Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Saturday 06 March 2010 03:12:11 David Kastrup wrote: David Raleigh Arnold d...@openguitar.com writes: Ideally the volume should be preset for each instrument according to ratios expressing the relative natural loudness of the instrument, IOW set it and forget it, and only velocity should be used for dynamics. That is obviously the purpose of the design. Why fight it? No good can come from twiddling the volume in the middle of the performance. I have a (not quite cheap) Ketron Keyboard with a volume pedal. I was rather surprised to realize that putting it to zero would a) considerably lower the volume of notes already hit b) completely stop new notes from being sounded I would have thought that it would act more or less as a simple analog volume control, but it would appear that it _partially_ affects notes already hit. Interesting. I have not checked the corresponding Midi messages, though. Ha! The volumes should be part of the instrument specifications for any lilypond/midi document, and dynamics should relate to velocity alone. To do otherwise was a major mistake in the midi implementation in lilypond. It would be a very good idea to quit trying to make it work in some other way. Of course the solution to the problem is to instantiate a new voice, instrument and volume for every dynamic. Surely a lot of trouble for nothing. Regards, daveA ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Go right a head and implement your suggestion--- Lilypond is open source you know... ---hsm On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 8:38 AM, David Raleigh Arnold d...@openguitar.com wrote: On Saturday 06 March 2010 03:12:11 David Kastrup wrote: David Raleigh Arnold d...@openguitar.com writes: Ideally the volume should be preset for each instrument according to ratios expressing the relative natural loudness of the instrument, IOW set it and forget it, and only velocity should be used for dynamics. That is obviously the purpose of the design. Why fight it? No good can come from twiddling the volume in the middle of the performance. I have a (not quite cheap) Ketron Keyboard with a volume pedal. I was rather surprised to realize that putting it to zero would a) considerably lower the volume of notes already hit b) completely stop new notes from being sounded I would have thought that it would act more or less as a simple analog volume control, but it would appear that it _partially_ affects notes already hit. Interesting. I have not checked the corresponding Midi messages, though. Ha! The volumes should be part of the instrument specifications for any lilypond/midi document, and dynamics should relate to velocity alone. To do otherwise was a major mistake in the midi implementation in lilypond. It would be a very good idea to quit trying to make it work in some other way. Of course the solution to the problem is to instantiate a new voice, instrument and volume for every dynamic. Surely a lot of trouble for nothing. Regards, daveA ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
David Raleigh Arnold d...@openguitar.com writes: Ideally the volume should be preset for each instrument according to ratios expressing the relative natural loudness of the instrument, IOW set it and forget it, and only velocity should be used for dynamics. That is obviously the purpose of the design. Why fight it? No good can come from twiddling the volume in the middle of the performance. I have a (not quite cheap) Ketron Keyboard with a volume pedal. I was rather surprised to realize that putting it to zero would a) considerably lower the volume of notes already hit b) completely stop new notes from being sounded I would have thought that it would act more or less as a simple analog volume control, but it would appear that it _partially_ affects notes already hit. Interesting. I have not checked the corresponding Midi messages, though. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Am Samstag, 6. März 2010 08:47:56 schrieb David Raleigh Arnold: Ideally the volume should be preset for each instrument according to ratios expressing the relative natural loudness of the instrument, IOW set it and forget it, and only velocity should be used for dynamics. That is obviously the purpose of the design. Why fight it? No good can come from twiddling the volume in the middle of the performance. I know several choral pieces where the dynamics change on a single note. E.g. in Reutter's Ecce Quomodo there is a whole note with p on the first two beats and f on the last two beats. This cannot be expressed by velocity, which is modelled after a keyboard, but is unable to express dynamic changes other instruments are able to do. Similarly, an organ swell on a single note cannot be done with velocity, but only via volume. Cheers, Reinhod -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Am Samstag, 6. März 2010 09:12:11 schrieb David Kastrup: I have a (not quite cheap) Ketron Keyboard with a volume pedal. I was rather surprised to realize that putting it to zero would a) considerably lower the volume of notes already hit b) completely stop new notes from being sounded I would have thought that it would act more or less as a simple analog volume control, but it would appear that it _partially_ affects notes already hit. Interesting. If you are only used to playing piano then that might come as a surprise. But for any string or wind or organ player or singer it is just normal that the dynamics of ongoing notes can be changed, and e.g. the volume can be increased while a note is sounding. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Sat, 6 Mar 2010 11:40:32 +0100 Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com wrote: Am Samstag, 6. März 2010 09:12:11 schrieb David Kastrup: I have a (not quite cheap) Ketron Keyboard with a volume pedal. I was rather surprised to realize that putting it to zero would a) considerably lower the volume of notes already hit b) completely stop new notes from being sounded I would have thought that it would act more or less as a simple analog volume control, but it would appear that it _partially_ affects notes already hit. Interesting. If you are only used to playing piano then that might come as a surprise. But for any string or wind or organ player or singer it is just normal that the dynamics of ongoing notes can be changed, and e.g. the volume can be increased while a note is sounding. In addition, your pedal is probably sending expression messages (CC11) by default. Just as an aside: when I code a (de)crescendo in MIDI, I use a combination of velocity and expression. Velocity, as said before not only influences the relative perception of volume but also changes the timbre of most instruments. I only ever adjust volume (CC7) for mix purposes on an over-all basis, never as a continuous controller. my $.02 ... David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
2010/3/6 Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com: Am Samstag, 6. März 2010 08:47:56 schrieb David Raleigh Arnold: Ideally the volume should be preset for each instrument according to ratios expressing the relative natural loudness of the instrument, IOW set it and forget it, and only velocity should be used for dynamics. That is obviously the purpose of the design. Why fight it? No good can come from twiddling the volume in the middle of the performance. I know several choral pieces where the dynamics change on a single note. E.g. in Reutter's Ecce Quomodo there is a whole note with p on the first two beats and f on the last two beats. This cannot be expressed by velocity, which is modelled after a keyboard, but is unable to express dynamic changes other instruments are able to do. Similarly, an organ swell on a single note cannot be done with velocity, but only via volume. there are also channel pressure and polyphonic pressure. Not much used and not very compatible, though -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Thursday 04 March 2010 18:36:01 Philippe Hezaine wrote: Martin Tarenskeen a écrit : On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, David Raleigh Arnold wrote: So why on earth is conversion from velocity to volume in decibels an issue? If you are using ppp pp p mp mf f ff fff why convert at all? Just use velocity. Regards, daveA That was not the issue being discussed here. When we are talking about Velocity and Volume we are talking - at least in this thread - about two different specific MIDI messages. Velocity is a 7 bit value (0~127) that is part of a MIDI Note-On or MIDI Note-Off message. Each single note has such a value in a MIDI stream. Volume is one of the MIDI Control Change messages, Nr. 7 to be exactly. These can not be specified for each single note, but for each of the 16 MIDI channels. Velocity and Volume are used for different purposes in MIDI sequencers and MIDI files. Currently if Lilypond scores are exported as MIDI files, the ppp mf ff and so on are written as MIDI Volume values, not as MIDI Velocity values. In many cases MIDI Velocity messages are more suitable to translate such dynamics into MIDI. That's why people are interested in that conversion script. (including me) Here are excerpts of discussions with Dominic Sacré when I used mididings instead of midicomp. The problem you're probably noticing here is that CC7 (and all other controllers) always pertain to a whole MIDI channel. The only way to have two notes at the same time on the same channel, but with different volumes, is to use the note-on velocities (as you know). The volume controller doesn't interact with individual notes at all. It just changes the volume immediately, affecting all notes on the respective channel, even those which are already playing at that time. ... all tracks in your MIDI file are on the same channel, so CC #7 messages on one track will affect the other tracks as well. Hope this helps to understand some differences between CC7 (volume) and velocities. Cheers. It couldn't be simpler. Ideally the volume should be preset for each instrument according to ratios expressing the relative natural loudness of the instrument, IOW set it and forget it, and only velocity should be used for dynamics. That is obviously the purpose of the design. Why fight it? No good can come from twiddling the volume in the middle of the performance. Regards, daveA -- For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists. http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Tuesday 02 March 2010 19:03:26 Peter Chubb wrote: bachelet == bachelet w...@theps.net writes: bachelet any luck finding this script, I'd like to use it, too It was in this mailing list, at http://www.mail-archive.com/bug-lilyp...@gnu.org/msg03960.html Peter C The velocity is the speed at which a midi keyboard key is moving just before, ideally exactly when, it hits bottom. If the midi keyboard measured how hard the key hit bottom, the instrument would be beaten to pieces in short order. The velocity can be measured by electronic or electric means, so the measurement is not much affected by physical wear. The absolute volume is proportional to the energy of the hit, which is proportional to the square of the velocity. But if the volume is measured in decibels, it is proportional to the velocity. So why on earth is conversion from velocity to volume in decibels an issue? If you are using ppp pp p mp mf f ff fff why convert at all? Just use velocity. Regards, daveA -- For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists. http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, David Raleigh Arnold wrote: So why on earth is conversion from velocity to volume in decibels an issue? If you are using ppp pp p mp mf f ff fff why convert at all? Just use velocity. Regards, daveA That was not the issue being discussed here. When we are talking about Velocity and Volume we are talking - at least in this thread - about two different specific MIDI messages. Velocity is a 7 bit value (0~127) that is part of a MIDI Note-On or MIDI Note-Off message. Each single note has such a value in a MIDI stream. Volume is one of the MIDI Control Change messages, Nr. 7 to be exactly. These can not be specified for each single note, but for each of the 16 MIDI channels. Velocity and Volume are used for different purposes in MIDI sequencers and MIDI files. Currently if Lilypond scores are exported as MIDI files, the ppp mf ff and so on are written as MIDI Volume values, not as MIDI Velocity values. In many cases MIDI Velocity messages are more suitable to translate such dynamics into MIDI. That's why people are interested in that conversion script. (including me) -- Martin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Martin Tarenskeen a écrit : On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, David Raleigh Arnold wrote: So why on earth is conversion from velocity to volume in decibels an issue? If you are using ppp pp p mp mf f ff fff why convert at all? Just use velocity. Regards, daveA That was not the issue being discussed here. When we are talking about Velocity and Volume we are talking - at least in this thread - about two different specific MIDI messages. Velocity is a 7 bit value (0~127) that is part of a MIDI Note-On or MIDI Note-Off message. Each single note has such a value in a MIDI stream. Volume is one of the MIDI Control Change messages, Nr. 7 to be exactly. These can not be specified for each single note, but for each of the 16 MIDI channels. Velocity and Volume are used for different purposes in MIDI sequencers and MIDI files. Currently if Lilypond scores are exported as MIDI files, the ppp mf ff and so on are written as MIDI Volume values, not as MIDI Velocity values. In many cases MIDI Velocity messages are more suitable to translate such dynamics into MIDI. That's why people are interested in that conversion script. (including me) Here are excerpts of discussions with Dominic Sacré when I used mididings instead of midicomp. The problem you're probably noticing here is that CC7 (and all other controllers) always pertain to a whole MIDI channel. The only way to have two notes at the same time on the same channel, but with different volumes, is to use the note-on velocities (as you know). The volume controller doesn't interact with individual notes at all. It just changes the volume immediately, affecting all notes on the respective channel, even those which are already playing at that time. ... all tracks in your MIDI file are on the same channel, so CC #7 messages on one track will affect the other tracks as well. Hope this helps to understand some differences between CC7 (volume) and velocities. Cheers. -- Phil. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
bachelet == bachelet w...@theps.net writes: bachelet any luck finding this script, I'd like to use it, too It was in this mailing list, at http://www.mail-archive.com/bug-lilyp...@gnu.org/msg03960.html Peter C ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
any luck finding this script, I'd like to use it, too philippe hezaine wrote: Hi, Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. That's a bug then. Musically \p means velocity change and not volume. Where do you find this perl script? I have no success in my search. Thanks. -- Phil. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/dynamic-and-midi-velocity-tp27633725p27759370.html Sent from the Gnu - Lilypond - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Brett McCoy a écrit :
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Peter Chubb
lily.u...@chubb.wattle.id.au wrote:
I had a quick look at what it would take to generate notes with
different velocities instead of just CC 7 events. It's harder than it
should be: dynamic events always come after the notes they affect, so
I couldn't see an obvious/easy way to get the current dynamics while
processing a note, ...
Sorry for my bad English but may be this can help you.
When I was beginning the Drummer's Gigsaw I was using mididings which
is a Python app. It takes me a lot of time to understand why I always
get a few errors when I processed CC7-to-velocity.py (a script Dominic
Sacré especially wrote for this case). Finally I had to give up
mididings because it was unable to convert the midi output of Lilypond
which is not clean (an odd thing (bug?)). Dominic's answer was: Nothing
to do with mididings in this case. Fortunately I found midicomp.
In the current Gigsaw's ugly hack I've found a solution. Here is the
excerpt in question:
lancer midicomp pour obtenir le ascii
Launch midicomp and get the ascii
:silent! !midicomp -vt MY-SONG.midi MY-SONG.asc
:w!
Ouvrir le .asc
Open the .asc
:gvim MY-SONG.asc
A cause d'une bizarrerie dans la sortie midi de Lilypond, rectifier
l'ordre d'apparition des Param
Because of an odd thing (bug?) in the Lilypond's midi output, I
correct the range of Param
:silent! g/\(.*\)On.*\n\1Param/normal ddp
:w!
Seulement maintenant copier les valeurs des Param vers les Note On
Now i can paste the Param values to the Note On
autre commande possible
one another command
:g/On/s/127/\=matchstr(getline(line('.')-1), 'val=\zs\d\+')
:silent! %s/val=\(\d\+\).*\n.*On.*vol=\zs\d\+/\1/
:w!
Effacer toutes les lignes Param
Delete all the Param line
:silent! g/Param/d
:w!
Retransformer le ascii en midi en l'envoyant dans MA-BASE
Transform again the .asc to midi MY-BASE
:silent! !midicomp -c MY-SONG.asc MY-SONG.midi
...nor is it obvious to me how to get at notes in the
same voice as a dynamic indication at the same timestep.
In the Gigsaw each element of a chord burst out in its own variable,
hence a track for each drums instrument (or Voice, here I mean Voice in
a musical sense, ie. a fugue with 4 voices). It becomes a linear format.
Nor is it obvioous to me how to tell which voices dynamic indications
should be applied to. Sometimes they should be for several (e.g.,
centered piano dynamics), sometimes just to the voice they are
attached to. And there's still the issue of handling what instruments
are capable of, and adjusting expression accordingly.
There are three classes of instruments I can think of:
1. Instruments that play at a fixed volume no matter what you do:
-- harpsichord, most organ stops, recorder, etc.
2. Instruments where the volume is determined at the start of a
note, but you can't change it afterwards:
-- piano, clavichord, most percussion, plucked strings, etc.
3. Instruments that can change volume anywhere -- most woodwinds and brass,
swell stops on the organ, etc.
So I'm leaving it in the `too hard' basket for now.
... [skip]
-- Brett
Cheers.
--
Phil.
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Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Bertalan == Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) lilypondt...@organum.hu writes: Tim Reeves wrote: Peter Chubb wrote: Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. Bertalan That's a bug then. Musically \p means velocity Bertalan change and not volume. Tim Bert, Tim I'm curious what you mean by this comment. \p does not Tim mean low volume but low velocity? Do you mean you use (when Tim you play an instrument) a low velocity (air velocity, Tim velocity of striking a key or drum, velocity of bowing, Tim etc.) in order to create a low volume (sound level) and so Tim it's the velocity that you have to control? Bertalan I definitely talk about playing a keyboard instrument. It is Bertalan quite easy to feel the difference between volume and Bertalan velocity if you think about that: Bertalan When you see p in the score, you play with less force on the Bertalan keys, with lower velocity. When you see ff in the score, Bertalan you play with much force on the keys, with high velocity. That depends on the keyboard. On the organ I've sometimes played, how hard you press the notes does asolutely nothing; to control volume you use the swell pedal (and it works only on some stops). There's also several milliseconds delay between playing a note and hearing it, which is `interesting' to say the least. I thnk the MIDI designers were mostly thinking about pianos when they designed the protocols; CC11 for expression feels like an afterthought. Peter C ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:54:06 +1100 pe...@chubb.wattle.id.au wrote: Bertalan When you see p in the score, you play with less force on the Bertalan keys, with lower velocity. When you see ff in the score, Bertalan you play with much force on the keys, with high velocity. That depends on the keyboard. On the organ I've sometimes played, how hard you press the notes does asolutely nothing; to control volume you use the swell pedal (and it works only on some stops). There's also several milliseconds delay between playing a note and hearing it, which is `interesting' to say the least. I thnk the MIDI designers were mostly thinking about pianos when they designed the protocols; CC11 for expression feels like an afterthought. Maybe so, but expression (cc11) is essential in expressing (no pun intended) dynamic variations from one note to the next in the context of an overall (cc7) volume. Obviously velocity differences between notes can also represent changes in dynamics but sustained (de)crescendos need continuous controllers. David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
miquel parera a écrit : Hello. I want translate the dynamics of one note (\, \ff etc) to midi velocity values (0-127) I'ts possible? Thanks. Look at midi.scm in /usr/share/Lilypond HTH. -- Phil. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Philippe Hezaine a écrit :
miquel parera a écrit :
Hello.
I want translate the dynamics of one note (\, \ff etc) to midi
velocity values (0-127) I'ts possible?
Thanks.
Look at midi.scm in /usr/share/Lilypond
HTH.
...or put this in a .ly file and call it with an \include (Thanks to
Nicolas Sceaux):
#(define my-dynamic-absolute-volume
(let ((absolute-volume-alist '((sf . 1.00)
(f . 0.95)
( . 0.91)
(fff . 0.83)
(ff . 0.75)
(f . 0.67)
(mf . 0.60)
(mp . 0.53)
(p . 0.46)
(pp . 0.39)
(ppp . 0.32)
( . 0.25)
(p . 0.12
(lambda (s)
(let ((entry (assoc s absolute-volume-alist)))
(if entry
(cdr entry))
You have to add a \context in midi block in your .ly file like this:
\midi {
\context {
\Score
dynamicAbsoluteVolumeFunction = #my-dynamic-absolute-volume
}
}
Notice the values are scm values.
Have fun.
--
Phil.
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Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Peter Chubb wrote: miquel == miquel parera computer.music.n...@gmail.com writes: miquel I want translate the dynamics of one note (\, \ff etc) to miquel midi velocity values (0-127) I'ts possible? Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. That's a bug then. Musically \p means velocity change and not volume. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Hi, Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. That's a bug then. Musically \p means velocity change and not volume. Where do you find this perl script? I have no success in my search. Thanks. -- Phil. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Tim Reeves wrote: Peter Chubb wrote: Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. That's a bug then. Musically \p means velocity change and not volume. Bert, I'm curious what you mean by this comment. \p does not mean low volume but low velocity? Do you mean you use (when you play an instrument) a low velocity (air velocity, velocity of striking a key or drum, velocity of bowing, etc.) in order to create a low volume (sound level) and so it's the velocity that you have to control? I definitely talk about playing a keyboard instrument. It is quite easy to feel the difference between volume and velocity if you think about that: When you see p in the score, you play with less force on the keys, with lower velocity. When you see ff in the score, you play with much force on the keys, with high velocity. But you don't touch the volume control in either case. I suppose :) Bert ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
2010/2/18 Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) lilypondt...@organum.hu: I definitely talk about playing a keyboard instrument. It is quite easy to feel the difference between volume and velocity if you think about that: When you see p in the score, you play with less force on the keys, with lower velocity. When you see ff in the score, you play with much force on the keys, with high velocity. But you don't touch the volume control in either case. I suppose :) Yes. Also think on a loudly played record of the sound of a piano played \p. Clearly it's not the same as a softly played sound record of a piano played \f. Most MIDI sound generators change its sound with velocity, so that the per-note brilliance raises with velocity, making the instrument sound more natural. I think that's why \p and \f should generate per-note velocities. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) lilypondt...@organum.hu wrote: I definitely talk about playing a keyboard instrument. It is quite easy to feel the difference between volume and velocity if you think about that: When you see p in the score, you play with less force on the keys, with lower velocity. When you see ff in the score, you play with much force on the keys, with high velocity. But you don't touch the volume control in either case. I suppose :) Generally, for MIDI sequencing, velocity is used to control volume for single notes that don't change (like an acoustic piano or percussion instruments) -- the loudness of the note will remain the same for the entire note. You really want to use expression (CC#11) for instruments that can change loudness over the course of a note (like a dimenuendo or crescendo in a string section), and volume (CC#7) is best used to control the overall volume of the entire track (like would be used in a volume slider on a mixer). Many playback synths (especially samplers) will have different recorded sounds playback based on the velocity, so when you play a ppp you will get a note that has a different sound quality than a note played at fff. You don't get this using volume or expression. -- Brett In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world. -- Jelaleddin Rumi ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:16:05 +0100 From: Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool) lilypondt...@organum.hu Subject: Re: dynamic and midi velocity To: Peter Chubb lily.u...@chubb.wattle.id.au Cc: miquel parera computer.music.n...@gmail.com, lilypond-user@gnu.org Message-ID: 4b7d1365.1030...@organum.hu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Peter Chubb wrote: miquel == miquel parera computer.music.n...@gmail.com writes: miquel I want translate the dynamics of one note (\, \ff etc) to miquel midi velocity values (0-127) I'ts possible? Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. That's a bug then. Musically \p means velocity change and not volume. Bert, I'm curious what you mean by this comment. \p does not mean low volume but low velocity? Do you mean you use (when you play an instrument) a low velocity (air velocity, velocity of striking a key or drum, velocity of bowing, etc.) in order to create a low volume (sound level) and so it's the velocity that you have to control? AFAIK, MIDI velocity corresponds to the velocity of striking a key on a keyboard instrument (since that is what MIDI is usually controlled by, and modeled after) which is why things like pitch bends and other non-keyboard instrument specific effects are hard or impossible to represent in MIDI. When I play the horn, I don't consciously think low velocity when I see a 'p' in my part. I think 'play soft'. My body reacts by reducing the velocity (and volume) of air going into the horn, but I wouldn't say it's a bug that I think 'p'=low volume or soft. Bottom line, in *MIDI*, \p means velocity change and not volume. But *musically*, \p means low volume. MIDI is not music, but that's another discussion. ;-) (There's a book out now, 'You Are Not a Gadget', that talks briefly about the limitations of MIDI and how we're kind of stuck with them since we enshrined MIDI as a standard.) Tim Reeves ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
Bertalan When you see p in the score, you play with less force on the Bertalan keys, with lower velocity. When you see ff in the score, Bertalan you play with much force on the keys, with high velocity. That depends on the keyboard. On the organ I've sometimes played, how hard you press the notes does asolutely nothing; to control volume you use the swell pedal (and it works only on some stops). There's also several milliseconds delay between playing a note and hearing it, which is `interesting' to say the least. I thnk the MIDI designers were mostly thinking about pianos when they designed the protocols; CC11 for expression feels like an afterthought. Well, the Schwellwerk itself is an afterthought :) Bert ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
I had a quick look at what it would take to generate notes with different velocities instead of just CC 7 events. It's harder than it should be: dynamic events always come after the notes they affect, so I couldn't see an obvious/easy way to get the current dynamics while processing a note, nor is it obvious to me how to get at notes in the same voice as a dynamic indication at the same timestep. Nor is it obvioous to me how to tell which voices dynamic indications should be applied to. Sometimes they should be for several (e.g., centered piano dynamics), sometimes just to the voice they are attached to. And there's still the issue of handling what instruments are capable of, and adjusting expression accordingly. There are three classes of instruments I can think of: 1. Instruments that play at a fixed volume no matter what you do: -- harpsichord, most organ stops, recorder, etc. 2. Instruments where the volume is determined at the start of a note, but you can't change it afterwards: -- piano, clavichord, most percussion, plucked strings, etc. 3. Instruments that can change volume anywhere -- most woodwinds and brass, swell stops on the organ, etc. So I'm leaving it in the `too hard' basket for now. Peter C -- Dr Peter Chubb peter DOT chubb AT nicta.com.au http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au ERTOS within National ICT Australia All things shall perish from under the sky/Music alone shall live, never to die ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Peter Chubb lily.u...@chubb.wattle.id.au wrote: I had a quick look at what it would take to generate notes with different velocities instead of just CC 7 events. It's harder than it should be: dynamic events always come after the notes they affect, so I couldn't see an obvious/easy way to get the current dynamics while processing a note, nor is it obvious to me how to get at notes in the same voice as a dynamic indication at the same timestep. Nor is it obvioous to me how to tell which voices dynamic indications should be applied to. Sometimes they should be for several (e.g., centered piano dynamics), sometimes just to the voice they are attached to. And there's still the issue of handling what instruments are capable of, and adjusting expression accordingly. There are three classes of instruments I can think of: 1. Instruments that play at a fixed volume no matter what you do: -- harpsichord, most organ stops, recorder, etc. 2. Instruments where the volume is determined at the start of a note, but you can't change it afterwards: -- piano, clavichord, most percussion, plucked strings, etc. 3. Instruments that can change volume anywhere -- most woodwinds and brass, swell stops on the organ, etc. So I'm leaving it in the `too hard' basket for now. I think you've hit the same issue that WYSIWYG notation programs hit -- it's hard to get good performance data directly from notation to MIDI. Speaking from my own experience, using a linear sequencer to hand tweak performance data (velocity, expression, volume, not to mention humanizing the notes so they don't sound mechanical) will always give you better results. I am currently taking some composing courses via Berklee college (yes, and using Lilypond for all of my classwork!), and the overriding philosophy on this is to do notation with the notation editor and use a sequencer like Digital Performer or Cubase for the performance (in my case, I am using Rosegarden for sequencing). It's a lot more work, but it's worth it, IMHO. -- Brett In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world. -- Jelaleddin Rumi ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamic and midi velocity
miquel == miquel parera computer.music.n...@gmail.com writes: miquel I want translate the dynamics of one note (\, \ff etc) to miquel midi velocity values (0-127) I'ts possible? Lilypond uses a separate volume channel, rather than velocity, to control MIDI dynamics. There's a perl script `ConvertToVeolcity.perl' that can convert the midi output and add velocity info to each note. -- Dr Peter Chubb peter DOT chubb AT nicta.com.au http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au ERTOS within National ICT Australia All things shall perish from under the sky/Music alone shall live, never to die ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
