Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[ArnoldTheresius]

joannesmith wrote:
> 
> Hello to all.
> We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes).
> We have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now (copied,
> pasted, written on, sloppy, taped, marked, etc.) and I have the job of
> making them all look nice. A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all
> that lilypond can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of
> time 
> ...
> So my question ... maybe there is another program that will better suite
> my needs?? Or maybe there is someone here that is really good at entering
> a variety of hymns into lilypond and would be willing to help me every now
> and then??? ...
> 

Yes, my experience is, the syntax of lilypond is some ugly to new users. But
thats the same with every programming language. And lilypond is more like a
programming language (compiler), and absolutely not a
What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get interactive application with graphic user
interface.
At the beginning I thought to use one of these GUI programms which can
export a LY file. But the ones I tried were not compatible with my old
operating system version I used at this time. So I cannot recommend one,
either.
Today I expect for retyping a page of a full size orchestral part (which is
larger than DIN A4 resp. LETTER sheetsize) approx. one and a half hour,
including visual check and obtaining two differently transposed reprints.
Writing by hand would need the same time, but then I would only have on
transposition of it.

Today I like lilypond for several features:
+ associativity (one part, one place to put corrections in, corrected where
ever it is used)
+ stabiliy
+ expandability (e.g. \prall with an alteration above, which is
automatically adapted when you transpose it, e. g. form A-clarinet to
Bflat-clarinet)
+ good (very good) readabily of the result
+ very littly (often none) adjustments required to recieve a good readable
print

Well, I know, entering the music on the computer keyboard is some time
consuming. One of the projects I'm working at the moment is a collection of
22 dances, 16 instrument parts existing (available), one additional
instrument part has to be re-created when the score of the single piece is
complete, many alternate parts (transpositions, other clefs) have to be
generated. Only one quarter is done until now. I expect to complete in
within a total period of one or two years, because other tasks with higher
priority interrupt my work, and I failed to motivate other people to (try
to) enter the voices they need transposed into a lilypond file thus I would
only need to do correction, final touches, and what they marked "I don't
know how to do this, there".

Sorry, but I wont help you typing your songs.
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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Urs Liska]

Am 10.05.2012 16:36, schrieb joannesmith:

Thank you all for your private emails ... they have been a great
encouragement to me. I will probably end up sticking with Lilypond for all
the reasons you mentioned. It really does seem like the best option ... I
just need to hang in there long enough to get a good grip on it and be
patient with myself.

A little more specifics. I first tried to use lilypond on my Linux/Ubuntu
system and could not figure it out 'to save my life.' I am still learning
Linux, but that's a whole other issue. I ended up loading lilypond on to my
Windows system and then, through some internet searching, got Frescobaldi
and it seems they work together.
LilyPond is a command line program. If you call it it will read the file 
it is given and then produces the engraved output from it.
In principle you can use any text editor to produce the text files that 
LilyPond uses to do its magic on.
But there are editors who are better suited than others. The first thing 
is syntax highlighting. And the second one are more specific tools that 
are specialised on LilyPond and that can effectively aid you in working 
with LilyPond input files. Frescobaldi is one of them.

You may want to read http://lilypond.org/easier-editing.html.


I'm ignorant as to why really but I do know
how to do html and it seems kind of like the same concept in a way? I have a
basic template that I am working off of and re-use it each time I start a
new one. If I have a hymn that seems like another one, I'll use that other
song as a template. Something I found that helps is if I keep notes of songs
that are a bit unique. And then if I run into a difficult song, I can look
at my notes and see if I've had that 'problem' before. Copying and pasting
is good.

This is the usual way you start with.
And it's exactly this what you will love with LilyPond: it will make it 
possible to overcome this situation.
In an ideal world you'd have a framework of helper and score template 
files, and you'd chose for any given song which one to use and then the 
only thing you still have to enter is the plain music .
In an ordinary world it usually isn't as nice, but with 450 pieces you 
have the chance to really go into such a direction.

Some have offered to help with questions, encouraged me to post questions
here, and also pointed me to a forum that is for lilypond users who use
shape notes. THANK YOU!!  These are all such excellent resources and I'm
sure if I just keep pressing on I'll get better and better.
Maybe you could give some examples or explanations about what is 
characteristic, usual, special or whatever about your hynms. Especially 
interesting (and good for you to thoroughly think about in advance) are 
aspects that are common to most or even all of your pieces.
You will surely get some hints about what you should take care about or 
what better to avoid.


Thank you again ... I'm so glad I posted this cry for help here!



and yes, the replies (at least the numerous ones I saw) _are_ public ;-)

Best
Urs


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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[joannesmith]

Ok, one more thing ... most of the responses were probably not private
emails??!! I'm still learning this forum as well. Thanks for your patience!


joannesmith wrote:
> 
> Thank you all for your private emails ... they have been a great
> encouragement to me. 
> 

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[joannesmith]

Thank you all for your private emails ... they have been a great
encouragement to me. I will probably end up sticking with Lilypond for all
the reasons you mentioned. It really does seem like the best option ... I
just need to hang in there long enough to get a good grip on it and be
patient with myself. 

A little more specifics. I first tried to use lilypond on my Linux/Ubuntu
system and could not figure it out 'to save my life.' I am still learning
Linux, but that's a whole other issue. I ended up loading lilypond on to my
Windows system and then, through some internet searching, got Frescobaldi
and it seems they work together. I'm ignorant as to why really but I do know
how to do html and it seems kind of like the same concept in a way? I have a
basic template that I am working off of and re-use it each time I start a
new one. If I have a hymn that seems like another one, I'll use that other
song as a template. Something I found that helps is if I keep notes of songs
that are a bit unique. And then if I run into a difficult song, I can look
at my notes and see if I've had that 'problem' before. Copying and pasting
is good.

Some have offered to help with questions, encouraged me to post questions
here, and also pointed me to a forum that is for lilypond users who use
shape notes. THANK YOU!!  These are all such excellent resources and I'm
sure if I just keep pressing on I'll get better and better.

Thank you again ... I'm so glad I posted this cry for help here!


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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi Joanne,

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 4:27 PM, joannesmith  wrote:
>
> Hello to all.
> We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes). We
> have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now (copied, pasted,
> written on, sloppy, taped, marked, etc.) and I have the job of making them
> all look nice. A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
> can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time The hymns
> are not all the same ... and some are really complicated [for me anyway].
> The easy ones only take me about 20 minutes or so, however the hard ones can
> take more than 3 hours and some I have just given up on for now. Multiply
> that by about 450 songs and it is really intimidating to me.
> So my question ... maybe there is another program that will better suite my
> needs?? Or maybe there is someone here that is really good at entering a
> variety of hymns into lilypond and would be willing to help me every now and
> then??

You can always ask questions on this mailing list.  If you spend at
least 15 minutes searching for a solution yourself (in manuals and
mailing list archives) and give your e-mail a descriptive subject,
chances are high that you'll get an answer within a day (sometimes a
lot faster).

I could help a bit, too.  Could you say something more about your project?
- how many hymns have you entered?  Could you send the sources of the
ones which caused most problems?
- is this your first LilyPond project?
- did you try to use Frescobaldi?

hope this helps,
Janek

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Urs Liska]

He doesn't even have to copy&paste sources.
Just save it to an appropriate place and name and include it.

Hope the OP is still with us ;-)
Best
Urs
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Francisco Vila  schrieb:

2012/5/8 Colin Hall :
> On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 07:27:11AM -0700, joannesmith wrote:
>> A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
>> can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time
>
> You might prefer:
>
> http://musescore.org/
>
> and I have heard good reports of Noteworthy:
>
> http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/

Are these capable of shape notes? I'm not sure.

I strongly agree with that David said: _especially_ for 450 hymns, if
I were you, I'd go definitely for LilyPond. Dragging sounds might be
better only for 1-10 pieces at most, and still you'd have to edit them
all once and again when you decide to change the overall look.
Instead, learn to use the \include command for paper and layout blocks
in LilyPond.

An unexpected feature you could discover is, you can teach the basics
(just note entry) to people so they save those notes in a text file
with a distinct filename. Then you can copy and paste that into your
music declarations such as tenor = { } , then use those variables in a
template such as \score { << \new Staff { \tenor }  >> }

Finally, I recommend Frescobaldi for everyday work. Type some notes,
hit CTRL+M, done. Errors? hit CTRL+E.

Good luck!
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Francisco Vila]

2012/5/8 Colin Hall :
> On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 07:27:11AM -0700, joannesmith wrote:
>> A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
>> can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time
>
> You might prefer:
>
> http://musescore.org/
>
> and I have heard good reports of Noteworthy:
>
> http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/

Are these capable of shape notes? I'm not sure.

I strongly agree with that David said: _especially_ for 450 hymns, if
I were you, I'd go definitely for LilyPond. Dragging sounds might be
better only for 1-10 pieces at most, and still you'd have to edit them
all once and again when you decide to change the overall look.
Instead, learn to use the \include command for paper and layout blocks
in LilyPond.

An unexpected feature you could discover is, you can teach the basics
(just note entry) to people so they save those notes in a text file
with a distinct filename. Then you can copy and paste that into your
music declarations such as tenor = { } , then use those variables in a
template such as \score { << \new Staff { \tenor }  >> }

Finally, I recommend Frescobaldi for everyday work. Type some notes,
hit CTRL+M, done. Errors? hit CTRL+E.

Good luck!
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Johan Vromans]

joannesmith  writes:

> The easy ones only take me about 20 minutes or so, however the hard ones can
> take more than 3 hours and some I have just given up on for now. Multiply
> that by about 450 songs and it is really intimidating to me.
>
> So my question ... maybe there is another program that will better suite my
> needs?

Producing 450 typeset scores takes time. Reasonable short hyms (approx
40 bars, 3 verses of text) will require a couple of hours each, no
matter what tool you are going to use.

When you're new to LilPond, the first several scores will require much
more time, while later in the process, when you get the hang of it, and
you have developed good templates, it will be much faster.

I can recommend a tool like Frescobaldi which may be easier to get
started.

Sometimes it helps when another person reads the score and dictates the
notes to you so you only have to concentrate on entering the notes.

Once you have templates, you can ask other people to join in.

But remember: typesetting scores takes time. The end result will be your
reward.

-- Johan

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Urs Liska]

And you can/should of course put most of such a template in an include file.
So you
A) don't duplicate code unnecessarily
B) can change the setting and have this be reflected through all your scores and
C) have nice small files for the actual piece.

Best
Urs
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Colin Campbell  schrieb:

On 12-05-08 08:29 PM, Colin Campbell wrote: 



  Here is a template I modified, and I apologise to the author of the 
rehearsalMidi function, as I cannot remember where I found it.  

Discussion of the template is *so* much easier when it is actually present in 
the reply!

\version "2.15.34"

\language "english"


\header {

title = "Generic Gospel Song"

instrument = "Male Quartet"

composer = "Traditional"

arranger = "The Loan"

copyright =\markup { \char ##x00A9 2012 The Composer }

tagline = "Engraved with Lilypond"

}


\paper {

#(set-paper-size "letter")

}


global = {

\key af \major

\time 2/2

\tempo 2=96

}


tenor = \relative c' {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


lead = \relative c' {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


bari = \relative c {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


bass = \relative c {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


verse = \lyricmode {

% Lyrics follow here.

}


rehearsalMidi = #

(define-music-function

(parser location name midiInstrument lyrics) (string? string? ly:music?)

#{

\unfoldRepeats <<

\new Staff = "tenor" \new Voice = "tenor" { s1*0\f \tenor }

\new Staff = "lead" \new Voice = "lead" { s1*0\f \lead }

\new Staff = "bari" \new Voice = "bari" { s1*0\f \bari }

\new Staff = "bass" \new Voice = "bass" { s1*0\f \bass }

\context Staff = $name {

\set Score.midiMinimumVolume = #0.5

\set Score.midiMaximumVolume = #0.5

\set Score.tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 96 2)

\set Staff.midiMinimumVolume = #0.8

\set Staff.midiMaximumVolume = #1.0

\set Staff.midiInstrument = $midiInstrument

}

\new Lyrics \with {

alignBelowContext = $name

} \lyricsto $name $lyrics

>>

#})


\score {

\new ChoirStaff <<

\new Staff \with {

midiInstrument = "choir aahs"

instrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Tenor" "Lead" }

shortInstrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Tenor" "Lead" }

} <<

\clef "treble_8"

\new Voice = "tenor" { \voiceOne \tenor }

\new Voice = "lead" { \voiceTwo \lead }

>>

\new Lyrics \with {

\override VerticalAxisGroup #'staff-affinity = #CENTER

} \lyricsto "tenor" \verse

\new Staff \with {

midiInstrument = "choir aahs"

instrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Bari" "Bass" }

shortInstrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Bari" "Bass" }

} <<

\clef bass

\new Voice = "bari" { \voiceOne \bari }

\new Voice = "bass" { \voiceTwo \bass }

>>

>>

\layout { }

\midi { }

}


% Rehearsal MIDI files:

\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "tenor"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "tenor" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}


\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "lead"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "lead" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}


\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "bari"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "bari" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}


\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "bass"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "bass" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}




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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Carl Sorensen]

On 5/8/12 8:27 AM, "joannesmith"  wrote:

>
>Hello to all.
>We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes).
>We
>have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now (copied, pasted,
>written on, sloppy, taped, marked, etc.) and I have the job of making them
>all look nice. A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
>can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time The
>hymns
>are not all the same ... and some are really complicated [for me anyway].
>The easy ones only take me about 20 minutes or so, however the hard ones
>can
>take more than 3 hours and some I have just given up on for now. Multiply
>that by about 450 songs and it is really intimidating to me.

Please check out the fasoli group.  They have lots of experience in shape
notes with lilypond.






HTH,

Carl


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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Colin Campbell]

On 12-05-08 08:29 PM, Colin Campbell wrote:


  Here is a template I modified, and I apologise to the author of the 
rehearsalMidi function, as I cannot remember where I found it.


Discussion of the template is *so* much easier when it is actually 
present in the reply!


\version "2.15.34"

\language "english"


\header {

title = "Generic Gospel Song"

instrument = "Male Quartet"

composer = "Traditional"

arranger = "The Loan"

copyright =\markup { \char ##x00A9 2012 The Composer }

tagline = "Engraved with Lilypond"

}


\paper {

#(set-paper-size "letter")

}


global = {

\key af \major

\time 2/2

\tempo 2=96

}


tenor = \relative c' {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


lead = \relative c' {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


bari = \relative c {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


bass = \relative c {

\global

% Music follows here.

c

}


verse = \lyricmode {

% Lyrics follow here.

}


rehearsalMidi = #

(define-music-function

(parser location name midiInstrument lyrics) (string? string? ly:music?)

#{

\unfoldRepeats <<

\new Staff = "tenor" \new Voice = "tenor" { s1*0\f \tenor }

\new Staff = "lead" \new Voice = "lead" { s1*0\f \lead }

\new Staff = "bari" \new Voice = "bari" { s1*0\f \bari }

\new Staff = "bass" \new Voice = "bass" { s1*0\f \bass }

\context Staff = $name {

\set Score.midiMinimumVolume = #0.5

\set Score.midiMaximumVolume = #0.5

\set Score.tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 96 2)

\set Staff.midiMinimumVolume = #0.8

\set Staff.midiMaximumVolume = #1.0

\set Staff.midiInstrument = $midiInstrument

}

\new Lyrics \with {

alignBelowContext = $name

} \lyricsto $name $lyrics

>>

#})


\score {

\new ChoirStaff <<

\new Staff \with {

midiInstrument = "choir aahs"

instrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Tenor" "Lead" }

shortInstrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Tenor" "Lead" }

} <<

\clef "treble_8"

\new Voice = "tenor" { \voiceOne \tenor }

\new Voice = "lead" { \voiceTwo \lead }

>>

\new Lyrics \with {

\override VerticalAxisGroup #'staff-affinity = #CENTER

} \lyricsto "tenor" \verse

\new Staff \with {

midiInstrument = "choir aahs"

instrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Bari" "Bass" }

shortInstrumentName = \markup \center-column { "Bari" "Bass" }

} <<

\clef bass

\new Voice = "bari" { \voiceOne \bari }

\new Voice = "bass" { \voiceTwo \bass }

>>

>>

\layout { }

\midi { }

}


% Rehearsal MIDI files:

\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "tenor"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "tenor" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}


\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "lead"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "lead" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}


\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "bari"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "bari" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}


\book {

\bookOutputSuffix "bass"

\score {

\rehearsalMidi "bass" "tenor sax" \verse

\midi { }

}

}




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hands.
You need to be able to throw something back.
-Maya Angelou, poet (1928- )

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Colin Campbell]

On 12-05-08 05:51 PM, David Kastrup wrote:

joannesmith  writes:


We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes). We
have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now

[...]


Of course I am hoping for a somewhat easier program ... clicking and
dragging sounds very appealing to me right now! Does any such program
exist?

Does not sound like a good idea to me.  Clicking and dragging is a
reasonably efficient workflow for graphical arrangement, the kind of
thing you do with scissors and glue.  For writing, the orderly
arrangement of minuscule elements, a keyboard beats it hollow in the
hands of an experienced writer.  If you were talking about 10 hymns, the
savings in learning effort might make up for that.  But not 450.

Try using Frescobaldihttp://www.frescobaldi.org>  for input: it
might make you get into an efficient entry routine somewhat faster.



Another point in favour of Frescobaldi is the ability to define your own 
templates, coupled with the score creation wizard.  When you have a hymn 
set the way you like it, all voicings and spacing to your taste, save 
the result as a template.  When starting the next, use the File | New | 
From template . . . and you're away.  Here is a template I modified, 
and I apologise to the author of the rehearsalMidi function, as I cannot 
remember where I found it.  The thing I found quite wonderful about 
LIlypond is shown in the template: with minor code changes, you can 
produce all sorts of output: piano reduction, individual scores, 
rehearsal MIDIs by voice (run them through timidity and LAME to get MP3s 
for the car CD player), a master MIDI of all voices . . .  I also dump 
the MIDI tracks onto my electronic piano, for rehearsals when we need to 
slow the tempo or run individual voices.


It may be that other, proprietary programs can approach the above, but 
the combination of Lilypond and Frescobaldi is wonderful.  My only wish, 
and this comes back to the OP's problem, is that I can't yet get much of 
a handle on Audiveris.  Ah well, until then, getting a head start with 
the template and blasting the notes in by hand works remarkably well for me!


Cheers,
Colin "Why yes, I *do* rave about lilypond!" Campbell

--
My two favorite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both 
move people forward without wasting anything. The perfect day: riding a 
bike to the library.

 - Peter Golkin, museum spokesman (1966- )

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[bobr...@centrum.is]

- Original Message -
From: "Urs Liska" 
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2012 8:12:07 AM
Subject: Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

Am 08.05.2012 16:27, schrieb joannesmith:
> Hello to all.
> We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes). We
> have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now (copied, pasted,
> written on, sloppy, taped, marked, etc.) and I have the job of making them
> all look nice. A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
> can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time The hymns
> are not all the same ... and some are really complicated [for me anyway].
> The easy ones only take me about 20 minutes or so, however the hard ones can
> take more than 3 hours and some I have just given up on for now. Multiply
> that by about 450 songs and it is really intimidating to me.
>
> So my question ... maybe there is another program that will better suite my
> needs?? Or maybe there is someone here that is really good at entering a
> variety of hymns into lilypond and would be willing to help me every now and
> then??? But I feel I am too needy ... I might need more help than what
> someone is willing to give freely and I certainly do not have money to pay
> anyone!!!
>
> Of course I am hoping for a somewhat easier program ... clicking and
> dragging sounds very appealing to me right now! Does any such program exist?
>
> Thank you for your time.
I really can understand your situation. It hasn't been too long that I 
felt similarly - although I must admit (and this may be a big 
'although') that I was fascinated from the beginning, not only of 
LilyPond's quality but also by the implications of the text based approach.

If I were you I would seriously consider giving LilyPond a try.
I know the learning curve is quite steep for a considerable amount of 
time. But if you are looking at 450 pieces this is a long way on which 
you should be able to get quite comfortable with LilyPond along the way.

Especially notable (IMHO) is LilyPond's power when you are talking about 
repetitive things like 450 comparable scores.
Of course you will get your first scores faster with a graphical 
program. But with LilyPond you can for example set up a framework where 
you will only have to enter the plain music for each new hymn. If this 
framework is well thought out (OK, this isn't really trivial and may 
seem impossible for you at the moment), then you have a) a consistent 
layout throughout all your scores and b) can change any aspect of your 
layout or style at any moment practically without any hassle and have 
this reflected in all your scores (for example, besides general style 
decisions you can switch between completely different layouts or part 
collections (individual parts, conductor's vs. pocket score etc.) simply 
through commenting out single lines of code).

The LilyPond community won't do the work for you and can't relieve you 
from learning. But if you are willing to learn and ask the right 
questions you will surely experience good will and considerable 
expertise on this list (I can really tell you that :-) )

HTH
Urs

I'd like to echo what Urs said about this.  I would, however, describe the 
learning curve as 'long' rather than 'steep.'  Having said that, I would 
suggest that having a project like yours is a good way to get comfortable with 
LilyPond.  With such a large number of hymns to set you'll have an opportunity 
to 'practice' the rudiments of LilyPond and it will become quite easy in a 
fairly short time.  Ultimately you will likely find that entering music as a 
stream of text is actually much quicker dragging/clicking.  I was a fairly 
proficient Finale user and have completely abandoned commercial music printing 
software.  I have also never really been too interested in the graphical front 
ends for LilyPond as the plain text entry is so fast.

-David

As Urs said, you will figure out how to "recycle" blocks of code for scores 
reducing your workload considerably.

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[David Kastrup]

joannesmith  writes:

> We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes). We
> have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now

[...]

> Of course I am hoping for a somewhat easier program ... clicking and
> dragging sounds very appealing to me right now! Does any such program
> exist?

Does not sound like a good idea to me.  Clicking and dragging is a
reasonably efficient workflow for graphical arrangement, the kind of
thing you do with scissors and glue.  For writing, the orderly
arrangement of minuscule elements, a keyboard beats it hollow in the
hands of an experienced writer.  If you were talking about 10 hymns, the
savings in learning effort might make up for that.  But not 450.

Try using Frescobaldi http://www.frescobaldi.org> for input: it
might make you get into an efficient entry routine somewhat faster.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Urs Liska]

Am 08.05.2012 16:27, schrieb joannesmith:

Hello to all.
We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes). We
have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now (copied, pasted,
written on, sloppy, taped, marked, etc.) and I have the job of making them
all look nice. A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time The hymns
are not all the same ... and some are really complicated [for me anyway].
The easy ones only take me about 20 minutes or so, however the hard ones can
take more than 3 hours and some I have just given up on for now. Multiply
that by about 450 songs and it is really intimidating to me.

So my question ... maybe there is another program that will better suite my
needs?? Or maybe there is someone here that is really good at entering a
variety of hymns into lilypond and would be willing to help me every now and
then??? But I feel I am too needy ... I might need more help than what
someone is willing to give freely and I certainly do not have money to pay
anyone!!!

Of course I am hoping for a somewhat easier program ... clicking and
dragging sounds very appealing to me right now! Does any such program exist?

Thank you for your time.
I really can understand your situation. It hasn't been too long that I 
felt similarly - although I must admit (and this may be a big 
'although') that I was fascinated from the beginning, not only of 
LilyPond's quality but also by the implications of the text based approach.


If I were you I would seriously consider giving LilyPond a try.
I know the learning curve is quite steep for a considerable amount of 
time. But if you are looking at 450 pieces this is a long way on which 
you should be able to get quite comfortable with LilyPond along the way.


Especially notable (IMHO) is LilyPond's power when you are talking about 
repetitive things like 450 comparable scores.
Of course you will get your first scores faster with a graphical 
program. But with LilyPond you can for example set up a framework where 
you will only have to enter the plain music for each new hymn. If this 
framework is well thought out (OK, this isn't really trivial and may 
seem impossible for you at the moment), then you have a) a consistent 
layout throughout all your scores and b) can change any aspect of your 
layout or style at any moment practically without any hassle and have 
this reflected in all your scores (for example, besides general style 
decisions you can switch between completely different layouts or part 
collections (individual parts, conductor's vs. pocket score etc.) simply 
through commenting out single lines of code).


The LilyPond community won't do the work for you and can't relieve you 
from learning. But if you are willing to learn and ask the right 
questions you will surely experience good will and considerable 
expertise on this list (I can really tell you that :-) )


HTH
Urs

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Re: Too complicated and time consuming ...

[Colin Hall]

On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 07:27:11AM -0700, joannesmith wrote:
> A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
> can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time

You might prefer:
 
http://musescore.org/

and I have heard good reports of Noteworthy:

http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/

Cheers,
Colin.

-- 

Colin Hall

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Too complicated and time consuming ...

[joannesmith]

Hello to all.
We are in the process of making our own hymn books (we use shape notes). We
have about 450 hymns that are in paper format right now (copied, pasted,
written on, sloppy, taped, marked, etc.) and I have the job of making them
all look nice. A friend suggested lilypond. I appreciate all that lilypond
can do, but I find that it is taking a painful amount of time The hymns
are not all the same ... and some are really complicated [for me anyway].
The easy ones only take me about 20 minutes or so, however the hard ones can
take more than 3 hours and some I have just given up on for now. Multiply
that by about 450 songs and it is really intimidating to me.

So my question ... maybe there is another program that will better suite my
needs?? Or maybe there is someone here that is really good at entering a
variety of hymns into lilypond and would be willing to help me every now and
then??? But I feel I am too needy ... I might need more help than what
someone is willing to give freely and I certainly do not have money to pay
anyone!!!

Of course I am hoping for a somewhat easier program ... clicking and
dragging sounds very appealing to me right now! Does any such program exist?

Thank you for your time.
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