Re: tie direction !?

[Torsten Hämmerle]

David Kastrup wrote
> Can be a memory-order thing.  When two things compare equal, their final
> order of decisions can depend just on which choice happened to get a
> location lower in memory.  In that case, the results need not even be
> deterministic given identical scores on the same platform with the same
> program.

Possibly yes.  On the other hand, this never seem to happen if the exact
same situation is being moved away from Y-offset 0 (the middle line).

I think it'd be favourable in any case to have a well-defined tie direction
in these neutral cases, i.e. pointing away from the neutral stem direction. 
Tie.neutral-direction gives the impression to determine the tie direction in
neutral/undecided cases, but it obviously doesn't.

As Harm said, explicitly setting the tie direction is very unsatisfactory at
least if transposing instruments are concerned.

Isn't that a case for the issue tracker? "Unambiguously respect
Tie.neutral-direction"?

All the best,
Torsten




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Re: tie direction !?

[David Kastrup]

Torsten Hämmerle  writes:

> Thomas Morley-2 wrote
>> I already thought creating a function for setting tie-direction, _iff_
>> the notes are on the middle line, probably taking stem-direction into
>> account. It would give me more flexibility, though ofcourse the
>> considerations mentioned above are still valid.
>
> Actually, the C++ coding does take the stem directions of the tied notes
> into account, but in our cases, they point in opposite direction and so any
> tie direction will be equally good or bad.
>
>
>
> Thomas Morley-2 wrote
>> Obviously it has something to do with the notes being on the
>> middle-line, so I tried the some inconsistent behaviour with notes on
>> other lines in order to get more info/insight. Without success so far
>
> Yes, that's why I claimed this strange effect only happens for middle-line
> ties.
>
> The up/down decision seems to be fragile as hell.
>
> As it's a centre-line (i.e. Y-offset = #0) problem, this reminds me of
> numeric rounding errors (inaccuracies): sometimes, the result is < 0,
> sometimes it's > 0, but always very close to 0.

Can be a memory-order thing.  When two things compare equal, their final
order of decisions can depend just on which choice happened to get a
location lower in memory.  In that case, the results need not even be
deterministic given identical scores on the same platform with the same
program.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: tie direction !?

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Thomas Morley-2 wrote
> I already thought creating a function for setting tie-direction, _iff_
> the notes are on the middle line, probably taking stem-direction into
> account. It would give me more flexibility, though ofcourse the
> considerations mentioned above are still valid.

Actually, the C++ coding does take the stem directions of the tied notes
into account, but in our cases, they point in opposite direction and so any
tie direction will be equally good or bad.



Thomas Morley-2 wrote
> Obviously it has something to do with the notes being on the
> middle-line, so I tried the some inconsistent behaviour with notes on
> other lines in order to get more info/insight. Without success so far

Yes, that's why I claimed this strange effect only happens for middle-line
ties.

The up/down decision seems to be fragile as hell.

As it's a centre-line (i.e. Y-offset = #0) problem, this reminds me of
numeric rounding errors (inaccuracies): sometimes, the result is < 0,
sometimes it's > 0, but always very close to 0.



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Re: tie direction !?

[Thomas Morley]

2018-07-27 1:02 GMT+02:00 Torsten Hämmerle :
> Simon Albrecht-2 wrote
>> The most sensible solution to me seems to be for Tie to use the
>> neutral-direction property and heed it in such cases, overriding the
>> direction if it is set.
>
> Using Harm's example, setting Tie.neutral-direction to #DOWN will just flip
> everything around.
> Then, the first tie is up and the second tie is down.
>
> All this only happens for opposite stem directions and tied notes on the
> middle stave line, everything is quite unpredictable and the slightest
> change in spacing etc. may flip a tie to any direction.
>
> Robert's code will react very sensitive to changes like
>\override Tie.details.note-head-gap = …
> When just changing this from standard #0.2 to #0.20001, the first tie will
> change its direction.
>
> Perhaps some penalty calculations yield nearly identical results for
> different tie directions so that the slightest environmental change may
> result in a tie direction change.
>
> All the best,
> Torsten


I stumbled across it while transposing a flute-part for alto-flute.

While it's trivial to set tie-direction manually, I'd prefer not to do
so, because it may be wrong after some other transposing or in
polyphonic situations or using partombine and the like.
I already thought creating a function for setting tie-direction, _iff_
the notes are on the middle line, probably taking stem-direction into
account. It would give me more flexibility, though ofcourse the
considerations mentioned above are still valid.

Obviously it has something to do with the notes being on the
middle-line, so I tried the some inconsistent behaviour with notes on
other lines in order to get more info/insight. Without success so far


Most likely Torsten's guess is correct.
Thus I tried
\override Tie.details.horizontal-distance-penalty-factor = 50
which indeed gives consisten behaviout (if other details-properties
are unchanged), the tie doesn't look as nice as before, though.




Thanks,
  Harm

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Re: tie direction !?

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Simon Albrecht-2 wrote
> The most sensible solution to me seems to be for Tie to use the 
> neutral-direction property and heed it in such cases, overriding the 
> direction if it is set.

Using Harm's example, setting Tie.neutral-direction to #DOWN will just flip
everything around.
Then, the first tie is up and the second tie is down.

All this only happens for opposite stem directions and tied notes on the
middle stave line, everything is quite unpredictable and the slightest
change in spacing etc. may flip a tie to any direction.

Robert's code will react very sensitive to changes like
   \override Tie.details.note-head-gap = …
When just changing this from standard #0.2 to #0.20001, the first tie will
change its direction.

Perhaps some penalty calculations yield nearly identical results for
different tie directions so that the slightest environmental change may
result in a tie direction change.

All the best,
Torsten



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Re: tie direction !?

[Simon Albrecht]

The most sensible solution to me seems to be for Tie to use the 
neutral-direction property and heed it in such cases, overriding the 
direction if it is set.


Best, Simon


On 26.07.2018 13:34, Robert Schmaus wrote:

Might be the same thing as here:

http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Curious-thing-about-ties-td196616.html

On 26 Jul 2018, at 12:37, Thomas Morley > wrote:



Hi,

please consider the following example:

\version "2.19.82"

\relative c'' {
 f,1
 r4 b~ b8 a b4~
 b8 a b2.
 \repeat unfold 8 f8
}

The ties have different directions.
If you change the example a little bit you may (or may not) get equal
directions.

Where does it comes from?
Or wit different wording, what are the conditions for the tie's
direction applying here?

Thanks,
 Harm

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Re: tie direction !?

[Robert Schmaus]

Might be the same thing as here:

http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Curious-thing-about-ties-td196616.html

> On 26 Jul 2018, at 12:37, Thomas Morley  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> please consider the following example:
> 
> \version "2.19.82"
> 
> \relative c'' {
>  f,1
>  r4 b~ b8 a b4~
>  b8 a b2.
>  \repeat unfold 8 f8
> }
> 
> The ties have different directions.
> If you change the example a little bit you may (or may not) get equal
> directions.
> 
> Where does it comes from?
> Or wit different wording, what are the conditions for the tie's
> direction applying here?
> 
> Thanks,
>  Harm
> 
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tie direction !?

[Thomas Morley]

Hi,

please consider the following example:

\version "2.19.82"

\relative c'' {
  f,1
  r4 b~ b8 a b4~
  b8 a b2.
  \repeat unfold 8 f8
}

The ties have different directions.
If you change the example a little bit you may (or may not) get equal
directions.

Where does it comes from?
Or wit different wording, what are the conditions for the tie's
direction applying here?

Thanks,
  Harm

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Tie direction automatic control in a voice

[Andrew Bernard]

Greetings All,

 

I have a lot of two note chords that are tied over, and would like to have
the upper tie always go up and the lower tie down. This is in the context of
a given voice. I am aware that one can specify individual directions for
individual notes in a chord, but for this use case, is there any way one
could make a function of some sort to have lilypond always do the up and
down connection automatically, when commanded, as per the second tied pair
in the simple example? That would be a real time saver for me.

 

\version "2.19.53"

 

{

  \voiceOne

   ~ 

   

}

 

[Needless to say, it would be useful to be able to specify an up down
pattern for chords of three, four, or more notes as well.]

 

Andrew

 

 

 

 

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Re: Tie direction within a chord

[David Kastrup]

Christian  writes:

> I would like to adjust the tie direction within a chord.
> How can I do that, I have tried the following.
>
>   <\tieUp ais,~ \tieDown fis'~>2 2 |
>
> This doesn't work.

\relative c'' { 2 2 }

While you could work with

\single\tieUp ~

and similar in newer versions of 2.17, just using ^ and _ for individual
tie directions seems quite easier.


-- 
David Kastrup


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Tie direction within a chord

[Christian]

I would like to adjust the tie direction within a chord.
How can I do that, I have tried the following.

  <\tieUp ais,~ \tieDown fis'~>2 2 |

This doesn't work.


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Re: tie direction problems

[James E. Bailey]

Ah, I misunderstood. Yes, you want \tieDown. If you'd rather, you can  
redefine \voiceOne so that ties are always down, but in multi-voice  
music, the ties follow the direction of the stems. Incidentally,  
setting \tieDown does not affect the stems. So no, this is not a bug,  
this is a feature.


On 02.10.2009, at 06:43, Patrick McCarty wrote:


Hi Nick,

On 2009-10-02, Nick Didkovsky wrote:


I was using 2.11.37 when I reported this problem
I upgraded to  2.12.2 but the problem remains, unfortunately
I am reluctant to use tieUp tieDown because then I will need to
specify stem direction as well. These are things LilyPond has been
doing fine without my specifying and I'd like to keep it that way.
It makes better decisions about stem directions than I do. And it is
only this situation when there is more than one voice on the staff
where the problem arises.
Is this an acknowledged bug with a chance of a fix?


You are using more than one voice, so that is why the ties are up
instead of down.  The stem direction won't change if you use \tieUp or
\tieDown.

If you just want to override some of the ties, use

  c''4_~\noBeam

Have you read the Learning Manual?  I believe these issues are
thoroughly covered there.

-Patrick


James E. Bailey



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Re: tie direction problems

[Patrick McCarty]

Hi Nick,

On 2009-10-02, Nick Didkovsky wrote:
> 
> I was using 2.11.37 when I reported this problem
> I upgraded to  2.12.2 but the problem remains, unfortunately
> I am reluctant to use tieUp tieDown because then I will need to
> specify stem direction as well. These are things LilyPond has been
> doing fine without my specifying and I'd like to keep it that way.
> It makes better decisions about stem directions than I do. And it is
> only this situation when there is more than one voice on the staff
> where the problem arises.
> Is this an acknowledged bug with a chance of a fix?

You are using more than one voice, so that is why the ties are up
instead of down.  The stem direction won't change if you use \tieUp or
\tieDown.

If you just want to override some of the ties, use

  c''4_~\noBeam

Have you read the Learning Manual?  I believe these issues are
thoroughly covered there.

-Patrick


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Re: tie direction problems

[James E. Bailey]

That's odd. I assume I get what you want with my install of 2.12.2On 02.10.2009, at 06:11, Nick Didkovsky wrote:Thanks JamesI was using 2.11.37 when I reported this problemI upgraded to  2.12.2 but the problem remains, unfortunatelyI am reluctant to use tieUp tieDown because then I will need to specify stem direction as well. These are things LilyPond has been doing fine without my specifying and I'd like to keep it that way. It makes better decisions about stem directions than I do. And it is only this situation when there is more than one voice on the staff where the problem arises.Is this an acknowledged bug with a chance of a fix?BestNick DidkovskyJames E. Bailey wrote: On 29.09.2009, at 15:03, Nick Didkovsky wrote: HelloHere's one measure of music with two voices on the same staff. Top voice has some notes that are tied. Bottom voice is an invisible rest.The stems on the notes are all going up. This is good.The ties are upside down however (frowns instead of smiles). This is bad.What am I doing wrong? Using a long out-of-date version of LilyPondAlthough, you may want to have a look at the \tieUp and \tieDown commands.James E. Bailey  James E. Bailey ___
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Re: tie direction problems

[Nick Didkovsky]

Thanks James

I was using 2.11.37 when I reported this problem
I upgraded to  2.12.2 but the problem remains, unfortunately
I am reluctant to use tieUp tieDown because then I will need to specify 
stem direction as well. These are things LilyPond has been doing fine 
without my specifying and I'd like to keep it that way. It makes better 
decisions about stem directions than I do. And it is only this situation 
when there is more than one voice on the staff where the problem arises.

Is this an acknowledged bug with a chance of a fix?

Best
Nick Didkovsky

James E. Bailey wrote:


On 29.09.2009, at 15:03, Nick Didkovsky wrote:


Hello

Here's one measure of music with two voices on the same staff. Top 
voice has some notes that are tied. Bottom voice is an invisible rest.

The stems on the notes are all going up. This is good.
The ties are upside down however (frowns instead of smiles). This is bad.
What am I doing wrong?



Using a long out-of-date version of LilyPond

Although, you may want to have a look at the \tieUp and \tieDown commands.

James E. Bailey






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Re: tie direction problems

[James E. Bailey]

On 29.09.2009, at 15:03, Nick Didkovsky wrote:


Hello

Here's one measure of music with two voices on the same staff. Top  
voice has some notes that are tied. Bottom voice is an invisible rest.

The stems on the notes are all going up. This is good.
The ties are upside down however (frowns instead of smiles). This  
is bad.

What am I doing wrong?



Using a long out-of-date version of LilyPond

Although, you may want to have a look at the \tieUp and \tieDown  
commands.


James E. Bailey



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tie direction problems

[Nick Didkovsky]

Hello

Here's one measure of music with two voices on the same staff. Top voice 
has some notes that are tied. Bottom voice is an invisible rest.

The stems on the notes are all going up. This is good.
The ties are upside down however (frowns instead of smiles). This is bad.
What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
Nick Didkovsky

// STAFF CONTENTS
\version "2.10.0"
% Created by: Java Music Specification Language, BUILD 20090919
% Creation date: Tue Sep 29 08:40:07 EDT 2009
% JMSL to LilyPond converter by Nick Didkovsky, (c) 2006 Nick Didkovsky
% visit www.algomusic.com and www.lilypond.org

% Staff 1

"TieWrongDirStaffAA" = {
\override Score.RehearsalMark #'font-size = #-1
\override Score.VoltaBracket #'font-name = #"New Century Schoolbook"
\override Score.VoltaBracket #'font-shape = #'bold
\override Score.VoltaBracket #'font-size = #+1

% Measure 1
\override Score.MetronomeMark #'padding = #4.5
\tempo 4=60
\key c \major

\override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()

\time 4/4

\clef treble
<<  {

c''4
c''4~\noBeam
c''16\noBeam [
c''16
c''16
c''16~  ]
c''4\noBeam
}
\\
{
\blanknotes
r1  \unblanknotes

}
>>

}


// THE FILE THAT LOADS THE STAFF CONTENTS

\version "2.10.0"
% Created by: Java Music Specification Language, BUILD 20090919
% Creation date: Tue Sep 29 08:40:07 EDT 2009
% JMSL to LilyPond converter by Nick Didkovsky, (c) 2006 Nick Didkovsky
% visit www.algomusic.com and www.lilypond.org
blanknotes = { \override NoteHead  #'transparent = ##t
\override Stem  #'transparent = ##t
\override Rest  #'transparent = ##t }
unblanknotes = { \revert NoteHead #'transparent
\revert Stem #'transparent
\revert Rest #'transparent }
blankstems = { \override Stem  #'transparent = ##t }
unblankstems = { \revert Stem #'transparent }
\include "TieWrongDirStaffAA.ly"
\header {
   title = "Untitled-1"
   composer = "Nick"
   copyright = "(c) 2009, Nick"
   instrument = "ins-0"
   tagline = "Untitled-1 (ins-0)"
}
\paper {
   between-system-space = 1.5\cm
   between-system-padding = #1
   ragged-bottom=##f
   ragged-last-bottom=##f
   oddFooterMarkup = \markup {
   \column {
   \fill-line {
   %% Copyright header field only on first page.
   \on-the-fly #first-page \fromproperty #'header:copyright
   }
   \fill-line {
   %% tagline header field on all but first page.
   \on-the-fly #not-first-page \fromproperty #'header:tagline
   }
   }
   }
}
{
\override Score.TupletNumber #'X-extent = #'(0 . 0)
\removeWithTag #'score
<<
   \new Staff \TieWrongDirStaffAA
>>

}



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Re: Tie Direction

[Mats Bengtsson]

> Hi,
> 
> I may have asked this before but is there a way of controlling the 
> direction of a tie and the note that it is attached to?

If you use the search function on www.lilypond.org, I'm afraid
you'll get lost in the long list of links. To just set the
direction of ties, use the macro \tieUp, to set the direction
of both ties, stems, slurs and dots, use the macro \voiceOne.
These macros and many more are defined in the file ly/property.ly. 
Unfortunately, that's also almost the only documentation of them 
that you could find.

  /Mats



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Tie Direction

[Adam Tee]

Hi,

I may have asked this before but is there a way of controlling the 
direction of a tie and the note that it is attached to?


Thanks,

Adam
-- 
Adam Tee
Postgraduate Research Student
Dept of Electronic & Electrical Engineering and Dept of Music
University of Leeds
LS2 9JT
UK


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