Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:56 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: why musicians could prefer the digital way, if at least the end up in a digital media. When recording a guitar at midnight in a rental apartment I play my guitar directly connected to the mixing console, resp. some preamplification is better before using the mixer. Sometimes amp and speaker simulations can be used, but often they are too sluggish. EQs digital or analog) and early reflections (digital) often are more promising. I'm not against digital gear for guitars, OTOH tube gear has some advantages and even analog transistor gear. I mentioned the Boss Sustainer and Turbo Overdrive. Both effects can be done digital too, but the advantage when using those effects is, that you automatically get a preamp. The Hughes Kettner tube preamp is much better. At home we usually can not record a guitar amp, in a studio we can do. A flight simulator is good to practise flying, but if you want to travel, you need to use a real plane. There is nothing like a tube emulation. You can not use a mixer or sound card input with a completely different responding quality and frequency response than those provided by tubes and Celestion speakers and use an algorithm to simulate something that is missing. It's possible to handle the frequencies, when there are only frequencies to cut, but impossible to emulate a missing responding quality. For guitar the simulations are to sluggish, the responding quality of the sound cards or mixers are different to those of tube amps. Regarding the tube microphone emulation, let your Sure mic sound like a Neuman or Brauner, it's not only the tube, but much more the missing frequency response of the capsule. On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:53 +0100, James Morris wrote: Bring out the pitchforks, someone dares to not keep up with the times, burn him at the stake! You are missing the context. I'm pro old equipment, but against equipment that tries to fake vintage gear, claiming to use modern methods, while it even doesn't use the available algorithms. And again, you can simulate a flight, but you can't travel using a flight simulator. IOW if you know what to do, you can provide digital EQs and things like that, but you can not provide preamp and amp simulation, when the preamp from the mixer or sound card simply can not do what's needed for guitar. Perhaps you noticed that one of the threads is about pickups and the different sound, when using a guitar amp and when using other gear. I'm not a bonehead, I simply confront you with the technical facts. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 08:16 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Perhaps you noticed that one of the threads is about pickups and the different sound, when using a guitar amp and when using other gear. I'm not a bonehead, I simply confront you with the technical facts. And hear it is: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 07:19 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: I have a classical guitar that I put a piezo into. Ok, I broke a piezo buzzer open, put wires on the disk and used putty to stick it under the bridge :) When plugged into my mixer (impedance 10k?) it sounded really bad. I could eq it to not bad, but it took a lot of eq to do so. My wife has a fishman loudmouth guitar amp made for acoustic guitars and plugging into that made it sound wonderful with no eq at all. If Len would use Guitarix, it won't change anything, the preamp of the mixer already is the culprit. And as soon as you use a preamp, such as the Hughes Kettner I mentioned, then you could use an amp emulation, but then you don't need it anymore. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 15:25 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Have you tested Guitarix? Hermann claims that Guitarix fix such an issue, if you know how to handle Guitarix. I'm to bonehead to waste my time trying to fix such a technical issue using Guitarix, perhaps somebody approachable is willing to learn how to use Guitarix to eliminate technical facts by the magic of Guitarix tube amp emulation algorithms. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:02:34AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 15:25 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Have you tested Guitarix? Hermann claims that Guitarix fix such an issue, if you know how to handle Guitarix. And in theory it could, but I don't think Hermann is advising anyone to use Guitarix to fix a technical issue such as this one. For a piezo pickup you need the right preamp, either a very high-Z one or a charge amplifier. Not to create any 'sound' but just to make it work as intended. This has nothing at all to do with Guitarix or even tube emulation in general, so you better stop whining about it. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 08:13 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:02:34AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 15:25 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Have you tested Guitarix? Hermann claims that Guitarix fix such an issue, if you know how to handle Guitarix. And in theory it could, There's to much interaction regarding the dynamic playing done by the guitar player and the preamplification, unlikely that it make sense trying to fix it by a digital algorithm. The output of most simulations usually is without dynamic and add much noise. but I don't think Hermann is advising anyone to use Guitarix to fix a technical issue such as this one. For a piezo pickup you need the right preamp, either a very high-Z one or a charge amplifier. Not to create any 'sound' but just to make it work as intended. This has nothing at all to do with Guitarix or even tube emulation in general, so you better stop whining about it. Actually I was talking about preamps when using a guitar plugged into a mixer. Feel free to search the mailing list archive. Hermann recommended to use Guitarix and started dissing me, when I said that Guitarix can not provide what has to be done by the right amplification in the first place. Please don't misrepresent it. Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about and he claimed something that should be provided by Guitarix, that can not be provided. I pointed out that even plugging in a Boss transistor stompbox between guitar and mixer (or sound card) sometimes is better to fix the main issue, than using amp and speaker emulations. Hermann claimed that this isn't true, Guitarix does the trick, no correct preamp is needed. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:13:28 + Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: ... or a charge amplifier. Interesting you mention that. I was wondering if that sort of thing would work, although I didn't know the name - I had to look it up :) -- Will J Godfrey http://www.musically.me.uk Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:41:44AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about So he made a mistake. No reason to amplify that out of proportion. -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 09:47 +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:13:28 + Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: ... or a charge amplifier. Interesting you mention that. I was wondering if that sort of thing would work, although I didn't know the name - I had to look it up :) Unfortunately the English Wiki for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_pickup#Preamps doesn't mention the Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_amplifier , while the charge amplifier Wiki links to the guitar pickup Wiki. For Germans I recommend http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ , no liability assumed. People often claim that Wiki knowhow isn't that good, but the knowhow about audio engineering in German Wikis usually is very good. I wasn't aware that many Wikis are written by Sengpiel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_Sengpiel , but there are a lot of other good Wikis about audio engineering that seem to be written by others. Perhaps somebody with better English skills than mine, should share some audio knowhow in the way it's done in German. I never read a German audio engineering Wiki and wanted to correct something, all I read was superb. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:47:31AM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:13:28 + Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: ... or a charge amplifier. Interesting you mention that. I was wondering if that sort of thing would work, although I didn't know the name - I had to look it up :) The output produced by a piezo is an electric charge proportional to the mechanical input, so a charge amp is the right way to capture it, and the standard one for scientific or technical use. Basically what a charge amp does is to short-circuit the piezo and integrate the resulting current. And since current * time = charge, this produces the right output. What happens with a high-Z input instead is that the capacitance of the piezo itself plus that of the cable acts as the integrator. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 08:51 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:41:44AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about So he made a mistake. No reason to amplify that out of proportion. My apologies, my apologies also to Hermann. Indeed, there was no need to expand the discussion. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] Audio engineering myths - Was: Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
JFTR some kinds of special audio effects people often think they are inventions of the digital age already were done in the year I was born. Audio engineering in the early days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4 pitch shifting while keeping the length without digital algorithms :D. Since I'm a child from the 80th born in 1966, there's a remake from Jello Biafra's The last temtation of reid in 1990: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ0VMDmGdx0 ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Audio engineering myths - Was: Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 12:22 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: JFTR some kinds of special audio effects people often think they are inventions of the digital age already were done in the year I was born. Audio engineering in the early days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4 pitch shifting while keeping the length without digital algorithms :D. Since I'm a child from the 80th born in 1966, there's a remake from Jello Biafra's The last temtation of reid in 1990: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ0VMDmGdx0 PS: Audi quality just suffers from YouTube, this one is a little bit better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxVkAhto0Ag Three years later humans visited the moon! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 25.08.2014 10:51, schrieb Fons Adriaensen: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:41:44AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about So he made a mistake. No reason to amplify that out of proportion. for the record, here we go http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/2014-August/thread.html#35207 All I do is just to require ralf to stop compare bananas with peaches. (Okay, it's eggplants what I talk about. peaches, do someone mention peaches? apples? oranges? Oh shit, . . . ) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 25.08.2014 08:16, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:56 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: why musicians could prefer the digital way, if at least the end up in a digital media. When recording a guitar at [umpf..))/%$ยง!`?=)( when recording your guitar, that would be welcome, just do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoHMuLXH8ew ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
