Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
We'll think about this (and some more, when I'm back and we're ready with our current job ...). OK, Janek? Best Urs Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com schrieb: On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:31 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: There are also a few advantages [of using MuseScore]: a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation programs making use of an open standard. Indeed, having MusicXML exprort can give Lily more popularity. b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain. You can use an editor of your choice is about as helpful for the average musician as You can use a lathe of your choice. LOL :D how true! Valentin, that could be the next quote of the month :) d) I am well-versed in LilyPond. What form do you want the entry in? Can I use music functions? What note language should I be using? Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices? Should I be using anonymous parallel voices? What kind of context mods should I be using? Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question. Good point. That's why our KickStarter project (at least the first one) should be a not-very-long piece for chamber orchestra. Or string quartet. Something with 3-6 staves and 5-15 pages. cheers, Janek PS there actually is one serious advantage of text input in a project like this: we could set up a git repository for it. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Urs Liska li...@ursliska.de wrote: We'll think about this (and some more, when I'm back and we're ready with our current job ...). OK, Janek? ok ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Totally agree Wasil. A beautiful sheet, the syntax is only very small part. Lilypond make other default setting great. We just focus on music and syntax. These are the key of music. On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Wasil Sergejczyk szelga@gmail.comwrote: There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough. Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult to change it, i think. for me, as a beginner, notes syntax wasn't the difficult part (then again, i'm used to write programming code), but page layout, staffs, voices, etc. so, i ended up by composing a set of templates for my needs and forgetting about that stuff. so, an online collection of such templates would smooth a learning curve alot, imho. -- Best regards. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On 29 mai 2012, at 23:56, Lucas Gonze wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this). It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each Lilypond release. Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly export from the Musecore front end. I feel like this conversation is unnecessarily competitive. These projects have a *lot* in common. I am rooting for both. I know I'm rehashing old ground, but I think that these projects stand to mutually benefit from each other if and only if they evolve in natural directions given their goals. MuseScore reminds me of Finale and Sibelius and it seems like it should do this as best as possible. LilyPond needs to be an excellent typesetter (like SCORE). It needs to be for people who put layout above all else. In general, the idea of LilyPond is to build a master engraver - a virtual person who, using various directives, creates a score following hundreds of years of engraving knowledge. Like any master engraver, this involves trial and error and testing out multiple possibilities, which is exactly what LilyPond does - for any slur you see in a score, LilyPond is testing between 50 and 100 slurs to see which one fits best. These tests take time and, if they were done for every change in a WYSIWYG score (because every change in a score has the potential to effect every element of a score) it would slow the score down immensely. LilyPond 2.18 (yes, 2.18, not 2.16) will contain various changes in lyrics and skylines that build even more engraver knowledge into LilyPond, which will slow it down by about 1-5 seconds for a 60 second score. These scores will look less airy in many cases. These types of features are the ones that I think will improve LilyPond's typesetting most. So, with respect to your comment above, I too am rooting for both programs. I think what they have in common is that they both produce scores. However, I'd encourage everyone to help both programs distinguish themselves through their differences. The nightmare scenario, in my opinion, is that the two programs, competing over a user-base somewhere in the middle, converge. To paraphrase what Bill Clinton said of Washington DC, it'd be like A combination of northern hospitality and southern efficiency. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke at gnu.org writes: Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it happen. The people who put the project together choose their tools, mostly from personal preference. The sponsorship was for the project, not the software, at least as I read the Kickstarter history. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Carl Sorensen carl.d.soren...@gmail.com writes: Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke at gnu.org writes: Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it happen. It is not just that. There are also a few advantages: a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation programs making use of an open standard. b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain. You can use an editor of your choice is about as helpful for the average musician as You can use a lathe of your choice. c) Ok, let's assume I have a MIDI keyboard hooked up to my computer for note entry. How do I go from there? Bring the keyboard back to the store. We are not going to use it anyway. d) I am well-versed in LilyPond. What form do you want the entry in? Can I use music functions? What note language should I be using? Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices? Should I be using anonymous parallel voices? What kind of context mods should I be using? Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:16 AM, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I know I'm rehashing old ground, but I think that these projects stand to mutually benefit from each other if and only if they evolve in natural directions given their goals. ... In general, the idea of LilyPond is to build a master engraver - a virtual person who, using various directives, creates a score following hundreds of years of engraving knowledge. There's a lot of wisdom in your comment, Mike. I agree that the best thing would be for Musecore and Lilypond to define themselves in complementary ways. David, given the idea that the soul of Lilypond is engraving, I don't know if having musescore import Lilypond syntax is absolutely necessary or even absolutely possible. For them to do that would require using Lilypond as a library and constantly updating the import routines. The insane and incredible richness of Lilypond makes a 1-1 translation nearly impossible, so Musescore would have to support only a subset of Lilypond features. Not that I mean to convince you to invest spare time you don't have into musescore integration - apologies if I give that impression. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:31 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: There are also a few advantages [of using MuseScore]: a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation programs making use of an open standard. Indeed, having MusicXML exprort can give Lily more popularity. b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain. You can use an editor of your choice is about as helpful for the average musician as You can use a lathe of your choice. LOL :D how true! Valentin, that could be the next quote of the month :) d) I am well-versed in LilyPond. What form do you want the entry in? Can I use music functions? What note language should I be using? Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices? Should I be using anonymous parallel voices? What kind of context mods should I be using? Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question. Good point. That's why our KickStarter project (at least the first one) should be a not-very-long piece for chamber orchestra. Or string quartet. Something with 3-6 staves and 5-15 pages. cheers, Janek PS there actually is one serious advantage of text input in a project like this: we could set up a git repository for it. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 17:31:49 +0200 From: David Kastrup d...@gnu.org To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: Re: musescore lands sponsoring? Message-ID: 87fwahu1lm@fencepost.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain Carl Sorensen carl.d.soren...@gmail.com writes: Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke at gnu.org writes: Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it happen. It is not just that. There are also a few advantages: a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation programs making use of an open standard. They can check-out any time they like, But can they ever leave? :) Let's say I look at their score and see some bad spacing among some set of sixteenths (and there is some bad spacing, btw). Then I see a glaring enharmonic spelling of a leading-tone that the MIDI-entry got wrong and the editors missed (also there, btw). Great, I say-- I'll just import the corresponding MusicXML into Finale or whatever, do the tweaks, then export so that I can send the patch back to the project for inclusion in the next version. Is music software X guaranteed to keep the rest of the score exactly the same, except for the parts I tweaked when I do the export back to MusicXML? If so, that's an impressive open standard. b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain. You can use an editor of your choice is about as helpful for the average musician as You can use a lathe of your choice. c) Ok, let's assume I have a MIDI keyboard hooked up to my computer for note entry. How do I go from there? Bring the keyboard back to the store. We are not going to use it anyway. d) I am well-versed in LilyPond. What form do you want the entry in? Can I use music functions? What note language should I be using? Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices? Should I be using anonymous parallel voices? What kind of context mods should I be using? Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question. One thing I was thinking was that you could use tags in Lilypond to make editions. Let's say someone had some crackerjack fingerings from various concert pianists they collected. You could have all those available as pdfs while they all derive from the same codebase, so that when someone finally fixes the erroneous d-flat they only need to fix it once. But I don't see how you could do that with Musescore. If one wanted to add dynamics, for example, they'd be forced to fork the entire notation project and manually keep up with revisions to the original, no? -Jonathan -- David Kastrup -- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user End of lilypond-user Digest, Vol 114, Issue 145 *** ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On 29 mai 2012, at 09:56, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: Just to make sure you have seen http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0 Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? Jan We're missing consensus. I think that if there were a SponsorshipMeister, not unlike the BugMeister, we could do really cool stuff like this. Besides the monetary aid, this brings huge recognition to the community and gets a lot of people on board. LoMuS is already a great step in this direction - it took me 1 hour max to fill out and send the application and as a result we'll have better skylines at the end of the summer. We already have a great piece of software that speaks for itself - we just need someone (or a group of people) dedicated to contacting people and seeking out collaborations. But before that, as I said above, we need consensus, and I know that there are a few people who don't want to see LilyPond go in this direction. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: On 29 mai 2012, at 09:56, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: Just to make sure you have seen http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0 Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? Jan We're missing consensus. I think that if there were a SponsorshipMeister, not unlike the BugMeister, we could do really cool stuff like this. Besides the monetary aid, this brings huge recognition to the community and gets a lot of people on board. I don't agree: the money aspect is not really where we want to go since what it _can_ achieve is much less than what already _works_ with LilyPond. LoMuS is already a great step in this direction - it took me 1 hour max to fill out and send the application and as a result we'll have better skylines at the end of the summer. That glosses over the fact that the money does not turn out skylines, but rather Mike does. And getting Mike to the state where he will crank out skylines took a lot of dedication and time, something quite impossible to pay for with tiny sums like that of LoMuS. And I have a hunch that it will take again a lot of dedication and time from others before the skylines are actually production quality. A SponsorshipMeister is dangerously close to the premise that we can turn money into LilyPond. The truth is that we can turn enthusiasm into LilyPond. We already have a great piece of software that speaks for itself - we just need someone (or a group of people) dedicated to contacting people and seeking out collaborations. But before that, as I said above, we need consensus, and I know that there are a few people who don't want to see LilyPond go in this direction. We don't make the best of our potential for selling LilyPond out. But we should not run into trap of making money a metric for the success of LilyPond or its contributors. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:15:08 +0200 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: A SponsorshipMeister is dangerously close to the premise that we can turn money into LilyPond. The truth is that we can turn enthusiasm into LilyPond. Money does prevent enthusiasm from working at a gas station. Nil ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
David Kastrup writes: We're missing consensus. I think that if there were a SponsorshipMeister, not unlike the BugMeister, we could do really cool stuff like this. Besides the monetary aid, this brings huge recognition to the community and gets a lot of people on board. A SponsorshipMeister is dangerously close to the premise that we can turn money into LilyPond. The truth is that we can turn enthusiasm into LilyPond. How to turn enthousiasm into LilyPond, if people are unaware of it's existence. Long before we go SponsorshipMeister, I would suggest a PRMeister. We don't make the best of our potential for selling LilyPond out. But we should not run into trap of making money a metric for the success of LilyPond or its contributors. So what would be a valid metric for LilyPond's success? Can we determine where the hanging fruit is that we are missing in selling LilyPond out? Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes: David Kastrup writes: We're missing consensus. I think that if there were a SponsorshipMeister, not unlike the BugMeister, we could do really cool stuff like this. Besides the monetary aid, this brings huge recognition to the community and gets a lot of people on board. A SponsorshipMeister is dangerously close to the premise that we can turn money into LilyPond. The truth is that we can turn enthusiasm into LilyPond. How to turn enthousiasm into LilyPond, if people are unaware of it's existence. Long before we go SponsorshipMeister, I would suggest a PRMeister. I don't think that people are unaware of its existence. Mutopia has more than 1500 pieces by now. Those did not exactly fall from some tree. We don't make the best of our potential for selling LilyPond out. But we should not run into trap of making money a metric for the success of LilyPond or its contributors. So what would be a valid metric for LilyPond's success? Can we determine where the hanging fruit is that we are missing in selling LilyPond out? Are we missing something? With all the things should be better talk, I can't help noticing that we have great and dedicated people working on a totally large software project with about a dozen translations, likely the best documentation system of the GNU project, and really large uptake and mindshare (try making a list of all serious music manipulating software on GNU/Linux that does _not_ offer at least an export to LilyPond: you'll not find much). -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
2012/5/29 Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org: Just to make sure you have seen http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0 Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? What do you mean with technically superior? It's about the output? I think it's LilyPond output. Can you confirm? http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/node/191 Maybe you mean that writing a .ly file would have allowed better tweaking? (I have no idea of the MuseScore workflow) Or it's about the input? If it's technically superior because it's text-based, I would agree with you for a number of reasons. In this particular case, there's another benefit: no need to write from scratch because Golden Variations are in Mutopia http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?collection=bachgbpreview=1 Anyway, I think that the main reason why MuseScore is much more popular than LilyPond is simply because it's a GUI program. Considering your efforts in Schikkers List, I can imagine that you may agree with me. Last year I was thinking about trying to introduce LilyPond in some music schools in my area. But then I realized that anyone who is not a kind of geek will be scared away by the text input (no matter how powerful it is). The other big obstacle is: schools in general (in any area) organize classes and workshops on software programs used by the industry. LilyPond should be first introduced in the publishing industry... but... how many geeks work in the music publishing companies? ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com writes: 2012/5/29 Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org: Just to make sure you have seen http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0 Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? What do you mean with technically superior? It's about the output? How about the input? You can put a lot of information in the input about the autograph, in comments, in alternate code paths. Last year I was thinking about trying to introduce LilyPond in some music schools in my area. But then I realized that anyone who is not a kind of geek will be scared away by the text input (no matter how powerful it is). I am not sure about that. It is fast, readable, efficient. In contrast, MusiXTeX is an incomprehensible nightmare of technoblurb. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/5/29 Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org: Just to make sure you have seen http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0 Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? What do you mean with technically superior? It's about the output? I think it's LilyPond output. Can you confirm? http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/node/191 Maybe you mean that writing a .ly file would have allowed better tweaking? (I have no idea of the MuseScore workflow) Or it's about the input? If it's technically superior because it's text-based, I would agree with you for a number of reasons. In this particular case, there's another benefit: no need to write from scratch because Golden Variations are in Mutopia http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?collection=bachgbpreview=1 Anyway, I think that the main reason why MuseScore is much more popular than LilyPond is simply because it's a GUI program. Considering your efforts in Schikkers List, I can imagine that you may agree with me. +1 I think too GUI is the main reason too. I love Lilypond and I use it for all my projects (I'm trying to setup a small publishing house which will be lilypond-only), and I'm pushing it strongly for the uni I'm affiliated with, for the moment without success. We publish a series of baroque-centered books, and all the layout is done in-house (no professionals involved) with finale or sibelius. Generally speaking, my colleagues just want to point-and-click, move around stuff and so on. It does not matter that what I do in lily automagically can take hours in finale - when I show the text input people just go away scared. I tried many times demoing a project conversion from finale to lily, where you get almost magically a very nice output. When people learn they cannot click and move stuff on the screen, they just say no way and back up. (on the plus side, I will probably editing one of the next volumes, and the condition I posed was to use lily exclusively). Cheers Rodolfo ps for David: did you receive my email? ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org wrote:
http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0
Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
sponsoring project? What are we missing?
I think it's not a matter of what. We are technically superior
indeed (i've checked their score and Lily would engrave it better).
It's the just do it thingy. We don't have anyone who would just do it.
I'd love to handle this, but i already have more Lily activities that
i can manage... :(
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:15 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote:
A SponsorshipMeister is dangerously close to the premise that we can
turn money into LilyPond.
I'd say that we can turn /some/ money into LilyPond: without money,
you wouldn't be able to work on Lily. Another example: Mike could
spend more time on Lily if he didn't have to do fundraising for his
ensemble and his compositional work (correct me if i remembered this
wrong).
The problem is that we cannot guarantee anything specific.
We don't make the best of our potential for selling LilyPond out. But
we should not run into trap of making money a metric for the success of
LilyPond or its contributors.
+1
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com wrote:
2012/5/29 Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org:
Just to make sure you have seen
http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0
Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
sponsoring project? What are we missing?
What do you mean with technically superior? It's about the output?
I think it's LilyPond output. Can you confirm?
http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/node/191
This isn't Lily output, it's directly from MuseScore.
You were fooled by the fact that MuseScore uses our Feta font.
Last year I was thinking about trying to introduce LilyPond in some
music schools in my area.
But then I realized that anyone who is not a kind of geek will be
scared away by the text input (no matter how powerful it is).
There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough.
Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult
to change it, i think.
Take this example:
\relative c' {
\key a \major
r4 e8(- gis ) ^sul D \f \ \repeat unfold 8 { cis-. } { s2
s2^\markup { \italic rit. } }
\sfz \downbow \repeat unfold 2 { cis8 gis } fis cis'1\
\enddecr \mark \markup { \musicglyph #scripts.coda }
a1 { s2\ s2\ } \!
}
Looks like a mystery to non-geeks. But, if we just define some nice
commands (actually, some of them already exist, but they usually
aren't encouraged so many people don't know about them) we may end up
with something like this (just a rough example):
\relative c' {
\key a \major
rest4 e8 \accent \beginSlur gsharp csharp \endSlur \staccato \sul
D \forte \decrescendoHairpin csharp \staccato csharp \staccato csharp
\staccato |
csharp \staccato \ritardando csharp \staccato csharp \staccato
csharp \staccato csharp \downBow \sforzando gsharp csharp gsharp |
\chord { fsharp csharp' }1 \decrescrendoHairpin |
\coda
a1 \crescrendoHairpin \decrescendoHairpin
}
Sure, it's much longer, but everything's pretty obvious even for
someone who sees lily code for the first time.
The other big obstacle is: schools in general (in any area) organize
classes and workshops on software programs used by the industry.
LilyPond should be first introduced in the publishing industry...
but... how many geeks work in the music publishing companies?
There is a plan to change this. Currently it's top secret ;) because
we don't know if it'll work out, but if it does, we'll need help.
We'll post a call to arms on user, be ready :)
cheers,
Janek
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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
2012/5/29 Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com: What do you mean with technically superior? It's about the output? I think it's LilyPond output. Can you confirm? http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/node/191 This isn't Lily output, it's directly from MuseScore. You were fooled by the fact that MuseScore uses our Feta font. Ok, I suck with recognizing the output.. I was quite sure to be wrong :-) Last year I was thinking about trying to introduce LilyPond in some music schools in my area. But then I realized that anyone who is not a kind of geek will be scared away by the text input (no matter how powerful it is). There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough. Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult to change it, i think. [cut] Sure, it's much longer, but everything's pretty obvious even for someone who sees lily code for the first time. You are right, this is important. But there are many people who don't want to even _see_ a text file, so they don't care about nice/bad syntax. Rodolfo's experience (see previous email) is probably common to many of us. The other big obstacle is: schools in general (in any area) organize classes and workshops on software programs used by the industry. LilyPond should be first introduced in the publishing industry... but... how many geeks work in the music publishing companies? There is a plan to change this. Currently it's top secret ;) because we don't know if it'll work out, but if it does, we'll need help. We'll post a call to arms on user, be ready :) Great! Ready to help if I can ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org wrote: Just to make sure you have seen http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0 Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? Yes, certainly. What are we missing? Werner is a crack coder, just look at https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore to see how he cranked this out in just 3 days. kidding aside, I think a GUI appeals to more people, both developers, users and passers-by (I notice some people that used to be active on the LilyPond list on their site). What I don't get is that they chose a Bach work as a demo. While interesting from a typesetting perspective, the primary value of MuseScore is not copying existing work, but being able to edit new works. I wonder how much tweaks they needed to get the output they are showing. Also, their sponsorship was for a recorded version of the work, ie. for sound. More people are interested in sound rather than printed matter. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Excerpts from Jan Nieuwenhuizen's message of Tue May 29 09:56:14 +0200 2012: Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this sponsoring project? What are we missing? Just talking about my personal experience .. I personally can only say that I've tried teaching lilypond to a friendly woman and my mother - I failed both times (due to complexity). It was too much for them to remember syntax and some templates for repetitions and such. Both were able to write scores with muscore. Of course they are no professional type setters. Musecore fails to render some specific cases when printing - but exporting to lilypond seems to work in all (little) cases I tried. Thus for simple cases I like that combination: musescore for typing and lilypond for rendering. Sponsorings are not always easy to understand :( Marc Weber ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Tue, 29 May 2012 10:15:31 +0200 Marc Weber marco-owe...@gmx.de wrote: Musecore fails to render some specific cases when printing - but exporting to lilypond seems to work in all (little) cases I tried. Thus for simple cases I like that combination: musescore for typing and lilypond for rendering. AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this). It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each Lilypond release. Nils ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this). It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each Lilypond release. Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly export from the Musecore front end. I feel like this conversation is unnecessarily competitive. These projects have a *lot* in common. I am rooting for both. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On 29-5-2012 23:16, Nils wrote: On Tue, 29 May 2012 10:15:31 +0200 Marc Webermarco-owe...@gmx.de wrote: Musecore fails to render some specific cases when printing - but exporting to lilypond seems to work in all (little) cases I tried. Thus for simple cases I like that combination: musescore for typing and lilypond for rendering. AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this). It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each Lilypond release. Nils ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user . Nils, Isn't it the 'dropped lilypond import', which apparently has been dropped the second time recently? http://musescore.org/en/node/14273 AFAIK they intend to keep .ly export, but refuse to do .ly import unless new developers want to pick up the task of fixing and maintaining the importer code as import would need to be able to handle the various changes in the lilypond source format gracefully. The export is easier to maintain as they just write the \version in the .ly file and leave it up to the user to run convert-ly and modify anything that convert-ly can't handle itself when using a more recent version of Lilypond. regards, Hans ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On 29/05/12 20:44, David Kastrup wrote: Jan Nieuwenhuizenjann...@gnu.org writes: How to turn enthousiasm into LilyPond, if people are unaware of it's existence. Long before we go SponsorshipMeister, I would suggest a PRMeister. I don't think that people are unaware of its existence. Mutopia has more than 1500 pieces by now. Those did not exactly fall from some tree. Speaking of which, Mutopia seems to be pretty much moribund. I sent a score to their contributions e-mail address a couple of months ago, which was never acknowledged and hasn't appeared on the web site. Nor did I get a response to a mail pointing out a couple of errors in scores already on the web site, and nothing has appeared there since early February. Nick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
Lucas Gonze lucas.go...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this). It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each Lilypond release. Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly export from the Musecore front end. MuseScore is not a GUI for LilyPond, like LilyPond is not a frontend for PostScript. If it were a GUI for LilyPond, you could send a LilyPond file to a MuseScore guy, and he would make some amendments with MuseScore and send you back the changed LilyPond file. There's no reason for a PostScript person to not work on .ps export from the LilyPond front end, but that does not mean that when he tweaks some noteheads, you can reimport those tweaks into into the original LilyPond source. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
On 12-05-29 10:36 PM, David Kastrup wrote: MuseScore is not a GUI for LilyPond, like LilyPond is not a frontend for PostScript. If it were a GUI for LilyPond, you could send a LilyPond file to a MuseScore guy, and he would make some amendments with MuseScore and send you back the changed LilyPond file. There's no reason for a PostScript person to not work on .ps export from the LilyPond front end, but that does not mean that when he tweaks some noteheads, you can reimport those tweaks into into the original LilyPond source. For interest's sake: there was a discussion on slashdot today: http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/12/05/29/0015231/open-source-bach-project-completed-score-and-recording-now-online Colin -- I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands. You need to be able to throw something back. -Maya Angelou, poet (1928- ) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough. Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult to change it, i think. for me, as a beginner, notes syntax wasn't the difficult part (then again, i'm used to write programming code), but page layout, staffs, voices, etc. so, i ended up by composing a set of templates for my needs and forgetting about that stuff. so, an online collection of such templates would smooth a learning curve alot, imho. -- Best regards. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
