Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[Jacques Menu]

Hello David,

Thanks for the link. Python is not my line though, I use plain C++ for my tools.

JM


> You can of course take a more circuitous route with MusicXML as an
> intermediary.  For MusicXML to MEI there exist packages like this:
> https://github.com/gburlet/musicxml-mei-conversion 
> 
> 
> David

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[David Nalesnik]

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:17 AM Urs Liska  wrote:
>
> Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:09 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
> > Hello folks,
> >
> > MEI has been mentionned at the Salzburg conference as more and more
> > used in the academic circles.
> >
> > Jan-Peter said that an MEI to Lily translator would be useful, and
> > RISM’s Laurent Pugin presented Verovio (
> > https://www.verovio.org/index.xhtml), which features an XSL/XSLT such
> > translator named MEIler (MEI Lilypond Engraving Refinement,
> > https://github.com/rettinghaus/meiler).
> >
>
> MEIler is independent from Verovio, and developed by Klaus Rettinghaus
> privately.
>
> > My questions are: do you feel the need for a MEI to LilyPond
> > translator, and has anyone experience with MEIler?
>
> a)
> There is a *strong* need for a reliable and fast translator from MEI to
> LilyPond (and vice versa) to make LilyPond an acceptable tool in the
> digital edition community.

You can of course take a more circuitous route with MusicXML as an
intermediary.  For MusicXML to MEI there exist packages like this:
https://github.com/gburlet/musicxml-mei-conversion

David

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[David Nalesnik]

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 7:04 AM Urs Liska  wrote:
>
> Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 07:03 -0600 schrieb David Nalesnik:
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:17 AM Urs Liska 
> > wrote:
> > > Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:09 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
> > > > Hello folks,
> > > >
> > > > MEI has been mentionned at the Salzburg conference as more and
> > > > more
> > > > used in the academic circles.
> > > >
> > > > Jan-Peter said that an MEI to Lily translator would be useful,
> > > > and
> > > > RISM’s Laurent Pugin presented Verovio (
> > > > https://www.verovio.org/index.xhtml), which features an XSL/XSLT
> > > > such
> > > > translator named MEIler (MEI Lilypond Engraving Refinement,
> > > > https://github.com/rettinghaus/meiler).
> > > >
> > >
> > > MEIler is independent from Verovio, and developed by Klaus
> > > Rettinghaus
> > > privately.
> > >
> > > > My questions are: do you feel the need for a MEI to LilyPond
> > > > translator, and has anyone experience with MEIler?
> > >
> > > a)
> > > There is a *strong* need for a reliable and fast translator from
> > > MEI to
> > > LilyPond (and vice versa) to make LilyPond an acceptable tool in
> > > the
> > > digital edition community.
> >
> > You can of course take a more circuitous route with MusicXML as an
> > intermediary.  For MusicXML to MEI there exist packages like this:
> > https://github.com/gburlet/musicxml-mei-conversion
>
> But the issue right now is *from* MEI *to* LilyPond.
>
> Urs
>

Should have written "MEI to MusicXML to LilyPond".  Of course, just a
temporary step.  (And, BTW, that package I linked to is bi-directional
but looks horribly out-of-date...)

David

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[Urs Liska]

Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 07:03 -0600 schrieb David Nalesnik:
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:17 AM Urs Liska 
> wrote:
> > Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:09 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
> > > Hello folks,
> > > 
> > > MEI has been mentionned at the Salzburg conference as more and
> > > more
> > > used in the academic circles.
> > > 
> > > Jan-Peter said that an MEI to Lily translator would be useful,
> > > and
> > > RISM’s Laurent Pugin presented Verovio (
> > > https://www.verovio.org/index.xhtml), which features an XSL/XSLT
> > > such
> > > translator named MEIler (MEI Lilypond Engraving Refinement,
> > > https://github.com/rettinghaus/meiler).
> > > 
> > 
> > MEIler is independent from Verovio, and developed by Klaus
> > Rettinghaus
> > privately.
> > 
> > > My questions are: do you feel the need for a MEI to LilyPond
> > > translator, and has anyone experience with MEIler?
> > 
> > a)
> > There is a *strong* need for a reliable and fast translator from
> > MEI to
> > LilyPond (and vice versa) to make LilyPond an acceptable tool in
> > the
> > digital edition community.
> 
> You can of course take a more circuitous route with MusicXML as an
> intermediary.  For MusicXML to MEI there exist packages like this:
> https://github.com/gburlet/musicxml-mei-conversion

But the issue right now is *from* MEI *to* LilyPond.

Urs

> 
> David

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[Jacques Menu]

Thanks Urs!

> Le 21 janv. 2020 à 10:25, Urs Liska  a écrit :
> 
> Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:21 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
>> Hello Urs,
>> 
>> Thanks for correcting me as to the relationship between MEIler and
>> Verovio.
>> 
>> In what respect is Verovio superior to Lily, 
> 
> It provides live rendering with automatic reflow and engraving inside a
> browser window, and it is blazingly fast at it. LilyPond will probably
> never achieve that kind of usability in an interactive setting.
> This comes at the inherent cost of making much cheaper design
> decisions. Verovio is astonishingly good at that, but I'd argue it will
> never get to LilyPond's level of automatic engraving quality.
> 
> That's why I've been lobbying for having both Verovio and LilyPond as
> two coequal rendering channels for MEI documents.
> 
>> and what do you mean by 'not really scalable’? 
> 
> For every little feature that one wants supported one has to *add* to
> the set of conversion rules. This makes it harder to maintain than
> necessary, and it will probably make it even slower if it should
> approach comprehensiveness.
> 
> Urs
> 

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[Urs Liska]

Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:21 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
> Hello Urs,
> 
> Thanks for correcting me as to the relationship between MEIler and
> Verovio.
> 
> In what respect is Verovio superior to Lily, 

It provides live rendering with automatic reflow and engraving inside a
browser window, and it is blazingly fast at it. LilyPond will probably
never achieve that kind of usability in an interactive setting.
This comes at the inherent cost of making much cheaper design
decisions. Verovio is astonishingly good at that, but I'd argue it will
never get to LilyPond's level of automatic engraving quality.

That's why I've been lobbying for having both Verovio and LilyPond as
two coequal rendering channels for MEI documents.

> and what do you mean by 'not really scalable’? 

For every little feature that one wants supported one has to *add* to
the set of conversion rules. This makes it harder to maintain than
necessary, and it will probably make it even slower if it should
approach comprehensiveness.

Urs

> 
> JM
> 
> > Le 21 janv. 2020 à 10:16, Urs Liska  a écrit
> > :
> > 
> > Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:09 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
> > > Hello folks,
> > > 
> > > MEI has been mentionned at the Salzburg conference as more and
> > > more
> > > used in the academic circles. 
> > > 
> > > Jan-Peter said that an MEI to Lily translator would be useful,
> > > and
> > > RISM’s Laurent Pugin presented Verovio (
> > > https://www.verovio.org/index.xhtml), which features an XSL/XSLT
> > > such
> > > translator named MEIler (MEI Lilypond Engraving Refinement, 
> > > https://github.com/rettinghaus/meiler).
> > > 
> > 
> > MEIler is independent from Verovio, and developed by Klaus
> > Rettinghaus
> > privately.
> > 
> > > My questions are: do you feel the need for a MEI to LilyPond
> > > translator, and has anyone experience with MEIler?
> > 
> > a)
> > There is a *strong* need for a reliable and fast translator from
> > MEI to
> > LilyPond (and vice versa) to make LilyPond an acceptable tool in
> > the
> > digital edition community.
> > Currently Verovio is the community's darling, and while it is
> > superior
> > to LilyPond in one respect (and an important one for that
> > community) it
> > is succinctly inferior in another respect. Currently the tendency
> > in
> > the MEI community seems to be to accept this inferiority and be
> > sort-of 
> > happy with incomplete and suboptimal engraving, just like society
> > accepted awful matrix printers for the first DTP possibilities.
> > 
> > b)
> > I once did a larger project with it, and I'd say that while it is a
> > surprisingly good tool it is not a "real" solution to the problem:
> > it's
> > too slow and not really scalable.
> > 
> > Urs
> > 
> > > Thanks for your help!
> > > 
> > > JM
> > > 
> > > 

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[Jacques Menu]

Hello Urs,

Thanks for correcting me as to the relationship between MEIler and Verovio.

In what respect is Verovio superior to Lily, and what do you mean by 'not 
really scalable’? 

JM

> Le 21 janv. 2020 à 10:16, Urs Liska  a écrit :
> 
> Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:09 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
>> Hello folks,
>> 
>> MEI has been mentionned at the Salzburg conference as more and more
>> used in the academic circles. 
>> 
>> Jan-Peter said that an MEI to Lily translator would be useful, and
>> RISM’s Laurent Pugin presented Verovio (
>> https://www.verovio.org/index.xhtml), which features an XSL/XSLT such
>> translator named MEIler (MEI Lilypond Engraving Refinement, 
>> https://github.com/rettinghaus/meiler).
>> 
> 
> MEIler is independent from Verovio, and developed by Klaus Rettinghaus
> privately.
> 
>> My questions are: do you feel the need for a MEI to LilyPond
>> translator, and has anyone experience with MEIler?
> 
> a)
> There is a *strong* need for a reliable and fast translator from MEI to
> LilyPond (and vice versa) to make LilyPond an acceptable tool in the
> digital edition community.
> Currently Verovio is the community's darling, and while it is superior
> to LilyPond in one respect (and an important one for that community) it
> is succinctly inferior in another respect. Currently the tendency in
> the MEI community seems to be to accept this inferiority and be sort-of 
> happy with incomplete and suboptimal engraving, just like society
> accepted awful matrix printers for the first DTP possibilities.
> 
> b)
> I once did a larger project with it, and I'd say that while it is a
> surprisingly good tool it is not a "real" solution to the problem: it's
> too slow and not really scalable.
> 
> Urs
> 
>> 
>> Thanks for your help!
>> 
>> JM
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: MEI to LilyPond conversion

[Urs Liska]

Am Dienstag, den 21.01.2020, 10:09 +0100 schrieb Jacques Menu:
> Hello folks,
> 
> MEI has been mentionned at the Salzburg conference as more and more
> used in the academic circles. 
> 
> Jan-Peter said that an MEI to Lily translator would be useful, and
> RISM’s Laurent Pugin presented Verovio (
> https://www.verovio.org/index.xhtml), which features an XSL/XSLT such
> translator named MEIler (MEI Lilypond Engraving Refinement, 
> https://github.com/rettinghaus/meiler).
> 

MEIler is independent from Verovio, and developed by Klaus Rettinghaus
privately.

> My questions are: do you feel the need for a MEI to LilyPond
> translator, and has anyone experience with MEIler?

a)
There is a *strong* need for a reliable and fast translator from MEI to
LilyPond (and vice versa) to make LilyPond an acceptable tool in the
digital edition community.
Currently Verovio is the community's darling, and while it is superior
to LilyPond in one respect (and an important one for that community) it
is succinctly inferior in another respect. Currently the tendency in
the MEI community seems to be to accept this inferiority and be sort-of 
happy with incomplete and suboptimal engraving, just like society
accepted awful matrix printers for the first DTP possibilities.

b)
I once did a larger project with it, and I'd say that while it is a
surprisingly good tool it is not a "real" solution to the problem: it's
too slow and not really scalable.

Urs

> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> JM
> 
>