Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[David Kastrup]

Lucas Werkmeister  writes:

> Hi everyone!
>
> In a composition I’m transcribing, there are double slurs between some
> notes (see attached image, also uploaded at [1]), and the lower slurs
> are right next to the note heads, inside the beams – whereas when
> typeset by LilyPond, the slurs are outside the beams. I’m wondering what
> the best way is to move the slurs inside the beams.
>
> I did find one workaround, and I’ll describe it just in case someone
> else with the same problem finds this email later, but it is horrible:
>
> 1. Introduce an auxiliary voice with the << { … } \new Voice { … } >>
> construct.
> 2. Duplicate the notes in both voices.
> 3. In the main voice, explicitly point the slur away from the beams (up
> or down, depending on where the beam is).
> 4. In the other voice, explicitly point the slur towards the beams (down
> or up). We have a double slur, but it’s still outside the beam.
> 5. Still in the other voice, apply \noBeam to the slurred notes. This
> makes the slur attach directly to the note heads. Our slurs are now
> where we want them – we just need to get rid of all the auxiliary stuff.
> 5. \hide the NoteHead in the auxiliary voice. (Don’t \omit it, otherwise
> the slur won’t position correctly – in one case I even got LilyPond to
> segfault with \omit.)
> 6. \omit the Stem and Flag in the auxiliary voice. (In this case, \hide
> isn’t enough, otherwise the stems in the main voice will be lengthened
> in an attempt to reduce collisions with the invisible grobs.)
> 7. Repeat this for every double slur you have.
>
> This hack is awful enough that, as much as I want to reproduce the
> printed score accurately, I’m not yet sure whether I will end up using
> it. It’s also not perfect – LilyPond still prints warnings about “too
> many clashing note columns” (due to the hidden but not omitted NoteHead,
> I guess).
>
> Does anyone have better ideas? :)

No minimal example so I'll just sketch.

c-\tweak ... ^( -\tweak ... _(

Just write out upper and lower slurs explicitly with their own direction
markers and tweak them individually.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Mats Bengtsson]

On 2018-03-29 13:33, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi Mats,


Just use the new features of version 2.19:

I tried that (see a previous post on this thread), but there are collisions (see a 
separate "bug?" thread).

Did you not find that the slurs collide with the noteheads on your machine?
Right, now that you mention it. It seems to happen as soon as you 
specify the slur per note head instead of for the full chord. Looking at 
the examples in 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/changes/index.html, the 
intention is probably to make it clear exactly which note head in the 
chord the slur starts from, but in this particular example it seems to 
fail for two reasons:
- The horizontal distance between the two notes is very short, and the 
slur is not shortened sufficiently.
- For slurs attached to a bottom or top note of a chord, it would make 
sense to add some vertical spacing, similar to the spacing used when the 
slur is attached to the full chord, since there's no uncertainty about 
which of the notes the slur starts from.


Regarding the latter issue, it would be worthwhile to check with Gould 
if there is a typesetting convention to distinguish between a slur that 
starts from the top note of a chord and a slur that starts from the full 
chord, as Lilypond currently does it, or if these two situations should 
be typeset the same.


Sorry about double posting already posted solutions, I follow the 
mailing list in Digest mode, so there was some delay.


   /Mats

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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Mats,

> Just use the new features of version 2.19:

I tried that (see a previous post on this thread), but there are collisions 
(see a separate "bug?" thread).

Did you not find that the slurs collide with the noteheads on your machine?

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Mats Bengtsson]

Sorry, I was too quick! See corrected version below.


On 2018-03-29 09:24, Mats Bengtsson wrote:



On 2018-03-29 00:39, Lucas Werkmeister wrote:


Hi everyone!

In a composition I’m transcribing, there are double slurs between 
some notes (see attached image, also uploaded at [1]), and the lower 
slurs are right next to the note heads, inside the beams – whereas 
when typeset by LilyPond, the slurs are outside the beams. I’m 
wondering what the best way is to move the slurs inside the beams.

Just use the new features of version 2.19:
\version "2.19.80"

\relative c''{
  \key f \major
  \time 2/4
  16 8 16  
16 8

}

These, and many more improvements in 2.19 are described at 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/changes/index.html. 

    /Mats


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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Mats Bengtsson]

On 2018-03-29 00:39, Lucas Werkmeister wrote:


Hi everyone!

In a composition I’m transcribing, there are double slurs between some 
notes (see attached image, also uploaded at [1]), and the lower slurs 
are right next to the note heads, inside the beams – whereas when 
typeset by LilyPond, the slurs are outside the beams. I’m wondering 
what the best way is to move the slurs inside the beams.



Just use the new features of version 2.19:
\version "2.19.80"

\relative c''{
  \key f \major
  \time 2/4
  16 8 16   8
  }

These, and many more improvements in 2.19 are described at 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/changes/index.html.


    /Mats

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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Carl Sorensen]

From: Lucas Werkmeister 
Date: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 4:39 PM
To: 
Subject: double slurs within beamed notes






Does anyone have better ideas? :)

Slur on one note, phrasing slur on the other?



Carl


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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Lucas,

> Hm, is this \=1 thing a new feature in the development version? I can’t get 
> it to work on 2.18.2.

Might be. Sorry if you can’t take advantage of it. (Related: I recommend you 
consider using the "unstable" version regularly: I use it exclusively, for 
mission-critical day-to-day work as a professional composer and arranger, and 
have problems so seldom that I can say “never” and kind of mean it!)

> I’m guessing that you’re adding slurs to the individual notes of a chord (and 
> the \=1, \=2 is probably so that you can distinguish which rparen closes 
> which slur), and then you have two objects that can be tweaked individually. 
> Which would be a lot less hacky :)

Precisely so.

> One difference to my horrible hack (I think) is that in this case you’re 
> shifting a slur that was aligned to a beam, not to the note heads, so I 
> assume the slur will not follow the slight upwards slope from the b to the c. 
> (You could probably emulate that with some more tweaks or \shape.)

Actually, the slurs *do* [perhaps surprisingly!] align to the notehead — too 
closely, in fact, as you can see from the untweaked snippet:

%%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.80"

stuff = {
  16 8
  16 16
  16 8
}

\score {
  \stuff
}
%%%  SNIPPET ENDS

(If you need to, use lilybin.com to see this in the development version.)

Hope this helps!
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Lucas Werkmeister]

Hi Kieren, thanks for taking a look!

On 29.03.2018 01:52, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> Hi Lucas,
>
>> I did find one workaround, and I’ll describe it just in case someone else 
>> with the same problem finds this email later, but it is horrible:
> Here’s another… though I’m not sure it’s much less horrible:
>
> %%%  SNIPPET ENDS
> \version "2.19.80"
>
> stuff = {
>    Slur.extra-offset #'(0 . 0.6) \=2 ^(>16 8
>    Slur.extra-offset #'(0 . 0.6) \=2 ^(>16 16
>    Slur.extra-offset #'(0 . 0.6) \=2 ^(>16 8
> }
>
> \score {
>   \stuff
> }
> %%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
>
> Fortunately, this could relatively easily be function-ized… And likely, the 
> offset could be replaced with something automagic (instead of 
> trial-and-error). So maybe it’s a winner after all?
>
> Hope this helps!
> Kieren.
Hm, is this \=1 thing a new feature in the development version? I can’t
get it to work on 2.18.2.

I’m guessing that you’re adding slurs to the individual notes of a chord
(and the \=1, \=2 is probably so that you can distinguish which rparen
closes which slur), and then you have two objects that can be tweaked
individually. Which would be a lot less hacky :)

One difference to my horrible hack (I think) is that in this case you’re
shifting a slur that was aligned to a beam, not to the note heads, so I
assume the slur will not follow the slight upwards slope from the b to
the c. (You could probably emulate that with some more tweaks or \shape.)

Cheers,
Lucas
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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Lucas,

> I did find one workaround, and I’ll describe it just in case someone else 
> with the same problem finds this email later, but it is horrible:

Here’s another… though I’m not sure it’s much less horrible:

%%%  SNIPPET ENDS
\version "2.19.80"

stuff = {
  16 8
  16 16
  16 8
}

\score {
  \stuff
}
%%%  SNIPPET BEGINS

Fortunately, this could relatively easily be function-ized… And likely, the 
offset could be replaced with something automagic (instead of trial-and-error). 
So maybe it’s a winner after all?

Hope this helps!
Kieren.



Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Bernhard Ott]

On 02/27/2010 06:20 AM, musicologyman wrote:

I've been struggling to replicate the placement of slurs and ties in the
following original:

Problem is, I can't get the slurs and ties to appear _within_ the beamed
note. They always appear above the beam if the stem is up and below if
the stem is down:

I've tried all sorts of things: hidden notes shifted as appropriate in
order to position the slurs and ties in the desired location, hidden
notes within a context that has the Collision_engraver removed, and so
on. I've even considered manually (and tediously!) setting the control
points for each slur. But there must be a better way!

Here is my LilyPond code. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!!!

Try using the tilde symbol for notes of same pitch - you definitely want 
ties there ;-)


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/Writing-rhythms#Ties

HTH, Bernhard

P.S.: this is my second attempt - carboncopying to the list wasn't 
successful...



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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Colin Campbell]

musicologyman wrote:

  I've been struggling to replicate the placement of slurs and ties
in the following original:
  
  
  Problem is, I can't get the slurs and ties to appear _within_ the
beamed note. They always appear above the beam if the stem is up and
below if the stem is down:
  
  
  I've tried all sorts of things: hidden notes shifted as
appropriate in order to position the slurs and ties in the desired
location, hidden notes within a context that has the Collision_engraver
removed, and so on. I've even considered manually (and tediously!)
setting the control points for each slur. But there must be a better
way!
  
Here is my LilyPond code. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!!!
   
\version "2.12.2" 
 
mainVoice = \new Voice { 
  \relative c'' {  
\slurDown 
\set doubleSlurs = ##t 
#(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * * *) 1 8) 
#(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * * *) 3 8) 
#(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * * *) 4 8) 
\stemUp g d'8 (fis d')  g d' (fis d') \stemDown b d   
(c d) \stemUp b d (fis d') g d'8  
(fis d') g d' (fis d') \stemDown b d   
(c d) a d (b d) d g (d fis) 
#(revert-auto-beam-setting '(end * * * *) 1 8) 
#(revert-auto-beam-setting '(end * * * *) 3 8) 
#(revert-auto-beam-setting '(end * * * *) 4 8) 
  } 
} 
 
notes = { 
  \clef treble 
  \key g \major 
  \time 2/4 
  s8 * 3  
  \mainVoice 
} 
 
 
\score { 
  \new Staff  
  { 
\notes 
  } 
}
  
Thanks in advance for your help!
  
  
Richard Wattenbarger

You might find some ideas in the Notation Reference section 1.2.1 under
Ties. There is a snippet at the end which shows the use of the
tie-configuratoin property of TieColumn. Essentially, it allows you to
place your ties explicitly.

HTH
Colin


-- 
I stay cool and dig all jive, That's the way I stay alive. 
My motto, as I live and learn, is "Dig and be dug in return."
   - Langston Hughes





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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[musicologyman]

The tip on using the tie was helpful. Thanks, much! (I'd tried it before,
but for some reason, the tie didn't work. Or maybe I'm caught not seeing the
forest because of the trees)


I still have one issue to work out: I'd like to position the slur from a to
b (see the red box  red slur below) between the note heads. How can I
accomplish this?


http://old.nabble.com/file/p27730345/output.png 


Here is the relevant excerpt of my revised code:


\tieUp
\slurDown
\stemUp lt;g d'~gt;8 (lt;fis d'gt;)  lt;g d'~gt; (lt;fis d'gt;)
\stemDown lt;b d~gt;  
(lt;c dgt;) \stemUp lt;b d~gt; (lt;fis d'gt;) lt;g d'~gt;8 
(lt;fis d'gt;) lt;g d'~gt; (lt;fis d'gt;) \stemDown lt;b d~gt;  
(lt;c dgt;) \redSlur lt;a d~gt; (lt;b dgt;) \tieDown \slurUp
lt;d~ ggt; (lt;d fisgt;)
\syncBeamsOff


Again, thanks much.

musicologyman

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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi,

You might want to do something like this:

\version 2.12.1

stuff = \relative c'' {
  \time 2/4 \tieUp \slurDown
  \partial 8 \stemUp g d'~8(   |
  fis d') g d'~[( fis d']) \stemDown b d~(   |
  c d) \stemUp b d~[( fis d']) g d'~8(   |
  fis d') g d'~[( fis d']) \stemDown b d~(   |
  c d) a d~[-\tweak #'extra-offset #'(0.3 . 3) ( b d]) \tieDown \slurUp 
d~ g (d fis)
}

\score { \stuff }

Notice I also introduced the \partial (pickup), to accurately represent the 
music.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.

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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[musicologyman]

Thanks! That did the trick!

One question: what does the en-dash before the \tweak command mean/do?

--RW
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Re: double slurs within beamed notes

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi RW,

 Thanks! That did the trick!

Great.

 One question: what does the en-dash before the \tweak command mean/do?

Shouldn't be an en-dash; just a hyphen. Anyway, it's required to attach or 
anchor the \tweak to the moment (note) it belongs to, just like

g-

is used to attach/anchor an accent.

Cheers,
Kieren.

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