Re: Photoscore

[karl]

David Kastrup:
> And indeed the externally attached drive (via USB) was named /dev/sda
> while the internal drive the Linux rescue environment booted from was
> /dev/sdb.  So this time round the root disk system not being able to
> mount stuff on /dev/sda* had more than one reason.
>
> But I was surprised that a USB-connected drive (even though connected at
> bootup time) was listed before the internal mSATA one.  Without checking
> via fdisk prior to starting the copy I would indeed have assumed the
> reverse.

The kernel seem to prefer random assignment of scsi devices, at least
they don't want a scheme like we was used to in the /dev/hda days,
where there was a direct connection between the device name (or rather
maj/min. numbers) and the bus/id.

I call it "automatically wrong".

Fix it by using
 older kernel
 not loading usb-storage at boot time
 usign some udev-scheme with uuid or something

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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+46 173 140 57



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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 09:37:21 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>> David Wright  writes:
>> 
>> > On Mon 28 Nov 2016 at 21:26:17 (+), Karlin High wrote:
>> >> On 11/28/2016 2:12 PM, David Wright wrote:
>> >> > So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
>> >> > partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
>> >> > (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR.
>> >> 
>> >> The thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup."
>> >
>> > That would certainly be the action to take if the drive was giving
>> > disk errors.
>> 
>> It's also the action to take if you are dealing with damage to the data
>> structures.
>
> That doesn't necessarily buy you any advantage in the case you
> outlined. There are risks in making bit for bit copies of a drive.
> For starters, you're _writing_ to a device, whereas attempting to
> mount the partitions readonly involves _no_ writing to any device.
>
> Only on the 18th, I read a post where a user was trying to make an
> image of a drive, and was relying on the order they plugged in the
> two drives to get the kernel to assign the "correct" /dev/sdX values
> to the two drives so that they could then follow some remotely
> posted instructions for making the copy. Talk about tail wagging dog!

Just as a P.S.: am in the mirroring stage now (my father acquired a new
somewhat larger SSD disk with some mSATA interface like his computer
uses internally (the kind of crap that exists these days...) and a
suitable USB adapter).

And indeed the externally attached drive (via USB) was named /dev/sda
while the internal drive the Linux rescue environment booted from was
/dev/sdb.  So this time round the root disk system not being able to
mount stuff on /dev/sda* had more than one reason.

But I was surprised that a USB-connected drive (even though connected at
bootup time) was listed before the internal mSATA one.  Without checking
via fdisk prior to starting the copy I would indeed have assumed the
reverse.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[David Wright]

On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 17:20:51 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 16:10:00 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> >> David Wright  writes:
> >> 
> >> > On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 09:37:21 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >> My father is living away several hours and is not technically savvy.
> >> >> The system boots into some sort of maintenance mode, so making a disk
> >> >> image via dd via phone instructions is going to be reasonably easy.  He
> >> >> can then send the image over by matter mail.
> >> >
> >> > The one thing I _wouldn't_ want to do is boot the system at all using
> >> > the drive under consideration. If you've lost control of your MBR,
> >> > then all bets are off as to which OS is going to boot and in what
> >> > circumstances. You risk yet more damage to the system.
> >> 
> >> It boots into some Linux maintenance shell since the boot process does
> >> not find its file systems for mounting.  The risk basically is that the
> >> system in this state has parts overwritten already.
> >
> > I suppose the good news is that it would appear windows did not make
> > itself the only system that could boot, one of the commonly used
> > tricks up its sleeve. Your earlier post gave me the impression that
> > windows now owned the machine.
> 
> Yeah, it's funny.  I am used to Windows taking over the boot but leaving
> the partitions in peace.  This time it's the other way round.
> 
> >> In short, quite a small target to hit.  It's unlikely that it got
> >> clobbered and still starts into a state appearing functional.
> >
> > So I assume that Grub loaded a linux kernel and an initramfs into
> > memory but that's about it. That gives you a very limited set of tools
> > for recovery and no documentation. A live CD would give you a lot
> > more.
> 
> Recovery over the phone?

Yes, that's what you said.

> Honestly, I am quite more confident dictating
> into a command line than with a graphical environment.

I don't follow. Why would you want to use a graphical environment? In
any case, most recovery tools that I would trust are CLI.

> Even though I am
> frequently annoyed how DECT or whatever codec make a hash of "f" vs "s".

Foxtrot, Sierra, etc will be useful, then.

> And frankly, an initramfs contains more than the kind of stuff I have
> brought Linux (and UNIX since my computing history goes way back before
> 1991) systems up with from floppies and/or QIC tape drives.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 16:10:00 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>> David Wright  writes:
>> 
>> > On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 09:37:21 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> My father is living away several hours and is not technically savvy.
>> >> The system boots into some sort of maintenance mode, so making a disk
>> >> image via dd via phone instructions is going to be reasonably easy.  He
>> >> can then send the image over by matter mail.
>> >
>> > The one thing I _wouldn't_ want to do is boot the system at all using
>> > the drive under consideration. If you've lost control of your MBR,
>> > then all bets are off as to which OS is going to boot and in what
>> > circumstances. You risk yet more damage to the system.
>> 
>> It boots into some Linux maintenance shell since the boot process does
>> not find its file systems for mounting.  The risk basically is that the
>> system in this state has parts overwritten already.
>
> I suppose the good news is that it would appear windows did not make
> itself the only system that could boot, one of the commonly used
> tricks up its sleeve. Your earlier post gave me the impression that
> windows now owned the machine.

Yeah, it's funny.  I am used to Windows taking over the boot but leaving
the partitions in peace.  This time it's the other way round.

>> In short, quite a small target to hit.  It's unlikely that it got
>> clobbered and still starts into a state appearing functional.
>
> So I assume that Grub loaded a linux kernel and an initramfs into
> memory but that's about it. That gives you a very limited set of tools
> for recovery and no documentation. A live CD would give you a lot
> more.

Recovery over the phone?  Honestly, I am quite more confident dictating
into a command line than with a graphical environment.  Even though I am
frequently annoyed how DECT or whatever codec make a hash of "f" vs "s".

And frankly, an initramfs contains more than the kind of stuff I have
brought Linux (and UNIX since my computing history goes way back before
1991) systems up with from floppies and/or QIC tape drives.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Karlin High]

Another issue: If there's any need to revert the computer to the prior 
version of Windows, there is limited time to do this. In the upgrade, 
Windows makes a backup of the prior version that eventually gets wiped out.

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/rollback-windows-10-after-30-days

With a drive image backup, the needed files for reversion can be 
restored to allow doing that beyond the time limit. So there are reasons 
for drive images beyond device failure - "Whatever it takes to get the 
computer back the way it was."

Further info on Parted Magic: it's a Linux live distro, apparently based 
on Gentoo. It includes lots of software for working with hard drives, 
including GParted and Gnu ddrescue.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Photoscore

[David Wright]

On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 16:10:00 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 09:37:21 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> >> 
> >> My father is living away several hours and is not technically savvy.
> >> The system boots into some sort of maintenance mode, so making a disk
> >> image via dd via phone instructions is going to be reasonably easy.  He
> >> can then send the image over by matter mail.
> >
> > The one thing I _wouldn't_ want to do is boot the system at all using
> > the drive under consideration. If you've lost control of your MBR,
> > then all bets are off as to which OS is going to boot and in what
> > circumstances. You risk yet more damage to the system.
> 
> It boots into some Linux maintenance shell since the boot process does
> not find its file systems for mounting.  The risk basically is that the
> system in this state has parts overwritten already.

I suppose the good news is that it would appear windows did not make
itself the only system that could boot, one of the commonly used
tricks up its sleeve. Your earlier post gave me the impression that
windows now owned the machine.

> Root or not, this is running in a memory protected environment.  My
> experience with hosed and crashing systems has been that it is quite
> unusual for trashed code to actually cause more damage than further
> crashes.
> 
> > If you maintain that the _only_ sensible course of action is: "The
> > thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup" (which is what
> > this post appears to be supporting), then you have got to boot from a
> > different drive or a device like a CD or stick in order to make an
> > unadulterated copy. "Some sort of maintenance mode" doesn't cut it.
> > (And I don't even know whether you mean a linux or a windows mode.)
> 
> Linux root disk prompt, before the root file system is swapped out for
> the real one.
> 
> In short, quite a small target to hit.  It's unlikely that it got
> clobbered and still starts into a state appearing functional.

So I assume that Grub loaded a linux kernel and an initramfs into
memory but that's about it. That gives you a very limited set of tools
for recovery and no documentation. A live CD would give you a lot more.

But good luck with the process. Hurrah for the POTS.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 09:37:21 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>> 
>> My father is living away several hours and is not technically savvy.
>> The system boots into some sort of maintenance mode, so making a disk
>> image via dd via phone instructions is going to be reasonably easy.  He
>> can then send the image over by matter mail.
>
> The one thing I _wouldn't_ want to do is boot the system at all using
> the drive under consideration. If you've lost control of your MBR,
> then all bets are off as to which OS is going to boot and in what
> circumstances. You risk yet more damage to the system.

It boots into some Linux maintenance shell since the boot process does
not find its file systems for mounting.  The risk basically is that the
system in this state has parts overwritten already.

Root or not, this is running in a memory protected environment.  My
experience with hosed and crashing systems has been that it is quite
unusual for trashed code to actually cause more damage than further
crashes.

> If you maintain that the _only_ sensible course of action is: "The
> thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup" (which is what
> this post appears to be supporting), then you have got to boot from a
> different drive or a device like a CD or stick in order to make an
> unadulterated copy. "Some sort of maintenance mode" doesn't cut it.
> (And I don't even know whether you mean a linux or a windows mode.)

Linux root disk prompt, before the root file system is swapped out for
the real one.

In short, quite a small target to hit.  It's unlikely that it got
clobbered and still starts into a state appearing functional.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[David Wright]

On Tue 29 Nov 2016 at 09:37:21 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Mon 28 Nov 2016 at 21:26:17 (+), Karlin High wrote:
> >> On 11/28/2016 2:12 PM, David Wright wrote:
> >> > So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
> >> > partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
> >> > (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR.
> >> 
> >> The thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup."
> >
> > That would certainly be the action to take if the drive was giving
> > disk errors.
> 
> It's also the action to take if you are dealing with damage to the data
> structures.

That doesn't necessarily buy you any advantage in the case you
outlined. There are risks in making bit for bit copies of a drive.
For starters, you're _writing_ to a device, whereas attempting to
mount the partitions readonly involves _no_ writing to any device.

Only on the 18th, I read a post where a user was trying to make an
image of a drive, and was relying on the order they plugged in the
two drives to get the kernel to assign the "correct" /dev/sdX values
to the two drives so that they could then follow some remotely
posted instructions for making the copy. Talk about tail wagging dog!

> > I don't know anything about these particular tools. I would use a tool
> > like GNU ddrescue works its way from good part of the disk to bad
> > parts, so maximising the amount of data recovered. It keeps a log file
> > of its actions so that the process can be interrupted. After all,
> > recovering a large, badly damaged disk can take a very long time.
> 
> We are not talking about hardware damage in this case.

Yes, that's why my next two sentences were "However, there's no
evidence that disk errors have been or will be a problem. This is just
a case of overwriting." The paragraph you _have_ quoted was in
response to the choice of Karlin High's tools, not to the specifics of
your problem.

> > Some or all of these actions can avoid the need to purchase another
> > drive of at least the same size, whose cost can be considerable, and,
> > after downloading a live CD onto a USB stick, could potentially set a
> > data owner's mind at rest after only a few minutes.
> 
> My father is living away several hours and is not technically savvy.
> The system boots into some sort of maintenance mode, so making a disk
> image via dd via phone instructions is going to be reasonably easy.  He
> can then send the image over by matter mail.

The one thing I _wouldn't_ want to do is boot the system at all using
the drive under consideration. If you've lost control of your MBR,
then all bets are off as to which OS is going to boot and in what
circumstances. You risk yet more damage to the system.

If you maintain that the _only_ sensible course of action is: "The
thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup" (which is what
this post appears to be supporting), then you have got to boot from a
different drive or a device like a CD or stick in order to make an
unadulterated copy. "Some sort of maintenance mode" doesn't cut it.
(And I don't even know whether you mean a linux or a windows mode.)

> > Of course, if you've got the cash, you can just hand the disk or
> > entire system to a data recovery agency that you trust, who will have
> > professionals to do the job. But many of us do not live in that world.
> 
> A few lucky ones have capable children though.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 29 Nov 2016 13:40, "Karlin High"  wrote:
>
> On 11/28/2016 12:22 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
> > I thought the Windows EULA protested against being subjected to a VM?
>
> Buy a Windows full-version retail license for the virtual machine and
> you should be good to go.
>
> Windows 10 EULA (2)(d)(iv):
> *Use in a virtualized environment.* This license allows you to install
> only one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that
> device is physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more
> than one virtual device, you must obtain a separate license for each
> instance.
>
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm
>
> And here's VMWare's take:
>
https://pubs.vmware.com/fusion-4/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.vmware.fusion.help.doc%2FGUID-50FC0AF1-AA0A-486D-89AB-4FA4C1CAA56C.html
> --
> Karlin High
> Missouri, USA

Of course there's nothing unreasonable about this; after all it is
commercial software, and most vendors wouldn't allow you unrestricted
copies.

Anyway, I think their licensing situation with regard to virtual machines
was changed some time ago. After all, with the cloud-hosted architecture
now the number of OS instances running "virtually" rather than on the bare
metal might be approaching a very large fraction...

C
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Re: Photoscore

[Karlin High]

On 11/28/2016 12:22 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
> I thought the Windows EULA protested against being subjected to a VM?

Buy a Windows full-version retail license for the virtual machine and 
you should be good to go.

Windows 10 EULA (2)(d)(iv):
*Use in a virtualized environment.* This license allows you to install 
only one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that 
device is physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more 
than one virtual device, you must obtain a separate license for each 
instance.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

And here's VMWare's take:
https://pubs.vmware.com/fusion-4/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.vmware.fusion.help.doc%2FGUID-50FC0AF1-AA0A-486D-89AB-4FA4C1CAA56C.html
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Mon 28 Nov 2016 at 21:26:17 (+), Karlin High wrote:
>> On 11/28/2016 2:12 PM, David Wright wrote:
>> > So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
>> > partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
>> > (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR.
>> 
>> The thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup."
>
> That would certainly be the action to take if the drive was giving
> disk errors.

It's also the action to take if you are dealing with damage to the data
structures.

> I don't know anything about these particular tools. I would use a tool
> like GNU ddrescue works its way from good part of the disk to bad
> parts, so maximising the amount of data recovered. It keeps a log file
> of its actions so that the process can be interrupted. After all,
> recovering a large, badly damaged disk can take a very long time.

We are not talking about hardware damage in this case.

> Some or all of these actions can avoid the need to purchase another
> drive of at least the same size, whose cost can be considerable, and,
> after downloading a live CD onto a USB stick, could potentially set a
> data owner's mind at rest after only a few minutes.

My father is living away several hours and is not technically savvy.
The system boots into some sort of maintenance mode, so making a disk
image via dd via phone instructions is going to be reasonably easy.  He
can then send the image over by matter mail.

> Of course, if you've got the cash, you can just hand the disk or
> entire system to a data recovery agency that you trust, who will have
> professionals to do the job. But many of us do not live in that world.

A few lucky ones have capable children though.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[David Wright]

On Mon 28 Nov 2016 at 21:26:17 (+), Karlin High wrote:
> On 11/28/2016 2:12 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
> > partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
> > (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR.
> 
> The thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup."

That would certainly be the action to take if the drive was giving
disk errors.

> RedoBackup, 
> Clonezilla, Acronis, Macrium - something the copies the entire hard 
> drive and allows restoring it all if something doesn't work out.

I don't know anything about these particular tools. I would use a tool
like GNU ddrescue works its way from good part of the disk to bad
parts, so maximising the amount of data recovered. It keeps a log file
of its actions so that the process can be interrupted. After all,
recovering a large, badly damaged disk can take a very long time.

However, there's no evidence that disk errors have been or will be a
problem. This is just a case of overwriting. And the post said "It is
quite unclear how much, if anything, will be salvageable from his
actual work environment. [...] it is not clear how much of the
original data will still be in there." So its entirely logical to boot
up a live linux CD and attempt to mount the partitions (readonly
naturally) to determine what is "salvageable".

If the partition type is all that has been altered, and not the
filesystem contents, then linux will mount the partition quite
happily. That would be worth knowing. If there's superblock damage,
then an unmounted partition can be fsck'd (checking that the
appropriate fsck honours the -n option, meaning readonly). If the
results are not too bad, then a copy of that partition can be fsck'd
with a repair option.

Some or all of these actions can avoid the need to purchase another
drive of at least the same size, whose cost can be considerable,
and, after downloading a live CD onto a USB stick, could potentially
set a data owner's mind at rest after only a few minutes.

Of course, if you've got the cash, you can just hand the disk or
entire system to a data recovery agency that you trust, who will have
professionals to do the job. But many of us do not live in that world.

> Then if you want to work on hard drive partitionas, I nominate this tool 
> - Parted Magic: https://partedmagic.com/

I don't know anything about this particular tool nor its relationship,
if any, to GParted or GNU Parted, nor why one of the documents on its
web page is headed Using GParted.

... But that does remind me to write that GNU ddrescue also suffers
from having other similarly named programs floating around which may
or may not be good.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Chris Yate  writes:

> On 28 Nov 2016 23:11, "David Kastrup"  wrote:
>>> >
>> > I don't keep up to date on this stuff, so I'm no authority.  All I know is
>> > that I used to load XP into a VM using parallels and did not ecnounter such
>> > a problem.
>>
>> You don't "encounter" licensing problems unless you actually read
>> through all of the license.
>>
>
> Ain't nobody got time for that!

That's probably the reason the "Windows 10 privacy agreement" takes
about 20 pages in print.

But then "no way would I agree to that" was already my reaction to the
Windows Vista EULA.  Different folks have different thresholds of pain.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Nov 2016 23:11, "David Kastrup"  wrote:
>> >
> > I don't keep up to date on this stuff, so I'm no authority.  All I know
is
> > that I used to load XP into a VM using parallels and did not ecnounter
such
> > a problem.
>
> You don't "encounter" licensing problems unless you actually read
> through all of the license.
>

Ain't nobody got time for that!
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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Flaming Hakama by Elaine  writes:

>> >> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
>> >> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Working in web development where we are still required to make sites work
>> > on various ancient combinations of Windows and IE, and therefore must
>> have
>> > multiple OSes running, the way this is done in a professional environment
>> > is to use virtual machines such as Parallels or VMware to run Windows.
>>
>> I thought the Windows EULA protested against being subjected to a VM?
>>
>
> I don't keep up to date on this stuff, so I'm no authority.  All I know is
> that I used to load XP into a VM using parallels and did not ecnounter such
> a problem.

You don't "encounter" licensing problems unless you actually read
through all of the license.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Noeck]

Hi,

Am 28.11.2016 um 20:51 schrieb Johan Vromans:
> Do they realise they are completely at the mercy of their software?

Vendor lock-in is an underrated problem, IMHO. In particular for small
companies. However, large companies (and some publishing houses might
get into that region but probably only few) are less affected: they pay
quite some amount for the licenses anyway and they are a major customer.
So they can ask for features, prolonged support as they can communicate
on equal terms (Augenhöhe). So yes, there is a strong dependency but in
both directions.
(At least that is the case for Windows/Skype/Office software in some
larger companies. And I guess both the company size and the market is
smaller in music publishing but the issue is comparable.)

Best,
Joram


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Re: Photoscore

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

> >> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
> >> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
> >>
> >
> > Working in web development where we are still required to make sites work
> > on various ancient combinations of Windows and IE, and therefore must
> have
> > multiple OSes running, the way this is done in a professional environment
> > is to use virtual machines such as Parallels or VMware to run Windows.
>
> I thought the Windows EULA protested against being subjected to a VM?
>

I don't keep up to date on this stuff, so I'm no authority.  All I know is
that I used to load XP into a VM using parallels and did not ecnounter such
a problem.  Not sure if the more recent OSes balk.

For the purposes I was discussing, which is the more limited usage of
testing IE, MS actually provides the VMs free of charge.
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/


David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Karlin High  writes:

> On 11/28/2016 3:16 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
>> There are enough sneaky Windows 10 update stories
>> with monthly "oh, you were annoyed?  Then we won't do it this way next
>> time" pseudo-excuses from Microsoft.  This is clearly not an accident.
>
> Which is why the Never10 utility exists for preventing that: 
> https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
>
> Anyway, Microsoft ended the free (or forced) upgrade program on July 29, 
> 2016. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3184143

That was just another lie.  Since then it has enrolled the Windows 10
attack in the recommended updates, no questions asked.

> So the only way it could be happening now is if a machine somehow got
> everything in place for the upgrade before that date, and couldn't
> manage to go through with it until now.

The reasons for Microsoft "offering" a "free" "upgrade" to a humongous
shitpile of spyware have not changed.  There was at most a cosmetic
pause in their attacks in order to lull people into a false sense of
security.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Nov 2016 21:13, "David Kastrup"  wrote:
>
>
> Depending on the importance of the data,

Well, that's the knub of it. The ideal situation is that everything you
can't afford to lose is stored off site - possibly multiple times. Github,
Bitbucket, or other means. I try my best... :)

That's easy for an IT professional to achieve, certainly a step too far for
most PC users.

Chris
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Re: Photoscore

[Karlin High]

On 11/28/2016 2:12 PM, David Wright wrote:
> So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
> partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
> (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR.

The thing to do IMMEDIATELY is make a "drive image backup." RedoBackup, 
Clonezilla, Acronis, Macrium - something the copies the entire hard 
drive and allows restoring it all if something doesn't work out.

Then if you want to work on hard drive partitionas, I nominate this tool 
- Parted Magic: https://partedmagic.com/
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Photoscore

[Karlin High]

On 11/28/2016 3:16 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
> There are enough sneaky Windows 10 update stories
> with monthly "oh, you were annoyed?  Then we won't do it this way next
> time" pseudo-excuses from Microsoft.  This is clearly not an accident.

Which is why the Never10 utility exists for preventing that: 
https://www.grc.com/never10.htm

Anyway, Microsoft ended the free (or forced) upgrade program on July 29, 
2016. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3184143
So the only way it could be happening now is if a machine somehow got 
everything in place for the upgrade before that date, and couldn't 
manage to go through with it until now.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans  writes:

> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:27:05 +0100, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
>> The point (and a partially understandable one) is that publishers don't
>> want to get prepress files but files they can edit in the future, even
>> if the original person is not available anymore.
>
> Basically they want program sources, and they only understand a single or
> very limited set of programming languages. Yes, this is partially
> understandable. Apparently, music publishing is a different beast than book
> publishing.
>
> Do they realise they are completely at the mercy of their software?
>
> A couple of weeks ago I had a 3D scan of my teeth and the dentist needed to
> reboot his Windows8 system into Windows/XP since the scanning software can
> not run on anything newer. Looking at the other part if this thread, he'd
> better not upgrade to Windows10 then.

He may not get asked.  There are enough sneaky Windows 10 update stories
with monthly "oh, you were annoyed?  Then we won't do it this way next
time" pseudo-excuses from Microsoft.  This is clearly not an accident.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> The most important thing in this situation is not to panic.
> It's quite possible that only two things have been altered:
> the Master Boot Record may have been overwritten, and the
> partition types may have been altered in the absence of any
> other changes, in particular to their contents.
>
> So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
> partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
> (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR. (Modify the latter
> if you have a EFI disk rather than MBR.)

I am an old hand at recovering data.  The first measure is to buy a hard
disk of the same size or larger, hook it up to USB, and make a 1:1 image
copy.

Anything else is complete madness.  You don't start any recovery action
with this kind of scenario without an image copy.

Depending on the importance of the data, you store away the original
drive in case data recovery services need to look deeper than the drive
electronics will deliver (with modern magnetization densities and SSD
drives, however, even special recovery hardware does not deliver a lot
beyond the first-layer data).

Once you have an image copy, you can work on that and see how far you
get.

> Note that Linux used to use the same GUID as a Microsoft Basic Data
> Partition so these could be relict, or set by MS as a convenient
> "bucket" value.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_basic_data_partition

That's somewhat helpful information.  However, the partition type list
(which I got via the phone) was delivered by Linux' fdisk so it should
know (the system was partitioned not more than 4 years ago I think).

And the total size of the "Microsoft Basic Data Partition"s (without the
obvious actual C:) does not amount to a full Linux system.  I hope that
Windows sacrificed / rather than /home .

That will be my Christmas vacation.  Thanks, Nadella.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Nov 2016 20:12, "David Wright"  wrote:
>
>
> The most important thing in this situation is not to panic.
> It's quite possible that only two things have been altered:
> the Master Boot Record may have been overwritten, and the
> partition types may have been altered in the absence of any
> other changes, in particular to their contents.
>
> So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
> partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
> (or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR. (Modify the latter
> if you have a EFI disk rather than MBR.)
>
> Note that Linux used to use the same GUID as a Microsoft Basic Data
> Partition so these could be relict, or set by MS as a convenient
> "bucket" value.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_basic_data_partition
>
> Cheers,
> David.

I'd suggest Supergrub. Great tool, and I've used it a number of times to
recover partition tables that I messed up. There's other options though...

Chris
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Re: Photoscore

[David Wright]

On Mon 28 Nov 2016 at 10:11:07 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:

> You mean, if it doesn't already own you.  My father is a retired
> professor of theoretical physics who is still publishing.  He received a
> final draft of such a paper back from a physics journal along with
> instructions to put any corrections into PDF annotations.  So I
> installed Okular for him.
> 
> Since the instructions were very detailed but only fit Acrobat Reader,
> he decided to use that after all and started up Windows.  Which decided
> to do a few updates.
> 
> The only partition on his computer that is now still a Linux partition
> is the swap partition.
> 
> Windows decided to update itself to Windows 10 (without asking back, of
> course) and decided to move all of Windows 8 into recovery partitions.
> Instead of partitioning off space from the existing Windows partition,
> it decided to rather junk all the Linux partitions and repurpose them.
> 
> This is why this is called the "Windows 10 anniversary edition": it's
> like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
> mistress and draping her on your bed.
> 
> It is quite unclear how much, if anything, will be salvageable from his
> actual work environment.
> 
> All of the Linux partitions are now "Windows recovery environment" or
> "Microsoft basic data" partitions and it is not clear how much of the
> original data will still be in there.
> 
> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
> 
> Microsoft is taking the last stand on the desktop and will go down with
> it.  Don't let it take out its despair on your property.

The most important thing in this situation is not to panic.
It's quite possible that only two things have been altered:
the Master Boot Record may have been overwritten, and the
partition types may have been altered in the absence of any
other changes, in particular to their contents.

So it should be worth booting from a live linux CD to mount the
partitions to check their contents, and to reinstall Grub
(or whatever you use to boot) into the MBR. (Modify the latter
if you have a EFI disk rather than MBR.)

Note that Linux used to use the same GUID as a Microsoft Basic Data
Partition so these could be relict, or set by MS as a convenient
"bucket" value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_basic_data_partition

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Photoscore

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:27:05 +0100, Urs Liska  wrote:

> The point (and a partially understandable one) is that publishers don't
> want to get prepress files but files they can edit in the future, even
> if the original person is not available anymore.

Basically they want program sources, and they only understand a single or
very limited set of programming languages. Yes, this is partially
understandable. Apparently, music publishing is a different beast than book
publishing.

Do they realise they are completely at the mercy of their software?

A couple of weeks ago I had a 3D scan of my teeth and the dentist needed to
reboot his Windows8 system into Windows/XP since the scanning software can
not run on anything newer. Looking at the other part if this thread, he'd
better not upgrade to Windows10 then.

-- Johan

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Flaming Hakama by Elaine  writes:

>> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
>> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
>>
>
> Working in web development where we are still required to make sites work
> on various ancient combinations of Windows and IE, and therefore must have
> multiple OSes running, the way this is done in a professional environment
> is to use virtual machines such as Parallels or VMware to run Windows.

I thought the Windows EULA protested against being subjected to a VM?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
>

Working in web development where we are still required to make sites work
on various ancient combinations of Windows and IE, and therefore must have
multiple OSes running, the way this is done in a professional environment
is to use virtual machines such as Parallels or VMware to run Windows.


HTH,

David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Photoscore

[Gerdau, Michael]

> > For what reason do they still insist on tools and not on results?
> >
> 
> The argument I've heard from my commercial publisher is that they need to
> be able to edit the files later, such as in the case of
> scholarly/definitive editions where the state of research regarding the
> "true" version of a piece might change. I made my contact there the exact
> same offer: I could serve up a PDF that would meet all of their standards,
> and they flatly refused on this reason.

That argument seems valid.

What I still don't understand is why they refuse to use LP outright in the first
place.
We all agree that the results are at least as good as with Finale or Sibelius.
I'd expect we also agree that the effort required to achieve that is less.
My personal learning curve w/r to lilypond was not steeper than that for Finale
or Sibelius.

Why don't publisher employ personal capable of using lilpond, when they
apparently are willing to invest in both Finale and Sibelius?
FWIW at least I'm faster with lilypond than I ever was with either of Finale or
Sibelius. And restructuring as well as reusing stuff is MUCH easier as well.
Does anybody have an answer?


The above is an honest question. I'd expect using lilypond would save money and
thus I don't understand it.


Kind regards,
Michael
--
Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Nov 2016 16:13, "Johan Vromans"  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 00:48:59 +0100, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
> > The big houses more or less *exclusively* use Sibelius and Finale in
> > parallel, with a very low share still using SCORE and an actually tiny
> > share using Amadeus.
> >
> > Breitkopf just last year decided to quit any diversity and to move
> > everything to Sibelius.
>
> For what reason do they still insist on tools and not on results?
>

I am certain this is because they often want to edit for house style etc.
I've seen this mentioned on contracts for arranging etc, and it's quite
understandable to me. If you were copywriting for a newspaper, you wouldn't
send them a PDF and expect them to retype/scan it in.

On the other hand, it's virtually mandated for me at work that we don't
send technical documents out in anything other than PDF. There's many good
reasons for this, including not leaving tracked changes in there, but most
importantly it's very portable.

Chris
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Re: Photoscore

[Urs Liska]

Am 28.11.2016 um 17:12 schrieb Johan Vromans:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 00:48:59 +0100, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
>> The big houses more or less *exclusively* use Sibelius and Finale in
>> parallel, with a very low share still using SCORE and an actually tiny
>> share using Amadeus.
>>
>> Breitkopf just last year decided to quit any diversity and to move
>> everything to Sibelius.
> For what reason do they still insist on tools and not on results?
>
> I've been in a similar situation with a great US publisher who insisted on
> receiving materials in some proprietary format (later they switched to an
> even worse XML format). I showed them that I could provide camera-ready
> printfiles (PostScript, later PDF) that matched every inch of their
> standards. And I kept my part of the deal by delivering on time. As a
> bonus, I got a slightly higher percentage of the revenues since they only
> thing they had to do was to hit the print button.
>
> I've had more experiences like this with other publishers.
>
> For LilyPond this would mean: Can we produce printfiles that look like they
> are generated from their favourite tools (but better, of course).

The point (and a partially understandable one) is that publishers don't
want to get prepress files but files they can edit in the future, even
if the original person is not available anymore. So a company has its
staff or its number of contractors they know, and they will need to work
with them. Even some open-mindedness given (which is not that
impossible) it's fair to assume that they can't be sure to have
sufficient manpower and support available when "you" aren't available
anymore.

Urs

> -- Johan
>
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Re: Photoscore

[N. Andrew Walsh]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Johan Vromans  wrote:

>
> For what reason do they still insist on tools and not on results?
>

The argument I've heard from my commercial publisher is that they need to
be able to edit the files later, such as in the case of
scholarly/definitive editions where the state of research regarding the
"true" version of a piece might change. I made my contact there the exact
same offer: I could serve up a PDF that would meet all of their standards,
and they flatly refused on this reason.

And to answer your other questions: I would never configure Lily to look
like Sibelius, because Sibelius' output, even under the best circumstances,
still looks terrible to me.

Cheers,

A
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Re: Photoscore

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 00:48:59 +0100, Urs Liska  wrote:

> The big houses more or less *exclusively* use Sibelius and Finale in
> parallel, with a very low share still using SCORE and an actually tiny
> share using Amadeus.
> 
> Breitkopf just last year decided to quit any diversity and to move
> everything to Sibelius.

For what reason do they still insist on tools and not on results?

I've been in a similar situation with a great US publisher who insisted on
receiving materials in some proprietary format (later they switched to an
even worse XML format). I showed them that I could provide camera-ready
printfiles (PostScript, later PDF) that matched every inch of their
standards. And I kept my part of the deal by delivering on time. As a
bonus, I got a slightly higher percentage of the revenues since they only
thing they had to do was to hit the print button.

I've had more experiences like this with other publishers.

For LilyPond this would mean: Can we produce printfiles that look like they
are generated from their favourite tools (but better, of course).

-- Johan

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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Chris Yate  writes:

> It's terrible that you've had that experience, I've not heard of that
> happening - although I dual boot at home

Google for

Linux partition windows anniversary

or something like that.  My father's plight is by no means unusual.  And
then decide whether you'd rather want to put Windows and Linux on
separate disks (with the Linux disk physically inaccessible while using
Windows).

> P.S.
> "it's like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
> mistress and draping her on your bed"
>
> I laughed out loud :)

Yet.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[N. Andrew Walsh]

There's hope for your wife! My elderly mother had a side job pre-retirement
setting up computer systems for small businesses (like, server plus maybe a
dozen workstations), and through me got into Linux. Now she rolls Linux
Mint, and got my dad -- who first thought my installation of OpenOffice on
his Windows machine was "Linux" -- onto Ubuntu. Now neither one of them
will ever look back.

To address the argument at hand: how one negotiates with commercial
publishers on submitting jobs is outside the scope of the questions
surrounding how Lily might be improved to export to whatever format they
insist on, and the resolution of that issue depends more on matters of
ethics and philosophy than technical matters of toolchain management. I've
done plenty of work, for example, for commercial (text) publishers who have
requested submissions in .doc format. I've explained to them that I do not
have native Word, but can export from LibreOffice (with the caveat that I
can't guarantee the formatting will match what I see locally), and I've
never had an issue. I honestly think it's inappropriate for a
contract-giver to dictate to me what tools I use locally, so long as my
output can match their standards to a reasonable degree (and especially
since they do their own formatting in-house regardless).

The problem here is that neither Sibelius nor Finale is ever going to have
development work done on making sure its MusicXML *import* will work
properly: iirc (Urs, correct me if I'm wrong here), Sibelius' publisher
fired all its core developers in 2012, so they have no one with the
technical expertise with the core code to make such changes. Whether Dorico
(which is where those devs went) implements such functionality is an open
question (though, I'd be pretty certain that the terms of their departure
include a non-compete clause, so interoperability with Sib would *still* be
foreclosed).

But I think it is much more in *our* interest to focus on getting export
from .ly files into any number of other formats (but chiefly MusicXML) to
work better, so that these issues don't come up. This benefits not only
Lily engravers who have to work with commercial publishers locked into
Finale/Sibelius, but also would greatly aid our future work with, for
example, the MEI. After my experience this week -- in which we found that
producing a PDF with Lily, then using an OCR (SharpEye, with many thanks to
Phil Holmes who did the work) to output to Sib worked much faster and
better than Frescobaldi's MusicXML export (though this may be my own fault,
as the .ly files are rather convoluted) -- I would really love to see that
side of Lily's workflow improve.

Cheers,

A

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:

>
>
> Am 28.11.2016 um 10:11 schrieb David Kastrup:
> > Chris Yate  writes:
> >
> >> Hi Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and all
> the
> >> other wonderful **free** tools that we have available BUT if I was
> in
> >> any sense interested in working with a commercial publisher – especially
> >> for paid work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows, if I
> >> didn’t already own one,
> > You mean, if it doesn't already own you.  My father is a retired
> > professor of theoretical physics who is still publishing.  He received a
> > final draft of such a paper back from a physics journal along with
> > instructions to put any corrections into PDF annotations.  So I
> > installed Okular for him.
> >
> > Since the instructions were very detailed but only fit Acrobat Reader,
> > he decided to use that after all and started up Windows.  Which decided
> > to do a few updates.
> >
> > The only partition on his computer that is now still a Linux partition
> > is the swap partition.
> >
> > Windows decided to update itself to Windows 10 (without asking back, of
> > course) and decided to move all of Windows 8 into recovery partitions.
> > Instead of partitioning off space from the existing Windows partition,
> > it decided to rather junk all the Linux partitions and repurpose them.
> >
> > This is why this is called the "Windows 10 anniversary edition": it's
> > like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
> > mistress and draping her on your bed.
> >
> > It is quite unclear how much, if anything, will be salvageable from his
> > actual work environment.
> >
> > All of the Linux partitions are now "Windows recovery environment" or
> > "Microsoft basic data" partitions and it is not clear how much of the
> > original data will still be in there.
> >
> > Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
> > partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
> >
> > Microsoft is taking the last stand on the desktop and will go down with
> > it.  Don't let it take out its despair on your property.
>

Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 28.11.2016 um 10:11 schrieb David Kastrup:
>
>> All of the Linux partitions are now "Windows recovery environment" or
>> "Microsoft basic data" partitions and it is not clear how much of the
>> original data will still be in there.
>>
>> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
>> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
>>
>> Microsoft is taking the last stand on the desktop and will go down with
>> it.  Don't let it take out its despair on your property.
>
> Wow.
> One more reason to fight as hard as possible to keep my wife (or rather
> her brother) from insisting to go beyond Windows 7 on her PC (I think
> getting my wife to use Linux would rather involve getting a new wife
> first ;-) )

Your wife will not be able to keep Windows 7 unless you install tools
that keep the Windows 10 malware out.  Those tools need to be frequently
updated since Microsoft tries working around them.

It's not just Linux that gets destroyed: you'll find that even people
who merely maintain several Windows partitions on their disk have
reported similar damage: the Windows 10 updater just sacrifices extra
partitions in order to do its deeds.

At the moment, the largest malware danger by far is Microsoft.  So your
system is safest from data loss by disabling updates while you still
can.

It's like a tenant who decided to redecorate.  Just that all the
furniture was yours.  So you ask him what he did with it.  "Oh, don't
worry.  I put all that stuff up in the top floor and the garbage
collectors will be only around in a month, and until then you might
decide to move the stuff back."  "Uh, how did you get into the top floor
appartment?" "I broke the lock and exchanged it.  Also exchanged the
door bell tags, the top floor appartment is mine now.  By the way,
I killed the tenants and had their furniture removed and a few walls
broken out.  But if you decide you want to have the top floor back, I am
sure we will find a way to accommodate you."  "Uh, I'm the owner?  You
realize that?"  "What makes you think that?"

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 28 Nov 2016 09:11, "David Kastrup"  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > You mean, if it doesn't already own you.  My father is a retired
> professor of theoretical physics who is still publishing.  He received a
> final draft of such a paper back from a physics journal along with
> instructions to put any corrections into PDF annotations.  So I
> installed Okular for him.
>
> Since the instructions were very detailed but only fit Acrobat Reader,
> he decided to use that after all and started up Windows.  Which decided
> to do a few updates.
>
> The only partition on his computer that is now still a Linux partition
> is the swap partition.
>
> Windows decided to update itself to Windows 10 (without asking back, of
> course) and decided to move all of Windows 8 into recovery partitions.
> Instead of partitioning off space from the existing Windows partition,
> it decided to rather junk all the Linux partitions and repurpose them.
>
> This is why this is called the "Windows 10 anniversary edition": it's
> like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
> mistress and draping her on your bed.
>
> It is quite unclear how much, if anything, will be salvageable from his
> actual work environment.
>
> All of the Linux partitions are now "Windows recovery environment" or
> "Microsoft basic data" partitions and it is not clear how much of the
> original data will still be in there.
>
> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
>
> Microsoft is taking the last stand on the desktop and will go down with
> it.  Don't let it take out its despair on your property.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

Hi David,

It's terrible that you've had that experience, I've not heard of that
happening - although I dual boot at home
it hasn't happened to me... I've already got the "anniversary" update so
may have dodged a bullet.

However, the issue here isn't how bad Windows is ;-)

It's worth pointing out, OS X is another option for running Sib.

I had quite good success with Sibelius under WINE.  Years ago though and I
have no idea whether that would still work.

Cheers

Chris

P.S.
"it's like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
mistress and draping her on your bed"

I laughed out loud :)

Cheers,

Chris

P.S.

"it's like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
mistress and draping her on your bed"

I laughed out loud :)
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Re: Photoscore

[Urs Liska]

Am 28.11.2016 um 10:11 schrieb David Kastrup:
> Chris Yate  writes:
>
>> Hi Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-)
>>
>>
>> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and all the
>> other wonderful **free** tools that we have available BUT if I was in
>> any sense interested in working with a commercial publisher – especially
>> for paid work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows, if I
>> didn’t already own one,
> You mean, if it doesn't already own you.  My father is a retired
> professor of theoretical physics who is still publishing.  He received a
> final draft of such a paper back from a physics journal along with
> instructions to put any corrections into PDF annotations.  So I
> installed Okular for him.
>
> Since the instructions were very detailed but only fit Acrobat Reader,
> he decided to use that after all and started up Windows.  Which decided
> to do a few updates.
>
> The only partition on his computer that is now still a Linux partition
> is the swap partition.
>
> Windows decided to update itself to Windows 10 (without asking back, of
> course) and decided to move all of Windows 8 into recovery partitions.
> Instead of partitioning off space from the existing Windows partition,
> it decided to rather junk all the Linux partitions and repurpose them.
>
> This is why this is called the "Windows 10 anniversary edition": it's
> like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
> mistress and draping her on your bed.
>
> It is quite unclear how much, if anything, will be salvageable from his
> actual work environment.
>
> All of the Linux partitions are now "Windows recovery environment" or
> "Microsoft basic data" partitions and it is not clear how much of the
> original data will still be in there.
>
> Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
> partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.
>
> Microsoft is taking the last stand on the desktop and will go down with
> it.  Don't let it take out its despair on your property.

Wow.
One more reason to fight as hard as possible to keep my wife (or rather
her brother) from insisting to go beyond Windows 7 on her PC (I think
getting my wife to use Linux would rather involve getting a new wife
first ;-) )

Urs




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Re: Photoscore

[David Kastrup]

Chris Yate  writes:

> Hi Andrew
>
>
>
> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-)
>
>
> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and all the
> other wonderful **free** tools that we have available BUT if I was in
> any sense interested in working with a commercial publisher – especially
> for paid work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows, if I
> didn’t already own one,

You mean, if it doesn't already own you.  My father is a retired
professor of theoretical physics who is still publishing.  He received a
final draft of such a paper back from a physics journal along with
instructions to put any corrections into PDF annotations.  So I
installed Okular for him.

Since the instructions were very detailed but only fit Acrobat Reader,
he decided to use that after all and started up Windows.  Which decided
to do a few updates.

The only partition on his computer that is now still a Linux partition
is the swap partition.

Windows decided to update itself to Windows 10 (without asking back, of
course) and decided to move all of Windows 8 into recovery partitions.
Instead of partitioning off space from the existing Windows partition,
it decided to rather junk all the Linux partitions and repurpose them.

This is why this is called the "Windows 10 anniversary edition": it's
like your wife celebrating your wedding anniversary by murdering your
mistress and draping her on your bed.

It is quite unclear how much, if anything, will be salvageable from his
actual work environment.

All of the Linux partitions are now "Windows recovery environment" or
"Microsoft basic data" partitions and it is not clear how much of the
original data will still be in there.

Really, if you still have some dual boot environment, remove the Windows
partition as fast as you can before it destroys your system.

Microsoft is taking the last stand on the desktop and will go down with
it.  Don't let it take out its despair on your property.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Photoscore

[Urs Liska]

Am 28. November 2016 01:58:07 MEZ, schrieb Chris Yate :
>On 27 Nov 2016 23:49, "Urs Liska"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 28.11.2016 um 00:41 schrieb Chris Yate:
>>>
>>> Hi Jacques,
>>>
>>> I don't know... It seems ridiculous that they have no common format
>-
>but it's a relatively tiny industry...  But I doubt the big houses like
>Peters and Barenreiter use either Sibelius or Finale...
>>
>>
>> The big houses more or less *exclusively* use Sibelius and Finale in
>parallel, with a very low share still using SCORE and an actually tiny
>share using Amadeus.
>
>Interesting. I've been told they use something else - a bespoke system,
>but
>maybe that's old information. 

SCORE  is maybe bespoke enough ...

> Why use the two in parallel though?

Well, that's market, I suppose. Some prefer InDesign and others prefer Quark.

>
>.. And do you know, for actual production of books, do they use Adobe
>publishing tools, or something along those lines?

No idea, I've never talked about *this* part of the toolchain. But I'd think so.

>
>> Breitkopf just last year decided to quit any diversity and to move
>everything to Sibelius.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In the larger world of office IT, Microsoft have dealt with the
>issue of
>everyone expecting to be able to share and consume MS Word documents by
>supporting ODF, though it's still a problem that some people expect to
>receive only .doc files.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm sure there would be Sibelius and Finale output
>converters
>for Lilypond, but that these file formats are proprietary.
>>
>>
>> This is only true in a hypothetical sense. Due to lack of resources
>we
>only have an extremely rudimentary MusicXML export so far (the fact
>that
>this is due to the single (!) developer working on it having taken a
>full-time job speaks volumes, I think). There has been a few attempts
>in
>recent years to improve the situation, but in the end it boils down to
>the
>fact that this will only happen with some substantial external funding.
>
>So, is musicXML really a reliable interop format between the other
>systems?

I don't think so - at least not goven wjaz you can see now. I have just seen 
how a simple Sibelius file looked when exported to MusicXML and immediately 
imported back into Sibelius - frightening.

>
>>> It makes me sad that they don't see a market in inter-operability.
>If
>you're certain of the benefits of your software over another, then it's
>a
>real sign of confidence to be able to export and import to and from all
>of
>the alternatives.
>>
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken completely for the better part of its lifetime
>LilyPond was considered the last exit of a one-way street, i.e. it was
>considered useful to convert documents *to* LilyPond, but who would
>ever
>need anything *after* it ...
>> Fortunately this attitude isn't that strong anymore, but still the
>resources to change the situation are missing.
>
>If output to MusicXML is the solution, then it's clearly solvable. But
>this
>relies on the big boys implementing good import routines - and when
>submitting things to a publisher, I'm not sure how much reformatting
>they
>do but I would expect none. Which is the point of my prior post... It's
>dangerous to export to a format of which you can't independently test
>the
>validity.

Indeed.

Best
Urs 


>
>Chris

-- 
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

On 27 Nov 2016 23:49, "Urs Liska"  wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 28.11.2016 um 00:41 schrieb Chris Yate:
>>
>> Hi Jacques,
>>
>> I don't know... It seems ridiculous that they have no common format -
but it's a relatively tiny industry...  But I doubt the big houses like
Peters and Barenreiter use either Sibelius or Finale...
>
>
> The big houses more or less *exclusively* use Sibelius and Finale in
parallel, with a very low share still using SCORE and an actually tiny
share using Amadeus.

Interesting. I've been told they use something else - a bespoke system, but
maybe that's old information. Why use the two in parallel though?

.. And do you know, for actual production of books, do they use Adobe
publishing tools, or something along those lines?

> Breitkopf just last year decided to quit any diversity and to move
everything to Sibelius.
>
>
>>
>> In the larger world of office IT, Microsoft have dealt with the issue of
everyone expecting to be able to share and consume MS Word documents by
supporting ODF, though it's still a problem that some people expect to
receive only .doc files.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm sure there would be Sibelius and Finale output converters
for Lilypond, but that these file formats are proprietary.
>
>
> This is only true in a hypothetical sense. Due to lack of resources we
only have an extremely rudimentary MusicXML export so far (the fact that
this is due to the single (!) developer working on it having taken a
full-time job speaks volumes, I think). There has been a few attempts in
recent years to improve the situation, but in the end it boils down to the
fact that this will only happen with some substantial external funding.

So, is musicXML really a reliable interop format between the other systems?

>> It makes me sad that they don't see a market in inter-operability. If
you're certain of the benefits of your software over another, then it's a
real sign of confidence to be able to export and import to and from all of
the alternatives.
>
>
> If I'm not mistaken completely for the better part of its lifetime
LilyPond was considered the last exit of a one-way street, i.e. it was
considered useful to convert documents *to* LilyPond, but who would ever
need anything *after* it ...
> Fortunately this attitude isn't that strong anymore, but still the
resources to change the situation are missing.

If output to MusicXML is the solution, then it's clearly solvable. But this
relies on the big boys implementing good import routines - and when
submitting things to a publisher, I'm not sure how much reformatting they
do but I would expect none. Which is the point of my prior post... It's
dangerous to export to a format of which you can't independently test the
validity.

Chris
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Re: Photoscore

[Urs Liska]

Am 28.11.2016 um 00:41 schrieb Chris Yate:
> Hi Jacques,
>
> I don't know... It seems ridiculous that they have no common format -
> but it's a relatively tiny industry...  But I doubt the big houses
> like Peters and Barenreiter use either Sibelius or Finale...

The big houses more or less *exclusively* use Sibelius and Finale in
parallel, with a very low share still using SCORE and an actually tiny
share using Amadeus.

Breitkopf just last year decided to quit any diversity and to move
everything to Sibelius.

>
> In the larger world of office IT, Microsoft have dealt with the issue
> of everyone expecting to be able to share and consume MS Word
> documents by supporting ODF, though it's still a problem that some
> people expect to receive only .doc files.
>
> Anyway, I'm sure there would be Sibelius and Finale output converters
> for Lilypond, but that these file formats are proprietary.

This is only true in a hypothetical sense. Due to lack of resources we
only have an extremely rudimentary MusicXML export so far (the fact that
this is due to the single (!) developer working on it having taken a
full-time job speaks volumes, I think). There has been a few attempts in
recent years to improve the situation, but in the end it boils down to
the fact that this will only happen with some substantial external funding.

> It makes me sad that they don't see a market in inter-operability. If
> you're certain of the benefits of your software over another, then
> it's a real sign of confidence to be able to export and import to and
> from all of the alternatives.

If I'm not mistaken completely for the better part of its lifetime
LilyPond was considered the last exit of a one-way street, i.e. it was
considered useful to convert documents *to* LilyPond, but who would ever
need anything *after* it ...
Fortunately this attitude isn't that strong anymore, but still the
resources to change the situation are missing.

Urs

>
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 23:20 Jacques Menu Muzhic
> > wrote:
>
> Hello Chris,
>
> How does Finale behave in the commercial publishing industry,
> compared to Sibelius, in terms of market share?
>
>> Le 28 nov. 2016 à 00:03, Chris Yate > > a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Andrew
>>
>>  
>>
>> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-) 
>>
>>
>> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse
>> and all the other wonderful **free** tools that we have
>> available BUT if I was in any sense interested in working
>> with a commercial publisher – especially for paid work, I
>> wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows, if I didn’t
>> already own one, and then buy a copy of Sibelius. That’s just
>> what they expect; and quite reasonably, as it's the industry
>> standard!
>>
>>
>> Also, if you’re expected to give them a well-presented score
>> rather than just the notes, you’re going to need to do some work,
>> possibly quite a bit, within Sib.  Photoscore will give you the
>> music entry at higher speed than manual entry, but in my
>> experience of Sibelius (mainly the now old version 3), getting a
>> piece to performance quality output requires quite a lot
>> of manual work to move symbols and so on about. (Though it's
>> possible they've improved this by version 7, and some of my
>> friends that use it say this is the case).
>>
>>
>> Best of luck :)
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 22:22 Laura Conrad > > wrote:
>>
>> > "Jacques" == Jacques Menu Muzhic > > writes:
>>
>> Jacques> Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years
>> ago, my
>> Jacques> fault.
>>
>> So use a different email to get another free trial.
>>
>> --
>> Laura   (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org
>> )
>> 
>> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>> 
>> > >
>>
>> I gave Cuellar more chances than my first wife.
>>
>> Hall of Fame Orioles manager Earl Weaver, after he stuck with
>> lefty
>> Mike Cuellar way too long, finally pulling him out of the
>> rotation
>> only to have Cuellar complain about losing his spot.
>>
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>>
>
>
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing 

Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

Hi Jacques,

I don't know... It seems ridiculous that they have no common format - but
it's a relatively tiny industry...  But I doubt the big houses like Peters
and Barenreiter use either Sibelius or Finale...

In the larger world of office IT, Microsoft have dealt with the issue of
everyone expecting to be able to share and consume MS Word documents by
supporting ODF, though it's still a problem that some people expect to
receive only .doc files.

Anyway, I'm sure there would be Sibelius and Finale output converters for
Lilypond, but that these file formats are proprietary. It makes me sad that
they don't see a market in inter-operability. If you're certain of the
benefits of your software over another, then it's a real sign of confidence
to be able to export and import to and from all of the alternatives.



On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 23:20 Jacques Menu Muzhic 
wrote:

> Hello Chris,
>
> How does Finale behave in the commercial publishing industry, compared to
> Sibelius, in terms of market share?
>
> Le 28 nov. 2016 à 00:03, Chris Yate  a écrit :
>
> Hi Andrew
>
>
> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-)
>
>
> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and all
> the other wonderful **free** tools that we have available BUT if I
> was in any sense interested in working with a commercial publisher –
> especially for paid work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows,
> if I didn’t already own one, and then buy a copy of Sibelius. That’s just
> what they expect; and quite reasonably, as it's the industry standard!
>
>
> Also, if you’re expected to give them a well-presented score rather than
> just the notes, you’re going to need to do some work, possibly quite a bit,
> within Sib.  Photoscore will give you the music entry at higher speed than
> manual entry, but in my experience of Sibelius (mainly the now old version
> 3), getting a piece to performance quality output requires quite a lot
> of manual work to move symbols and so on about. (Though it's possible
> they've improved this by version 7, and some of my friends that use it say
> this is the case).
>
>
> Best of luck :)
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 22:22 Laura Conrad  wrote:
>
> > "Jacques" == Jacques Menu Muzhic  writes:
>
> Jacques> Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years ago, my
> Jacques> fault.
>
> So use a different email to get another free trial.
>
> --
> Laura   (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org)
> 
> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>  
>
> I gave Cuellar more chances than my first wife.
>
> Hall of Fame Orioles manager Earl Weaver, after he stuck with lefty
> Mike Cuellar way too long, finally pulling him out of the rotation
> only to have Cuellar complain about losing his spot.
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
>
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Re: Photoscore

[Urs Liska]

Am 28.11.2016 um 00:20 schrieb Jacques Menu Muzhic:
> Hello Chris,
>
> How does Finale behave in the commercial publishing industry, compared
> to Sibelius, in terms of market share?

AFAICT they're about the same.
Much more interesting IMHO is how Dorico will change the market - and
how it will compare to LilyPond in some of its ("our") selling points,
mainly automatic (and absolute) engraving quality.

Urs

>
>> Le 28 nov. 2016 à 00:03, Chris Yate > > a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Andrew
>>
>>  
>>
>> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-) 
>>
>>
>> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and
>> all the other wonderful **free** tools that we have available BUT
>> if I was in any sense interested in working with a commercial
>> publisher – especially for paid work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy
>> a copy of Windows, if I didn’t already own one, and then buy a copy
>> of Sibelius. That’s just what they expect; and quite reasonably, as
>> it's the industry standard!
>>
>>
>> Also, if you’re expected to give them a well-presented score rather
>> than just the notes, you’re going to need to do some work, possibly
>> quite a bit, within Sib.  Photoscore will give you the music entry at
>> higher speed than manual entry, but in my experience of Sibelius
>> (mainly the now old version 3), getting a piece to performance
>> quality output requires quite a lot of manual work to move symbols
>> and so on about. (Though it's possible they've improved this by
>> version 7, and some of my friends that use it say this is the case).
>>
>>
>> Best of luck :)
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 22:22 Laura Conrad > > wrote:
>>
>> > "Jacques" == Jacques Menu Muzhic > > writes:
>>
>> Jacques> Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years ago, my
>> Jacques> fault.
>>
>> So use a different email to get another free trial.
>>
>> --
>> Laura   (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org )
>> 
>> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>>  > >
>>
>> I gave Cuellar more chances than my first wife.
>>
>> Hall of Fame Orioles manager Earl Weaver, after he stuck with lefty
>> Mike Cuellar way too long, finally pulling him out of the rotation
>> only to have Cuellar complain about losing his spot.
>>
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: Photoscore

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello Chris,

How does Finale behave in the commercial publishing industry, compared to 
Sibelius, in terms of market share?

> Le 28 nov. 2016 à 00:03, Chris Yate  a écrit :
> 
> Hi Andrew
> 
>  
> Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-) 
> 
> 
> 
> For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and all the 
> other wonderful *free* tools that we have available BUT if I was in any 
> sense interested in working with a commercial publisher – especially for paid 
> work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows, if I didn’t already 
> own one, and then buy a copy of Sibelius. That’s just what they expect; and 
> quite reasonably, as it's the industry standard!
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you’re expected to give them a well-presented score rather than just 
> the notes, you’re going to need to do some work, possibly quite a bit, within 
> Sib.  Photoscore will give you the music entry at higher speed than manual 
> entry, but in my experience of Sibelius (mainly the now old version 3), 
> getting a piece to performance quality output requires quite a lot of manual 
> work to move symbols and so on about. (Though it's possible they've improved 
> this by version 7, and some of my friends that use it say this is the case).
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck :)
> 
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 22:22 Laura Conrad  > wrote:
> > "Jacques" == Jacques Menu Muzhic  > > writes:
> 
> Jacques> Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years ago, my
> Jacques> fault.
> 
> So use a different email to get another free trial.
> 
> --
> Laura   (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org )
>  >
> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
> > 
> >
> 
> I gave Cuellar more chances than my first wife.
> 
> Hall of Fame Orioles manager Earl Weaver, after he stuck with lefty
> Mike Cuellar way too long, finally pulling him out of the rotation
> only to have Cuellar complain about losing his spot.
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org 
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user 
> 

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Re: Photoscore

[Chris Yate]

Hi Andrew



Apologies in advance, I'm going to be *that guy*... ;-)


For what it’s worth, I’m a huge fan of Linux, Lilypond and Muse and all the
other wonderful **free** tools that we have available BUT if I was in
any sense interested in working with a commercial publisher – especially
for paid work, I wouldn’t mess about. I’d buy a copy of Windows, if I
didn’t already own one, and then buy a copy of Sibelius. That’s just what
they expect; and quite reasonably, as it's the industry standard!


Also, if you’re expected to give them a well-presented score rather than
just the notes, you’re going to need to do some work, possibly quite a bit,
within Sib.  Photoscore will give you the music entry at higher speed than
manual entry, but in my experience of Sibelius (mainly the now old version
3), getting a piece to performance quality output requires quite a lot
of manual work to move symbols and so on about. (Though it's possible
they've improved this by version 7, and some of my friends that use it say
this is the case).


Best of luck :)


Chris



On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 22:22 Laura Conrad  wrote:

> > "Jacques" == Jacques Menu Muzhic  writes:
>
> Jacques> Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years ago, my
> Jacques> fault.
>
> So use a different email to get another free trial.
>
> --
> Laura   (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org)
> 
> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>  
>
> I gave Cuellar more chances than my first wife.
>
> Hall of Fame Orioles manager Earl Weaver, after he stuck with lefty
> Mike Cuellar way too long, finally pulling him out of the rotation
> only to have Cuellar complain about losing his spot.
>
> ___
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>
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Re: Photoscore

[Laura Conrad]

> "Jacques" == Jacques Menu Muzhic  writes:

Jacques> Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years ago, my
Jacques> fault.

So use a different email to get another free trial.

-- 
Laura   (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org)

(617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139   
 

I gave Cuellar more chances than my first wife.

Hall of Fame Orioles manager Earl Weaver, after he stuck with lefty
Mike Cuellar way too long, finally pulling him out of the rotation
only to have Cuellar complain about losing his spot.

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Re: Photoscore

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Oups, totally forgot I had tested it two years ago, my fault.

> Le 22 nov. 2016 à 17:22, Jacques Menu Muzhic  a écrit :
> 
> I just downloaded the SmartScore X2 Pro demo for Mac, but it tells me that my 
> 60 day test period is over….
> 
>> Le 22 nov. 2016 à 14:21, SoundsFromSound  a écrit 
>> :
>> 
>> N. Andrew Walsh wrote
>>> Hi List,
>>> 
>>> I've unfortunately run up against a suddenly very urgent deadline, that
>>> involves all the worst things about doing engraving work with Lily while
>>> trying to work with entrenched commercial interests.
>>> 
>>> Namely, I've spent the last year engraving a set of scores with Lily that
>>> look great, but for a project that was financed by a large commercial
>>> publisher that is dead-set on Sibelius. The financing depends on the
>>> publisher getting a .sib file, and the project lead just told me yesterday
>>> that I need to produce such a file in a week or two "or else."
>>> 
>>> I don't have Sibelius (I roll linux), but my partner does, so Urs and I
>>> have a sort of hacky solution that might work: I start with a blank sib
>>> file with all the voices and measures and meter changes, and then the
>>> individual voices of the score from the .ly file. The .sib file gets
>>> exported to a MusicXML file, as do the parts from the .ly file, and we're
>>> going to try to copy the latter into the former, hoping that we can
>>> re-import into Sibelius into something that only requires a reasonable
>>> amount of work to clean up and submit.
>>> 
>>> Problem is, MusicXML is turning out to be somewhat … sub-functional, so
>>> we're having difficulties.
>>> 
>>> However, my partner tells me that there's a commercial program called
>>> "Photoscore" that can take scanned scores and produce Sibelius files from
>>> them. But it's around $400, and (obviously) doesn't have a linux version.
>>> 
>>> My question for the list is: do any of you have this program? Does it
>>> work?
>>> If so, would you be willing to help me by scanning in the Lilypond scores
>>> I
>>> have? If we could get to a .sib file that even just *mostly* contains what
>>> it needs to, without all this import/export buggery, it would save huge
>>> amounts of time.
>>> 
>>> Please let me know asap if any of you do. Like I said, I'm under a
>>> deadline
>>> to get this done, and the alternative is a lot of time spent commuting to
>>> a
>>> computer lab off-site to re-enter everything manually. I'm *really* hoping
>>> one of you can spare me that fate.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> A
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> 
>>> lilypond-user@
>> 
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I've used Photoscore but I prefer SmartScore. It has been far superior in
>> every project I've ever used it in. Worth every penny personally. It really
>> is a great tool.
>> 
>> It depends on what your needs are, how often you use it, budget, etc.
>> https://www.musitek.com/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> composer | sound designer 
>> LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Photoscore-tp196994p197003.html
>> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> 
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> 


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Re: Photoscore

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

I just downloaded the SmartScore X2 Pro demo for Mac, but it tells me that my 
60 day test period is over….

> Le 22 nov. 2016 à 14:21, SoundsFromSound  a écrit :
> 
> N. Andrew Walsh wrote
>> Hi List,
>> 
>> I've unfortunately run up against a suddenly very urgent deadline, that
>> involves all the worst things about doing engraving work with Lily while
>> trying to work with entrenched commercial interests.
>> 
>> Namely, I've spent the last year engraving a set of scores with Lily that
>> look great, but for a project that was financed by a large commercial
>> publisher that is dead-set on Sibelius. The financing depends on the
>> publisher getting a .sib file, and the project lead just told me yesterday
>> that I need to produce such a file in a week or two "or else."
>> 
>> I don't have Sibelius (I roll linux), but my partner does, so Urs and I
>> have a sort of hacky solution that might work: I start with a blank sib
>> file with all the voices and measures and meter changes, and then the
>> individual voices of the score from the .ly file. The .sib file gets
>> exported to a MusicXML file, as do the parts from the .ly file, and we're
>> going to try to copy the latter into the former, hoping that we can
>> re-import into Sibelius into something that only requires a reasonable
>> amount of work to clean up and submit.
>> 
>> Problem is, MusicXML is turning out to be somewhat … sub-functional, so
>> we're having difficulties.
>> 
>> However, my partner tells me that there's a commercial program called
>> "Photoscore" that can take scanned scores and produce Sibelius files from
>> them. But it's around $400, and (obviously) doesn't have a linux version.
>> 
>> My question for the list is: do any of you have this program? Does it
>> work?
>> If so, would you be willing to help me by scanning in the Lilypond scores
>> I
>> have? If we could get to a .sib file that even just *mostly* contains what
>> it needs to, without all this import/export buggery, it would save huge
>> amounts of time.
>> 
>> Please let me know asap if any of you do. Like I said, I'm under a
>> deadline
>> to get this done, and the alternative is a lot of time spent commuting to
>> a
>> computer lab off-site to re-enter everything manually. I'm *really* hoping
>> one of you can spare me that fate.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> A
>> 
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
> 
>> lilypond-user@
> 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've used Photoscore but I prefer SmartScore. It has been far superior in
> every project I've ever used it in. Worth every penny personally. It really
> is a great tool.
> 
> It depends on what your needs are, how often you use it, budget, etc.
> https://www.musitek.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> composer | sound designer 
> LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Photoscore-tp196994p197003.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: Photoscore

[SoundsFromSound]

N. Andrew Walsh wrote
> Hi List,
> 
> I've unfortunately run up against a suddenly very urgent deadline, that
> involves all the worst things about doing engraving work with Lily while
> trying to work with entrenched commercial interests.
> 
> Namely, I've spent the last year engraving a set of scores with Lily that
> look great, but for a project that was financed by a large commercial
> publisher that is dead-set on Sibelius. The financing depends on the
> publisher getting a .sib file, and the project lead just told me yesterday
> that I need to produce such a file in a week or two "or else."
> 
> I don't have Sibelius (I roll linux), but my partner does, so Urs and I
> have a sort of hacky solution that might work: I start with a blank sib
> file with all the voices and measures and meter changes, and then the
> individual voices of the score from the .ly file. The .sib file gets
> exported to a MusicXML file, as do the parts from the .ly file, and we're
> going to try to copy the latter into the former, hoping that we can
> re-import into Sibelius into something that only requires a reasonable
> amount of work to clean up and submit.
> 
> Problem is, MusicXML is turning out to be somewhat … sub-functional, so
> we're having difficulties.
> 
> However, my partner tells me that there's a commercial program called
> "Photoscore" that can take scanned scores and produce Sibelius files from
> them. But it's around $400, and (obviously) doesn't have a linux version.
> 
> My question for the list is: do any of you have this program? Does it
> work?
> If so, would you be willing to help me by scanning in the Lilypond scores
> I
> have? If we could get to a .sib file that even just *mostly* contains what
> it needs to, without all this import/export buggery, it would save huge
> amounts of time.
> 
> Please let me know asap if any of you do. Like I said, I'm under a
> deadline
> to get this done, and the alternative is a lot of time spent commuting to
> a
> computer lab off-site to re-enter everything manually. I'm *really* hoping
> one of you can spare me that fate.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> A
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list

> lilypond-user@

> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Hi,

I've used Photoscore but I prefer SmartScore. It has been far superior in
every project I've ever used it in. Worth every penny personally. It really
is a great tool.

It depends on what your needs are, how often you use it, budget, etc.
https://www.musitek.com/







-
composer | sound designer 
LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Photoscore-tp196994p197003.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Photoscore

[SoundsFromSound]

-
composer | sound designer 
LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Photoscore-tp196994p197002.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Photoscore

[Phil Holmes]

I do have Sibelius 7, and I do have its lite PhotoScore and I do have a full 
version of SharpEye, which is similar to PhotoScore and exports XML.  I'd be 
happy to attempt to contribute by reading your PDFs into XML and thence to Sib 
if you want - depending on how many pages/scores, of course.

--
Phil Holmes


  - Original Message - 
  From: N. Andrew Walsh 
  To: lilypond-user 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:13 AM
  Subject: Photoscore


  Hi List,


  I've unfortunately run up against a suddenly very urgent deadline, that 
involves all the worst things about doing engraving work with Lily while trying 
to work with entrenched commercial interests.


  Namely, I've spent the last year engraving a set of scores with Lily that 
look great, but for a project that was financed by a large commercial publisher 
that is dead-set on Sibelius. The financing depends on the publisher getting a 
.sib file, and the project lead just told me yesterday that I need to produce 
such a file in a week or two "or else."


  I don't have Sibelius (I roll linux), but my partner does, so Urs and I have 
a sort of hacky solution that might work: I start with a blank sib file with 
all the voices and measures and meter changes, and then the individual voices 
of the score from the .ly file. The .sib file gets exported to a MusicXML file, 
as do the parts from the .ly file, and we're going to try to copy the latter 
into the former, hoping that we can re-import into Sibelius into something that 
only requires a reasonable amount of work to clean up and submit.


  Problem is, MusicXML is turning out to be somewhat … sub-functional, so we're 
having difficulties.


  However, my partner tells me that there's a commercial program called 
"Photoscore" that can take scanned scores and produce Sibelius files from them. 
But it's around $400, and (obviously) doesn't have a linux version.


  My question for the list is: do any of you have this program? Does it work? 
If so, would you be willing to help me by scanning in the Lilypond scores I 
have? If we could get to a .sib file that even just *mostly* contains what it 
needs to, without all this import/export buggery, it would save huge amounts of 
time.


  Please let me know asap if any of you do. Like I said, I'm under a deadline 
to get this done, and the alternative is a lot of time spent commuting to a 
computer lab off-site to re-enter everything manually. I'm *really* hoping one 
of you can spare me that fate.


  Cheers,


  A


--


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Re: Photoscore

[Robert Blackstone]

Hi Andrew,

This reply is not about Photoscore.
But there is maybe another "sort of hacky solution", which works for Finale and 
maybe also works in Sibelius. (I don't have Sibelius);

The midi-files I generate with LilyPond are opened, by default, in Finale and 
as a bonus one gets the complete but unadorned score in Finale. Just the notes. 
No lyrics, exporessive marks, ties yes but no slurs etc.  One other caveat: 
Finale does not recognize partial measures so you have to make a copy with only 
full measures.
Just a suggestion.

Best regards,
Robert Blackstone

On 22 Nov 2016, at 11:13 , N. Andrew Walsh  wrote:

> Hi List,
> 
> I've unfortunately run up against a suddenly very urgent deadline, that 
> involves all the worst things about doing engraving work with Lily while 
> trying to work with entrenched commercial interests.
> 
> Namely, I've spent the last year engraving a set of scores with Lily that 
> look great, but for a project that was financed by a large commercial 
> publisher that is dead-set on Sibelius. The financing depends on the 
> publisher getting a .sib file, and the project lead just told me yesterday 
> that I need to produce such a file in a week or two "or else."
> 
> I don't have Sibelius (I roll linux), but my partner does, so Urs and I have 
> a sort of hacky solution that might work: I start with a blank sib file with 
> all the voices and measures and meter changes, and then the individual voices 
> of the score from the .ly file. The .sib file gets exported to a MusicXML 
> file, as do the parts from the .ly file, and we're going to try to copy the 
> latter into the former, hoping that we can re-import into Sibelius into 
> something that only requires a reasonable amount of work to clean up and 
> submit.
> 
> Problem is, MusicXML is turning out to be somewhat … sub-functional, so we're 
> having difficulties.
> 
> However, my partner tells me that there's a commercial program called 
> "Photoscore" that can take scanned scores and produce Sibelius files from 
> them. But it's around $400, and (obviously) doesn't have a linux version.
> 
> My question for the list is: do any of you have this program? Does it work? 
> If so, would you be willing to help me by scanning in the Lilypond scores I 
> have? If we could get to a .sib file that even just *mostly* contains what it 
> needs to, without all this import/export buggery, it would save huge amounts 
> of time.
> 
> Please let me know asap if any of you do. Like I said, I'm under a deadline 
> to get this done, and the alternative is a lot of time spent commuting to a 
> computer lab off-site to re-enter everything manually. I'm *really* hoping 
> one of you can spare me that fate.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> A
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
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Re: Photoscore

[N. Andrew Walsh]

Hi Andrew,

Sibelius includes the "lite" version, which doesn't read note-values
smaller than a 16th (see the features page). I would need someone with the
full version.

Cheers,

A

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Andrew Bernard 
wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
>
>
> Not a Sibelius user myself, but isn’t Photoscore included in Sibelius? If
> you have to use that program to do the job, then would it not have
> Photoscore already?
>
>
>
> http://www.sibelius.com/products/photoscore/lite.html
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Photoscore

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Andrew,

 

Not a Sibelius user myself, but isn’t Photoscore included in Sibelius? If you 
have to use that program to do the job, then would it not have Photoscore 
already?

 

http://www.sibelius.com/products/photoscore/lite.html

 

Andrew

 

 

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