Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Karl Hammar:
Xavier Scheuer:
On 31 December 2012 15:22, Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se wrote:
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
...
\Ms \Ds % without the \\
will behave as if you wrote the dynamics together with the notes.
Same thing, the dynamics are centered under the left edge of the notes.
...
This looks like a bug.
\version 2.17.10
Ms = \relative a' { c4 c c c | }
Ds = \relative a' { s\p s s\f s | }
Ma = \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c }
\score {
\new Staff \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c | \Ms \Ds | }
\new Staff { \Ma | \Ms \Ds | }
}
The difference between above two staffs is that in the top staff
the music is written out, and in the bottom the music comes from a
variable.
The pdf shows that \Ms \Ds is ok in the top staff but not
in the bottom.
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
James Bailey:
On Dec 31, 2012, at 3:22 PM, Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se wrote:
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
... [ ly code for Ms and Ds ] ...
If I use \Ms \\ \Ds the dynamics will come out to the left
(compared to the in the notes version), probably since the dynamics
are centered under the notes and a skip doesn't have a width (?).
If I use \new Dynamics the dynamics will come out fine but the markups
comes out int the wrong line place (since it doesn't belong to the notes
staff any longer) and the dynamics comes too close to the lyrics
just below.
...
I use almost exactly your configuration for vocal music with just a few
modifications.
1) \new Dynamics
2) (as needed) alignAboveContext
A simple example would be:
\version 2.16.0
global = { \tempo 4=120 }
vocal = \relative c' { c4 d e f }
vocalDynamics = { s4\f s8\ s\! s\ s\! s4\p }
vocalText = \lyricmode { This is some text }
\score {
\new Staff = vocal
\new Voice = vocal \global \vocal
\new Dynamics \with {alignAboveContext = vocal } \vocalDynamics
\new Lyrics \lyricsto vocal \vocalText
\layout {}
}
You can simplify the above \score part to:
\score {
\new Dynamics \vocalDynamics
\new Staff = vocal \new Voice = vocal \global \vocal
\new Lyrics \lyricsto vocal \vocalText
\layout {}
}
///
Yes, you can place the dynamics above the staff, but I don't really see the
point of that. Now your forte collides with the tempo mark. And in choir notes
it would only solve any potential collisions between dynamics and lyrics for
one staff only.
And it doesn't solve the \Ms \Ds bug, merely avoids it by using
\new Dynamics.
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
k...@aspodata.se (Karl Hammar) writes:
Karl Hammar:
Xavier Scheuer:
On 31 December 2012 15:22, Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se wrote:
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
...
\Ms \Ds % without the \\
will behave as if you wrote the dynamics together with the notes.
Same thing, the dynamics are centered under the left edge of the notes.
...
This looks like a bug.
\version 2.17.10
Ms = \relative a' { c4 c c c | }
Ds = \relative a' { s\p s s\f s | }
Ma = \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c }
\score {
\new Staff \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c | \Ms \Ds | }
\new Staff { \Ma | \Ms \Ds | }
}
The difference between above two staffs is that in the top staff
the music is written out, and in the bottom the music comes from a
variable.
Uh, no? The difference is that in the top staff, there are isolated
note events starting an implicit Voice, while in the bottom staff, there
is no isolated event but rather a sequential music expression that gets
its _own_ \new Voice ending at the closing brace. If you had written
wrote
{ { c4\p c c\f c } | \Ms \Ds }
above, you'd have gotten the same. Note that | is just a barcheck and
not an event starting (or maintaining) a new voice. So \Ms starts its
own, new voice, and then \Ds does as well.
Of course, if you wrote \new Voice everywhere where you write \new Staff
now, LilyPond would have put everything into the same Voice either way.
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
- Original Message - From: Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 11:35 AM Subject: Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry Yes, you can place the dynamics above the staff, but I don't really see the point of that. Now your forte collides with the tempo mark. And in choir notes it would only solve any potential collisions between dynamics and lyrics for one staff only. The point of doing it is that it's the correct way to do it. We singers like to have clear lyrics, since we need to assimilate them quickly when sight reading. Dynamics are less important - we get shouted at concerning the important ones and ignore the rest. Gould, page 434: Dynamics, expression marks and verbal instructions go above the stave in order to leave space below the stave clear for the sung text. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes: From: Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se Yes, you can place the dynamics above the staff, but I don't really see the point of that. Now your forte collides with the tempo mark. And in choir notes it would only solve any potential collisions between dynamics and lyrics for one staff only. The point of doing it is that it's the correct way to do it. We singers like to have clear lyrics, since we need to assimilate them quickly when sight reading. Dynamics are less important - we get shouted at concerning the important ones and ignore the rest. Isn't there a too missing at the end of that sentence? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Phil Holmes: Yes, you can place the dynamics above the staff, but I don't really see the point of that. Now your forte collides with the tempo mark. And in choir notes it would only solve any potential collisions between dynamics and lyrics for one staff only. The point of doing it is that it's the correct way to do it. Please spare me of the correct way to do thing. I'm interested in rationales and information about conventions. That doesn't mean I have to follow them. Though I don't mind making it easy to follow conventions, at least as an option and if it is not to much work. We singers like to have clear lyrics, since we need to assimilate them quickly when sight reading. Dynamics are less important - we get shouted at concerning the important ones and ignore the rest. It all depends on what end you are pursuing then? Maybe I should remove the lyrics to make the choir respect the rhytmics and dynamics. Gould, page 434: Dynamics, expression marks and verbal instructions go above the stave in order to leave space below the stave clear for the sung text. Thanks for the citation. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
David Kastrup:
k...@aspodata.se (Karl Hammar) writes:
...
This looks like a bug.
\version 2.17.10
Ms = \relative a' { c4 c c c | }
Ds = \relative a' { s\p s s\f s | }
Ma = \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c }
\score {
\new Staff \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c | \Ms \Ds | }
\new Staff { \Ma | \Ms \Ds | }
}
The difference between above two staffs is that in the top staff
the music is written out, and in the bottom the music comes from a
variable.
Uh, no? The difference is that in the top staff, there are isolated
note events starting an implicit Voice, while in the bottom staff, there
is no isolated event but rather a sequential music expression that gets
its _own_ \new Voice ending at the closing brace. If you had written
wrote
{ { c4\p c c\f c } | \Ms \Ds }
above, you'd have gotten the same.
Ok, if I use
\new Staff { \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c } | \Ms \Ds | }
\new Staff { \Ma | \Ms \Ds | }
I get two same-looking staffs.
Note that | is just a barcheck and
Known.
not an event starting (or maintaining) a new voice. So \Ms starts its
own, new voice, and then \Ds does as well.
Is there any way or tool to identify what voices gets created and their
names, or rather it would be nice to get a optional warning when implicit
voices are created so I can track them down, they seem to be a pain ?
Of course, if you wrote \new Voice everywhere where you write \new Staff
now, LilyPond would have put everything into the same Voice either way.
Ok, if I write
\new Staff \context Voice = Vs { \relative a' { c4\p c c\f c | \Ms \Ds
| } }
\new Staff \context Voice = Va { \Ma | \Ms \Ds | }
I get what I want.
///
So from what I understand, to make \Ms and \Ds to show up nice, they
have to be in the same voice. Which
Ms = \context Voice = Va \relative a' { c4 c c c | }
Ds = \context Voice = Va \relative a' { s\p s s\f s | }
\score \new Staff { \Ms \Ds }
exemplifies, and the example in the previous mail is then just
user error.
///
In Documentation/out-www/internals.pdf / 2.1.29 Voice:
Corresponds to a voice on a staff. This context handles the
conversion of dynamic signs, stems, beams, super- and subscripts,
slurs, ties, and rests.
You have to instantiate this explicitly if you want to have
multiple voices on the same staff.
This wording does not sound true if there are a lot of implicit voice
creation (in my mind only \new Voice is explicit).
Searching for implicit voice in notation.pdf / learning.pdf doesn't
yield anything.
So by guessing what creates voices are:
\new Voice { }
{ } { }
{ } \\ { }
in a Staff a voice is implcitly created in cases like \new Staff { c }
Any more cases?
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
David Kastrup: Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net writes: From: Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se Yes, you can place the dynamics above the staff, but I don't really see the point of that. Now your forte collides with the tempo mark. And in choir notes it would only solve any potential collisions between dynamics and lyrics for one staff only. The point of doing it is that it's the correct way to do it. We singers like to have clear lyrics, since we need to assimilate them quickly when sight reading. Dynamics are less important - we get shouted at concerning the important ones and ignore the rest. Isn't there a too missing at the end of that sentence? That is my impression too. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
- Original Message -
From: Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:22 PM
Subject: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
smorz = \markup { \italic smorz }
sotto = \markup { \italic { sotto voce } }
Ds = {
s1*10 | s1^\sotto | s4 s2.\f | s4 s2.^\smorz | s1\p | s1\pp | s1*2 |
s2 s\ | s4 s8. s16\f\ s4 s8.\! s16 | s2 s\pp |
% ...
}
Ms = \context Voice = Vs \relative a' {
%\keya
R1*8 |
R1*2 |
e2\( fis | % 3 11
gis8\) r gis4\( gis gis\) |
a8 r a4\( d d\) |
c2\( a\) |
a2.\( gis4\) | % 4 15
a8 r r4 r2 |
% ...
}
///
If I use \Ms \\ \Ds the dynamics will come out to the left
(compared to the in the notes version), probably since the dynamics
are centered under the notes and a skip doesn't have a width (?).
If I use \new Dynamics the dynamics will come out fine but the markups
comes out int the wrong line place (since it doesn't belong to the notes
staff any longer) and the dynamics comes too close to the lyrics
just below.
I could possible use \partcombine \Ms \Ds, whith
ignore = \override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
Ds = \relative a' {
s1*10 | s1^\sotto | s4 \once\ignore g\f s2 |
% ...
}
but it seems a little too much dependend on the notes in Ms.
///
I'm trying to set Gioachino Rossinis petite messe solennelle [1] and
I have got to the Kyrie, i.e. I've just started. I'm using the
Brandus Dufur edition [2] (probable 1869 according to [3]).
The definitive modern edition seems to be [4], the editor has some
notes at [5].
I've not tested this, but would suggest creating your text markings as shown
in
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-attached-to-notes#new-dynamic-marks
--
Phil Holmes
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
On 31 December 2012 15:22, Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se wrote: How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the dynamics together with the notes? (snip) If I use \Ms \\ \Ds the dynamics will come out to the left (compared to the in the notes version), probably since the dynamics are centered under the notes and a skip doesn't have a width (?). Hi, \Ms \Ds % without the \\ will behave as if you wrote the dynamics together with the notes. Which version are you using? There used to be an issue that made dynamics attached to spacer rests come out to the left (compared to attached directly to the notes), but it has been fixed in LilyPond version 2.15.24. https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1861 Since current stable version is 2.16.1, you should not have encountered this issue, unless you are using a very old version. Cheers, Xavier -- Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Phil Holmes:
...
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
smorz = \markup { \italic smorz }
sotto = \markup { \italic { sotto voce } }
Ds = {
s1*10 | s1^\sotto | s4 s2.\f | s4 s2.^\smorz | s1\p | s1\pp | s1*2 |
s2 s\ | s4 s8. s16\f\ s4 s8.\! s16 | s2 s\pp |
% ...
}
Ms = \context Voice = Vs \relative a' {
%\keya
R1*8 |
R1*2 |
e2\( fis | % 3 11
gis8\) r gis4\( gis gis\) |
a8 r a4\( d d\) |
c2\( a\) |
a2.\( gis4\) | % 4 15
a8 r r4 r2 |
% ...
}
...
I've not tested this, but would suggest creating your text markings as shown
in
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-attached-to-notes#new-dynamic-marks
s4_\markup{ \dynamic f}\ does not work well, otherwise it works well.
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Xavier Scheuer:
On 31 December 2012 15:22, Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se wrote:
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
(snip)
If I use \Ms \\ \Ds the dynamics will come out to the left
(compared to the in the notes version), probably since the dynamics
are centered under the notes and a skip doesn't have a width (?).
Hi,
\Ms \Ds % without the \\
will behave as if you wrote the dynamics together with the notes.
Same thing, the dynamics are centered under the left edge of the notes.
The attached example shows:
for \new Dynamics:
the forte is squeesed between note and lyrics
for within the notes:
p and f does not line up well
for \Mb \Ds :
the p and f are displaced to the left
for the markup version:
s_\markup{ \dynamic f }\ becomes above each other
I think I like the \new Dynamics version best if I could get the same
space above and under the dynamics as for the within notes case.
Note, the hairpin ends in the same place.
Which version are you using?
$ lilypond --version
GNU LilyPond 2.17.10
Switched today from
$ lilypond --version
GNU LilyPond 2.15.39
There used to be an issue that made dynamics attached to spacer rests
come out to the left (compared to attached directly to the notes),
but it has been fixed in LilyPond version 2.15.24.
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1861
That example worked without a problem.
Since current stable version is 2.16.1, you should not have
encountered this issue, unless you are using a very old version.
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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a.pdf
Description: a.pdf
\version 2.17.10
Ls = \lyricmode { Kyr -- i -- e }
La = \lyricmode { Kyr -- i -- e }
Lt = \lyricmode { Kyr -- i -- e }
Lb = \lyricmode { Kyr -- i -- e }
Ds = {
s4\p s\f\ s\! s
}
Ms = \context Voice = Vs \relative a' {
a4 b c d^\markup{ with \\new Dynamics } |
}
Ma = \context Voice = Va \relative a' {
a4\p b\f\ c\! d^\markup{ within the notes } |
}
Mt = \context Voice = Vt \relative a' {
a4 b c d^\markup{ as \Mt \Ds } |
}
Db = {
s4_\markup{ \dynamic p } s_\markup{ \dynamic f}\ s\! s
}
Mb = \context Voice = Vb \relative a' {
a4 b c d^\markup{ with the forte as a markup } |
}
\score {
\new ChoirStaff
\new Staff { \Ms }
\new Dynamics = Ds \Ds
\lyricsto Vs \context Lyrics = Ls{ \Ls }
\new Staff { \Ma }
\lyricsto Va \context Lyrics = La{ \La }
\new Staff \Mt \Ds
\lyricsto Vt \context Lyrics = Lt{ \Lt }
\new Staff \Mb \Db
\lyricsto Vt \context Lyrics = Lb{ \Lb }
}
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Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
- Original Message - From: Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 5:01 PM Subject: Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry I think I like the \new Dynamics version best if I could get the same space above and under the dynamics as for the within notes case. As a general rule (and this would appear to include the music you're setting) dynamics for singers are put above the staff, to avoid problems of collision with lyrics. Have you considered this? -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Phil Holmes: I think I like the \new Dynamics version best if I could get the same space above and under the dynamics as for the within notes case. As a general rule (and this would appear to include the music you're setting) dynamics for singers are put above the staff, to avoid problems of collision with lyrics. Have you considered this? No, but that is a possibility. I kindof prefer to have it below. Lilypond default seems to have it below. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
Hi Karl, Lilypond default seems to have it below. That's because dynamics for [almost?] all non-vocal instruments are engraved below the staff. I have defined a VocalStaff context, with all the appropriate #'direction = #UP overrides — this makes it very easy to add a vocal line without having to adjust the settings every time. Hope this helps! Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: dynamics seperatate from the notes entry
On Dec 31, 2012, at 3:22 PM, Karl Hammar k...@aspodata.se wrote:
How do I merge Ds and Ms below so it will behave as if I wrote the
dynamics together with the notes?
smorz = \markup { \italic smorz }
sotto = \markup { \italic { sotto voce } }
Ds = {
s1*10 | s1^\sotto | s4 s2.\f | s4 s2.^\smorz | s1\p | s1\pp | s1*2 |
s2 s\ | s4 s8. s16\f\ s4 s8.\! s16 | s2 s\pp |
% ...
}
Ms = \context Voice = Vs \relative a' {
%\keya
R1*8 |
R1*2 |
e2\( fis | % 3 11
gis8\) r gis4\( gis gis\) |
a8 r a4\( d d\) |
c2\( a\) |
a2.\( gis4\) | % 4 15
a8 r r4 r2 |
% ...
}
///
If I use \Ms \\ \Ds the dynamics will come out to the left
(compared to the in the notes version), probably since the dynamics
are centered under the notes and a skip doesn't have a width (?).
If I use \new Dynamics the dynamics will come out fine but the markups
comes out int the wrong line place (since it doesn't belong to the notes
staff any longer) and the dynamics comes too close to the lyrics
just below.
I could possible use \partcombine \Ms \Ds, whith
ignore = \override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
Ds = \relative a' {
s1*10 | s1^\sotto | s4 \once\ignore g\f s2 |
% ...
}
but it seems a little too much dependend on the notes in Ms.
///
I'm trying to set Gioachino Rossinis petite messe solennelle [1] and
I have got to the Kyrie, i.e. I've just started. I'm using the
Brandus Dufur edition [2] (probable 1869 according to [3]).
The definitive modern edition seems to be [4], the editor has some
notes at [5].
[1]
http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/GRossini/petite_messe_solennelle/01_kyrie.ly
[2]
http://imslp.org/images/e/ee/PMLP29942-Rossini_-_Petite_Messe_solennelle_%28vs_Brandus%29.pdf
[3] http://www.classicstoday.com/features/RossiniMesse.pdf
[4] https://www.baerenreiter.com/en/sheetmusic/product/?artNo=BA10501
[5]
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/ciao/Introductory/Essays%20from%20CIAO/Petite%20Messe%20versions.htm
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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I use almost exactly your configuration for vocal music with just a few
modifications.
1) \new Dynamics
2) (as needed) alignAboveContext
A simple example would be:
\version 2.16.0
global = { \tempo 4=120 }
vocal = \relative c' { c4 d e f }
vocalDynamics = { s4\f s8\ s\! s\ s\! s4\p }
vocalText = \lyricmode { This is some text }
\score {
\new Staff = vocal
\new Voice = vocal \global \vocal
\new Dynamics \with {alignAboveContext = vocal } \vocalDynamics
\new Lyrics \lyricsto vocal \vocalText
\layout {}
}
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