Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Urs Liska]

Am 12.07.2016 um 09:39 schrieb Orm Finnendahl:
> Am Dienstag, den 12. Juli 2016 um 09:26:38 Uhr (+0200) schrieb Urs Liska:
>> You know that in Karlsruhe every student of music informatics and
>> musicology has to take a class in common lisp (in their 3rd
>> semester)?
> In Essen its part of the curriculum as well, but I'm not aware of many
> younger composers actually using it in earnest.
>

Sure.
Having it in the curriculum (especially with only one class) doesn't
mean much. I'm currently teaching a group of students "Scheme in
LilyPond", and my worries about selling coals to Newcastle have proved
unfounded ;-)

However, that doesn't mean making code fragments available is completely
in vain.
There *are* people who know that Lisp can be used for making music,
there is OpenMusic, and it *can* be possible to raise interest by
increasing the amount of stuff that is around.
Some of my most interesting projects have been made possible because I
had some code online and someone chimed in by either using and
questioning it or actually developing it further.

Urs

> --
> Orm


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Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Orm Finnendahl]

Am Dienstag, den 12. Juli 2016 um 09:26:38 Uhr (+0200) schrieb Urs Liska:
> 
> You know that in Karlsruhe every student of music informatics and
> musicology has to take a class in common lisp (in their 3rd
> semester)?

In Essen its part of the curriculum as well, but I'm not aware of many
younger composers actually using it in earnest.

--
Orm

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Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Urs Liska]

Am 12. Juli 2016 09:20:32 MESZ, schrieb Orm Finnendahl 
:
>Hi Kieren,
>
>Am Montag, den 11. Juli 2016 um 13:55:48 Uhr (-0400) schrieb Kieren
>MacMillan:
>> 
>> 1. On the topic of algorithmic stuff, I sent him the link to
>> Abjad. If there’s a better starting place, or other links I should
>> forward to him, please let me know!
>
>Dated and by no means par to Trevor's approach, but probably worth
>mentioning (as of its lisp heritage):
>
>http://fomus.sourceforge.net/
>
>and
>
>https://common-lisp.net/project/fomus/
>
>He can also contact me. There is a lot of stuff written in common lisp
>for my own work on my hard drives. As it is very specific for my needs
>and in a language hardly anybody uses, I never bothered to make it
>available.

You know that in Karlsruhe every student of music informatics and musicology 
has to take a class in common lisp (in their 3rd semester)?

>
>--
>Orm
>--
>Prof. Orm Finnendahl
>Komposition
>Hochschule für Musik und Darstellende Kunst
>Eschersheimer Landstr. 29-39
>60322 Frankfurt am Main
>
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Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

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Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Orm Finnendahl]

Hi Kieren,

Am Montag, den 11. Juli 2016 um 13:55:48 Uhr (-0400) schrieb Kieren
MacMillan:
> 
> 1. On the topic of algorithmic stuff, I sent him the link to
> Abjad. If there’s a better starting place, or other links I should
> forward to him, please let me know!

Dated and by no means par to Trevor's approach, but probably worth
mentioning (as of its lisp heritage):

http://fomus.sourceforge.net/

and

https://common-lisp.net/project/fomus/

He can also contact me. There is a lot of stuff written in common lisp
for my own work on my hard drives. As it is very specific for my needs
and in a language hardly anybody uses, I never bothered to make it
available.

--
Orm
--
Prof. Orm Finnendahl
Komposition
Hochschule für Musik und Darstellende Kunst
Eschersheimer Landstr. 29-39
60322 Frankfurt am Main

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Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[David Bellows]

I guess should throw my own modest contribution into the hat. My
Platonic music engine (http://www.platonicmusicengine.com) is
algorithmically generated music created to simulate any musical idea.
It generates traditional scores using Lilypond and graphical scores
using pdfLaTeX. It is written entirely in Lua. You can read a good
summary at lilyblog:
http://lilypondblog.org/2015/04/using-lilypond-in-the-platonic-music-engine/

It's still very much in alpha but it shows some of the possibilities.
One big idea is that the scores cannot be tweaked at all so Lilypond
has to get it right the first time.

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:51 PM,   wrote:
> Am 2016-07-11 19:55, schrieb Kieren MacMillan:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> This past week, I was in Pittsburgh on music business (a long-term
>> commissioning project incorporating binaural recording technologies
>> and a bunch of other exciting stuff).
>>
>> While there, I established a very strong relationship with a composer,
>> sound designer, and electrical engineer who loves open source music
>> technologies. He was thrilled to hear about Lilypond's recent
>> improvements and successes: he only vaguely knew about Lilypond from
>> its very first days (having always been heavily involved with
>> MusiXTeX).
>
>
> An important point. I regularly encounter people who should actually be
> typical representatives of LilyPond's "target audience" but who have only
> some vage recollections from an earlier time when LilyPond wasn't as good as
> it is now and when there wasn't such a widespread ecosystem of tools and
> environments available.
>
>>
>> He is well-connected (IRCAM, UCSD, etc.etc.etc.) and quite brilliant.
>> He’s **extremely** interested in the possible hooks from Lilypond to
>> algorithmic music generation, and the interweaving of music with text
>> (e.g., LaTeX). I’m hoping to get him hooked on the ‘Pond, beyond the
>> high-energy sales pitch I gave him in person.
>
>
> Great! Just don't let the opportunity go by ...
>
>>
>> 1. On the topic of algorithmic stuff, I sent him the link to Abjad. If
>> there’s a better starting place, or other links I should forward to
>> him, please let me know!
>
>
> I think Abjad is probably the starting point per se.
>
> There may be some more blog posts of interest (please review before
> considering sharing them):
> -
> http://lilypondblog.org/2013/07/creating-anything-you-can-imagine-with-finale/
> plus
>  http://lilypondblog.org/2013/07/programmatically-generating-lilypond-input/
> -
> http://lilypondblog.org/2013/09/automatic-generation-of-scales-in-various-modes-for-all-21-pitches/
> -
> http://lilypondblog.org/2015/11/just-intonation-semantic-encoding-with-lilypond/
>
> Another topic might be OpenMusic (http://repmus.ircam.fr/openmusic/home). As
> far as I was told there already *is* some link to make it work with LilyPond
> to some extent. I was recently introduced to the people behind OpenMusic,
> and - apart from the notorious lack of time and money - there is significant
> mutual interest in making this integration closer. Presumably in the context
> of our longstanding wishlist item, a proper "contemporary music notation"
> library for LilyPond.
>
> Finally I'd like to mention nCoda (https://ncodamusic.org), a
> prototype-level new "notation program", or rather "music document management
> and editing system". One of the explicit use cases of this tool is
> (algorithmic) composition, as this is why one of the core members is
> actually working on it. Therefore Abjad integration is built right into its
> core. But it will surely take quite some time until this tool is really
> ready for practical use.
>
> I'm afraid what *I* have to contribute to this is all about great potentials
> but not really about state-of-the-art. Maybe "bleeding edge" but no really
> usable solutions. This goes equally for 1. and for 2.
>
>>
>> 2. For Lilypond+(La)TeX, I want to send him to examples of the
>> bleeding edge (or at least most stable state-of-the-art) work in that
>> direction. What are the first links I should send him?
>
>
> I think the blog post Jeffery mentioned is actually a good starting point
> (http://lilypondblog.org/2013/12/using-latex-for-a-musical-edition/).
> Of course in that context pointing to version control (especially with
> regard to mixing text and music) might be a good idea.
> -
> http://lilypondblog.org/2014/01/why-use-version-control-for-engraving-scores/
> - http://lilypondblog.org/2014/06/what-you-miss-with-version-control/
>
> lilyglyphs (insert LilyPond notation in continuous text) is of course a nice
> add-on when authoring text documents about music.
>
> musicexamples is a pretty half-baked package so far because I didn't come
> across a problem where I *needed* to continue development (which is why I
> haven't released it to CTAN yet). Out of my hat I recall a few goodies it
> has over a regular LaTeX approach:
> 1) Providing a separate group for creating lists of music 

Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Jeffery Shivers]

Hi Kieren,

He’s **extremely** interested in the possible hooks from Lilypond to
> algorithmic music generation, and the interweaving of music with text
> (e.g., LaTeX). I’m hoping to get him hooked on the ‘Pond, beyond the
> high-energy sales pitch I gave him in person.


This is great! Some people have already done great work in incorporating
LilyPond and LaTeX. On the topic of Abjad, there is coincidentally a 5-day
workshop on using it (led by the creators) that starts today at Stanford:

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/workshops

I've recently done a full musical score entirely in TeX without LilyPond or
any other language/interface (although, it is more of a non-traditional
"graphic" score that doesn't utilize western notation). So, with the right
project, that's certainly a possibility by itself. TeX is extremely
flexible/extendable due to all of the packages available, including
lilyglyphs:

https://www.ctan.org/pkg/lilyglyphs?lang=en

... and musicexamples:

https://github.com/uliska/musicexamples

... both written by Urs Liska (who will likely have more add to this
conversation). There are a range of examples of the LilyPond engraving
capabilities here:

http://lilypond.org/examples.html

And openlilylib in general:

https://github.com/openlilylib

... is a resource for lots of new LilyPond-specific tools, in addition to
the LilyPond Snippet Repository:

http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Search

On the note of using algorithmic composition directly in LilyPond source
code, I can't comment from direct experience. But if the composer is
fluent/comfortable in Scheme (or functional programming in general), I
believe that LilyPond would be a more than suitable arena for implementing
those techniques, or at least experimenting before "giving up*, or even
before moving on to more advanced workflows like Abjad which really do
require some time (and a lot of confidence in committing that time) to
understand.

HTH,
Jeffery

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Kieren MacMillan <
kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> This past week, I was in Pittsburgh on music business (a long-term
> commissioning project incorporating binaural recording technologies and a
> bunch of other exciting stuff).
>
> While there, I established a very strong relationship with a composer,
> sound designer, and electrical engineer who loves open source music
> technologies. He was thrilled to hear about Lilypond's recent improvements
> and successes: he only vaguely knew about Lilypond from its very first days
> (having always been heavily involved with MusiXTeX).
>
> He is well-connected (IRCAM, UCSD, etc.etc.etc.) and quite brilliant. He’s
> **extremely** interested in the possible hooks from Lilypond to algorithmic
> music generation, and the interweaving of music with text (e.g., LaTeX).
> I’m hoping to get him hooked on the ‘Pond, beyond the high-energy sales
> pitch I gave him in person.
>
> 1. On the topic of algorithmic stuff, I sent him the link to Abjad. If
> there’s a better starting place, or other links I should forward to him,
> please let me know!
>
> 2. For Lilypond+(La)TeX, I want to send him to examples of the bleeding
> edge (or at least most stable state-of-the-art) work in that direction.
> What are the first links I should send him?
>
> Thanks,
> Kieren.
> 
>
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
>
>
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Re: state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Simon Albrecht]

On 11.07.2016 19:55, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

2. For Lilypond+(La)TeX, I want to send him to examples of the bleeding edge 
(or at least most stable state-of-the-art) work in that direction. What are the 
first links I should send him?


Certainly this: 
 
It’s certainly some of the most advanced work done in that area, and 
maybe there has been more progress since. I’m sure Urs has something in 
the pipe there :-)


Best, Simon

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state-of-the-art for algorithmic hooks and Lilypond+(La)TeX

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hello all,

This past week, I was in Pittsburgh on music business (a long-term 
commissioning project incorporating binaural recording technologies and a bunch 
of other exciting stuff).

While there, I established a very strong relationship with a composer, sound 
designer, and electrical engineer who loves open source music technologies. He 
was thrilled to hear about Lilypond's recent improvements and successes: he 
only vaguely knew about Lilypond from its very first days (having always been 
heavily involved with MusiXTeX).

He is well-connected (IRCAM, UCSD, etc.etc.etc.) and quite brilliant. He’s 
**extremely** interested in the possible hooks from Lilypond to algorithmic 
music generation, and the interweaving of music with text (e.g., LaTeX). I’m 
hoping to get him hooked on the ‘Pond, beyond the high-energy sales pitch I 
gave him in person.

1. On the topic of algorithmic stuff, I sent him the link to Abjad. If there’s 
a better starting place, or other links I should forward to him, please let me 
know!

2. For Lilypond+(La)TeX, I want to send him to examples of the bleeding edge 
(or at least most stable state-of-the-art) work in that direction. What are the 
first links I should send him?

Thanks,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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