Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
THanks David for your reply, you're right, it was difficult to find in the manual...just figured it was the 'open source' thing, Having templates is a great resource, Randy On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 10:39 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > "R.D. Latimer" writes: > > > I've put together a sample fiddle tune with music notation, sample fiddle > > tab (using finger number), guitar tab (using fret number), and guitar > capo > > 2 tab (using fret number based on capo). > > > > Let me know if anyone would like me to post. > > I really have to get into the habit of answering mails sooner... > > The main question that's important to answer here is: what should the > manual have looked like to make you see right away how to do this? > > We have a few templates in the manual, but it's likely not obvious to > people how to solve this particular or a similar task without further > help. > > -- > David Kastrup > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
"R.D. Latimer" writes: > I've put together a sample fiddle tune with music notation, sample fiddle > tab (using finger number), guitar tab (using fret number), and guitar capo > 2 tab (using fret number based on capo). > > Let me know if anyone would like me to post. I really have to get into the habit of answering mails sooner... The main question that's important to answer here is: what should the manual have looked like to make you see right away how to do this? We have a few templates in the manual, but it's likely not obvious to people how to solve this particular or a similar task without further help. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
I've put together a sample fiddle tune with music notation, sample fiddle
tab (using finger number), guitar tab (using fret number), and guitar capo
2 tab (using fret number based on capo).
Let me know if anyone would like me to post.
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 8:39 AM, R.D. Latimer wrote:
> I'd like help getting started with transcribing fiddle tunes with music
> and tab.
>
> Here's my initial try (first two measures)
> The fingering for the violin is not correct in the tab. Fingering should
> be:
> 2 0 0 2 0 0 | 3 1 1 3 0 1 |
>
> I'll attach a jpeg image. Thanks for any help.
>
> Here's my source code so far:
>
> \version "2.16.2"
> \header {
> title = "Old John's Jig"
> composer = "trad"
> }
>
> \new StaffGroup <<
> \new Staff \relative c'' {
> \clef "treble"
> \key g \major
> \time 6/8
> c8 a a c a a g e e g a b
> }
>\new TabStaff \with {
> stringTunings = #violin-tuning
> }
> {
> \relative c'' {
> c8 a a c a a g e e g a b
> }
> }
> >>
>
>
>
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Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
"R.D. Latimer" writes: > HI David, > Yes I agree with all you're saying. My motivation right now is I'm > teaching some Fiddle classes to beginner types of students. I can read > music fine. In this folk tradition many/most of the players play by ear, > not by reading sheet music. > I was thinking that a violin tab in 1st position would be good for > beginners learning by ear. > > I can always print sheet music with the fingering above all the notes. A > tab notation for fiddle tunes looks nice and simple. > But maybe it's not worth the effort? Anyway, Lilypond may want to point > that out in any sections you have on Lilypond tab. Even though there's a > violin option, the way it's being done is not of much use to players...I > don't think, Well, LilyPond _does_ offer you to customize fret labels, so you can label the frets 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 easily enough 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3... and get a good approximation of what you want as long as we are talking about simple music. Or even 0, 1b, 1, 2b, 2, 3, 3#, 4 or so if you want to be consistent and complete. > Thanks again, I guess the fiddle tab is a decent idea, but not there, Well, I think I've seen tabs, but I don't remember the gritty details. And it's hard to teach something to a computer without knowing them. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
HI David, Yes I agree with all you're saying. My motivation right now is I'm teaching some Fiddle classes to beginner types of students. I can read music fine. In this folk tradition many/most of the players play by ear, not by reading sheet music. I was thinking that a violin tab in 1st position would be good for beginners learning by ear. I can always print sheet music with the fingering above all the notes. A tab notation for fiddle tunes looks nice and simple. But maybe it's not worth the effort? Anyway, Lilypond may want to point that out in any sections you have on Lilypond tab. Even though there's a violin option, the way it's being done is not of much use to players...I don't think, Thanks again, I guess the fiddle tab is a decent idea, but not there, Randy On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 10:41 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > > David Kastrup writes: > > > "R.D. Latimer" writes: > > > >> I'm searching for decent examples of violin tab, I don't see many out > there > >> on the web. > >> Here's one > >> > http://www.jaybuckey.com/pdf/Free%20Tablature/amazing_grace_fiddle_tablature.pdf > >> > >> It'd be great if Lilypond has this feature, > >> Thanks again > > > > The problem here is that this is indeed not really as much a tablature > > as a fingering chart. The information is incomplete. > > To get more concrete: let's assume that we are talking about a fiddling > piece like the following unfinished fragment I found lying on my hard > drive. The fingering instructions are not necessarily wholly complete > or accurate since I actually don't have a violin in my house and did not > have one at the time I wrote this down. > > But you should be able to figure it out nonetheless. In the first > measure, there is a already a certain position/fingering divergence > because of physical necessities. Still, this is a rather > straightforward shuffle. So how would you want to have the first > measure look in tablature? > > A scan or photograph of a sketch is fine. > > > > -- > David Kastrup > > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
David Kastrup writes:
> "R.D. Latimer" writes:
>
>> I'm searching for decent examples of violin tab, I don't see many out there
>> on the web.
>> Here's one
>> http://www.jaybuckey.com/pdf/Free%20Tablature/amazing_grace_fiddle_tablature.pdf
>>
>> It'd be great if Lilypond has this feature,
>> Thanks again
>
> The problem here is that this is indeed not really as much a tablature
> as a fingering chart. The information is incomplete.
To get more concrete: let's assume that we are talking about a fiddling
piece like the following unfinished fragment I found lying on my hard
drive. The fingering instructions are not necessarily wholly complete
or accurate since I actually don't have a violin in my house and did not
have one at the time I wrote this down.
But you should be able to figure it out nonetheless. In the first
measure, there is a already a certain position/fingering divergence
because of physical necessities. Still, this is a rather
straightforward shuffle. So how would you want to have the first
measure look in tablature?
A scan or photograph of a sketch is fine.
\language "deutsch"
\version "2.17.20"
melody = {
\clef treble
\set Staff.midiInstrument = "violin"
\key d \major
\time 4/4 % s2.. 16
16
-1-3
-1-3
-4-0 -3-4 -2-4 -4-1 -2-4 -1-4-1
}
\score {
\new Staff
\melody
\layout { }
\midi {
\tempo 4 = 60
}
}
--
David Kastrup
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Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
"R.D. Latimer" writes: > I'm searching for decent examples of violin tab, I don't see many out there > on the web. > Here's one > http://www.jaybuckey.com/pdf/Free%20Tablature/amazing_grace_fiddle_tablature.pdf > > It'd be great if Lilypond has this feature, > Thanks again The problem here is that this is indeed not really as much a tablature as a fingering chart. The information is incomplete. Now the information is less incomplete for a fiddler than a classical violinist since classical violinists tend to change positions quite more often in order not to break a phrase across strings. Fiddling tends to put quite less emphasis on legato play, and the characteristically short notes don't expose gratuitous string changes as much. So the question is just what sort of incomplete information a fiddler would be comfortable with if a chart is basically only reflecting the fingering. It's easy to teach LilyPond to print such a tab if you write the fingering and string information for each note explicitly, but you'd probably die from exasperation if you had to do so. So the question is just how one can most economically provide LilyPond with the information it needs for completing a tab. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
"R.D. Latimer" writes: > Thanks, yes that makes sense from a fret number point of view. > Unfortunately from a violinist/fiddler point of view, the semitone notation > does no good. > > For example, on a violin, in the simplest 1st position: > (2nd string) A string: A open, Bb/B 1st finger, C/C# 2nd finger, D 3rd > finger, E 4th finger or open E string > > (3rd string) D string: D open, Eb/E 1st finger, F/F# 2nd finger, G/G# 3rd > finger, A 4th or open A > > So in first position on violin, "frets 1/2" are 1st finger, "frets 3/4" are > 2nd finger, "frets 5/6" are 3rd finger. > I don't think fiddle players would want to bother trying to make this > translation in their head while playing. But the point is that tablature is supposed to convey pitches on strings, not fingerings. If you use a melodic E minor scale on the D string, you'll finger dis'-1 e'-2 fis'-3 g'-4 so the fingering is off from the positions anyway. > It would be great for fiddle players and fiddle tunes, to have a tab > for fingering. It could be argued that the normal notation is pretty close already... You're certainly off better than cellists or flutists. I _think_ that there are tabs for fiddle playing, but I don't really know how they are organized and whether the information presented there is conclusive regarding the resulting pitch. > I don't think the semitone notation will do any good for violin > playing in tab. > > Let me know if there is a way in Lilypond for tab fingering in this > case. Otherwise I'm not sure it's worth having the tab for > violin/fiddle, Maybe you can try finding out whether tabs are being used for your style of music, and if so, how they look? I come from a classical background myself, and even though I played quite a bit of folk and stuff, I don't remember having seen anything like tablature so far. I _think_ that there might be something like tab for violins, but I have no idea where I might have seen it, whether it was in use for more than just one book/author, and which style exactly was associated with it (bluegrass maybe?). In any book I have possessed, it would not have been more than a passing mention I'd think. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
I'm searching for decent examples of violin tab, I don't see many out there on the web. Here's one http://www.jaybuckey.com/pdf/Free%20Tablature/amazing_grace_fiddle_tablature.pdf It'd be great if Lilypond has this feature, Thanks again On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:45 AM, R.D. Latimer wrote: > Thanks, yes that makes sense from a fret number point of view. > Unfortunately from a violinist/fiddler point of view, the semitone notation > does no good. > > For example, on a violin, in the simplest 1st position: > (2nd string) A string: A open, Bb/B 1st finger, C/C# 2nd finger, D 3rd > finger, E 4th finger or open E string > > (3rd string) D string: D open, Eb/E 1st finger, F/F# 2nd finger, G/G# 3rd > finger, A 4th or open A > > So in first position on violin, "frets 1/2" are 1st finger, "frets 3/4" > are 2nd finger, "frets 5/6" are 3rd finger. > I don't think fiddle players would want to bother trying to make this > translation in their head while playing. > > It would be great for fiddle players and fiddle tunes, to have a tab for > fingering. > I don't think the semitone notation will do any good for violin playing in > tab. > > Let me know if there is a way in Lilypond for tab fingering in this case. > Otherwise I'm not sure it's worth having the tab for violin/fiddle, > Thanks > > > > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:18 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > >> "R.D. Latimer" writes: >> >> > I'd like help getting started with transcribing fiddle tunes with music >> and >> > tab. >> > >> > Here's my initial try (first two measures) >> > The fingering for the violin is not correct in the tab. Fingering >> should be: >> > 2 0 0 2 0 0 | 3 1 1 3 0 1 | >> >> That's a misunderstanding what a tab shows. The tab does not show >> fingerings but rather positions. And it counts those positions in >> "frets", namely semitones. As far as I can see, the results are quite >> correct. >> >> Now I haven't ever used tablature for violin, and I definitely agree >> that the numbers seem to increase ridiculously fast as a violinist would >> likely think more in wholetone positions rather than semitone positions: >> >> Playing "in third position" to a violinist means playing a major or >> minor third above playing "in first position" when using the same >> fingering. It may be different for players of violoncello or double >> bass. Or fretted instruments like a viol. >> >> So at any rate, the TAB delivers the _full_ information you need for >> playing the melody. I'm not sure how it could do so when only using a >> wholetone numbering system. >> >> Most relevantly, the TAB looks like expected by the _programmers_. Do >> you have any printed examples that would help the programmers to >> understand how it should look like in order to meet _your_ expectations? >> >> -- >> David Kastrup >> >> >> ___ >> lilypond-user mailing list >> lilypond-user@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user >> > > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
Thanks, yes that makes sense from a fret number point of view. Unfortunately from a violinist/fiddler point of view, the semitone notation does no good. For example, on a violin, in the simplest 1st position: (2nd string) A string: A open, Bb/B 1st finger, C/C# 2nd finger, D 3rd finger, E 4th finger or open E string (3rd string) D string: D open, Eb/E 1st finger, F/F# 2nd finger, G/G# 3rd finger, A 4th or open A So in first position on violin, "frets 1/2" are 1st finger, "frets 3/4" are 2nd finger, "frets 5/6" are 3rd finger. I don't think fiddle players would want to bother trying to make this translation in their head while playing. It would be great for fiddle players and fiddle tunes, to have a tab for fingering. I don't think the semitone notation will do any good for violin playing in tab. Let me know if there is a way in Lilypond for tab fingering in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure it's worth having the tab for violin/fiddle, Thanks On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:18 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > "R.D. Latimer" writes: > > > I'd like help getting started with transcribing fiddle tunes with music > and > > tab. > > > > Here's my initial try (first two measures) > > The fingering for the violin is not correct in the tab. Fingering should > be: > > 2 0 0 2 0 0 | 3 1 1 3 0 1 | > > That's a misunderstanding what a tab shows. The tab does not show > fingerings but rather positions. And it counts those positions in > "frets", namely semitones. As far as I can see, the results are quite > correct. > > Now I haven't ever used tablature for violin, and I definitely agree > that the numbers seem to increase ridiculously fast as a violinist would > likely think more in wholetone positions rather than semitone positions: > > Playing "in third position" to a violinist means playing a major or > minor third above playing "in first position" when using the same > fingering. It may be different for players of violoncello or double > bass. Or fretted instruments like a viol. > > So at any rate, the TAB delivers the _full_ information you need for > playing the melody. I'm not sure how it could do so when only using a > wholetone numbering system. > > Most relevantly, the TAB looks like expected by the _programmers_. Do > you have any printed examples that would help the programmers to > understand how it should look like in order to meet _your_ expectations? > > -- > David Kastrup > > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Violin tab for fiddle tunes
"R.D. Latimer" writes: > I'd like help getting started with transcribing fiddle tunes with music and > tab. > > Here's my initial try (first two measures) > The fingering for the violin is not correct in the tab. Fingering should be: > 2 0 0 2 0 0 | 3 1 1 3 0 1 | That's a misunderstanding what a tab shows. The tab does not show fingerings but rather positions. And it counts those positions in "frets", namely semitones. As far as I can see, the results are quite correct. Now I haven't ever used tablature for violin, and I definitely agree that the numbers seem to increase ridiculously fast as a violinist would likely think more in wholetone positions rather than semitone positions: Playing "in third position" to a violinist means playing a major or minor third above playing "in first position" when using the same fingering. It may be different for players of violoncello or double bass. Or fretted instruments like a viol. So at any rate, the TAB delivers the _full_ information you need for playing the melody. I'm not sure how it could do so when only using a wholetone numbering system. Most relevantly, the TAB looks like expected by the _programmers_. Do you have any printed examples that would help the programmers to understand how it should look like in order to meet _your_ expectations? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Violin tab for fiddle tunes
I'd like help getting started with transcribing fiddle tunes with music and
tab.
Here's my initial try (first two measures)
The fingering for the violin is not correct in the tab. Fingering should be:
2 0 0 2 0 0 | 3 1 1 3 0 1 |
I'll attach a jpeg image. Thanks for any help.
Here's my source code so far:
\version "2.16.2"
\header {
title = "Old John's Jig"
composer = "trad"
}
\new StaffGroup <<
\new Staff \relative c'' {
\clef "treble"
\key g \major
\time 6/8
c8 a a c a a g e e g a b
}
\new TabStaff \with {
stringTunings = #violin-tuning
}
{
\relative c'' {
c8 a a c a a g e e g a b
}
}
>>
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