Tie placement in voiceTwo
Good morning list,
ties in \voiceTwo etc are attached to the notehead. Slurs are attached
to the end of the stem. See attached example.
I would prefer the ties to behave like the slurs, i.e. attached to the
end of the stem. How can I achieve that?
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if this is preferred engraving practice.
Rutger Hofman
Amsterdam
\version 2.16.0
\relative c'' {
\voiceTwo a8~^ties a a8~ a
a(^slurs a) a( a) |
}
attachment: tie-voice-two.png___
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Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
Rutger Hofman rut...@cs.vu.nl writes: Good morning list, ties in \voiceTwo etc are attached to the notehead. Slurs are attached to the end of the stem. See attached example. I would prefer the ties to behave like the slurs, i.e. attached to the end of the stem. How can I achieve that? BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if this is preferred engraving practice. Given the nature of ties, ties in parallel with beams are not very frequent. The example you give does not seem like something where one would ordinarily employ ties. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
Am 01.09.2013 10:12, schrieb Rutger Hofman: Good morning list, ties in \voiceTwo etc are attached to the notehead. Slurs are attached to the end of the stem. See attached example. I would prefer the ties to behave like the slurs, i.e. attached to the end of the stem. How can I achieve that? BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if this is preferred engraving practice. Rutger Hofman Amsterdam Hi Rutger, I definitely can't imagine that what you suggest is a valid engraving practice at all. I would _never_ read the second half of your example as meaning to tie the notes. Do you have a real-world example showing ties attached to the stem where it is clear that the 'tied' note shouldn't be repeated? Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
Please keep replies on the list. Rutger Hofman rut...@cs.vu.nl writes: On 09/01/2013 10:21 AM, David Kastrup wrote: Given the nature of ties, ties in parallel with beams are not very frequent. The example you give does not seem like something where one would ordinarily employ ties. Are slurs better then? It's not a question of better. The meaning of a tie is the note is continued. A tie is _notational_ instruction. Its message is for lack of a better notation for the length of this note, we write a tie. In the example you gave, there _was_ no lack of a better notation, so using a tie would have been decidedly strange. Lack of a better notation can mean that the note length as such has no proper representation, or that using a single note would cause the note to extend across a rhythmical border (such as a bar line) one does not want to cross without warning the reader. Renaissance music does not use such syncopic ties, baroque music uses them pretty much only across bar lines. Jazz uses them pretty much for anything crossing a beat boundary without filling the whole starting beat. Now slurs are _not_ a notational tool, but one indicating execution of _two_ notes. For bowed instruments, they usually indicate passages without bow direction change. For any instrument, it usually indicates not stopping the first note before starting the second one. A slur on identical pitches on single-course instruments is rarely used except by analogy: if I have a phrase constituted of pairs of slurred notes of generally different pitch, and there is a single pair of equal pitch, I want this pair to sound similar in character. On a single-manual keyboard, one would likely use two different fingers for striking the same key. On a string instrument, one would usually use two _different_ strings for the two slurred notes. The J.S.Bach Partita 3 for Solo violin (BWV1006 I think), first movement (preludio) has a lot of those slurred notes on the same pitch, and also some quite nice three-string passages pointed out by beaming/stemming the notes appropriately. Now if your example were to indicate such an execution on a stringed instrument, one would usually have the first note and second note attached to _different_ beams. The note grouping you demonstrated _would_ make sense in an analogy passage where one has something like c( e) c( e) d( e) d( e) e( e) e( e) f( e) f( e) ... but then one would most certainly use slurs, not ties. Ties would suggest an execution where the second note is not sounded separately at all, breaking the character. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
As David points out the original example is uncommon both regarding ties
and slurs. I like to add another example which represent a more common
use of ties.
As you can see from the ly-file I first use a tie, then a slur, then a
double dot.
I think that you could get away with the second as a tie, mostly because
it uncommon to slur notes of the same pitch. But I don't think it is
preferred practise to use it this way. The double dot could be used, but
in contemporary notation I think a tie is preferred.
Peter Bjuhr
\version 2.16.2
\relative c'' {
\voiceTwo a8~^tie! a16. b32
a8(^tie or slur? a16. ) b32
a8..^double dot b32
}attachment: tie_or_slur.png___
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Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
- Original Message - From: Peter Bjuhr peterbj...@gmail.com To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo As David points out the original example is uncommon both regarding ties and slurs. I like to add another example which represent a more common use of ties. As you can see from the ly-file I first use a tie, then a slur, then a double dot. I think that you could get away with the second as a tie, mostly because it uncommon to slur notes of the same pitch. But I don't think it is preferred practise to use it this way. The double dot could be used, but in contemporary notation I think a tie is preferred. Peter Bjuhr From Elaine Gould: The tie extends from notehead to notehead: if one or both ends of it point to a stem, [it] becomes a slur. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
(sorry for not including the conversation, but this from my Android phone.) OK, a slur it must be. But, although the notation a8( a8) may be uncommon nowadays, it is quite common in baroque music. Most recently, I met it in BWV 146 mvt 2, all over the place. It also occurs elsewhere with 3 or 4 notes. My baroque violin player friend says: oh yes, that is bow vibrato. Not vibrato in the modern sense, but 2 (3, 4) notes under one bowing. Rutger Hofman Amsterdam Verzonden vanaf mijn Sony Ericsson X10 Peter Bjuhr peterbj...@gmail.comschreef: As David points out the original example is uncommon both regarding ties and slurs. I like to add another example which represent a more common use of ties. As you can see from the ly-file I first use a tie, then a slur, then a double dot. I think that you could get away with the second as a tie, mostly because it uncommon to slur notes of the same pitch. But I don't think it is preferred practise to use it this way. The double dot could be used, but in contemporary notation I think a tie is preferred. Peter Bjuhr ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
Rutger Hofman rhn...@vu.nl writes: (sorry for not including the conversation, but this from my Android phone.) OK, a slur it must be. But, although the notation a8( a8) may be uncommon nowadays, it is quite common in baroque music. Most recently, I met it in BWV 146 mvt 2, all over the place. It also occurs elsewhere with 3 or 4 notes. My baroque violin player friend says: oh yes, that is bow vibrato. Not vibrato in the modern sense, but 2 (3, 4) notes under one bowing. In modern notation, you'd do this as c8--( c-- c-- c--) That the baroque manuscripts are less explicit is not much of a surprise. They tend to be less cluttered, being intended for mature readership rather than music for dummies and sightreaders. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
On Sep 1, 2013 6:01 AM, Peter Bjuhr peterbj...@gmail.com wrote: As David points out the original example is uncommon both regarding ties and slurs. I like to add another example which represent a more common use of ties. As you can see from the ly-file I first use a tie, then a slur, then a double dot. I think that you could get away with the second as a tie, mostly because it uncommon to slur notes of the same pitch. But I don't think it is preferred practise to use it this way. The double dot could be used, but in contemporary notation I think a tie is preferred. The case in my experience where I could see such a notation being practiced is in vocal music where there are multiple verses and some verses have more syllables than others. Thus, the notes would be present as required for all the syllables that are sung at one point or another, but then ties and slurs are inserted to accommodate the verses with fewer syllables. It is not so much an issue in my own work since I do not autobeam, but I could probably find in my collection of hymnals a few examples of this being done. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
On 09/01/2013 04:16 PM, David Kastrup wrote: Rutger Hofman rhn...@vu.nl writes: (sorry for not including the conversation, but this from my Android phone.) OK, a slur it must be. But, although the notation a8( a8) may be uncommon nowadays, it is quite common in baroque music. Most recently, I met it in BWV 146 mvt 2, all over the place. It also occurs elsewhere with 3 or 4 notes. My baroque violin player friend says: oh yes, that is bow vibrato. Not vibrato in the modern sense, but 2 (3, 4) notes under one bowing. In modern notation, you'd do this as c8--( c-- c-- c--) That the baroque manuscripts are less explicit is not much of a surprise. They tend to be less cluttered, being intended for mature readership rather than music for dummies and sightreaders. It's not only manuscript. The BWV146 is from the printed Bach Gesamtausgabe (BGA) from 1884. Moreover, this is still common practice today in printed baroque music -- but I but don't know if it is limited to Urtext. Rutger ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
I believe it was Couperin who distinguished between ties and slurs in his manuscripts by using slightly different shapes for each. I don't have my copy of L'art de toucher le clavecin nearby, but I believe the slurs had more squared-off ends and ties had more rounded ends. Too bad Couperin's system didn't catch on. -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Tie-placement-in-voiceTwo-tp150033p150074.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Tie placement in voiceTwo
That is an interesting notion. I will have to dig my copy out tomorrow and examine it, not remembering an such distinction at the moment. Shane On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Michael Rivers michaeljriv...@gmail.com wrote: I believe it was Couperin who distinguished between ties and slurs in his manuscripts by using slightly different shapes for each. I don't have my copy of L'art de toucher le clavecin nearby, but I believe the slurs had more squared-off ends and ties had more rounded ends. Too bad Couperin's system didn't catch on. -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Tie-placement-in-voiceTwo-tp150033p150074.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
