reference for well-shaped slurs

[Mason Hock]

\shapeII works very well for tweaking ugly slurs. The only problem is that, 
while it is easy to identify "bad" slurs, I find it difficult to determine what 
makes a slur "good." It seems that the more time I spend tweaking a slur the 
more I overthink it and the less sure I am of how it should look. Some examples 
are below.

I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to find well-engraved scores that deal 
with the scenarios I'm running into. Can anyone share a high-quality score that 
contains a lot of slurs? A lilyponded score using \shape II would be amazing, 
but even a pdf of a good score would be a helpful reference.

I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who is experienced with \shapeII 
about their thought process and workflow. Specifically;
- In which situations do you choose to tweak a slur instead of accepting the 
default?
- What factors do you consider when shaping a slur (collisions, contour of 
noteheads, etc.)?
- In what sitations do you use polar vs cartesian coordinates?
- Any general advice on predicting how changes to control points will affect 
certain details of a slur apart from trial and error?

Thanks,

Mason

- example 1 ---
\version "2.19.81"

\include "oll-core/package.ily"
\loadModule bezier.shapeII

\relative c' {
  c'16(^\markup\tiny { The end points are too far from the noteheads. } g' c 
c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) |
  \shapeII #'((h)()()(h)) Slur
  c16(^\markup\tiny { Now the slur collides with a notehead. } g' c c,) c16( g' 
c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) |
  \shapeII #'((h)()(0 1.5)(h)) Slur
  c16(^\markup\tiny { Collision fixed, but slur does not follow melodic 
contour. } g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) |
  \shapeII #'((h)(2 .5)(1.2 1)(h)) Slur
  c16(^\markup\tiny { But I'm not sure that this is correct either. } g' c c,) 
c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16(^\markup\tiny { bug? } g' c c,) |
}
---

- example 2 ---
\version "2.19.81"
\language "english"

\include "oll-core/package.ily"
\loadModule bezier.shapeII

\relative c' {
  \accidentalStyle neo-modern
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs'8([^\markup\tiny { Slurs collide with accidentals. } 
aqs') cs,( a') cqs,( aqf') c,( af') bqs,( gqs')] } |
  \shapeII #'(()(0 3)(0 3)()) Slur
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs,8([^\markup\tiny { Need to handle each accidental 
differently.
 } aqs') cs,( a') cqs,( aqf') c,( af') bqs,( gqs')] } |
  \break
  \shapeII #'(()()(0 1.5)()) Slur
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs,8([^\markup\tiny{ But should I shape each slur around the 
accidental? } aqs')
 \shapeII #'(()()(-0.5 2)()) Slur
 cs,( a')
 \shapeII #'(()()(1 3)()) Slur
 cqs,( aqf')
 \shapeII #'(()(1 1)(-0.3 2.7)()) Slur
 c,( af')
 \shapeII #'(()(0.5 0)(0 1.5)()) Slur
 bqs,( gqs')] } |
  \shapeII #'(()(0 1.2)(0 1.2)()) Slur
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs,8([^\markup\tiny{ And how far should the slur be from the 
accidental? }^\markup\tiny{ Or should same melodic gesture have similar slur 
shape? } aqs')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 1.5)(0 1.5)()) Slur
 cs,( a')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 3)(0 3)()) Slur
 cqs,( aqf')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 2)(0 2)()) Slur
 c,( af')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 1)(0 1)()) Slur
 bqs,( gqs')] } |
}
---


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Re: reference for well-shaped slurs

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Mason,

I use \shapeII extensively.

I think the point about engraving is that while rules based, it is an art,
and the result depends on the skill and good taste of the user. There is no
definitive 'good slur'. The function therefore has two uses, one to fix
lilypond slurs that are not entirely felicitous, and the other to shape to
your taste.

As for predicting the result, you get to know when you use it as much as I
do - just experience. I myself always use polar coordinates as to my mind
the angle indicates the trajectory clearly. But the function is very
flexible.

Just my two bits worth.

Andrew
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Re: reference for well-shaped slurs

[Mason Hock]

Thanks for your response, Andrew. 

Since you say that you use \shapeII frequently, I wonder if you ever find that 
\shapeII creates an upside-down slur
 like in the first example of mt previous message, or that it sometimes causes 
systems to appear on top of each oth
er, as below? Are these bugs, or am I doing something wrong? Do you have a fix 
or workaround?

Thanks,

Mason

---
\version "2.19.81"
\language "english"

\include "oll-core/package.ily"
\loadModule bezier.shapeII

\relative c' {
  c'16(^\markup\tiny { The end points are too far from the noteheads. } g' c 
c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) |
  \shapeII #'((h)()()(h)) Slur
  c16(^\markup\tiny { Now the slur collides with a notehead. } g' c c,) c16( g' 
c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) |
  \shapeII #'((h)()(0 1.5)(h)) Slur
  c16(^\markup\tiny { Collision fixed, but slur does not follow melodic 
contour. } g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) |
  \shapeII #'((h)(2 .5)(1.2 1)(h)) Slur
  c16(^\markup\tiny { But I'm not sure that this is correct either. } g' c c,) 
c16( g' c c,) c16( g' c c,) c16(^\markup\tiny { bug? } g' c c,) |

  \accidentalStyle neo-modern
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs'8([^\markup\tiny { Slurs collide with accidentals. } 
aqs') cs,( a') cqs,( aqf') c,( af') bqs,( gqs')] } |
  \shapeII #'(()(0 3)(0 3)()) Slur
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs,8([^\markup\tiny { Need to handle each accidental 
differently.
 } aqs') cs,( a') cqs,( aqf') c,( af') bqs,( gqs')] } |
  \break
  \shapeII #'(()()(0 1.5)()) Slur
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs,8([^\markup\tiny{ But should I shape each slur around the 
accidental? } aqs')
 \shapeII #'(()()(-0.5 2)()) Slur
 cs,( a')
 \shapeII #'(()()(1 3)()) Slur
 cqs,( aqf')
 \shapeII #'(()(1 1)(-0.3 2.7)()) Slur
 c,( af')
 \shapeII #'(()(0.5 0)(0 1.5)()) Slur
 bqs,( gqs')] } |
  \shapeII #'(()(0 1.2)(0 1.2)()) Slur
  \tuplet 10/8 { ctqs,8([^\markup\tiny{ And how far should the slur be from the 
accidental? }^\markup\tiny{ Or should same melodic gesture have similar slur 
shape? } aqs')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 1.5)(0 1.5)()) Slur
 cs,( a')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 3)(0 3)()) Slur
 cqs,( aqf')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 2)(0 2)()) Slur
 c,( af')
 \shapeII #'(()(0 1)(0 1)()) Slur
 bqs,( gqs')] } |
}
---


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Re: reference for well-shaped slurs

[foxfanfare]

Dummy question: what is the difference in using \shape or \shapeII ?



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Re: reference for well-shaped slurs

[Urs Liska]

Am 12.06.2018 um 11:23 schrieb foxfanfare:

Dummy question: what is the difference in using \shape or \shapeII ?


\shape is a function that has been included into LilyPond at one point, 
so it is just available 
(http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/modifying-shapes).


\shapeII is a powerful improvement of \shape, but hasn't made its way 
into LilyPond itself, I think mainly because its developer doesn't 
actually work on LilyPond anymore and noone else really picked it up and 
managed to make it stable enough to be proposed.


So \shapeII is only available through an openLilyLib package as can be 
seen from the original post's code example.


HTH
Urs





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Re: reference for well-shaped slurs

[Simon Albrecht]

On 12.06.2018 04:20, Mason Hock wrote:

Since you say that you use \shapeII frequently, I wonder if you ever find that 
\shapeII creates an upside-down slur
  like in the first example of mt previous message, or that it sometimes causes 
systems to appear on top of each oth
er, as below? Are these bugs, or am I doing something wrong? Do you have a fix 
or workaround?


At least the latter problem I know, and it only occurs when referencing 
note-heads for individual control points. Have a look at 
.


Best, Simon

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