Re: on marketing
On Tue, 2013-12-10 at 15:53 -0500, Carl Peterson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Richard Shann > wrote: > > > only some people are interested in "everything", many want > just their > own bits of interest. > Denemo is customizable to a great extent, all menus and > palettes can be > modified; most users will not do so, but it would be possible > to create > specialized versions of Denemo for many different areas of > interest. > > Richard > > > Agreed. But consider this. One of the things that the Adobe Creative > Suite programs have is customizable workspaces. They have a number of > workflow-specific workspaces (for print production or typography, > etc.), but then they also have workspaces that emulate other Creative > Suite programs so that you can work in one program similarly to > another. For instance, when I use Adobe Illustrator, I can use the > "Like Photoshop" workspace if I'm familiar with that program, or "Like > InDesign" if I'm familiar with it. The workspaces aren't 100% > identical, since each has its own set of tools, but it makes it easier > to use. The workspace customization includes menu options, toolbars > and palettes (and perhaps a couple of other things I can't think of > offhand). > > > Similarly, you could offer the user a "Like Finale" or "Like Sibelius" > or "Like MuseScore" environment. While not identical, a similar logic > to how those palettes/toolbars are constructed could be applied to > ease the learning curve. This would not require specialized > "versions," per se, so much as preconfigured preferences, perhaps? I introduced a "profiles" feature a while back but it is currently disabled because it requires people familiar with each environment to actively update each profile as the program develops; the one of particular interest to the LilyPond users on this list is one that means that the typing of note-names and durations mimics \relative mode in a LilyPond editor (with the advantage that you immediately see if you have gone into the wrong octave, whereon you press , or ' to correct). The palettes (which are new to Denemo) are entirely customizable by the user - position, order of elements, aspect ratio, icon, tooltip and even the command it runs can tweaked by the user to have a different behavior. So providing "look-alike" palettes would be entirely possible. Having said that, I imagine a vast amount of stuff in those programs is just not needed when using Denemo/LilyPond because the typesetting is done for you. If you *do* need to tweak the typesetting then I think the departure from familiarity is inevitable at present (is Schicker's List heading in the direction of visually manipulating LilyPond's grobs?). Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
On Tue, 2013-12-10 at 21:06 -0800, SoundsFromSound wrote: > not having a ton of windows open on launch every time, > would really make Denemo Please report a bug if it happens every time, even though you closed them and quit the program cleanly. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
Carl Peterson-2 wrote > On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Richard Shann < > richard@.plus > >wrote: > >> >> only some people are interested in "everything", many want just their >> own bits of interest. >> Denemo is customizable to a great extent, all menus and palettes can be >> modified; most users will not do so, but it would be possible to create >> specialized versions of Denemo for many different areas of interest. >> >> Richard >> > > Agreed. But consider this. One of the things that the Adobe Creative Suite > programs have is customizable workspaces. They have a number of > workflow-specific workspaces (for print production or typography, etc.), > but then they also have workspaces that emulate other Creative Suite > programs so that you can work in one program similarly to another. For > instance, when I use Adobe Illustrator, I can use the "Like Photoshop" > workspace if I'm familiar with that program, or "Like InDesign" if I'm > familiar with it. The workspaces aren't 100% identical, since each has its > own set of tools, but it makes it easier to use. The workspace > customization includes menu options, toolbars and palettes (and perhaps a > couple of other things I can't think of offhand). > > Similarly, you could offer the user a "Like Finale" or "Like Sibelius" or > "Like MuseScore" environment. While not identical, a similar logic to how > those palettes/toolbars are constructed could be applied to ease the > learning curve. This would not require specialized "versions," per se, so > much as preconfigured preferences, perhaps? > > Carl > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@ > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Carl: Having the option of different environments would be a very nice feature, I like that aspect of the Adobe family software especially. I think that feature, along with not having a ton of windows open on launch every time, would really make Denemo an even more viable option, as far as choosing an engraving application for newcomers. Maybe? Just an idea. - composer | sound designer LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/on-marketing-tp155303p155560.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Richard Shann wrote: > > only some people are interested in "everything", many want just their > own bits of interest. > Denemo is customizable to a great extent, all menus and palettes can be > modified; most users will not do so, but it would be possible to create > specialized versions of Denemo for many different areas of interest. > > Richard > Agreed. But consider this. One of the things that the Adobe Creative Suite programs have is customizable workspaces. They have a number of workflow-specific workspaces (for print production or typography, etc.), but then they also have workspaces that emulate other Creative Suite programs so that you can work in one program similarly to another. For instance, when I use Adobe Illustrator, I can use the "Like Photoshop" workspace if I'm familiar with that program, or "Like InDesign" if I'm familiar with it. The workspaces aren't 100% identical, since each has its own set of tools, but it makes it easier to use. The workspace customization includes menu options, toolbars and palettes (and perhaps a couple of other things I can't think of offhand). Similarly, you could offer the user a "Like Finale" or "Like Sibelius" or "Like MuseScore" environment. While not identical, a similar logic to how those palettes/toolbars are constructed could be applied to ease the learning curve. This would not require specialized "versions," per se, so much as preconfigured preferences, perhaps? Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 13:40 -0500, Carl Peterson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Richard Shann > wrote: > On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 18:11 +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling > wrote: [...] > > > > I use MuseScore for quick and dirty composition work...I'm not trying > to make it "pretty," I'm just trying to get it on a page and be able > to directly manipulate it. I've done that with Finale when I've had > some version of it installed on my computer. I can do that with > MuseScore. I tried a couple of times to do it with Denemo and really > didn't have a good experience. Part of it is the very menu-centric > approach (too cluttered), Well, up to now, the menus were there mainly to allow the user to find out what the keyboard shortcuts were - even things like move the cursor right have menu entries so that you can find out that right arrow does this. (In that case you could guess, but move to measure right? ... staff down ...) Now we have palettes too, so those that want to click buttons can, and search facilities for finding commands and short cuts. But there is still a way to go. > but in general, it just wasn't intuitive to me as a GUI. MuseScore > does well enough for what I do with it. I think that initial > experience with Denemo can be very overwhelming, particularly if we're > talking about someone coming from a Finale-like experience. I've used > Finale and a broad selection of other music tools (both composition > and production), and Denemo was just...different. MuseScore is > different from Finale, but it's alike enough to be a much shallower > learning curve. yes, I can imagine. > > > To bring us back to Marketing, it's well and good to talk about all > the things that LilyPond or Denemo or Frescobaldi can do that Finale > and/or Sibelius can't. However, if we're looking at convincing people > to switch from Finale and/or Sibelius to the LilyPond sphere of > influence, we have to be able to show them that everything only some people are interested in "everything", many want just their own bits of interest. Denemo is customizable to a great extent, all menus and palettes can be modified; most users will not do so, but it would be possible to create specialized versions of Denemo for many different areas of interest. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Richard Shann wrote: > On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 18:11 +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: > > On 07/12/13 18:07, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > > > Beethoven's 104 Piano Sonatas > > > > That would be 32 :-) But 104 separate movements in total ... > > Is that because MuseScore cannot handle scores with several movements, I > wonder. Contrast that with a LilyPond score with multiple movements, > appendices, table of contents ... I generated a few scores with all that > via Denemo a while back. But still people carry on using MuseScore. > > Richard > Richard, I use MuseScore for quick and dirty composition work...I'm not trying to make it "pretty," I'm just trying to get it on a page and be able to directly manipulate it. I've done that with Finale when I've had some version of it installed on my computer. I can do that with MuseScore. I tried a couple of times to do it with Denemo and really didn't have a good experience. Part of it is the very menu-centric approach (too cluttered), but in general, it just wasn't intuitive to me as a GUI. MuseScore does well enough for what I do with it. I think that initial experience with Denemo can be very overwhelming, particularly if we're talking about someone coming from a Finale-like experience. I've used Finale and a broad selection of other music tools (both composition and production), and Denemo was just...different. MuseScore is different from Finale, but it's alike enough to be a much shallower learning curve. To bring us back to Marketing, it's well and good to talk about all the things that LilyPond or Denemo or Frescobaldi can do that Finale and/or Sibelius can't. However, if we're looking at convincing people to switch from Finale and/or Sibelius to the LilyPond sphere of influence, we have to be able to show them that everything Finale can do, LilyPond can do, and can do as well, if not better. Urs put together a good example of this when he demonstrated the ease of constructing the rhythm patterns from the theory book. But admittedly, that's a high-level/obscure case that a lot of people, frankly, won't see as being applicable to their use case. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: on marketing
> -Original Message- > From: Joseph Rushton Wakeling [mailto:joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net] > Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 12:12 PM > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > Subject: Re: on marketing > > On 07/12/13 18:07, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > > Beethoven's 104 Piano Sonatas > > That would be 32 :-) But 104 separate movements in total ... Including two from the sonata for four hands op. 6. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
Richard Shann writes: > On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 18:11 +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: >> On 07/12/13 18:07, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: >> > Beethoven's 104 Piano Sonatas >> >> That would be 32 :-) But 104 separate movements in total ... > > Is that because MuseScore cannot handle scores with several movements, I > wonder. Contrast that with a LilyPond score with multiple movements, > appendices, table of contents ... I generated a few scores with all that > via Denemo a while back. But still people carry on using MuseScore. See title. Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 18:11 +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: > On 07/12/13 18:07, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > > Beethoven's 104 Piano Sonatas > > That would be 32 :-) But 104 separate movements in total ... Is that because MuseScore cannot handle scores with several movements, I wonder. Contrast that with a LilyPond score with multiple movements, appendices, table of contents ... I generated a few scores with all that via Denemo a while back. But still people carry on using MuseScore. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: on marketing
On 07/12/13 18:07, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: Beethoven's 104 Piano Sonatas That would be 32 :-) But 104 separate movements in total ... ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
