Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Stefan Thomas]

If You are interested: I made short-cuts for jedit by myself. I type, q qi
wi ei and I get c'', dis'', dis'' und eis'' for example and I can input
chords quicker. I type asd (shift enter) and then I get . I You
are interested, I can send it to You. But now I use most of the time
lilykde, which I prefer because of the RUMOR implementation.


2008/11/21 Bertalan Fodor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Also there is a quick insert mode work in progress for jEdit /
> LilyPondTool. However, I could not make enough progress yet, but the
> foundations are there, so in the after-the-next release it will be
> available.
>
> However, my quick insert mode will be really a virtual piano made from the
> keyboard. I found that approach much better. It will sport automatic
> accidental handling. For example if you want to write
>
> c es c bes, b c
>
> in quick lily you type:
> d g e d l , e d
>
> In LilyPondTool you'll be able to type:
>
> c g c s x c (try it!)
>
> Much more natural. However, it makes it complicated, because the software
> must know the key. So for example is c minor it will be rendered as
> c es c bes, b c
> but in h major, it will be rendered as
> c dis c ais, b c
>
> But will make it the fastest possible way to enter notes on a computer
> keyboard.
>
> Bert
>
> > Great work. However, I find there is only one thing wrong with it:
> > it's for vim. :-)
> >
> > 2008/11/21 Eyolf Řstrem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> The most useful and simple tool I've had the pleasure to work on
> >> lilypond
> >> files with, is Nicolas Sceaux's lyqi mode (lilypond quick insert). There
> >> is
> >> only one thing wrong with it: it's for emacs. I therefore decided to
> >> make
> >> my own version of it for vim.
> > --
> > Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
> > http://www.paconet.org
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > lilypond-user@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Eyolf Østrem]

On 21.11.2008 (21:00), Bertalan Fodor wrote:
> Then for sure I will include your layout as an option.

... and an option to customize the layout, I assume?

e

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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Eyolf Østrem]

On 21.11.2008 (18:50), Nicolas Sceaux wrote:
> I'm using the keyboard mapping  suggested by a user and described here:
>   

That's very close to my layout. The arrangement of the pitch keys is a
little different, but the principle is the same. That also confirms my
experience: that fewer key-presses isn't necessarily the quickest. 

That said, tastes and techniques differ; I could probably type in a
beethoven sonata quicker than I could play it on a real piano

eyolf

-- 
You don't have to wait--you can have it in 5.004_54 or so.  :-)
 -- Larry Wall in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Bertalan Fodor]

Then for sure I will include your layout as an option.

Bert

Nicolas Sceaux írta:

Le 21 nov. 08 à 14:34, Bertalan Fodor a écrit :


In LilyPondTool you'll be able to type:

c g c s x c (try it!)

Much more natural. However, it makes it complicated, because the 
software

must know the key. So for example is c minor it will be rendered as
c es c bes, b c
but in h major, it will be rendered as
c dis c ais, b c

But will make it the fastest possible way to enter notes on a computer
keyboard.


Actually, after typing many hundreds of pages of notes that way on a
computer keyboard, my conclusion was different: mimicking a piano 
keyboard
is not the most ergonomic mapping. I'm using the keyboard mapping 
suggested

by a user and described here:
  
The less you move your hands, the faster you are. With this layout, 
only the
fingers are moving. It's not really about being more natural, but 
efficient.
Indeed this "unnatural" layout requires some training. But then how 
quick it

is.

nicolas






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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Nicolas Sceaux]

Le 21 nov. 08 à 14:34, Bertalan Fodor a écrit :


In LilyPondTool you'll be able to type:

c g c s x c (try it!)

Much more natural. However, it makes it complicated, because the  
software

must know the key. So for example is c minor it will be rendered as
c es c bes, b c
but in h major, it will be rendered as
c dis c ais, b c

But will make it the fastest possible way to enter notes on a computer
keyboard.


Actually, after typing many hundreds of pages of notes that way on a
computer keyboard, my conclusion was different: mimicking a piano  
keyboard
is not the most ergonomic mapping. I'm using the keyboard mapping  
suggested

by a user and described here:
  
The less you move your hands, the faster you are. With this layout,  
only the
fingers are moving. It's not really about being more natural, but  
efficient.
Indeed this "unnatural" layout requires some training. But then how  
quick it

is.

nicolas



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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Eyolf Østrem]

On 21.11.2008 (14:34), Bertalan Fodor wrote:
> Also there is a quick insert mode work in progress for jEdit /
> LilyPondTool.

That's the second reason why I found out I had to make something myself
(third, actually: after my sound contempt for emacs, and the desire to do
some learning-by-doing): I had high hopes for the LPT's quick insert mode,
but in the current version, it didn't do much for me (that's also why I
nagged you for an update in the other thread :)

> However, my quick insert mode will be really a virtual piano made from the
> keyboard. I found that approach much better. It will sport automatic
> accidental handling. For example if you want to write
> 
> c es c bes, b c

> 
> in quick lily you type:
> d g e d l , e d
> 
> In LilyPondTool you'll be able to type:
> 
> c g c s x c (try it!)

Hm... where in that sequence is the ',' information? If 's' is 'bes,', why
then is'nt 'x' = 'b,'?

As far as I understand your layout, the two bottom rows mimic a piano
keyboard, like so:

-  
| | | | | | | | | |   | |
|  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  | | |
---  
  | as  | bes | | cis | dis | | fis | gis | | | | |
  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  | | | |
  - 
|  a  |  b  |  c  |  d  |  e  |  f  |  g  | | | | |
|  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  | | | | |
---

That, to me, has the great disadvantage of moving too far away from the
ergonomics of the computer keyboard, i.e. disregarding the difference
between a piano keyboard and a computer keyboard. With this layout, (a) the
home row is taken up by little-used accidentals, and (b) one function ("add
a note") will either have to be done with two hands, or by letting one hand
jump all over the keyboard.  That's why I went for the home-row based
layout with the pitches in one hand and the rhythms in the other:  

-  
|  s  |  g  |  a  |  b  |times| | |  '  |16/64|32/128 | |
|  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  | | |
---  
  |  c  |  d  |  e  |  f  | r/R |  1  |  2  |  4  |  8  | | | |
  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  | | | |
  - 
|undo | del |flat |sharp|breve| dot |  ,  | | | | |
|  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  | | | | |
---

In practice, I find this much quicker, even though there are a few extra
key strokes. I would type 

a dc a rmc rv a

> Much more natural. However, it makes it complicated, because the software
> must know the key. So for example is c minor it will be rendered as
> c es c bes, b c
> but in h major, it will be rendered as
> c dis c ais, b c

I assume/home you will also have a key-agnostic mode, e.g. for transcribing
music; I wouldn't want to have to think "which key am I in?" all the time,
if all I want is to enter a 'g'.

In practice, at least for most of the music I type, the "remember the
accidental modification" model does more or less what you wish (after the
initial switch from 'b' to 'bes', every 'r' press will give a 'bes'), but
with greater simplicity and -- I think -- flexibility.

I like the idea of setting the key, though. It could either be done
explicitly, or by reading back to the previous \key command if one exists.
I think I'm going to shamelessly steal that idea... 

Eyolf

-- 
Neurotics build castles in the sky,
Psychotics live in them,
And psychiatrists collect the rent.


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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Bertalan Fodor]

Also there is a quick insert mode work in progress for jEdit /
LilyPondTool. However, I could not make enough progress yet, but the
foundations are there, so in the after-the-next release it will be
available.

However, my quick insert mode will be really a virtual piano made from the
keyboard. I found that approach much better. It will sport automatic
accidental handling. For example if you want to write

c es c bes, b c

in quick lily you type:
d g e d l , e d

In LilyPondTool you'll be able to type:

c g c s x c (try it!)

Much more natural. However, it makes it complicated, because the software
must know the key. So for example is c minor it will be rendered as
c es c bes, b c
but in h major, it will be rendered as
c dis c ais, b c

But will make it the fastest possible way to enter notes on a computer
keyboard.

Bert

> Great work. However, I find there is only one thing wrong with it:
> it's for vim. :-)
>
> 2008/11/21 Eyolf Řstrem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> The most useful and simple tool I've had the pleasure to work on
>> lilypond
>> files with, is Nicolas Sceaux's lyqi mode (lilypond quick insert). There
>> is
>> only one thing wrong with it: it's for emacs. I therefore decided to
>> make
>> my own version of it for vim.
> --
> Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
> http://www.paconet.org
>
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>




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Re: Quick-insert mode for vim -- work in progress

[Francisco Vila]

Great work. However, I find there is only one thing wrong with it:
it's for vim. :-)

2008/11/21 Eyolf Østrem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> The most useful and simple tool I've had the pleasure to work on lilypond
> files with, is Nicolas Sceaux's lyqi mode (lilypond quick insert). There is
> only one thing wrong with it: it's for emacs. I therefore decided to make
> my own version of it for vim.
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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