Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 02:40:11AM +0100, Patrick Shirkey wrote: Stability of a functioning build environment does have it's merits. Sure. But I don't see it happen - ever. Because it essentially means to stop innovation. Building 'the perfect world' once and for all has been a dream during all of human history and has always failed. Some considerations: * Why is the dream of having a stable and universally available browser/JS environment any more realistic than the failed Java one ? What makes you (I don't mean PS personally) so sure it won't fail in the same way ? * As long as the economic system is based on competition people will try and get an advantage by being different and using proprietary extensions. This game is not going to be played just by competing on manufacturing costs of pods and pads. 'Collaborative innovation' is IMHO just another dream. * The web has evolved into a giant advertising machine and, as we know it, depends for its existence on the money made in this way. The means of delivery of these ads and for obtaining the required information for it to be targeted, is the browser. This makes the browser, and any services it may provide to act as an application environment, almost by definition something that will always be designed to control and monitor the user, in other words, something that basically works against the user's interests. I wouldn't call that the ideal application environment. * If these sorts of dreams come true, or if we really believe in them, there is no point in developing Linux any more. Just forget about it, buy the latest toys, and be happy. * Given the previous, maybe we should start a new mailing list, 'browser-audio-dev' or something similar. The subject is OT on this one. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
David, With the greatest respect to you, and I have a lot of sympathy with your ideas of GUI's using browser / JS technology, your comments on Java are bordering on FUD. I also don't understand the general anti-Java diatribe - it's a library, and it has its uses - why treat it as somehow different to any other library. It's still the best performing VM out there. Once JavaScript allows me to write a single JIT'ed executable that runs cross-platform; links to JACK on Linux, Windows and Mac; allows sub-5ms latency; and lets me drop live-coded fragments into the audio graph - then it gets interesting, but until then JS is still playing catchup! :-) On 21 November 2011 01:15, David Robillard d...@drobilla.net wrote: * Most Windows computers do not have Java. Source??? Last stats I saw showed Java installs not far behind Flash. And if you take the link your own VM option (which is similar to the suggestion re. webkit) it's irrelevant anyway. * Java is officially deprecated on Mac OS X. hmm .. Java on Mac is actually looking rosier than it has in a long time, now that development is taking place officially as part of OpenJDK. * Java will never, ever be available by default on any Microsoft platform That depends - lots of manufacturers install it by default. * Java is not included in the default installation of the overwhelming majority of free software operating systems Good! Too many distros install far too much by default. It's a library, it's a dependency, and it's there if it's needed. * Java requires software installation of some variety (unless you're seriously going to suggest using Java applets in 2011 with a straight face...) Applets? God, no! :-) I've no problem with installation though. As I said before, I don't necessarily see web-apps as the ultimate way forward - I personally think the app-store model will hold out because a) app-stores allow certain companies to keep their walled gardens, and b) writing for the browser is always going to be writing to the lowest common denominator. * Java recently has acquired a lot of legal questions making it not exactly the wisest investment for new technology. Nothing that affects OpenJDK though. * There are many cutting edge modern browser implementations, and activity here is moving at an astonishing pace. Java is a dinosaur. A dinosaur that the others are still trying to catch up with, mind you! Regardless, if I may take the liberty of speaking for this community, making people use Java for something is a sure-fire way of ensuring they don't use it. And I'll take the liberty of saying I think that's a daft attitude to have! :-) If the application performs a function I need, then I'll consider using it, regardless of what technology underlies it. Best wishes, Neil -- Neil C Smith Artist : Technologist : Adviser http://neilcsmith.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 10:26 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 02:40:11AM +0100, Patrick Shirkey wrote: Stability of a functioning build environment does have it's merits. Sure. But I don't see it happen - ever. Because it essentially means to stop innovation. Building 'the perfect world' once and for all has been a dream during all of human history and has always failed. Some considerations: * Why is the dream of having a stable and universally available browser/JS environment any more realistic than the failed Java one ? What makes you (I don't mean PS personally) so sure it won't fail in the same way ? Naturally it's not perfect, but the billions of web pages out there that already exist, and continually multiply, forces them to be somewhat stable. It's certainly not the case that a well written standards conformant page is going to not work in a browser in 5 years. One things for sure, it's more stable than the next best thing. The numbers absolutely dwarf any other platform by several orders of magnitude. The dream of having a stable build environment is realistic because you don't need a stable build environment at all :) * As long as the economic system is based on competition people will try and get an advantage by being different and using proprietary extensions. This game is not going to be played just by competing on manufacturing costs of pods and pads. 'Collaborative innovation' is IMHO just another dream. * The web has evolved into a giant advertising machine and, as we know it, depends for its existence on the money made in this way. The means of delivery of these ads and for obtaining the required information for it to be targeted, is the browser. This makes the browser, and any services it may provide to act as an application environment, almost by definition something that will always be designed to control and monitor the user, in other words, something that basically works against the user's interests. I wouldn't call that the ideal application environment. None of this hand-waving nonsense applies to what you personally do as a developer. The idea that you would be forced to somehow use proprietary extensions from the evil capitalists to force marketing down people's throats when using the browser as a platform and not even involving servers at all (let along other people's) is absurd. * If these sorts of dreams come true, or if we really believe in them, there is no point in developing Linux any more. Just forget about it, buy the latest toys, and be happy. Non sequitur. Anyway, as you said above, building the perfect world is impossible, right? This applies to Linux too. Should we all just give up and go home, then? * Given the previous, maybe we should start a new mailing list, 'browser-audio-dev' or something similar. The subject is OT on this one. A discussion about technologies to use for writing audio UIs is obviously not OT, particularly when tablet UIs are a hot topic in music tech these days, and rightly so. Deranged paranoid rants about capitalism or whatever are pretty OT, though... -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 10:36 +, Neil C Smith wrote: David, With the greatest respect to you, and I have a lot of sympathy with your ideas of GUI's using browser / JS technology, your comments on Java are bordering on FUD. I also don't understand the general anti-Java diatribe - it's a library, and it has its uses - why treat it as somehow different to any other library. It's still the best performing VM out there. Once JavaScript allows me to write a single JIT'ed executable that runs cross-platform; links to JACK on Linux, Windows and Mac; allows sub-5ms latency; and lets me drop live-coded fragments into the audio graph - then it gets interesting, but until then JS is still playing catchup! :-) Once Java actually makes it possible to write hard realtime safe code, then maybe I'll actually consider it an appropriate option for audio engines. Notice how every single popular audio application, free and mainstream, is conspicuously *not* written in Java? There's a reason for that. Even games aren't, and they don't have the strict hard-realtime requirements we do. There's a reason for that too. You can call it FUD or general anti-Java diatribe or whatever if you like, but I have better things to do than argue against reality. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
I'm no gamer but even I know games can be have been written in java. Minecraft springs to mind. A very interesting 3d block game. James Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange -Original Message- From: David Robillard d...@drobilla.net Sender: linux-audio-dev-boun...@lists.linuxaudio.org Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 13:40:36 To: Neil C Smithn...@neilcsmith.net Cc: linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 10:36 +, Neil C Smith wrote: David, With the greatest respect to you, and I have a lot of sympathy with your ideas of GUI's using browser / JS technology, your comments on Java are bordering on FUD. I also don't understand the general anti-Java diatribe - it's a library, and it has its uses - why treat it as somehow different to any other library. It's still the best performing VM out there. Once JavaScript allows me to write a single JIT'ed executable that runs cross-platform; links to JACK on Linux, Windows and Mac; allows sub-5ms latency; and lets me drop live-coded fragments into the audio graph - then it gets interesting, but until then JS is still playing catchup! :-) Once Java actually makes it possible to write hard realtime safe code, then maybe I'll actually consider it an appropriate option for audio engines. Notice how every single popular audio application, free and mainstream, is conspicuously *not* written in Java? There's a reason for that. Even games aren't, and they don't have the strict hard-realtime requirements we do. There's a reason for that too. You can call it FUD or general anti-Java diatribe or whatever if you like, but I have better things to do than argue against reality. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 18:59 +, ja...@jwm-art.net wrote: I'm no gamer but even I know games can be have been written in java. Minecraft springs to mind. A very interesting 3d block game. The one famous for having almost artistically primitive graphics? Funny, that :) Don't get me wrong, I would *love* for there to be a safe[1], portable, well-designed, widely-deployed language which were suitable for such things, but unfortunately we're not there yet. or: nobody ever got fired for going with C on Unix :) or: I don't need a virtual machine, I have a real one, thanks -dr [1] Note Java is *not* a safe language. In a safe language it is e.g. *impossible* to crash because of a null pointer dereference. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
From: d...@drobilla.net On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 18:59 +, ja...@jwm-art.net wrote: I'm no gamer but even I know games can be have been written in java. Minecraft springs to mind. A very interesting 3d block game. The one famous for having almost artistically primitive graphics? Yes, and those sample accurate synchronised loops.And that realtime UI response: build something now and know that even dalvik will have responded to it by nightfall. I think somebody already suggested this thread be moved to another list. There is no language nor transport that suits all solutions, expecting Java and a Browser to be an ultimate panacea is being hopeful at best. Regards, nick. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 20:35 +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: From: d...@drobilla.net On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 18:59 +, ja...@jwm-art.net wrote: I'm no gamer but even I know games can be have been written in java. Minecraft springs to mind. A very interesting 3d block game. The one famous for having almost artistically primitive graphics? Yes, and those sample accurate synchronised loops. And that realtime UI response: build something now and know that even dalvik will have responded to it by nightfall. That kind of realtime (i.e. fast enough) is not the same kind of synchronous hard(ish) realtime we need in performance and production software. I think somebody already suggested this thread be moved to another list. There is no language nor transport that suits all solutions, expecting Java and a Browser to be an ultimate panacea is being hopeful at best. Indeed. Writing DSP in either is unwise, which is why virtually nobody does it. As for UIs, there is precisely one platform available by default on almost all devices: the browser. Period. How much a bunch of Unix curmudgeons or Java fans dislike that fact doesn't change it, any more than me disliking blue changes the colour of the sky. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
Subject: RE: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net As for UIs, there is precisely one platform available by default on almost all devices: the browser. Period. How much a bunch of Unix curmudgeons or Java fans dislike that fact doesn't change it, any more than me disliking blue changes the colour of the sky. I think I missed the point so this response might also miss the mark. This has nothing to do with blue skies. Green grass is also everywhere but not being a cow means I will probably get serious gut ache if I eat it. Liking/disliking Java or browsers does not really bear on their applicability to any given problem. Does one size now fit simply because everybody has some kind of browser? Availability has nothing to do with applicability to a solution. Plus, the same UI works on any PC, iOS, blackberry, etc. That is also a bit of a longshot. Web content is as volatile as any programing language, now its java applets, javascript, or html4, or html5, or flash. Hoping that it works in your browser is just pushing a lot of effort back onto the developer. This mish-mash of languages just about seems to work for the web because the websites want to get exposure to everybody so it is totally in their interest to work in all the different browser configurations (including text based ones for example). It might not work so well for applications that are not after universal exposure or that want to be used for what they are - applications and not web pages. What I am trying to say is that just because every system has a hammer does not mean you have to support nails. Screws will still always have a use but people may just have to get a driver from somewhere to use them. Nick. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 10:14:46PM +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: What I am trying to say is that just because every system has a hammer does not mean you have to support nails. Screws will still always have a use but people may just have to get a driver from somewhere to use them. :-) :-) Anyway, hammers are old technology. Today you're supposed to use a nail gun, which requires special nails that cost at least ten times the price of normal ones :-) And are obsolete when a new generation of nail guns hits the streets. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
Hey guys! I have worked several years as a web developer and continue to create personal projects actively. What can I say - the web obviously has lots to offer. However, the client-side has more promises than actual accomplishments, especially when it comes to cross-browser things. Want it or not, even jQuery has problems, especially on (you guessed it) IE. The amount of hacks one needs to put it to make even normal html look the same in FF and IE is enormous. Experienced html guys might not notice how much hacks they automatically put into the code. Not to mention the memory problem. Browsers simply cannot handle as much memory as a desktop app can and you never know if settings of the visitor of your web app will allow him to not have his browser crash. As for graphics, each solution available today has loads of issues and nothing I've seen is satisfactory. Google stuff is interesting, but how lasting it will be - nobody knows. I would agree that the web has potential. I would agree that Java failed as a dream of an ultimate platform for all. But I would not agree that the web is there already today, nor that it is close. In terms of actual interaction it is very, very far away from what even a Java tool like Processing can offer, not to mention all of Java. -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/ ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On 11/21/2011 09:14 PM, Nick Copeland wrote: ... What I am trying to say is that just because every system has a hammer does not mean you have to support nails. Screws will still always have a use but people may just have to get a driver from somewhere to use them. +1 for best maslow's corollary :) -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Tue, 2011-11-22 at 00:41 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote: Hey guys! I have worked several years as a web developer and continue to create personal projects actively. What can I say - the web obviously has lots to offer. However, the client-side has more promises than actual accomplishments, especially when it comes to cross-browser things. Want it or not, even jQuery has problems, especially on (you guessed it) IE. The amount of hacks one needs to put it to make even normal html look the same in FF and IE is enormous. Experienced html guys might not notice how much hacks they automatically put into the code. If you choose to care about IE, life is indeed going to be miserable. I certainly don't ;) Not to mention the memory problem. Browsers simply cannot handle as much memory as a desktop app can and you never know if settings of the visitor of your web app will allow him to not have his browser crash. As for graphics, each solution available today has loads of issues and nothing I've seen is satisfactory. Google stuff is interesting, but how lasting it will be - nobody knows. I would agree that the web has potential. I would agree that Java failed as a dream of an ultimate platform for all. But I would not agree that the web is there already today, nor that it is close. In terms of actual interaction it is very, very far away from what even a Java tool like Processing can offer, not to mention all of Java. There seems to be the impression that I, or anyone, is arguing that absolutely every UI ever is best implemented in the browser. Of course, not, that's silly. But most audio control UIs are quite simple. All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward and perfectly appropriate. Transport controls, faders, knobs, XY pads, step sequencing, toggles, all that kind of stuff. Having remote controls and plugin UIs and such in the browser would be awesome, and it's not anywhere near the realm of things too large to be feasible, or too complicated to be portable (even to that atrocity you mentioned). If you need very high performance realtime visualization or whatever, sure, dont use the browser. Duh. Put differently: nobody is going to be rewriting the main Ardour UI in Javascript any time soon - but it would make a great control surface. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward Ah, is that all we need? I never realised it was so simple. Can I have them in some dull, boring grey colour with sad square boxes? You know, something that really inspires and that will convince every iPad user that their ubercool GUI are a total waste of time. Can you do that for me? That would be a killer! Regards, cnik ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:42:31PM +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward Ah, is that all we need? I never realised it was so simple. Can I have them in some dull, boring grey colour with sad square boxes? You know, something that really inspires and that will convince every iPad user that their ubercool GUI are a total waste of time. Can you do that for me? That would be a killer! Even almost every GUI toolkit sliders fails when used for anything serious in audio. Try tuning your oscillators in e.g. AMS when the auto-resizing frequency slider happens to have 27.142857 steps per octave. -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 23:42 +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward Ah, is that all we need? I never realised it was so simple. Can I have them in some dull, boring grey colour with sad square boxes? You know, something that really inspires and that will convince every iPad user that their ubercool GUI are a total waste of time. Can you do that for me? That would be a killer! ... actually, you'll notice most (native) apps in this domain *do* use very basic renderings for their widgets, even though they are implemented with the native toolkits, because that is what makes sense on a touch screen and is best for usability. http://www.hitsquad.com/files/TouchOSC-320x480-75.jpg Call me crazy, but I'll take clarity and usability over blind emulation and stupid little pixmaps of physical buttons any day. -dr P.S. Tell us some more about good UI, nickycopeland at *hotmail* (LOL) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 22:57 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:42:31PM +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward Ah, is that all we need? I never realised it was so simple. Can I have them in some dull, boring grey colour with sad square boxes? You know, something that really inspires and that will convince every iPad user that their ubercool GUI are a total waste of time. Can you do that for me? That would be a killer! Even almost every GUI toolkit sliders fails when used for anything serious in audio. Try tuning your oscillators in e.g. AMS when the auto-resizing frequency slider happens to have 27.142857 steps per octave. For stuff like this you need a way to enter precise values with a corresponding text box anyway. Though the old fan slider idea was a pretty good one... -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:32:51 -0500 David Robillard d...@drobilla.net wrote: Call me crazy, but I'll take clarity and usability over blind emulation and stupid little pixmaps of physical buttons any day. See, I find stupid little grey boxes a lot less clear and usable than pixmap controls. Using the native toolkit widgets just looks shite. Audio apps that use them are totally unusable. I don't want to sit staring at a spreadsheet when I'm trying to create music. -- Gordon JC Pearce MM0YEQ gordon...@gjcp.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Tue, 2011-11-22 at 00:41 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote: Hey guys! I have worked several years as a web developer and continue to create personal projects actively. What can I say - the web obviously has lots to offer. However, the client-side has more promises than actual accomplishments, especially when it comes to cross-browser things. Want it or not, even jQuery has problems, especially on (you guessed it) IE. The amount of hacks one needs to put it to make even normal html look the same in FF and IE is enormous. Experienced html guys might not notice how much hacks they automatically put into the code. If you choose to care about IE, life is indeed going to be miserable. I certainly don't ;) Not to mention the memory problem. Browsers simply cannot handle as much memory as a desktop app can and you never know if settings of the visitor of your web app will allow him to not have his browser crash. As for graphics, each solution available today has loads of issues and nothing I've seen is satisfactory. Google stuff is interesting, but how lasting it will be - nobody knows. I would agree that the web has potential. I would agree that Java failed as a dream of an ultimate platform for all. But I would not agree that the web is there already today, nor that it is close. In terms of actual interaction it is very, very far away from what even a Java tool like Processing can offer, not to mention all of Java. There seems to be the impression that I, or anyone, is arguing that absolutely every UI ever is best implemented in the browser. Of course, not, that's silly. But most audio control UIs are quite simple. All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward and perfectly appropriate. Transport controls, faders, knobs, XY pads, step sequencing, toggles, all that kind of stuff. Having remote controls and plugin UIs and such in the browser would be awesome, and it's not anywhere near the realm of things too large to be feasible, or too complicated to be portable (even to that atrocity you mentioned). Does html5 support JACK yet? That will be nice. If you need very high performance realtime visualization or whatever, sure, dont use the browser. Duh. With html5 support for opengl this is actually decent on new browsers. Put differently: nobody is going to be rewriting the main Ardour UI in Javascript any time soon - but it would make a great control surface. -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:33:38 -0500 David Robillard d...@drobilla.net wrote: On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 22:57 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:42:31PM +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward Ah, is that all we need? I never realised it was so simple. Can I have them in some dull, boring grey colour with sad square boxes? You know, something that really inspires and that will convince every iPad user that their ubercool GUI are a total waste of time. Can you do that for me? That would be a killer! Even almost every GUI toolkit sliders fails when used for anything serious in audio. Try tuning your oscillators in e.g. AMS when the auto-resizing frequency slider happens to have 27.142857 steps per octave. For stuff like this you need a way to enter precise values with a corresponding text box anyway. Though the old fan slider idea was a pretty good one... Earlier this year I tried updating the PHAT toolkit to use the Cairo backend for rendering (because the drawing code used by PHAT to render the fans is deprecated). The problem I found was that in order to get Cairo to draw the phans on the desktop (without obliterating the desktop) desktop compositing was required. I went round in circles looking at the documentation trying to find a way to get it working without compositing enabled (and without using deprecated code) but by the time I got to looking in the GTK source itself I decided to make the fans optional while additionally allowing shift to be used in combination without dragging the slider for greater precision (and ctrl for even more). I called it 'phin' and it can be found in the petri-foo source if you want to look. James. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 23:59 +, James Morris wrote: On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:33:38 -0500 David Robillard d...@drobilla.net wrote: On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 22:57 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:42:31PM +0100, Nick Copeland wrote: Subject: Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs From: d...@drobilla.net All we need is a couple of sliders and knobs and such. It's quite straight forward Ah, is that all we need? I never realised it was so simple. Can I have them in some dull, boring grey colour with sad square boxes? You know, something that really inspires and that will convince every iPad user that their ubercool GUI are a total waste of time. Can you do that for me? That would be a killer! Even almost every GUI toolkit sliders fails when used for anything serious in audio. Try tuning your oscillators in e.g. AMS when the auto-resizing frequency slider happens to have 27.142857 steps per octave. For stuff like this you need a way to enter precise values with a corresponding text box anyway. Though the old fan slider idea was a pretty good one... Earlier this year I tried updating the PHAT toolkit to use the Cairo backend for rendering (because the drawing code used by PHAT to render the fans is deprecated). The problem I found was that in order to get Cairo to draw the phans on the desktop (without obliterating the desktop) desktop compositing was required. I went round in circles looking at the documentation trying to find a way to get it working without compositing enabled (and without using deprecated code) but by the time I got to looking in the GTK source itself I decided to make the fans optional while additionally allowing shift to be used in combination without dragging the slider for greater precision (and ctrl for even more). I called it 'phin' and it can be found in the petri-foo source if you want to look. Yeah, I think it was always sort of a given that this would never work ideally without compositing, unfortunately. I assume transparent window hacks don't work out so well? It's a shame really, it's IMO by far the best controller idea I've seen - knobs on a mouse-driven computer screen are, have always been, and will always be, completely inappropriate... I wonder how useful it would be with the limitation of keeping it confined to one window would be... with Gtk3, the entire app draws to a single Cairo context so I believe it should be straightforward to draw a big fan or whatever across the entire window... I should probably implement this idea in FlowCanvas for (at least) Ingen. It should be doable there, confined to the canvas of course, but since it's scrollable it should be possible to make that usable by automatically scrolling as needed (the usual thing with dragging stuff in a scrollable widget). Cheers, -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
