called a grammar (of the underlying language) or a language specification (depending on the exact scope) and sometimes you need both. It is hard to tell with the knowledge I currently have about your stuff. Kind regards, Michael -- Michael Gerdau email: m...@qata.de GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Re: Parallel Square Premusic
You want whitespace in your parallel squares? Don't you think that's akin to demanding a hexadecimal file include space in between each digit? Wouldn't it be smarter to delegate the spacing task to programs optimized for a square environment, as hex editors are optimized for a hexadecimal environment, yet leave the output file alone? You're essentially asking me to multiply the filesize by 3/2 so that you can entertain this notion that G5G5G5 is somehow more difficult to register as a series of letter note names followed by their octave number in scientific pitch than is G5 G5 G5. There will never be a letter in the second column or a number in the first. Why is this so complicated? Please tell me what you want to encode so I can tell you how the immensely powerful Parallel Squares' format can do it. Like everyone else who's tried to break it. "Semantics" isn't enough. - Original Message - Subject: Re: Parallel Square Premusic From: "Carl Sorensen" Date: 3/22/17 6:43 pm To: "have@anti.capital" , "Ralph Palmer" Cc: "lilypond-user@gnu.org" On 3/22/17 10:57 AM, "have@anti.capital" wrote: >What's hard to follow? Please, critique my format verbosely. When you see > >[]rh --dadada||daaa||--dadada||daaa > >Are you unable to discern from the 'rh' or my instructions that this is >the rhythm line, or do you not know how to read aloud "dadada daaa"? >Or, having read it aloud, are you not able to understand the inherent >correlation between the length of a printed word and the time delegated >to its pronunciation? Having understood it, are you not able to see the >usefulness of a formalization of the length of a "daaa" as corresponding >to the length of its note? Personally, I don't *want* to have the rhythm separated from the pitch. One of the great benefits for sheet music is that the rhythm and the pitch are connected. And for me, LilyPond input also has that same benefit. > >When you see > >[]pi E5E5F5G5||G5F5E5D5||C5C5D5E5||E5D5D5-- > >Are you unable to discern from the 'pi' that this is a pitch line, or are >you unable to recognize the use of scientific pitch notation, or do you >refuse to acknowledge its existence, or refuse to understand it? > >Are you not able to understand that a G5 and a da on top of each other >correspond to the same point of music? I'm able to discern it, but I find it very hard to parse the squares. They run into one another. There is no whitespace in your format. Whitespace is key to being able to easily parse content for my eyes; maybe not so much for yours. Finally, the main thing I find missing in your format is that it is very poor at encoding semantics. It's just a plaintext rendering of a very static music layout. I'm a strong believer in semantic input. I prefer LaTeX to Word (or Open Office) because it does a better job of explicitly supporting semantic (rather than graphic) markup. Certainly one can use styles in OpenOffice to carry semantic markup, but it's not visually obvious that this is being done. Your plaintext format provides no visual cues to the semantic markup, in my opinion. Perhaps the world will judge Parallel Square Premusic to be the best possible text encoding of music. But even if it does, I will not be using Parallel Square Premusic. I prefer LilyPond "Premusic", as it speaks much better to me. Good luck in your endeavor. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Re: Parallel Square Premusic
You're very wrong. I have considered all of those things. My Parallel Square
format is perfectly vertically extensible. The examples already given show off
the most important part of the premusic, but it is with little imagination that
everything you mention is accounted for.
(begin crescendo end)
[]dy pp--p---mp--mf--ff--<<--<<
[]tm 108 102 116
I'm not sure how the octave of a pitch is ambiguous?? Scientific pitch notation
is pretty well defined...
Please explain what you mean by 'markup'?
I don't see any particularly compelling reason to demand inclusion of artifacts
of sheet music such as the grouping of beams, when a rendering program could
easily determine the most typical grouping. But the Parallel Squares format is
extremely powerful and perfectly extensible, and all those things can still be
accounted for if needed.
Unless you think we'll run out of square characters?
It is a new project and I want to discuss it with people before afterthoughts
such as these are decided upon. The framework is solid, and like it or not,
this will proceed to become the plaintext music format.
- Original Message -
Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
From: "Flaming Hakama by Elaine"
Date: 3/21/17 6:47 pm
To: "Lilypond-User Mailing List"
My general observation on this "premusic" concept is that it is an attempt
to abstract some aspects of musical content (namely, pitch name, rhythm and
lyrics), and ignoring others (like dynamics, tempo, even the octave of the
pitch is ambiguous in your "perfect" system, as well as tempo, markup, etc.),
without any consideration of how to actually notate it.
Even if this format were useful for someone to input or edit the incomplete
musical information it models, in order to actually engrave a piece of sheet
music, you would have to have another layer on top to contain all of that
information: grouping for beams, the orientation of slurs and articulations,
barlines, how staves are grouped into staff groups, etc.
I hope that what you take away from this discussion includes:
o You have not fully considered what is required to define music even in an
abstract way, so your design is not useful for people who are trying to
process, manage or manipulate musical content.
o You have not at all considered what information is required to define
sheet music (which goes beyond the abstract musical representation), so your
design is not useful for people who are trying to produce sheet music.
o Your proposed file format--even assuming that we don't care about all the
ways in which the problem it claims to solve is not even considered, let alone
solved--is not convenient: it is difficult to view, to read and to manage.
Best of luck,
David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954 "Confusion is
highly underrated"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
No, yes, this is actually what some people are upset about, apparently.
Somebody somewhere wrote music in pi-time, and somehow all the conceivable
musical notations that can't very nicely deal with that are bad? Give me a
break.
- Original Message -
Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
From: "Bernardo Barros"
Date: 3/21/17 2:27 pm
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Why one calls them 'irrationals'? they are rational number ratios just
as any ordinary notation, unless you're referring to a tuplet of π (pi)
or log2 3...
They look difficult because we put them in a special "difficult" place.
Unlike Carnatic musicians, who just learn rationals and "irrationals"
as two categories of the same things since the beginning. Stop that.
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Thanks for letting me know about ASCIIDoc. That's VERY analogous to what I'm
trying to do - though mine is a much more complicated task. My solution,
Parallel Squares, is obviously up to the challenge! It does not need to be the
king of fast readability. It is sufficiently readable to become the king of
encoding premusic in a computer.
But, I'm a little confused here... Isn't this the Lilypond chatroom? Doesn't
Lilypond look like this:
\version "2.14.1"
\include "english.ly"
\score {
\new Staff {
\key d \major
\numericTimeSignature
\time 2/4
16 8.
%% Here: the tie on the D's looks funny
%% Too tall? Left-hand endpoint is not aligned with the B tie?
~
8 [ ]
}
}
Because that looks to have a verbosity more like your LaTeX accusation than
does this:
[]pi --G4G4G4||e4
[]rh
RE: Re: Parallel Square Premusic
Well, I have never begun a project like this before and am a little intimidated by the potential it has in the field of music. I have furthermore noticed that a similarly structured parallel square format could entirely separately revolutionize the International Phonetic Alphabet, by rendering all phonemes available with a single square stroke of the keyboard, and postulate that there are almost certainly other uses of this format. I look forward to having a text editor that is optimized for parallel square content, but even as it is, it's fairly quick and to compose music in this extremely robust format with programs that exist. I don't seek to detract from Lilypond at any point, it will always have its place, but I think there is undoubtedly much potential in my .txt to your .docx, if you will, and I was wondering if anyone in this mailing list would be open to discussing and working with me on it? I don't even really know where to get started haha... Not an endorsement, but Richard Stallman told me that an Emacs mode would be a wise step. What else? I'm very certain that Parallel Squares will revolutionize the field of music notation. There simply has never been anything like it. Viral Anticapital http://anti.capital - Original Message - Subject: Re: Parallel Square Premusic From: "Andrew Bernard" Date: 3/20/17 9:34 am To: "lilypond-user Mailinglist" Hello Vac, Welcome to the lilypond community. What are you asking us? Andrew ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
