RE: Staff and voice definitions
David
I take your points about the maths analogies. They
clearly only serve to confuse anyone not familiar
with maths. Thanks for this, and your other comments
on the Learning Manual. I'll certainly bear them in
mind when I next edit that section and try to clarify
the words there.
Perhaps the hardest LilyPond concept to understand
is the use of double angle brackets - ...
Things contained within a brace {..} are sequential;
things contained within double angle brackets
.. are concurrent (for historical reasons
LilyPond uses the term 'simultaneous' to mean
'concurrent'.) So to stack Staves into a system they
must be placed within .. as they music they contain
must be played concurrently; to stack Voices within
a Staff they must be within .. for the same reason.
Multiple voices are only needed if there are notes
within the same staff which need to sound concurrently
but which start and/or end at different times; otherwise
using single angle brackets .. to indicate chords is
adequate.
I'm not familiar with your specific example, but I
understand your difficulty. A similar situation
arises in CPE Bach's Solfeggettio with a single
melody running through both hands and staves. Below
I show how to write the first two bars of this piece in
two different ways. Try compiling both of them to see
what they look like.
1) Splitting the melody into the two staves and
using skips to step over the periods when the
melody is in the opposite hand:
\score {
\new PianoStaff
\new Staff = RH
\key c \minor
\relative c' {
s4 c16 ees d c s4 g'16 f ees d |
\stemDown ees16 c ees g
\stemUp c16 ees d c d c b a g f ees d |
}
\new Staff = LH
\clef bass
\key c \minor
\relative c {
ees16 c ees g s4 b16 g b d s4 |
s4*4
}
}
2) Coding a single melody line and using \change
to switch this between staves. I've never used
this before and I found this quite tricky to do,
for the reasons I've placed below the example. If
Mats or anyone else can improve on how to use
\change for this example or correct any misconceptions
in the comments below I'm sure we'd both be grateful.
First the same example coded this way:
\score {
\new PianoStaff
\new Staff = RH
\key c \minor
\skip 1*2
\new Staff = LH
\clef bass
\key c \minor
\relative c {
ees16 c ees g
\change Staff = RH c ees d c
\change Staff = LH b g b d
\change Staff = RH g f ees d |
\stemDown ees c ees g
\stemUp c ees d c d c b a g f ees d |
}
}
and now some comments. The melody -must- be placed
in the lowest staff, because the references in the
\change statement can refer only to staves which
have already been defined earlier. This also means
the music cannot be placed in a variable, as that
has be be defined before it is used, and both
cannot be satified simultaneously. Also the
\skip in the first staff is -required- if there is
no other music on that staff, otherwise
the staff no longer exists when it is needed as the
melody switches to it. The skip has to be as long
as the music, here just 2 bars.
HTH a bit
Trevor D
-Original Message-
From: David Fedoruk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 25 December 2007 07:16
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lilypond mailing list
Subject: Re: Staff and voice definitions
Hello
You don't say which version of LilyPond you are
using, but I'm sure the answers to your questions
are contained in the documentation which came with it.
I am using 2.11.35
Alternatively, you may find the answers in the
documentation being
prepared for release 2.12, which can currently be
found under the 2.11
development pages. To be more specific, look at
chapters 2 and 3 in
the Learning Manual at
http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/Documentation/user/
lilypond-learning/index.html.
These explain the concepts of Staff and Voice.
I'd be interested to
hear if they help.
Yes, I had read that documentation and that was
what prompted my
questions as well as the project I am currently
working on.
2.3.1 Musical Expressions Explained.
The illustration of { { a4 g } fg} as rendered
in sequence is
understandable, but the minute you used a
mathematical analogy, you
lost me completely. It only complicated things for me.
polyphony:
Am I correct in assuming that it is that
tells lilypond that it
is polyphonic? Although I know how they are used,
I have never known
exactly what they mean.
In my mind, polyphony and the number of staves
are not linked
concepts. One does not depend or imply the other.
The number of staves
(to me) is merely for the convenience of the
performers. So before
using lilypond, I didn't consider that piano
music was mostly 4 part
polyphonic writing. I saw it as two handed -- two
part. I then
considered the possibility of single voiced
RE: Staff and voice definitions
David
You don't say which version of LilyPond you are using, but I'm sure the answers
to your questions are contained in the documentation which came with it.
Alternatively, you may find the answers in the documentation being prepared for
release 2.12, which can currently be found under the 2.11 development pages.
To be more specific, look at chapters 2 and 3 in the Learning Manual at
http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/index.html.
These explain the concepts of Staff and Voice. I'd be interested to hear if
they help.
Trevor D
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+t.daniels=treda.co.u
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
David Fedoruk
Sent: 24 December 2007 06:02
To: Lilypond mailing list
Subject: Staff and voice definitions
Hello:
Using Lilypond keeps challenging assumptions I
have made about WEM
(Western European Music) notation. In most cases,
there is a voice
which goes with each staff, but I don't see that
the creation of a
voice is part of the staff engraver or any of
the engravers that go
along with it.
Can I assume that the creation of a music which
goes between the {} is
separate from the staff?
I have a more specific instance in mind but I
want to understand the
process by which lilypond creates the staff,
braces, and clefs before
I ask about a particular instance; and maybe work
the instance out
myself.
A follow-up question is can a Piano staff which
has two staffs which
work together, have only one { music } and still
run between both
staves? A single voice played by two hands.
Cheers
David
--
David Fedoruk
B.Mus. UBC,1986
Certificate in Internet Systems Administration, UBC, 2003
http://recordjackethistorian.wordpress.com
Music is enough for one's life time, but one
life time is not enough
for music Sergei Rachmaninov
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Re: Staff and voice definitions
David Fedoruk david.fedoruk at gmail.com writes:
Using Lilypond keeps challenging assumptions I have made about WEM
(Western European Music) notation. In most cases, there is a voice
which goes with each staff, but I don't see that the creation of a
voice is part of the staff engraver or any of the engravers that go
along with it.
In my experience, one of the hardest things about LilyPond is understanding the
logic behind it. I think that Han-Wen and Jan have done a masterful job of
architecting a system that is flexible and extensible. With all this power,
sometimes the function can be difficult to understand.
Recognizing that I'm not an expert, I'll give you my best shot at explaining
things, which others can feel free to correct, as they'll undoubtedly know
better than me.
My understanding is that a voice needs to be associated with a staff in order to
get the notes printed in a staff. However, the voice is not a sub-context of a
staff, because the voice can be switched to be part of a different staff.
Can I assume that the creation of a music which goes between the {} is
separate from the staff?
If you don't explicitly create a voice, a voice context is automatically
created, and associated with the current staff.
A follow-up question is can a Piano staff which has two staffs which
work together, have only one { music } and still run between both
staves? A single voice played by two hands.
Yes, this can be easily done. All one needs to do is to use the \autochange
keyword. This is described in section 7.1.1 Automatic Staff Changes of the 2.10
documentation. You can also manually change staffs; this is described in
section 7.1.2 Manual Staff Changes.
Good luck,
Carl Sorensen
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Re: Staff and voice definitions
Hello
You don't say which version of LilyPond you are using, but I'm sure the
answers to your questions are contained in the documentation which came with
it.
I am using 2.11.35
Alternatively, you may find the answers in the documentation being
prepared for release 2.12, which can currently be found under the 2.11
development pages. To be more specific, look at chapters 2 and 3 in
the Learning Manual at
http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/index.html.
These explain the concepts of Staff and Voice. I'd be interested to
hear if they help.
Yes, I had read that documentation and that was what prompted my
questions as well as the project I am currently working on.
2.3.1 Musical Expressions Explained.
The illustration of { { a4 g } fg} as rendered in sequence is
understandable, but the minute you used a mathematical analogy, you
lost me completely. It only complicated things for me.
polyphony:
Am I correct in assuming that it is that tells lilypond that it
is polyphonic? Although I know how they are used, I have never known
exactly what they mean.
In my mind, polyphony and the number of staves are not linked
concepts. One does not depend or imply the other. The number of staves
(to me) is merely for the convenience of the performers. So before
using lilypond, I didn't consider that piano music was mostly 4 part
polyphonic writing. I saw it as two handed -- two part. I then
considered the possibility of single voiced piano writing using two
hands. I hadn't thought that two hands might be playing one part
between them.
2.3.2
These Staff elements are then combined in parallel with and
The last sentence describes what happens *after* the \new staff is
created. So they are created in parallel| f with ... what if there are
no because there is no polyphony happening? Consider this
passage of piano music. I have only given two bars, but it continues
like this for 24 bars with no simultaneous notes. It is not
polyphonic, though it is divided between two hands as originally
written and as it is performed. In the score, right and left hands are
indicated completely by stem direction and not by presence or absence
on either staff (there is treble and bass clefs in the original). So
the clefs and staves are for ease of reading. The right hand has the
first beamed group, the left hand alternates with it after that. For
the sake of this question, I have not put this in a piano staff
context, though that is where it will ultimately reside. The previous
section has two voices, this B section is single voiced.
Schumann Kreisleriana opus 16 number 1 bar 25
\relative c''
\key d \minor
\clef treble
\time 2/4
trip = \times 2/3 % this may not be the correct way to crete this variable
g''16 | trip {f''[ bf' ] d'' } trip { f,[ bf' ] ef'' } trip { d''[ f,
] bf } trip { d'',[ bf, ] d'' } | trip { c''[ f', ] gf' } trip { ef'[
bf, ] d'' } trip { ef''[ f' ] g' } trip { ef'[ bf, ] d'' } |
This is the passage which prompted me to ask the quetsion after
reading the documentation. If this is polyphonic, then there must be
staff changes and rests or hidden rests. If not, then there are no
rests and no need for staff changes even if there are two staves
present. In the score there are no rests indicated where one hand is
silent, so it is really a single voice.
This puzzles me:
In terms of syntax, prepending \new to a music expression creates a
bigger music expression. In this way it resembles the minus sign in
mathematics. The formula (4+5) is an expression, so -(4+5) is a bigger
expression.
Arithmetically 4+5 = 9 AND (4+5) = (9)
-(4+5)= -(9) = -9
Or
Do you mean that the expression -(4+5) has more elements in it (that
is 6 elements) where (4+5) has only 5 elements in it?
Have I missed something here?
2.3.3
Piano music is typeset in two staves connected by a brace. Printing
such a staff is similar to the polyphonic example in Multiple staves.
However, now this entire expression is inserted inside a PianoStaff:
A point of confusion is what creates the polyphonic character, the
brace or the ? Would it be monophonic writing without the ?
Or would Lilypond simply be confused.
I think many of my questions arise from the divide between thinking of
a programmer and that of a non-programmer. I have read music for so
long that I no longer think about how I understand it, I simply read
it like you would read a book. So when I come to working with
Lilypond, I have to re-examine many of these things. I don't think
about English grammar when I read or write and often I may not even
completely understand my own grammatical choices. I may not even why
my sentence construction is correct.
--
David Fedoruk
B.Mus. UBC,1986
Certificate in Internet Systems Administration, UBC, 2003
http://recordjackethistorian.wordpress.com
Music is enough for one's life time, but one life time is not enough
for music Sergei
Staff and voice definitions
Hello:
Using Lilypond keeps challenging assumptions I have made about WEM
(Western European Music) notation. In most cases, there is a voice
which goes with each staff, but I don't see that the creation of a
voice is part of the staff engraver or any of the engravers that go
along with it.
Can I assume that the creation of a music which goes between the {} is
separate from the staff?
I have a more specific instance in mind but I want to understand the
process by which lilypond creates the staff, braces, and clefs before
I ask about a particular instance; and maybe work the instance out
myself.
A follow-up question is can a Piano staff which has two staffs which
work together, have only one { music } and still run between both
staves? A single voice played by two hands.
Cheers
David
--
David Fedoruk
B.Mus. UBC,1986
Certificate in Internet Systems Administration, UBC, 2003
http://recordjackethistorian.wordpress.com
Music is enough for one's life time, but one life time is not enough
for music Sergei Rachmaninov
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