lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Klaus Föhl]

Hello,

Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche Rechtschreibung
feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is "lecker", with hyphen
it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose not le -- cker)
the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond trial and error
to avoid lec-ker or lekker?

Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker" for forcing
a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to "lek -- ker".
Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything in the 2.16 doc)?

Cheers
Klaus


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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Klaus Föhl  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche Rechtschreibung
> feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is "lecker", with hyphen
> it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose not le -- cker)
> the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond trial and error
> to avoid lec-ker or lekker?
>
> Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker" for forcing
> a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to "lek -- ker".
> Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything in the 2.16 doc)?

I'm working on this, and i hope that this will be available in next weeks.

Janek

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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Mats Bengtsson]

On 03/08/2013 03:52 PM, lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org wrote:

Hello,

Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche Rechtschreibung
feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is "lecker", with hyphen
it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose not le -- cker)
the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond trial and error
to avoid lec-ker or lekker?

Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker" for forcing
a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to "lek -- ker".
Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything in the 2.16 doc)?

The following should make it:

  \context {
\Lyrics
\override LyricHyphen #'minimum-distance = #1
  }


   /Mats

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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Alexander Kobel]

On 03/08/2013 10:19 AM, Mats Bengtsson wrote:


On 03/08/2013 03:52 PM, lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org wrote:

Hello,

Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche Rechtschreibung
feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is "lecker", with
hyphen
it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose not le --
cker)
the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond trial and
error
to avoid lec-ker or lekker?

Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker" for forcing
a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to "lek -- ker".
Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything in the 2.16
doc)?

The following should make it:

\context {
\Lyrics
\override LyricHyphen #'minimum-distance = #1
}


I think Klaus did not ask for forcing the hyphen to be visible, or 
forcing it to be hidden, but instead choose the letters depending on 
whether the hyphen appears or not in that place (with automatic 
deduction how cramped the space is).



Best,
Alexander

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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Olivier Biot]

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Alexander Kobel  wrote:

> On 03/08/2013 10:19 AM, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
>
>>
>> On 03/08/2013 03:52 PM, lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche Rechtschreibung
>>> feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is "lecker", with
>>> hyphen
>>> it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose not le --
>>> cker)
>>> the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond trial and
>>> error
>>> to avoid lec-ker or lekker?
>>>
>>> Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker" for forcing
>>> a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to "lek -- ker".
>>> Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything in the 2.16
>>> doc)?
>>>
>> The following should make it:
>>
>> \context {
>> \Lyrics
>> \override LyricHyphen #'minimum-distance = #1
>> }
>>
>
> I think Klaus did not ask for forcing the hyphen to be visible, or forcing
> it to be hidden, but instead choose the letters depending on whether the
> hyphen appears or not in that place (with automatic deduction how cramped
> the space is).
>

So this boils down to finding a functional hyphenation algorithm for each
language.

If no hyphen is needed, then write "lecker". Otherwise write "lek-ker". On
a side note, I didn't know this German hyphenation variant. In Dutch we
have similar constructs involving the use (or not) of accents, such as in
"zoëven/zo-even" and "beëdigde/be-edigde/beë-dig-de/" involving even more
than one variant.

I suppose if such things happen, we _should_ be able to write something
as"lecker/leck-ker".

Not sure though how to implement this.

Best regards,

Olivier
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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Alexander Kobel]

On 03/09/2013 06:37 PM, Olivier Biot wrote:

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Alexander Kobel mailto:n...@a-kobel.de>> wrote:

On 03/08/2013 10:19 AM, Mats Bengtsson wrote:


On 03/08/2013 03:52 PM, lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org
 wrote:

Hello,

Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche
Rechtschreibung
feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is
"lecker", with
hyphen
it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose
not le --
cker)
the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond
trial and
error
to avoid lec-ker or lekker?

Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker"
for forcing
a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to
"lek -- ker".
Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything
in the 2.16
doc)?

The following should make it:

\context {
\Lyrics
\override LyricHyphen #'minimum-distance = #1
}


I think Klaus did not ask for forcing the hyphen to be visible, or
forcing it to be hidden, but instead choose the letters depending on
whether the hyphen appears or not in that place (with automatic
deduction how cramped the space is).


So this boils down to finding a functional hyphenation algorithm for
each language.


True.


If no hyphen is needed, then write "lecker". Otherwise write "lek-ker".
On a side note, I didn't know this German hyphenation variant. In Dutch
we have similar constructs involving the use (or not) of accents, such
as in "zoëven/zo-even" and "beëdigde/be-edigde/beë-dig-de/" involving
even more than one variant.


I don't get why the last one is more than one variant; isn't it the way 
that the little dots (don't know their name right now) disappear if and 
only if there is a hyphen just in front of the letter?


On a different side note, it'd also be really nice if one could specify 
that no additional space should be introduced if there is no hyphen. At 
least that's how hand-engraved scores seem to do if horizontal space is 
at a premium: write the word as one word, even if the alignment to the 
note heads is slightly off.

But I guess and hope that's also part of Janek's ongoing work?


Best,
Alexander

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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Janek Warchoł]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:08 AM, Alexander Kobel  wrote:
> On a different side note, it'd also be really nice if one could specify that
> no additional space should be introduced if there is no hyphen. At least
> that's how hand-engraved scores seem to do if horizontal space is at a
> premium: write the word as one word, even if the alignment to the note heads
> is slightly off.
> But I guess and hope that's also part of Janek's ongoing work?

yes, and i hope that i won't fail you.

best,
Janek

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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Thomas Morley]

2013/3/8 Klaus Föhl :
> Hello,
>
> Some German lyrics from before the times of Neue Deutsche Rechtschreibung
> feature ck between two syllables. Without Hyphen it is "lecker", with hyphen
> it is "lek-ker". Using lec -- ker or lek -- ker ( on purpose not le -- cker)
> the hyphen may or may not appear. Is there anything beyond trial and error
> to avoid lec-ker or lekker?
>
> Some time ago there was an idea of introducing "lek == ker" for forcing
> a hyphen but otherwise no change to formatting compared to "lek -- ker".
> Has there happened anything since (I did not find anything in the 2.16 doc)?
>
> Cheers
> Klaus

Hi Klaus,

below a workaround.

It's not widely tested and I expect a weird midi, though, it's the
best I currently can think of.

\version "2.16.0"

CKHyphenation =
\override LyricHyphen #'after-line-breaking =
  #(lambda (grob)
(let* ((stil (ly:grob-property grob 'stencil))
   (stil-length
 (if (ly:stencil? stil)
 (interval-length (ly:stencil-extent stil X))
 0))
   (bound-left (ly:spanner-bound grob LEFT))
   (text-left (ly:grob-property bound-left 'text))
   (last-char-text-left
 (if (string? text-left)
 (string-take-right text-left 1)
 ""))
   (new-left-text
 (if (string? text-left)
 (string-append
(string-drop-right text-left 1)
"c")
 ""))
   (bound-right (ly:spanner-bound grob RIGHT))
   (text-right (ly:grob-property bound-right 'text))
   (first-char-text-right
 (if (string? text-right)
 (string-take text-right 1)
 ""))
   (new-right-text
 (if (string? text-right)
 text-right
 ""))
   (new-text (string-append new-left-text new-right-text))
   (new-left-text-stil (grob-interpret-markup grob (markup
#:fontsize 1 new-text

   (if (and (string=? "k" last-char-text-left)
(string=? "k" first-char-text-right)
;; not sure about the value
(< stil-length 0.1))
(begin
  (ly:grob-set-property! bound-left 'stencil new-left-text-stil)
  (ly:grob-set-property! bound-right 'stencil empty-stencil)

%%% TEST

\layout {
\context {
\Lyrics
\CKHyphenation
}
}

lyr = \lyricmode {
lek -- ker. lek -- ker. lek -- ker. lek -- ker.
}

mus = \relative c' {
c d c d c d c2 \break
d1
}

staffAndLyr =
  <<
  \new Voice = "mel" \mus
  \new Lyrics \lyricsto "mel" \lyr
  >>

\score {
  \staffAndLyr
  \layout { line-width = 30 }
}

\score {
  \staffAndLyr
  \layout { line-width = 58 }
}

\score {
  \staffAndLyr
  \layout { line-width = 65 }
}

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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Klaus Föhl]

Alexander Kobel wrote:
> I think Klaus did not ask for forcing the hyphen to be visible,
> or forcing it to be hidden, but instead choose the letters
> depending on whether the hyphen appears or not in that place
> (with automatic deduction how cramped the space is).

Correct. Nevertheless if a forced hyphen is much easier to achieve
than automatic c/k selection, that would be acceptable as well.
In some cases a forced hyphen would be welcome by itself
as a rhythm indication for singers.

Cheers
Klaus



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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[Klaus Föhl]

Olivier Biot wrote:
> If no hyphen is needed, then write "lecker". Otherwise write "lek-ker".

A manually written hyphen as in lek-ker looks different to lek -- ker,
and then there is the alignment difference when writing lecker _ 

> On a side note, I didn't know this German hyphenation variant.

This hyphenation rule has been withdrawn with the spelling reform.
Nowadays it is le -- cker (and the issue is gone). But then I feel
if one upgrades lyrics to the new standard some essence can be lost.

Regards
Klaus


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Re: lecker lek-ker in "old" German lyrics

[David Kastrup]

Klaus Föhl  writes:

> Olivier Biot wrote:
>> If no hyphen is needed, then write "lecker". Otherwise write "lek-ker".
>
> A manually written hyphen as in lek-ker looks different to lek -- ker,
> and then there is the alignment difference when writing lecker _ 
>
>> On a side note, I didn't know this German hyphenation variant.
>
> This hyphenation rule has been withdrawn with the spelling reform.
> Nowadays it is le -- cker (and the issue is gone). But then I feel if
> one upgrades lyrics to the new standard some essence can be lost.

I don't go for the spelling reform, but independent from that I consider
it a workable idea at least for classical singing to disregard
grammatical hyphenation and instead stick the consonants to the next
syllable.

It avoids singers singing consonants for half a bar...

-- 
David Kastrup


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