Re: unusual Alto Clef
2008/10/15 Patrick Horgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I notice the cool alto clef doesn't have any space in front (to the left) like the other clefs. Is this normal for this clef, or does it need to be tweaked? It's just because I found it a bit weird, but you can easily add this space by commenting or deleting the -180 0 translate line in the postscript code (comments are done using the % character, like in ly code). Cheers, Valentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Jonathan Kulp wrote: Cool!! I've attached the infamous Ravel quartet snippet that prompted me to post the query about this clef in the first place. Your C clef looks nice in there, almost like the original. Of course in this passage there's a switch to treble clef, and when it returns to alto, the clef is a teency bit too big (the original is almost the same size vertically but less inky), but still this is much closer to the appearance of the original score than a standard alto clef. Thanks for creating that, Valentin! I'm adding it to my snippet definitions file. :) I notice the cool alto clef doesn't have any space in front (to the left) like the other clefs. Is this normal for this clef, or does it need to be tweaked? Patrick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
In the midst of the discussion about different styles of clefs I mentioned an English* style of bass clef. A clear image of such a clef can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oldbassclef.png It's called old bass clef there. -David *I called it English because I've only seen it in parts printed in the UK. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
2008/10/9 Valentin Villenave [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Werner: I don't know anything about metafont (how the hell do you write a metafont glyph? Do you write plain source code, or are there graphic editors somewhere?) but I have tried to draw a glyph in FontForge (see attached file, you may open it using FontForge). Don't know if this helps (I guess it does not, since I have no idea of these kinds of work), but anyway it was fun :-) Cheers, Valentin AltoClef.sfd Description: Binary data ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Oh, thanks for telling me that, Valentin. I wasn't sure whether the list would get the message or not, but I assumed I would get a note back if it failed, saying I needed to be a subscriber. I never got one so I thought it must have gone though. Now I know. Thanks for taking care of it for me :) Jon Valentin Villenave wrote: 2008/10/9 Jonathan Kulp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All the more reason to have it available to us! I've submitted the request to bug-lily as suggested so perhaps it will appear in a future release. Nothing yet on the bug list; may I remind you that as a non-subscriber the first line of any mail you send there has to start with a ? Or -- better yet -- you may want to subscribe to the bug list: http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-lilypond Anyway, your request has been added as http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 Cheers, Valentin -- Jonathan Kulp http://www.jonathankulp.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Valentin, Could you make a png file of your clef? When I tried to open it with FontForge it said the file was corrupted or not the right type. Weird. Jon Valentin Villenave wrote: 2008/10/9 Valentin Villenave [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Werner: I don't know anything about metafont (how the hell do you write a metafont glyph? Do you write plain source code, or are there graphic editors somewhere?) but I have tried to draw a glyph in FontForge (see attached file, you may open it using FontForge). Don't know if this helps (I guess it does not, since I have no idea of these kinds of work), but anyway it was fun :-) Cheers, Valentin -- Jonathan Kulp http://www.jonathankulp.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
2008/10/9 Jonathan Kulp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Valentin, Could you make a png file of your clef? When I tried to open it with FontForge it said the file was corrupted or not the right type. Weird. Yes. Same error. Weird :-) Jon Valentin Villenave wrote: 2008/10/9 Valentin Villenave [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Werner: I don't know anything about metafont (how the hell do you write a metafont glyph? Do you write plain source code, or are there graphic editors somewhere?) but I have tried to draw a glyph in FontForge (see attached file, you may open it using FontForge). Don't know if this helps (I guess it does not, since I have no idea of these kinds of work), but anyway it was fun :-) Cheers, Valentin -- Jonathan Kulp http://www.jonathankulp.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Dmytro O. Redchuk http://brownian.org.ua/ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Werner: I don't know anything about metafont (how the hell do you write a metafont glyph? Do you write plain source code, or are there graphic editors somewhere?) I write plain code. but I have tried to draw a glyph in FontForge (see attached file, you may open it using FontForge). Don't know if this helps (I guess it does not, since I have no idea of these kinds of work), but anyway it was fun :-) Well, your version differs heavily from what the scanned image shows. However, to create a good glyph shape, we probably need better scans of probably larger clefs. Anyone who could provide that, probably adding it to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 ? Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Could you make a png file of your clef? When I tried to open it with FontForge it said the file was corrupted or not the right type. Weird. Your FontForge version is probably too old. The SFD format has changed. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
2008/10/9 Werner LEMBERG [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Werner: I don't know anything about metafont (how the hell do you write a metafont glyph? Do you write plain source code, or are there graphic editors somewhere?) I write plain code. [OT] What about automatic tools such as mftrace? If you had a high-resolution scan, would you be able to generate code by vectorizing it? Cheers, Valentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
What about automatic tools such as mftrace? If you had a high-resolution scan, would you be able to generate code by vectorizing it? Well, of course, but the idea is not to `trace' such a glyph but to generate it, using mathematical rules, in particular to make it optically fit to different sizes, similar to the other feta glyphs. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
I've posted a slightly clearer copy of such a clef to issue 693. For what it's worth, my memory tells me that this style of C clef is to be found in French publications. I certainly remember seeing it in trombone parts of French pieces and this example comes from the Ravel Concerto for left hand (1st trombone part). David Jonathan Kulp wrote: I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. I got it originally from a .pdf file downloaded from the International Music Score Library Project. It'd be better to have an original paper score in hand for scanning at high res. If no one can come up with one in a day or two I'll talk to our orchestra conductor and see if he might have some examples in his library. Jon Werner LEMBERG wrote: Well, your version differs heavily from what the scanned image shows. However, to create a good glyph shape, we probably need better scans of probably larger clefs. Anyone who could provide that, probably adding it to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 ? Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. I got it originally from a .pdf file downloaded from the International Music Score Library Project. It'd be better to have an original paper score in hand for scanning at high res. If no one can come up with one in a day or two I'll talk to our orchestra conductor and see if he might have some examples in his library. Jon Werner LEMBERG wrote: Well, your version differs heavily from what the scanned image shows. However, to create a good glyph shape, we probably need better scans of probably larger clefs. Anyone who could provide that, probably adding it to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 ? Werner -- Jonathan Kulp http://www.jonathankulp.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
2008/10/9 Jonathan Kulp [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Valentin,
Could you make a png file of your clef? When I tried to open it with
FontForge it said the file was corrupted or not the right type. Weird.
Better yet: here's a ready-to-use snippet.
altoClef = \markup \postscript #
gsave newpath
0.004 0.004 scale
-180 0 translate
248 -306 moveto
248 -492 lineto
248 -496 245 -500 240 -500 curveto
218 -500 lineto
213 -500 210 -496 210 -492 curveto
210 492 lineto
210 496 213 500 218 500 curveto
240 500 lineto
245 500 248 496 248 492 curveto
248 292 lineto
274 270 348 242 370 242 curveto
404 242 462 228 462 453 curveto
462 560 476 670 576 670 curveto
628 670 671 626 671 571 curveto
671 516 628 471 576 471 curveto
526 471 530 496 520 503 curveto
513 502 510 478 510 437 curveto
510 340 lineto
510 192 490 94 477 79 curveto
442 39 332 70 248 70 curveto
248 -83 lineto
332 -83 442 -53 477 -93 curveto
490 -108 510 -206 510 -354 curveto
510 -451 lineto
510 -491 513 -516 520 -517 curveto
530 -509 526 -485 576 -485 curveto
628 -485 671 -530 671 -584 curveto
671 -640 628 -684 576 -684 curveto
476 -684 462 -574 462 -467 curveto
462 -242 404 -256 370 -256 curveto
348 -256 274 -283 248 -306 curveto
closepath
130 -500 moveto
8 -500 lineto
4 -500 0 -496 0 -492 curveto
0 492 lineto
0 496 4 500 8 500 curveto
130 500 lineto
134 500 138 496 138 492 curveto
138 -492 lineto
138 -496 134 -500 130 -500 curveto
closepath
fill grestore
\relative c'' {
\override Staff.Clef #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
\override Staff.Clef #'text = \altoClef
\clef alto
c
}
%%%
Cheers,
Valentin
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Re: unusual Alto Clef
From: David Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've posted a slightly clearer copy of such a clef to issue 693. For what it's worth, my memory tells me that this style of C clef is to be found in French publications. I certainly remember seeing it in trombone parts of French pieces and this example comes from the Ravel Concerto for left hand (1st trombone part). David Jonathan Kulp wrote: I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. I got it originally from a .pdf file downloaded from the International Music Score Library Project. It'd be better to have an original paper score in hand for scanning at high res. If no one can come up with one in a day or two I'll talk to our orchestra conductor and see if he might have some examples in his library. Jon Werner LEMBERG wrote: Well, your version differs heavily from what the scanned image shows. However, to create a good glyph shape, we probably need better scans of probably larger clefs. Anyone who could provide that, probably adding it to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 i've added a couple more -- as a bassoonist, i see this clef quite a bit in french repertoire. Leduc no longer uses it, though, favouring the modern style currently implemented in lilypond. cheers! -- .pltk. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Elision mark glyph (was: unusual Alto Clef)
On 09.10.2008 (16:51), Werner LEMBERG wrote: Well, of course, but the idea is not to `trace' such a glyph but to generate it, using mathematical rules, in particular to make it optically fit to different sizes, similar to the other feta glyphs. While we're on this subject: there's another quite important (at least in my line of work) glyph missing, and that's a better mark for lyric elisions. At present, it's a slur SPANNING the last letter of one word and the first of the next, but ideally it should be a small semi-circle JOINING the words. As glyphs go, this is probably the easiest there is, since there should be no decorations or serifs or anything, just the lower half of a circle. I can write THAT in metafont, but I have no idea how to incorporate it in the macro system that the feta font apparently needs to comply with. I discussed this with Han-Wen, and he referred me to you, for pointers on how to use the macros. How about it...? Eyolf -- All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
I suppose this thread brings up the issue of styles: since the mentioned clef is not really a new SIGN just a different GLYPH, are there other such signs that we want? What about the Fake book style (a more hand-written'ish style)? Or, perhaps more pertinent, since it's already half there: a complete set of glyphs for the ancient styles? I could also imagine(/desire) a set of manuscript-like glyphs for mensural music, and perhaps an even more 16th/17th century alternative to petrucci. Im not saying either that this should all be made, or that if one addition is kept out so should all others -- rather, I'm asking if there are more glyphs that should be considered, and (following up on my previous post) what are the requirements and how does one make them. Eyolf On 09.10.2008 (15:54), David Bobroff wrote: I've posted a slightly clearer copy of such a clef to issue 693. For what it's worth, my memory tells me that this style of C clef is to be found in French publications. I certainly remember seeing it in trombone parts of French pieces and this example comes from the Ravel Concerto for left hand (1st trombone part). David Jonathan Kulp wrote: I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. I got it originally from a .pdf file downloaded from the International Music Score Library Project. It'd be better to have an original paper score in hand for scanning at high res. If no one can come up with one in a day or two I'll talk to our orchestra conductor and see if he might have some examples in his library. Jon Werner LEMBERG wrote: Well, your version differs heavily from what the scanned image shows. However, to create a good glyph shape, we probably need better scans of probably larger clefs. Anyone who could provide that, probably adding it to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 ? Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Chaos is King and Magic is loose in the world. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
I wondered the same thing. There is yet another style of C clef. I've seen this other style in French music. It is a more boxy style that is somewhere in-between the modern 'B' type C clef and the French style 'K' type. There is also another type of bass clef that I think of as English because it shows up in British works (Elgar for example). It spirals in the opposite direction of the normal bass clef that is used by LilyPond and it has more turns. As for the hand-written look; this has been discussed in the past and, if I recall correctly, it was deemed inconsistent with the goals of LilyPond (to look like engraved music). As for these different styles of glyphs; I think it would be cool to have them, but I don't need them. I suppose it is a matter of someone willing to either write the code for the alternate glyph(s) or pay someone to write the code. -David Eyolf Østrem wrote: I suppose this thread brings up the issue of styles: since the mentioned clef is not really a new SIGN just a different GLYPH, are there other such signs that we want? What about the Fake book style (a more hand-written'ish style)? Or, perhaps more pertinent, since it's already half there: a complete set of glyphs for the ancient styles? I could also imagine(/desire) a set of manuscript-like glyphs for mensural music, and perhaps an even more 16th/17th century alternative to petrucci. Im not saying either that this should all be made, or that if one addition is kept out so should all others -- rather, I'm asking if there are more glyphs that should be considered, and (following up on my previous post) what are the requirements and how does one make them. Eyolf On 09.10.2008 (15:54), David Bobroff wrote: I've posted a slightly clearer copy of such a clef to issue 693. For what it's worth, my memory tells me that this style of C clef is to be found in French publications. I certainly remember seeing it in trombone parts of French pieces and this example comes from the Ravel Concerto for left hand (1st trombone part). David Jonathan Kulp wrote: I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. I got it originally from a .pdf file downloaded from the International Music Score Library Project. It'd be better to have an original paper score in hand for scanning at high res. If no one can come up with one in a day or two I'll talk to our orchestra conductor and see if he might have some examples in his library. Jon Werner LEMBERG wrote: Well, your version differs heavily from what the scanned image shows. However, to create a good glyph shape, we probably need better scans of probably larger clefs. Anyone who could provide that, probably adding it to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=693 ? Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. [...] BTW, looking into a impressionistic French full score, I can see another variant of the alto clef, which looks approximately like this: || | ||__| ||__| ||__ ||__| || | || | Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
That's the other French C clef variety I was talking about. I'll see if I can get a fairly clean one to scan. David Werner LEMBERG wrote: I can't seem to find a better image of this clef in the materials I have on hand or on an internet search. [...] BTW, looking into a impressionistic French full score, I can see another variant of the alto clef, which looks approximately like this: || | ||__| ||__| ||__ ||__| || | || | Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
On 09.10.2008 (18:07), David Bobroff wrote: I wondered the same thing. There is yet another style of C clef. I've seen this other style in French music. It is a more boxy style that is somewhere in-between the modern 'B' type C clef and the French style 'K' type. There is also another type of bass clef that I think of as English because it shows up in British works (Elgar for example). It spirals in the opposite direction of the normal bass clef that is used by LilyPond and it has more turns. Now that you mention it, isn't there also a G_8 type of clef with arms, almost like the C clef here? As for the hand-written look; this has been discussed in the past and, if I recall correctly, it was deemed inconsistent with the goals of LilyPond (to look like engraved music). So the hufnagel style should be eliminated, then... :) As for these different styles of glyphs; I think it would be cool to have them, but I don't need them. I suppose it is a matter of someone willing to either write the code for the alternate glyph(s) or pay someone to write the code. I'm thinking more or less the same -- with the addition that I'd gladly make a set of glyphs, if only I knew how... Eyolf -- (null cookie; hope that's ok) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
I've posted a slightly clearer copy of such a clef to issue 693. For what it's worth, my memory tells me that this style of C clef is to be found in French publications. I certainly remember seeing it in trombone parts of French pieces and this example comes from the Ravel Concerto for left hand (1st trombone part). Thanks. No the shape is rather clear. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I wondered the same thing. There is yet another style of C clef. I've seen this other style in French music. It is a more boxy style that is somewhere in-between the modern 'B' type C clef and the French style 'K' type. There is also another type of bass clef that I think of as English because it shows up in British works (Elgar for example). It spirals in the opposite direction of the normal bass clef that is used by LilyPond and it has more turns. As for the hand-written look; this has been discussed in the past and, if I recall correctly, it was deemed inconsistent with the goals of LilyPond (to look like engraved music). Much as I hate it, a lot of forties music I come across has that hand-written look, though I strongly suspect it was engraved ... So looking both hand-written and engraved at the same time probably isn't incompatible :-) At the end of the day, it's just another font, isn't it? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Eyolf Østrem wrote: I suppose this thread brings up the issue of styles: since the mentioned clef is not really a new SIGN just a different GLYPH, are there other such signs that we want? The one I stumbled across some while ago is an alternate D'al Segno glyph, depicted here: http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=659 (It is marked as Enhancement, which probably fits better than Defect, right?) This one has the benefit that it's written much clef-like in the staff and thus spares vertical space; on the other hand, it will probably require some more work than just drawing a glyph. I don't think such a positioning is currently supported by any (Rehearsal_?)mark_engraver... ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
A high-resolution version of a similar clef is here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notenschl%C3%BCssel#C-Schl.C3.BCssel However, the font designer does not seem to have invested very much time in it's design, and the engraver used is not mentioned. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
A high-resolution version of a similar clef is here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notenschl%C3%BCssel#C-Schl.C3.BCssel However, the font designer does not seem to have invested very much time in it's design, and the engraver used is not mentioned. I've *never* seen this design. Maybe it's indeed a very old form on which the French variant is based on. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
When I was working on the ill-fated Ravel String Quartet passage as an unfretted strings headword, I noticed that the original score had a very cool-looking alto clef. I know Lilypond has tons of odd-looking objects for early music, but I couldn't find a replica of this clef. Does a clef like the one in the attached png image exist in Lilypond? No. Please make a report to bug-lilypond so that it gets added to the wishlist. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Werner LEMBERG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes When I was working on the ill-fated Ravel String Quartet passage as an unfretted strings headword, I noticed that the original score had a very cool-looking alto clef. I know Lilypond has tons of odd-looking objects for early music, but I couldn't find a replica of this clef. Does a clef like the one in the attached png image exist in Lilypond? No. Please make a report to bug-lilypond so that it gets added to the wishlist. I think it's quite a common clef, actually. I come across a moderate amount of alto clef stuff (naturally, seeing as I'm a trombonist :-) and I've met exactly this clef (up a third, of course) on many occasions. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: unusual Alto Clef
Anthony W. Youngman wrote: No. Please make a report to bug-lilypond so that it gets added to the wishlist. I think it's quite a common clef, actually. I come across a moderate amount of alto clef stuff (naturally, seeing as I'm a trombonist :-) and I've met exactly this clef (up a third, of course) on many occasions. Cheers, Wol All the more reason to have it available to us! I've submitted the request to bug-lily as suggested so perhaps it will appear in a future release. Jon -- Jonathan Kulp http://www.jonathankulp.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
