Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
> On Mar 16, 2016, at 12:35 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> I have my doubts about the importance of this feature.
>
> One of my recent large-forces arrangements included 8 independent horn
> parts,

"horn1" = { ... }

\"horn1"

already works and keeps the stuff in different variables.

Of course, so does \horn-I \horn-II ... \horn-VIII

Unless you are iterating through your horns programmatically, the new
possibilities don't appear to offer an advantage.

> Even without considering the [very powerful] possibilities of
> programmatically generating variables with this feature, I have ZERO
> doubts about its importance in allowing Lilypond to more deftly handle
> large scores.

Sure.  I just don't see a significant increase in deftliness here.  It's
more of a "while we are at it, we might as well" feature.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

tisimst  writes:

> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Kieren MacMillan [via Lilypond] <
> ml-node+s1069038n188615...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> > violin.2 = { c d }
>> > will work, as will \violin.2 (as of issue 4797) or \violin.#(+ 1 1)
>>
>> Wow! That’s wonderful news.
>> Thanks, as always, for your excellent work on improving Lilypond.
>
>
> +1 (x10)!
>
> I don't think I'll ever use the #(+ 1 1) form to auto-generate part
> variables, but that's cool, nonetheless. Absolutely fantastic, David! Does
> this work too (just trying to understand the limitations of this syntax):
>
> violin.#(+ 1 1) = { c d }
>
> or just when the variable is called, like you mentioned?

This will work as well.  As will

violin.I = { c d }
violin.II = { e f }

which is sort of equivalent to

violin = #`((II . ,#{ e f #}) (I . ,#{ c d #}))

Whether your dotted lists are symbolic or numeric, they will create
alists which are consequently less efficient to access than separate
variables as you would do when writing violin_I and violin_II .  I'm
still fuzzy about schemes allowing to optionally use arrays or hash
tables rather than alists.

This is definitely one area where "language design" is easier to do when
using Lua rather than Scheme, with its "there is only one data
structure, the table" principle.


-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> violin.2 = { c d }
> will work, as will \violin.2 (as of issue 4797) or \violin.#(+ 1 1)

Wow! That’s wonderful news.
Thanks, as always, for your excellent work on improving Lilypond.

Regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Thomas Morley]

2016-03-17 0:02 GMT+01:00 Simon Albrecht :
> On 16.03.2016 23:46, Thomas Morley wrote:

>> Why use TrillSpanner at all, with the need to tweak it more heavily
>> than the Glissando?
>
>
> Because it _is_ a trill, not a glissando?



Is it a trill?

The initial mail wrote:
"I am trying to create a zig-zagged line after a note head, [...]"
Nothing else.

I have to admit I would be surprised if it would really be a Glissando,..
Though using Glissando to print a line from one to the next NoteHead
is the most easy build-in function we have.
So suggested it.

Btw, checkout
http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/42775/move-a-trill-into-the-stave
-About 'scrape', which is what the zigzag-or-trill-line should
represent. One could argue for glissando and trill, I'd say
-Someone else suggested there to use Glissando/RhythmicStaff as well

No idea, why people don't stick to our mailing-lists, though

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Mike Solomon]

> On 16 Mar 2016, at 13:38, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Simon Albrecht  writes:
> 
>> On 16.03.2016 11:42, Mike Solomon wrote:
>>> \once \override TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text = ##f % this is 
>>> how
>> 
>> IIUC this syntax is being disallowed at the moment and 2.20 will only
>> allow the (very convenient) dot-separated list syntax
>> \once\override TrillSpanner bound-details.left.text = ##f
> 
> All of the following will likely remain allowed for 2.20:
> 
> \once \override TrillSpanner.bound-details.left.text = ##f
> % recommended form as of 2.18 as it is simplest
> 
> \once \override TrillSpanner #'(bound-details left text) = ##f
> % recommended form as of 2.12, complementing the corresponding \revert
> % but rarely actually used.  Its non-use encouraged a lot
> % of non-working code in the manner of
> % \revert TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text
> 
> \once \override TrillSpanner bound-details.left.text = ##f
> % completely equivalent form using dotted list syntax.  Why bother?
> 
> A number of other more obscure variants will work equally well.  But the
> version written by Mike is slated to go.
> 

Ah, cool, good to know - I have a style sheet that dates from the Stone Age 
that I haven’t done convert-ly on.  I’ll run it now!
~Mike


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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

Mike Solomon  writes:

>> On 16 Mar 2016, at 13:38, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> 
>> Simon Albrecht  writes:
>> 
>>> On 16.03.2016 11:42, Mike Solomon wrote:
 \once \override TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text = ##f %
 this is how
>>> 
>>> IIUC this syntax is being disallowed at the moment and 2.20 will only
>>> allow the (very convenient) dot-separated list syntax
>>> \once\override TrillSpanner bound-details.left.text = ##f
>> 
>> All of the following will likely remain allowed for 2.20:
>> 
>> \once \override TrillSpanner.bound-details.left.text = ##f
>> % recommended form as of 2.18 as it is simplest

[...]

>> A number of other more obscure variants will work equally well.  But the
>> version written by Mike is slated to go.
>> 
>
> Ah, cool, good to know - I have a style sheet that dates from the
> Stone Age that I haven’t done convert-ly on.  I’ll run it now!

The cool things are not as much about what will stop working but rather
the rationale for that.

Issue 4800, the patch stopping the first form from working, is not
technically necessary (and will likely be committed at a later point of
time as the issues inspiring it).

Its main motivation was to keep

violin2 = { c d }

flagging an error even with issue 4798 since \violin2 would still
not work.  But

violin.2 = { c d }

will work, as will \violin.2 (as of issue 4797) or \violin.#(+ 1 1)

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

>"horn1" = { ... }
>\"horn1"
> already works

I toyed with that, but was/am not a big fan of the quotes.

> and keeps the stuff in different variables.

Hmmm… Maybe I’m misunderstanding. I thought this new feature would allow one to 
write

horn.1 = { c d }
horn.2 = { e f }
…
horn.8 = { c’ d’ }

and then access them like

<<
  \new Staff \horn.1
  \new Staff \horn.2
>>

Did I misunderstand?

> so does \horn-I \horn-II ... \horn-VIII

That’s what I have ended up doing in my scores to date… but names like that 
neither sort pleasingly, nor parse readily into my eyes and brain. I was/am 
hoping for a cleaner solution, and thought this feature was one.

Cheers,
Kieren.

p.s. Having now done a number of large-forces scores, if the new feature really 
doesn’t offer me any advantage(s), I'll probably switch to using the “quoted 
numbered names" solution: it requires fewer keystrokes overall, and the names 
are more human- [or at least Kieren-] readable.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi George,

If you don’t necessarily want the actual trill glyph, but a zig-zag as you say, 
with fine control over the squiggle parameters, you could use the relatively 
new markup \draw-squiggle-line. See Section A.11.3 Graphic in the NR (for 
version 2.19.38, and I think going back a bit earlier).

Andrew


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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[tisimst]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Kieren MacMillan [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n188615...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> > violin.2 = { c d }
> > will work, as will \violin.2 (as of issue 4797) or \violin.#(+ 1 1)
>
> Wow! That’s wonderful news.
> Thanks, as always, for your excellent work on improving Lilypond.


+1 (x10)!

I don't think I'll ever use the #(+ 1 1) form to auto-generate part
variables, but that's cool, nonetheless. Absolutely fantastic, David! Does
this work too (just trying to understand the limitations of this syntax):

violin.#(+ 1 1) = { c d }

or just when the variable is called, like you mentioned?

- Abraham




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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

Simon Albrecht  writes:

> On 16.03.2016 11:42, Mike Solomon wrote:
>> \once \override TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text = ##f % this is 
>> how
>
> IIUC this syntax is being disallowed at the moment and 2.20 will only
> allow the (very convenient) dot-separated list syntax
> \once\override TrillSpanner bound-details.left.text = ##f

All of the following will likely remain allowed for 2.20:

\once \override TrillSpanner.bound-details.left.text = ##f
% recommended form as of 2.18 as it is simplest

\once \override TrillSpanner #'(bound-details left text) = ##f
% recommended form as of 2.12, complementing the corresponding \revert
% but rarely actually used.  Its non-use encouraged a lot
% of non-working code in the manner of
% \revert TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text

\once \override TrillSpanner bound-details.left.text = ##f
% completely equivalent form using dotted list syntax.  Why bother?

A number of other more obscure variants will work equally well.  But the
version written by Mike is slated to go.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Simon Albrecht]

On 16.03.2016 12:15, Thomas Morley wrote:

How about using RhythmicStaff and glissando?


Why? I don’t see need to use such tricks here.

Best, Simon

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>>"horn1" = { ... }
>>\"horn1"
>> already works
>
> I toyed with that, but was/am not a big fan of the quotes.
>
>> and keeps the stuff in different variables.
>
> Hmmm… Maybe I’m misunderstanding. I thought this new feature would allow one 
> to write
>
> horn.1 = { c d }
> horn.2 = { e f }
> …
> horn.8 = { c’ d’ }
>
> and then access them like
>
> <<
>   \new Staff \horn.1
>   \new Staff \horn.2
> >>
>
> Did I misunderstand?

No.  But it clumps everything together in one alist named \horn .  If
you want to access this from Scheme, you cannot write #horn.1 but need
to use #(assoc-ref horn 1) instead.  That's different from \"horn1" and
\horn-I which map to #horn1 and #horn-I respectively.

For writing a loop, \horn.1 may be nicer.

> I was/am hoping for a cleaner solution, and thought this feature was
> one.

It's not a naming feature but a data structuring feature.  It's easy to
ignore that difference, however, and for quite a few use cases the
resulting cost will be negligible.  assoc-ref running through an alist
of 100 elements is still going to be much cheaper than typesetting even
a single note.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello,

Not sure if I missed it, but will:

\relative {
  c'
  -\tweak style #'trill
  \startTextSpan
  d e f
  \stopTextSpan

  \textSpannerDown
  c'
  -\tweak style #'trill
  \startTextSpan
  d e f
  \stopTextSpan
}

still work in the future?

JM

> Le 17 mars 2016 à 00:35, David Kastrup  a écrit :
> 
> Thomas Morley  writes:
> 
>> Btw, checkout
>> http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/42775/move-a-trill-into-the-stave
>> -About 'scrape', which is what the zigzag-or-trill-line should
>> represent. One could argue for glissando and trill, I'd say
>> -Someone else suggested there to use Glissando/RhythmicStaff as well
>> 
>> No idea, why people don't stick to our mailing-lists, though
> 
> Well, you don't get visible reputation and badges here.  Also arguably
> past answers are easier to search for on StackExchange.  And you don't
> expose a mail address to the world.  Also people like web interfaces.
> 
> StackExchange is not likely to go away.  I don't really think that the
> LilyPond questions/answers on it reach critical mass though.
> 
> -- 
> David Kastrup
> 
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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Thomas Morley]

2016-03-16 12:17 GMT+01:00 Simon Albrecht :
> On 16.03.2016 12:15, Thomas Morley wrote:
>>
>> How about using RhythmicStaff and glissando?
>
>
> Why? I don’t see need to use such tricks here.
>
> Best, Simon

I don't see any tricks in my code, just simplifying things.

Why use DrumStaff, while all "pitches" should be printed on a single line?
Why use TrillSpanner at all, with the need to tweak it more heavily
than the Glissando?


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

Thomas Morley  writes:

> Btw, checkout
> http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/42775/move-a-trill-into-the-stave
> -About 'scrape', which is what the zigzag-or-trill-line should
> represent. One could argue for glissando and trill, I'd say
> -Someone else suggested there to use Glissando/RhythmicStaff as well
>
> No idea, why people don't stick to our mailing-lists, though

Well, you don't get visible reputation and badges here.  Also arguably
past answers are easier to search for on StackExchange.  And you don't
expose a mail address to the world.  Also people like web interfaces.

StackExchange is not likely to go away.  I don't really think that the
LilyPond questions/answers on it reach critical mass though.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

On Mar 16, 2016, at 12:35 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> I have my doubts about the importance of this feature.

One of my recent large-forces arrangements included 8 independent horn parts, 
12 independent trombone parts, and several other multi-divisi instrumental 
setups.

Even without considering the [very powerful] possibilities of programmatically 
generating variables with this feature, I have ZERO doubts about its importance 
in allowing Lilypond to more deftly handle large scores.

Thanks again,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> violin.2 = { c d }
>> will work, as will \violin.2 (as of issue 4797) or \violin.#(+ 1 1)
>
> Wow! That’s wonderful news.

I have my doubts about the importance of this feature.

Actually this was more prompted as lead-up work for tackling the
"Needs_design" of issue 4745.


I'm still fuzzy about the final details but feel that stuff is getting
closer.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Simon Albrecht]

On 16.03.2016 23:46, Thomas Morley wrote:

2016-03-16 12:17 GMT+01:00 Simon Albrecht :

On 16.03.2016 12:15, Thomas Morley wrote:

How about using RhythmicStaff and glissando?


Why? I don’t see need to use such tricks here.

Best, Simon

I don't see any tricks in my code, just simplifying things.

Why use DrumStaff, while all "pitches" should be printed on a single line?


OK, point taken.


Why use TrillSpanner at all, with the need to tweak it more heavily
than the Glissando?


Because it _is_ a trill, not a glissando?

Best, Simon

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Thomas Morley]

2016-03-16 11:21 GMT+01:00 George :
> If you'd like a detailed explanation
> of my problem you can have a look
> at the question I posted here:
> http://bit.ly/1WpUjqA
>
> I am trying to create a zig-zagged line after a note head,
> currently I am using this code:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
> \new DrumStaff \with {
>   instrumentName = #"Güiro "
>   shortInstrumentName = #"Guir. "
> }
> {
>   \stopStaff
>   \override Staff.StaffSymbol.line-count = #1
>   \startStaff
>   \override NoteHead.style = #'cross
>   r4 c4\startTrillSpan e8\stopTrillSpan c8 c4 |
> }
>
> but this creates a trill line above the note
> (I'd like it to appear on the stave) with 'tr' written before it
> (I'd like the zig-zag line to appear directly
> after the note head, with no extra text,
> just the line.)
>
> How can I accomplish this?
>
> Thank you very much for your swift response,
> George
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How about using RhythmicStaff and glissando?

\version "2.18.2"

\new RhythmicStaff \with {
  instrumentName = #"Güiro "
  shortInstrumentName = #"Guir. "
  \consists "Clef_engraver"
  \override Glissando.springs-and-rods = #ly:spanner::set-spacing-rods
  \override Glissando.style = #'trill
  \override NoteHead.style = #'cross
}
{
  \clef percussion
  r4 c4-\tweak minimum-length #6 \glissando e8 c8 c4 |
}


HTH,
  Harm

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Simon Albrecht]

On 16.03.2016 11:42, Mike Solomon wrote:

\once \override TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text = ##f % this is how


IIUC this syntax is being disallowed at the moment and 2.20 will only 
allow the (very convenient) dot-separated list syntax

\once\override TrillSpanner bound-details.left.text = ##f

Best, Simon

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Simon Albrecht]

Hi George,

On 16.03.2016 11:21, George wrote:

this creates a trill line above the note
(I'd like it to appear on the stave) with 'tr' written before it
(I'd like the zig-zag line to appear directly
after the note head, with no extra text,
just the line.)

How can I accomplish this?


Have a look at the following:

%%
\version "2.18.2"
myStartTrillSpan =
-\tweak bound-details.left.text ##f % no text
-\tweak outside-staff-priority ##f % inside staff
-\tweak Y-offset 0 % v-center
-\tweak bound-details.left.padding 1 % add padding to the left and right
-\tweak bound-details.right.padding 1
-\tweak minimum-length 5 % minimum length – requires the following line
-\tweak springs-and-rods #ly:spanner::set-spacing-rods
\startTrillSpan

\new DrumStaff \with {
  instrumentName = #"Güiro"
  shortInstrumentName = #"Guir."
  \override StaffSymbol.line-count = 1
  \override NoteHead.style = #'cross
}
{
  r4 c4\myStartTrillSpan e8\stopTrillSpan c8 c4 |
}


I made some more suggestions for simplifying the code: e.g. by further 
exploiting use of the \with{} block, and deleting the trailing spaces in 
(short)instrumentName.


Best, Simon

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Re: HELP: Trill line without 'tr' written before it

[Mike Solomon]

> On 16 Mar 2016, at 11:21, George  wrote:
> 
> 
> (I'd like the zig-zag line to appear directly
> after the note head, with no extra text, 
> just the line.)

\version "2.18.2"
\new DrumStaff \with {
 instrumentName = #"Güiro "
 shortInstrumentName = #"Guir. "
}
{
 \stopStaff
 \override Staff.StaffSymbol.line-count = #1
 \startStaff
 \override NoteHead.style = #'cross
 r4
\once \override TrillSpanner #'bound-details #'left #'text = ##f % this is how
c4\startTrillSpan e8\stopTrillSpan c8 c4 |
}

Cheers,
MS
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