Re: avoid slur help
2008/12/29 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk: Neil Puttock wrote Monday, December 29, 2008 1:25 PM 2008/12/29 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk: OK - have this in hand. Thanks. Trevor, I'm working on some additions to 'bound-details in changing-defaults.itely at the moment. When I've finished, I'll add some info to the section which discusses 'outside-staff-priority. OK, but is there such a section in the NR? Did you have somewhere in mind? There is quite an extended discussion in LM 4.4.3 which currently doesn't mention slurs. Perhaps it should. A new section in NR 5.4 called Vertical positioning or similar might be useful. Oops, I meant NR 4.4.5 Vertical collision avoidance. Regards, Neil ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Neil Puttock Tuesday, December 30, 2008 3:45 PM 2008/12/29 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk: Neil Puttock wrote Monday, December 29, 2008 1:25 PM 2008/12/29 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk: OK - have this in hand. Thanks. Trevor, I'm working on some additions to 'bound-details in changing-defaults.itely at the moment. When I've finished, I'll add some info to the section which discusses 'outside-staff-priority. OK, but is there such a section in the NR? Did you have somewhere in mind? There is quite an extended discussion in LM 4.4.3 which currently doesn't mention slurs. Perhaps it should. A new section in NR 5.4 called Vertical positioning or similar might be useful. Oops, I meant NR 4.4.5 Vertical collision avoidance. Ah, yes, that would be a good place. This section hasn't yet been revised, so it is probably not indexed and certainly doesn't reference LM 4.4.3, which contains a lot more about 'outside-staff-priority. If you could fix these too I'll add something about Slurs to the LM. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Am 29.12.2008 um 06:26 schrieb Werner LEMBERG:
However, there are situations where you don't have access to the
mailing list, and then you have to find it in the docs. Can you
suggest where improvements shall be added so that your specific
problem is covered?
Well then I'd have to say that the easiest, and easiest to find
thing would be an example in the section on slurs on using the
avoid-slur property for Scripts and TextScrips, something akin to
the script-priority example next to articulation.
Sounds sensible. Can you cook up a small example which demonstrates
the effect you've sought? We can easily add it to the documentation
then.
No problem:
\version 2.11.65
%%Text markups need to have the outside-staff-priority set to false
in order to be printed inside slurs.
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f
c2*1/2( s4^\markup { \natural } d4.) c8
}
I would add it to LSR myself, but that has never worked for. I leave
it someone more skilled than I.
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Re: avoid slur help
James E. Bailey wrote Monday, December 29, 2008 8:23 AM
Am 29.12.2008 um 06:26 schrieb Werner LEMBERG:
However, there are situations where you don't have access to the
mailing list, and then you have to find it in the docs. Can you
suggest where improvements shall be added so that your specific
problem is covered?
Well then I'd have to say that the easiest, and easiest to find
thing would be an example in the section on slurs on using the
avoid-slur property for Scripts and TextScrips, something akin to
the script-priority example next to articulation.
Sounds sensible. Can you cook up a small example which demonstrates
the effect you've sought? We can easily add it to the documentation
then.
No problem:
\version 2.11.65
%%Text markups need to have the outside-staff-priority set to false
in order to be printed inside slurs.
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f
c2*1/2( s4^\markup { \natural } d4.) c8
}
I would add it to LSR myself, but that has never worked for. I leave
it someone more skilled than I.
OK - have this in hand. Thanks.
Trevor
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Re: avoid slur help
2008/12/29 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk:
OK - have this in hand. Thanks.
Trevor, I'm working on some additions to 'bound-details in
changing-defaults.itely at the moment. When I've finished, I'll add
some info to the section which discusses 'outside-staff-priority.
As for the general issue with accidentals combined with scripts, I
think we need a way of supplementing the standard scripts with markup;
this would facilitate the creation of script equivalents to the markup
commands for accidentals, so they could be used for stacking with
articulations like turns and mordents, e.g.
\relative c' {
\key d \minor
cis\natural\turn
}
This would also be a simple way of implementing Reinhold's snappizz as
a proper articulation, or the accordion symbols (which have poor
positioning as markup).
I'll post a proof of concept patch later to demonstrate.
Regards,
Neil
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Re: avoid slur help
Neil Puttock wrote Monday, December 29, 2008 1:25 PM
2008/12/29 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk:
OK - have this in hand. Thanks.
Trevor, I'm working on some additions to 'bound-details in
changing-defaults.itely at the moment. When I've finished, I'll add
some info to the section which discusses 'outside-staff-priority.
OK, but is there such a section in the NR? Did you have somewhere
in mind? There is quite an extended discussion in LM 4.4.3 which
currently doesn't mention slurs. Perhaps it should. A new section
in NR 5.4 called Vertical positioning or similar might be useful.
As for the general issue with accidentals combined with scripts, I
think we need a way of supplementing the standard scripts with markup;
this would facilitate the creation of script equivalents to the markup
commands for accidentals, so they could be used for stacking with
articulations like turns and mordents, e.g.
\relative c' {
\key d \minor
cis\natural\turn
}
Sounds good.
As you know, in the meantime I added a snippet to show a delayed turn.
Thanks for the improvement, BTW :)
This would also be a simple way of implementing Reinhold's snappizz as
a proper articulation, or the accordion symbols (which have poor
positioning as markup).
I'll post a proof of concept patch later to demonstrate.
OK
Regards,
Neil
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Re: avoid slur help
Am 28.12.2008 um 06:48 schrieb Werner LEMBERG: Oh, perhaps I haven't made this clear. I have read the learning manual. I do not have it memorised. I don't use extra offset all that often. I asked for help because the ways I know of how to move the object, (namely looking in the IR for things that might control positioning the object, in this case, avoid-slur) didn't work. And I wanted help understanding it, because usually when something doesn't work the way I'm expecting, it's because I don't understand what the expected behavior is. The polemics aside, I think the most important question in this thread is: Why haven't you found the necessary information in the manual? Now that you know the answer (at least I hope you do), can you tell us the reason? http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-12/msg00745.html There's nothing there to clue me in as to why avoid-slur didn't work. Maybe missing references? Missing examples? Imprecise documentation? The information you have searched for is in another chapter? Something else? Once I learned about outside staff-priority, everything was good. Which for me is the usual situation: I get unexpected output, and then learn that there's a perfectly acceptable reason for that output. In this case: outside-staff-priority takes precedence over avoid-slur. The learning manual and exra-offset were never needed. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Once I learned about outside staff-priority, everything was good. Which for me is the usual situation: I get unexpected output, and then learn that there's a perfectly acceptable reason for that output. In this case: outside-staff-priority takes precedence over avoid-slur. The learning manual and exra-offset were never needed. However, there are situations where you don't have access to the mailing list, and then you have to find it in the docs. Can you suggest where improvements shall be added so that your specific problem is covered? Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Am 29.12.2008 um 00:17 schrieb Werner LEMBERG: Once I learned about outside staff-priority, everything was good. Which for me is the usual situation: I get unexpected output, and then learn that there's a perfectly acceptable reason for that output. In this case: outside-staff-priority takes precedence over avoid-slur. The learning manual and exra-offset were never needed. However, there are situations where you don't have access to the mailing list, and then you have to find it in the docs. Can you suggest where improvements shall be added so that your specific problem is covered? Well then I'd have to say that the easiest, and easiest to find thing would be an example in the section on slurs on using the avoid-slur property for Scripts and TextScrips, something akin to the script- priority example next to articulation. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
However, there are situations where you don't have access to the mailing list, and then you have to find it in the docs. Can you suggest where improvements shall be added so that your specific problem is covered? Well then I'd have to say that the easiest, and easiest to find thing would be an example in the section on slurs on using the avoid-slur property for Scripts and TextScrips, something akin to the script-priority example next to articulation. Sounds sensible. Can you cook up a small example which demonstrates the effect you've sought? We can easily add it to the documentation then. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 06:26:41AM +0100, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Sounds sensible. Can you cook up a small example which demonstrates the effect you've sought? We can easily add it to the documentation then. Ideally add it directly to LSR; this greatly simplifies the process of getting it into the docs. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Am 27.12.2008 um 01:07 schrieb Graham Percival: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 01:01:19AM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote: he still omitted the easiest part of helping which could have simple been, \override TextScript #'extra-offset = #'( 0.0 . -5.0), instead of the wonderful instruction in how to properly use lilypond. Of course I omitted that. You're assumed to have read the Learning Manual. In particular, LM 4.5.1 and 4.5.2. So wait, the most useful piece of information, the piece of information which could have been extremely helpful, the piece of information which I obviously forgot, otherwise I wouldn't have asked, was intentionally omitted? I realise that Graham has all of the manuals memorised and can call them up in his mind like a database, but I am not so gifted. And most of the time, I need a reminder. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:37:35AM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote: Am 27.12.2008 um 01:07 schrieb Graham Percival: Of course I omitted that. You're assumed to have read the Learning Manual. In particular, LM 4.5.1 and 4.5.2. So wait, the most useful piece of information, the piece of information which could have been extremely helpful, the piece of information which I obviously forgot, otherwise I wouldn't have asked, was intentionally omitted? I realise that Graham has all of the manuals memorised and can call them up in his mind like a database, but I am not so gifted. And most of the time, I need a reminder. It wasn't /intentionally/ omitted. I it up under the cunningly-disguised names of Moving objects and Fixing overlappign notation. You don't even need to use extra-offset; those pages list a number of other options for moving stuff around. There are plenty of pieces of info which I'll admit are hard to find in the docs, but this isn't one of them. Let me say it again, loud and clear: read the Learning Manual. A few times. There's lots of great stuff in there. - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
2008/12/27 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:37:35AM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote: Am 27.12.2008 um 01:07 schrieb Graham Percival: Of course I omitted that. You're assumed to have read the Learning Manual. In particular, LM 4.5.1 and 4.5.2. So wait, the most useful piece of information, the piece of information which could have been extremely helpful, the piece of information which I obviously forgot, otherwise I wouldn't have asked, was intentionally omitted? I realise that Graham has all of the manuals memorised and can call them up in his mind like a database, but I am not so gifted. And most of the time, I need a reminder. It wasn't /intentionally/ omitted. I it up under the cunningly-disguised names of Moving objects and Fixing overlappign notation. You don't even need to use extra-offset; those pages list a number of other options for moving stuff around. Actually, apart from 'extra-offset, there are no properties listed in either section which would be useful for fixing James's problem, since it relates to 'outside-staff-priority overriding 'avoid-slur, as I pointed out earlier in the thread. The same issue is responsible for your second 'bug' with musica ficta, since AccidentalSuggestion also has a default for 'outside-staff-priority. Regards, Neil ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Am 27.12.2008 um 19:37 schrieb Graham Percival: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 10:37:35AM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote: Am 27.12.2008 um 01:07 schrieb Graham Percival: Of course I omitted that. You're assumed to have read the Learning Manual. In particular, LM 4.5.1 and 4.5.2. So wait, the most useful piece of information, the piece of information which could have been extremely helpful, the piece of information which I obviously forgot, otherwise I wouldn't have asked, was intentionally omitted? I realise that Graham has all of the manuals memorised and can call them up in his mind like a database, but I am not so gifted. And most of the time, I need a reminder. It wasn't /intentionally/ omitted. I it up under the cunningly-disguised names of Moving objects and Fixing overlappign notation. You don't even need to use extra-offset; those pages list a number of other options for moving stuff around. There are plenty of pieces of info which I'll admit are hard to find in the docs, but this isn't one of them. Let me say it again, loud and clear: read the Learning Manual. A few times. There's lots of great stuff in there. Oh, perhaps I haven't made this clear. I have read the learning manual. I do not have it memorised. I don't use extra offset all that often. I asked for help because the ways I know of how to move the object, (namely looking in the IR for things that might control positioning the object, in this case, avoid-slur) didn't work. And I wanted help understanding it, because usually when something doesn't work the way I'm expecting, it's because I don't understand what the expected behavior is. - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Oh, perhaps I haven't made this clear. I have read the learning manual. I do not have it memorised. I don't use extra offset all that often. I asked for help because the ways I know of how to move the object, (namely looking in the IR for things that might control positioning the object, in this case, avoid-slur) didn't work. And I wanted help understanding it, because usually when something doesn't work the way I'm expecting, it's because I don't understand what the expected behavior is. The polemics aside, I think the most important question in this thread is: Why haven't you found the necessary information in the manual? Now that you know the answer (at least I hope you do), can you tell us the reason? Maybe missing references? Missing examples? Imprecise documentation? The information you have searched for is in another chapter? Something else? Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
avoid slur help
I'm having some difficulty understanding the 'avoid-slur property.
This doesn't work:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
In fact, it increases the space between the slur and the notes, but
doesn't move the markup down.
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Re: avoid slur help
james wrote:
I'm having some difficulty understanding the 'avoid-slur property. This
doesn't work:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
In fact, it increases the space between the slur and the notes, but
doesn't move the markup down.
Hi James,
So, do you want to move the natural markup down? When I comment out the
avoid-slur line in your code, the result looks pretty good to me (much
better than it does with the avoid-slur). If you want to move the
natural closer to the staff, though, it's certainly possible. Try
looking at the Moving Objects section in the Learning Manual to see
how to move the markup around:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Moving-objects#Moving-objects
HTH,
Jon
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Re: avoid slur help
Am 26.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Jonathan Kulp:
james wrote:
I'm having some difficulty understanding the 'avoid-slur property.
This doesn't work:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
In fact, it increases the space between the slur and the notes,
but doesn't move the markup down.
Hi James,
So, do you want to move the natural markup down?
No, I want the natural under the slur. Which I what I thought inside
did.
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Re: avoid slur help
James E. Bailey wrote:
Am 26.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Jonathan Kulp:
james wrote:
I'm having some difficulty understanding the 'avoid-slur property.
This doesn't work:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
In fact, it increases the space between the slur and the notes, but
doesn't move the markup down.
Hi James,
So, do you want to move the natural markup down?
No, I want the natural under the slur. Which I what I thought inside did.
You can make it go under the slur with extra-offset:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'extra-offset = #'( 0.0 . -4.0)
% \override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
Is the natural sign supposed to apply to the D? If so then I'd just use
d!4. instead.
Jon
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Re: avoid slur help
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Am Freitag, 26. Dezember 2008 14:33:11 schrieb Jonathan Kulp:
James E. Bailey wrote:
Am 26.12.2008 um 13:15 schrieb Jonathan Kulp:
james wrote:
I'm having some difficulty understanding the 'avoid-slur property.
This doesn't work:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
In fact, it increases the space between the slur and the notes, but
doesn't move the markup down.
Hi James,
So, do you want to move the natural markup down?
No, I want the natural under the slur. Which I what I thought inside did.
Apparently, it reserves space for the natural below the slur, but still places
the natural above the slur. Looks like a bug to me...
You can make it go under the slur with extra-offset:
the problem with extra-offset is that this does not affect spacing at all! In
particular, the skyline (that is used for staff spacing and for collisions
with other objects) will still be the same old skyline as it was before the
extra-offset. See the attached sample with skyline-debugging enabled. Notice
that LilyPond still reserves space for the natural above the slur!
Is the natural sign supposed to apply to the D?
I'm not sure.
If so then I'd just use d!4. instead.
No, it was common practice to put accidentals above notes in older times.
Sometimes these were meant to be optional, sometimes they were cautinary
accidentals. In any case, if you try to be close to the source, you should
write it above the note and not as d!4.
Cheers,
Reinhold
- --
- --
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
* Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
* http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
* LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
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gCR/Ej1BwlrCACpJElI9eUc=
=a7vX
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
\version 2.11.65
#(ly:set-option 'debug-skylines #t)
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'extra-offset = #'( 0.0 . -4.0)
% \override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
a.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: avoid slur help
On 26.12.2008 (15:06), Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: If so then I'd just use d!4. instead. No, it was common practice to put accidentals above notes in older times. Sometimes these were meant to be optional, sometimes they were cautinary accidentals. In any case, if you try to be close to the source, you should write it above the note and not as d!4. Slight correction: it is customary in modern editions to put editorial accidentals above the note. They are not optional, but frequently left to the performer to apply, according to more or less strict rules (see Musica ficta in the docs). Eyolf -- It's all GNU to me. -- From a Slashdot.org post ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Hi James, 2008/12/26 James E. Bailey derhindem...@googlemail.com: No, I want the natural under the slur. Which I what I thought inside did. You'll have to turn off 'outside-staff-priority for TextScript, since it takes precendence over 'avoid-slur. \override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f Regards, Neil ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
2008/12/26 james derhindem...@googlemail.com:
I'm having some difficulty understanding the 'avoid-slur property. This
doesn't work:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c2*1/2( s4^\markup {\natural} d4.) c8
}
What's the musical sense of this?
Maybe what you want is
\set suggestAccidentals = ##t
c2( d!4.) c8
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Re: avoid slur help
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 03:50:46PM +0100, Eyolf ?strem wrote: On 26.12.2008 (15:06), Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: If so then I'd just use d!4. instead. No, it was common practice to put accidentals above notes in older times. Sometimes these were meant to be optional, sometimes they were cautinary accidentals. In any case, if you try to be close to the source, you should write it above the note and not as d!4. Slight correction: it is customary in modern editions to put editorial accidentals above the note. They are not optional, but frequently left to the performer to apply, according to more or less strict rules (see Musica ficta in the docs). Thanks, Eyolf. I was going to post something very sarcastic. :) No, wait -- I'm going to do that anyway. *ahem* To everybody apart from Eyolf who posted in this thread: musica ficta can be found through a see also link under NR 1.1 Accidentals, directly in NR 2.8.3 Annotational accidentals (musica ficta), or in NR appendix F index. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
Neil, thanks for the help, now I guess I move on to the next part of
this problem:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override Script #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override TextScript #'script-priority = #-100
\override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f
c2*1/2( s4^\markup \center-column {\natural}^\turn d4.) c8
}
And it's so close, too.
Perhaps Graham can point me in the direction of the appropriate
section of the documentation. It would be very helpful, and most
appreciated.
inline: avoid slur.png
Am 26.12.2008 um 17:57 schrieb Graham Percival:
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 03:50:46PM +0100, Eyolf ?strem wrote:
On 26.12.2008 (15:06), Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
If so then I'd just use d!4. instead.
No, it was common practice to put accidentals above notes in
older times.
Sometimes these were meant to be optional, sometimes they were
cautinary
accidentals. In any case, if you try to be close to the source,
you should
write it above the note and not as d!4.
Slight correction: it is customary in modern editions to put
editorial
accidentals above the note. They are not optional, but frequently
left to
the performer to apply, according to more or less strict rules
(see Musica
ficta in the docs).
Thanks, Eyolf. I was going to post something very sarcastic. :)
No, wait -- I'm going to do that anyway. *ahem*
To everybody apart from Eyolf who posted in this thread: musica
ficta can be found through a see also link under NR 1.1
Accidentals, directly in NR 2.8.3 Annotational accidentals (musica
ficta), or in NR appendix F index.
Cheers,
- Graham
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Re: avoid slur help
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 09:46:07PM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote: Neil, thanks for the help, now I guess I move on to the next part of this problem: What's the problem? By that question, I mean what's the musical intent of that lilypond code?. Because to me, it looks like you're trying to create a musica ficta accidental the wrong way. But the solution to that was already posted... so what *are* you trying to do? Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: avoid slur help
In the meantime, I figured out another solution: I can just do
everything in markup, and set the baseline skip myself.
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f
c2*1/2( s4^\markup \tiny \override #'(baseline-skip . 1)
{ \center-column {\musicglyph #accidentals.natural \musicglyph
#scripts.turn } }d4.) c8
}
Am 26.12.2008 um 21:46 schrieb James E. Bailey:
Neil, thanks for the help, now I guess I move on to the next part
of this problem:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override Script #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override TextScript #'script-priority = #-100
\override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f
c2*1/2( s4^\markup \center-column {\natural}^\turn d4.) c8
}
And it's so close, too.
Perhaps Graham can point me in the direction of the appropriate
section of the documentation. It would be very helpful, and most
appreciated.avoid slur.png
Am 26.12.2008 um 17:57 schrieb Graham Percival:
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 03:50:46PM +0100, Eyolf ?strem wrote:
On 26.12.2008 (15:06), Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
If so then I'd just use d!4. instead.
No, it was common practice to put accidentals above notes in
older times.
Sometimes these were meant to be optional, sometimes they were
cautinary
accidentals. In any case, if you try to be close to the source,
you should
write it above the note and not as d!4.
Slight correction: it is customary in modern editions to put
editorial
accidentals above the note. They are not optional, but frequently
left to
the performer to apply, according to more or less strict rules
(see Musica
ficta in the docs).
Thanks, Eyolf. I was going to post something very sarcastic. :)
No, wait -- I'm going to do that anyway. *ahem*
To everybody apart from Eyolf who posted in this thread: musica
ficta can be found through a see also link under NR 1.1
Accidentals, directly in NR 2.8.3 Annotational accidentals (musica
ficta), or in NR appendix F index.
Cheers,
- Graham
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Re: avoid slur help
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Am Freitag, 26. Dezember 2008 21:46:07 schrieb James E. Bailey:
Neil, thanks for the help, now I guess I move on to the next part of
this problem:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override Script #'avoid-slur = #'inside
\override TextScript #'script-priority = #-100
\override TextScript #'outside-staff-priority = ##f
c2*1/2( s4^\markup \center-column {\natural}^\turn d4.) c8
}
Ah, so you are actually trying to create a delayed turn (where the lower note
of the turn uses the natural).
I could swear that I have seen some lilypond code to create such turns (both
with an accidental for the upper and one for the lower note of the turn), but
I'm unable to find it, neither on LSR nor in the NR...
Cheers,
Reinhold
- --
- --
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
* Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
* http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
* LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org
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Re: avoid slur help
Am 26.12.2008 um 17:57 schrieb Graham Percival:
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 03:50:46PM +0100, Eyolf ?strem wrote:
On 26.12.2008 (15:06), Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
If so then I'd just use d!4. instead.
No, it was common practice to put accidentals above notes in
older times.
Sometimes these were meant to be optional, sometimes they were
cautinary
accidentals. In any case, if you try to be close to the source,
you should
write it above the note and not as d!4.
Slight correction: it is customary in modern editions to put
editorial
accidentals above the note. They are not optional, but frequently
left to
the performer to apply, according to more or less strict rules
(see Musica
ficta in the docs).
Thanks, Eyolf. I was going to post something very sarcastic. :)
No, wait -- I'm going to do that anyway. *ahem*
To everybody apart from Eyolf who posted in this thread: musica
ficta can be found through a see also link under NR 1.1
Accidentals,
Perhaps you have a different version of the manual, but I don't see
Accidentals under NR 1.1. I see Writing pitches, Changing multiple
pitches, Displaying pitches and Note heads. Or were you talking about
the 2.10 documentation? (Where I, incidentally, don't see a link to
musica ficta.)
directly in NR 2.8.3 Annotational accidentals (musica
ficta), or in NR appendix F index.
Ah, I do see the musica ficta there, and, seeing as how you didn't
provide an example, I am left to my own devices to solve a problem
that I thought I said I was having difficulty solving. However, using
the \set suggestAccidentals, which is all I can assume you meant to
tell me about, I come to the conclusion of:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override TextScript #'avoid-slur = #'inside
{c2(} \new Voice { s4 \hideNotes \once \set suggestAccidentals
= ##t cis4^\turn \unHideNotes} d4.) c8
}
which still doesn't have everything under the slur. So, Graham, while
I thank you for your attempt, I find your help, without examples,
rather unhelpful.
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Re: avoid slur help
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:40:12PM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote:
Am 26.12.2008 um 17:57 schrieb Graham Percival:
To everybody apart from Eyolf who posted in this thread: musica
ficta can be found through a see also link under NR 1.1
Accidentals,
Perhaps you have a different version of the manual, but I don't see
Accidentals under NR 1.1.
Ok. NR 1.1.1. I would consider that to be under NR 1.1, but I
admit that I forgot the final .1.
directly in NR 2.8.3 Annotational accidentals (musica
ficta), or in NR appendix F index.
Ah, I do see the musica ficta there, and, seeing as how you didn't
provide an example, I am left to my own devices to solve a problem that I
thought I said I was having difficulty solving. However, using the \set
suggestAccidentals, which is all I can assume you meant to tell me about,
Well, first start off with a simple example:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
c4(
\once \set suggestAccidentals = ##t
cis d4.) c8
}
Hmm, it prints an error message. It would be helpful to report
this to the bug list.
Then try to make it behave properly:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override AccidentalSuggestion #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c4(
\once \set suggestAccidentals = ##t
cis d4.) c8
}
Nope, it ain't moving. Let's make sure that there's enough space:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override Slur #'ratio = #8.0
\override Slur #'height-limit = #8.0
\override AccidentalSuggestion #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c4(
\once \set suggestAccidentals = ##t
cis d4.) c8
}
Still ain't working. OK, time for another bug report. Oh wait;
first do a quick search to see if this has been reported before:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=1q=suggestAccidentals
(I forgot this step just a day or two ago, and boy did I feel like
an idiot!)
Nope, not reported. So now you send those two bug reports to the
bug list, and use some ugly hack with #'extra-offset and the Slur
overrides to get the output you want. It's not pretty, but even
lilypond has bugs. In fact, over 200 of them!
Once you've identified bugs, report them, use a workaround (and in
my experience, extra-offset is almost always the cheapest, easiest
thing to do) and get on with life.
Cheers,
- Graham
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Re: avoid slur help
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Am Freitag, 26. Dezember 2008 23:40:12 schrieb James E. Bailey:
Am 26.12.2008 um 17:57 schrieb Graham Percival:
To everybody apart from Eyolf who posted in this thread: musica
ficta can be found through a see also link under NR 1.1
Accidentals,
Perhaps you have a different version of the manual, but I don't see
Accidentals under NR 1.1. I see Writing pitches,
See NR 1.1.1 - Accidentals...
directly in NR 2.8.3 Annotational accidentals (musica
ficta), or in NR appendix F index.
Ah, I do see the musica ficta there, and, seeing as how you didn't
provide an example, I am left to my own devices to solve a problem
that I thought I said I was having difficulty solving.
Actually, your problem has nothing to do with musica ficta. You are trying to
typeset a turn ornament with an accidental above/below (see e.g.
http://musicxml.org/xml/samples/MozaChloSample.pdf). The accidental in this
case does NOT apply to the note itself, but to a note that is played as part
of the turn. In particular, the c2 with the delayed turn (with the natural
below the turn) is actually played as:
c4 d16 c16 b!16 c16
Without the natural below the turn (and assuming you were cutting that part
from a piece set with at least one flat in the key signature, e.g. \key f
\major), the turn would be played as
c4 d16 c16 bes16 c16
(Notice the difference in b and bes).
One possible solution is to print the turn and the accidental in one markup:
\markup {\column {\musicglyph #scripts.turn \natural}}
Of course, then you are still left with your slur problem. Plus, the natural
sign is too far below the turn in this markup...
Cheers,
Reinhold
- --
- --
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
* Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
* http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
* LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org
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Re: avoid slur help
Am 26.12.2008 um 23:59 schrieb Graham Percival:
Well, first start off with a simple example:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
c4(
\once \set suggestAccidentals = ##t
cis d4.) c8
}
Hmm, it prints an error message. It would be helpful to report
this to the bug list.
You know, I never know if those things are actual bugs, or simply due
to my lack of understanding how the program works. I never know if
what I'm seeing is erroneous output, or erroneous input.
Then try to make it behave properly:
\version 2.11.65
\relative c'' {
\override AccidentalSuggestion #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c4(
\once \set suggestAccidentals = ##t
cis d4.) c8
}
…use some ugly hack with #'extra-offset and the Slur
overrides to get the output you want.
This is the point at which I asked the list for help. I didn't come
to the concept of using #'extra-offset on my own, and a simple try
using #'extra-offset for the slur would probably have sufficed to
point me in the direction I needed (in fact, jonathan kulp suggested
it, and came very close to what I ended up using as my workaround. I
did get useful help. But, from our resident chairman of the not-warm-
and-fuzzy committee, I got premeditated sarcasm that related to a
completely different issue, and when I forced the point of how *not*
helpful that information was, I got tons of examples of how my
problem was *not* solved, and a suggestion to do something that had
already been suggested and illustrated. So, while this time, our
resident not-warm-and-fuzzy committee chairman did provide examples
so we didn't have to guess what he meant, he still omitted the
easiest part of helping which could have simple been, \override
TextScript #'extra-offset = #'( 0.0 . -5.0), instead of the wonderful
instruction in how to properly use lilypond.
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Re: avoid slur help
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 01:01:19AM +0100, James E. Bailey wrote: he still omitted the easiest part of helping which could have simple been, \override TextScript #'extra-offset = #'( 0.0 . -5.0), instead of the wonderful instruction in how to properly use lilypond. Of course I omitted that. You're assumed to have read the Learning Manual. In particular, LM 4.5.1 and 4.5.2. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
