Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[Hermann Meyer]

Am 07.12.2017 um 01:10 schrieb Len Ovens:
In case you are wondering, installing jackd1 on a debian based machine 
that already has jackd2 and other audio appliactions installed will 
first remove jackd2 as well as all appliactions that depend on it and 
then install jackd1. 



How to you come to this conclusion?
Debian provide a package (only documentation) jackd, this depend on 
jackd1 | jackd2. Now, when you'll switch between jackd1 and jackd2, or 
versa-vi, all you need to do is install the version you wont, the other 
one will be removed within this step. Not a single jack aware app will 
be removed during this step. All  jack aware packages in debian list 
both jackd versions as possible resolver.

I've done the switch often for testing purpose.
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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[David Runge]

On 2017-12-06 16:10:09 (-0800), Len Ovens wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017, David Runge wrote:
> 
> > On December 6, 2017 5:17:53 PM GMT+01:00, Christopher Arndt 
> >  wrote:
> > > Am 06.12.2017 um 15:28 schrieb David Runge:
> > > > This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into
> > > the
> > > > [community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back
> > > 
> > > Can you elaborate on that? AFAIK cadence/catia uses PyQt to draw its
> > > canvas.
> > According to its INSTALL file [1] claudia needs ladish. a2jmidid is an
> > optional dependency to cadence.
> 
> That is like saying jackd is an optional dependancy to Cadence. Unless
> things have changed, there are many debian packages that end up with a
> jackd2 dependancy and switching over to jackd1 is not trivial for many
jack{1,2} _is_ a dependency for cadence on a package and build level.
a2jmidid is a build and (packaging wise) optional dependency.

Maybe I should clarify:
I'm writing about requirements for packages.
This is basically a packaging problem, as I have to build and provide a
package in the main repositories for all build (and of course runtime)
dependencies of a program.
ladish and a2jmidid are runtime and/or build dependencies for cadence,
which means, if I want to push cadence (and all of its parts, i.e.
also claudia) to the main repositories, I have to package ladish as well
(which suffers from the aforementioned problems).

> people. Jackd2 also does not depend on a2jmidid, but there are some
> applications that depend on jackd2 being able to access a2jmidid even if it
> is not listed in the depends. If jackd1 is the goto... please make it jackd3
> and be done with it. Then depricate jackd2. Or roll the code into jackd2 as
> well... I really don't care which.
AFAIK, jack2 is a reimplementation, with SMP support, so they are really
two different architectures, that implement the same API.
tbh, I always use jack2 though...
There is no way of merging the two.

> In case you are wondering, installing jackd1 on a debian based machine that
> already has jackd2 and other audio appliactions installed will first remove
> jackd2 as well as all appliactions that depend on it and then install
> jackd1. The user is left with the task of reinstalling their audio sw... if
> that sw doesn't first remove jackd1 so it can drop jackd2 back in place. Is
> the packaging clearly broken? Yes. Can it be fixed? Half the problem is
> based on policy not code. (how long has Linux Sampler not been in debian?)
That luckily is not a problem with pacman on Arch Linux.
I've always found packaging in Debian (derivatives) to be too painful ;-)

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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[Len Ovens]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017, David Runge wrote:


On December 6, 2017 5:17:53 PM GMT+01:00, Christopher Arndt 
 wrote:

Am 06.12.2017 um 15:28 schrieb David Runge:

This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into

the

[community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back


Can you elaborate on that? AFAIK cadence/catia uses PyQt to draw its
canvas.
According to its INSTALL file [1] claudia needs ladish. a2jmidid is an 
optional dependency to cadence.


That is like saying jackd is an optional dependancy to Cadence. Unless 
things have changed, there are many debian packages that end up with a 
jackd2 dependancy and switching over to jackd1 is not trivial for many 
people. Jackd2 also does not depend on a2jmidid, but there are some 
applications that depend on jackd2 being able to access a2jmidid even if 
it is not listed in the depends. If jackd1 is the goto... please make it 
jackd3 and be done with it. Then depricate jackd2. Or roll the code into 
jackd2 as well... I really don't care which.


In case you are wondering, installing jackd1 on a debian based machine 
that already has jackd2 and other audio appliactions installed will first 
remove jackd2 as well as all appliactions that depend on it and then 
install jackd1. The user is left with the task of reinstalling their audio 
sw... if that sw doesn't first remove jackd1 so it can drop jackd2 back 
in place. Is the packaging clearly broken? Yes. Can it be fixed? Half the 
problem is based on policy not code. (how long has Linux Sampler not been 
in debian?)


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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[Simon van der Veldt]

> The source tarball download link, that I replaced in the PKGBUILD (see
first mail) went missing, as there was no web server running on gna.org
 anymore.
> Now I switched to the git repo mentioned in the same link, but the
tarball naming is not based on tags.
> a2jmidid still works, but a flaky upstream is just not so nice to deal
with as a packager at the dawn of reproducible builds in Arch.

Ah, so that was the issue. Yeah, we ran into this issue as well. Using git
probably makes the most sense, or make use of your distro's mirror
functionality (I believe arch offers this as well, not sure though).
The tags do actually match with the releases and the tarball names, they
are just single integers. I.e. the link we had was "http://download.gna.org/
a2jmidid/a2jmidid-8.tar.bz2", which matches git tag 8.
For a list, see http://repo.or.cz/a2jmidid.git/refs, but you probably
already checked that.


On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:57 PM, David Runge  wrote:

> On December 6, 2017 8:37:53 PM GMT+01:00, Simon van der Veldt <
> simon.vanderve...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I sent Nedko a mail about 6 months ago asking similar questions, to
> >which
> >he kindly replied. The short version of the answer was no real plans
> >for
> >ladish, but he did want to bring the ladish site back up.
> Hmm, that's too bad.
>
> >I didn't ask anything regarding a2jmidid because it's been working
> >perfectly for me.
> The source tarball download link, that I replaced in the PKGBUILD (see
> first mail) went missing, as there was no web server running on gna.org
> anymore.
> Now I switched to the git repo mentioned in the same link, but the tarball
> naming is not based on tags.
> a2jmidid still works, but a flaky upstream is just not so nice to deal
> with as a packager at the dawn of reproducible builds in Arch.
>
> >If you want to know more I'd suggest to try sending him an e-mail :)
> I did three weeks ago.
>
>
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>
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Re: [LAD] Fwd: Linux Audio Berlin meeting @ c-base 2017-12-06

[David Runge]

On December 6, 2017 8:57:16 PM GMT+01:00, Christopher Arndt 
 wrote:
>Am 06.12.2017 um 20:32 schrieb Simon van der Veldt:
>>> Would have some topics to talk about though (pro-audio software
>> inclusion and keeping in the Arch Linux main repositories, amongst
>> others).
>> 
>> I'd be interested in this topic as well. 
Well, in Arch most of the pro-audio packages are spread over [extra] and 
[community] with a huge gray figure in the AUR.

>
>+1
>
>Here are some packages I maintain in the AUR, a number of audio-related
>packages among them:
>
>https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/?SeB=m=SpotlightKid
>
>Maybe we could agree on some means of exchange between AUR packagers
>for
>audio software? Maybe a thread in the Arch forum? Though I'm not
>particularly fond of web forums.
There are plans for a separate mailing list for pro-audio. Guess schiv hasn't 
gotten around to set it up yet.
I'll try and bump the mailing list admins.

In any case: If you're using Arch, please start testing my rebuilds of all the 
speps packages I took over and the co-maintained ones with schiv.
They're all in [community-testing], some are still broken though and it will 
take some effort to build them again (e.g. supercollider 3.8.0).
My key is now included.


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Re: [LAD] Fwd: Linux Audio Berlin meeting @ c-base 2017-12-06

[Christopher Arndt]

Am 06.12.2017 um 20:32 schrieb Simon van der Veldt:
>> Would have some topics to talk about though (pro-audio software
> inclusion and keeping in the Arch Linux main repositories, amongst
> others).
> 
> I'd be interested in this topic as well. 

+1

Here are some packages I maintain in the AUR, a number of audio-related
packages among them:

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/?SeB=m=SpotlightKid

Maybe we could agree on some means of exchange between AUR packagers for
audio software? Maybe a thread in the Arch forum? Though I'm not
particularly fond of web forums.


Chris
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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[David Runge]

On December 6, 2017 8:37:53 PM GMT+01:00, Simon van der Veldt 
 wrote:
>I sent Nedko a mail about 6 months ago asking similar questions, to
>which
>he kindly replied. The short version of the answer was no real plans
>for
>ladish, but he did want to bring the ladish site back up.
Hmm, that's too bad.

>I didn't ask anything regarding a2jmidid because it's been working
>perfectly for me.
The source tarball download link, that I replaced in the PKGBUILD (see first 
mail) went missing, as there was no web server running on gna.org anymore.
Now I switched to the git repo mentioned in the same link, but the tarball 
naming is not based on tags.
a2jmidid still works, but a flaky upstream is just not so nice to deal with as 
a packager at the dawn of reproducible builds in Arch.

>If you want to know more I'd suggest to try sending him an e-mail :)
I did three weeks ago.


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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[Simon van der Veldt]

I sent Nedko a mail about 6 months ago asking similar questions, to which
he kindly replied. The short version of the answer was no real plans for
ladish, but he did want to bring the ladish site back up.
I didn't ask anything regarding a2jmidid because it's been working
perfectly for me.

If you want to know more I'd suggest to try sending him an e-mail :)

Cheers,
Simon

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:14 PM, David Runge  wrote:

> On December 6, 2017 5:17:53 PM GMT+01:00, Christopher Arndt <
> ch...@chrisarndt.de> wrote:
> >Am 06.12.2017 um 15:28 schrieb David Runge:
> >> This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into
> >the
> >> [community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back
> >
> >Can you elaborate on that? AFAIK cadence/catia uses PyQt to draw its
> >canvas.
> According to its INSTALL file [1] claudia needs ladish. a2jmidid is an
> optional dependency to cadence.
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/falkTX/Cadence/blob/master/INSTALL.md
>
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[LAD] Fwd: Linux Audio Berlin meeting @ c-base 2017-12-06

[Simon van der Veldt]

> Would have some topics to talk about though (pro-audio software
inclusion and keeping in the Arch Linux main repositories, amongst
others).

I'd be interested in this topic as well. Been doing some packaging for
audio production applications for gentoo and I'm starting to consider
proposing splitting off these specific pieces of software from the main
tree because I feel that that could work towards more ownership and by
extension a higher quality of the packages compared to the state we're at
currently with the  "monolithic" package tree.
Since for both Arch and Gentoo it's pretty easy for user to add custom
packages I'd be interested in the reasons why you would prefer to have the
packages in the main Arch repo (assuming that you actually prefer this of
course :)).

Thanks,
Simon

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:03 PM, David Runge  wrote:

>
>
> On 2017-12-05 11:17:36 (+0100), Daniel Swärd wrote:
> > On Tue, 2017-12-05 at 11:04 +0100, Filipe Coelho wrote:
> > > Who else is coming?
> I can't most likely. Have an electronic orchestra rehearsal on
> Wednesdays atm. which let's me be home around 9 most of the time.
> Tomorrow additionally there's a concert I might attend to (this
> Wednesday seems more crowded than most Saturdays!).
>
> Would have some topics to talk about though (pro-audio software
> inclusion and keeping in the Arch Linux main repositories, amongst
> others).
>
> Some other time then, hopefully...
>
> Best,
> David
>
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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[David Runge]

On December 6, 2017 5:17:53 PM GMT+01:00, Christopher Arndt 
 wrote:
>Am 06.12.2017 um 15:28 schrieb David Runge:
>> This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into
>the
>> [community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back
>
>Can you elaborate on that? AFAIK cadence/catia uses PyQt to draw its
>canvas.
According to its INSTALL file [1] claudia needs ladish. a2jmidid is an optional 
dependency to cadence.


[1] https://github.com/falkTX/Cadence/blob/master/INSTALL.md

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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[David Runge]

On December 6, 2017 4:33:46 PM GMT+01:00, Hanspeter Portner 
 wrote:
>Its functionality has been integrated into JACK 1 a while back, so is
>superfluous for users of the latter. Nothing should thus have a hard
>dependency on it, as the user may well be running JACK 1.
Okay, good to know. How about jack2 in this use-case though?
My knowledge might just not be up-to-date, as some of the pro-audio packages in 
Arch are out of date and some were unmaintained for quite some time.


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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[Christopher Arndt]

Am 06.12.2017 um 15:28 schrieb David Runge:
> This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into the
> [community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back

Can you elaborate on that? AFAIK cadence/catia uses PyQt to draw its canvas.


Chris

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Re: [LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[Hanspeter Portner]

On 06.12.2017 15:28, David Runge wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> is anyone maybe in close contact with Nedko Arnaudov?
> I've had trouble piecing together the upstream for a2jmidid [1], when
> rebuilding the package for Arch Linux and tried contacting him.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any activity in any of his repositories on
> github [2] in recent years (not a good sign).
> 
> Especially in the case of a2jmidid, everything I hear from people when
> asking them is "this was meant as a quick fix and not to stay around
> long"... well, it's 2017 and it has stayed around long.
> Additionally, it is dependency to some things currently in use, such as
> cadence, etc.

Its functionality has been integrated into JACK 1 a while back, so is
superfluous for users of the latter. Nothing should thus have a hard
dependency on it, as the user may well be running JACK 1.

> Nedko also worked on ladish [3], afaics, which is still dependant on the
> - long outdated/dead - flowcanvas [4].
> I don't see any activity there either (at least not in the past four
> years). Writing "the site is down" [5] doesn't make me believe that that
> project is not dead, either.
> 
> This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into the
> [community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back and if
> upstream for a2jmidid deteroriates even more, it will be removed from
> the main repositories eventually!
> 
> It would be great, if someone could shed some light on this.
> 
> Best,
> David
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/commit/trunk?h=packages/a2jmidid=43147b417cb82d3e0308f94188b5811eb7987a2a
> [2] https://github.com/nedko
> [3] https://github.com/LADI/ladish
> [4] https://drobilla.net/software/flowcanvas
> [5] http://ladish.org/
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[LAD] What's with Nedko Arnaudov?

[David Runge]

Hey all,

is anyone maybe in close contact with Nedko Arnaudov?
I've had trouble piecing together the upstream for a2jmidid [1], when
rebuilding the package for Arch Linux and tried contacting him.

There doesn't seem to be any activity in any of his repositories on
github [2] in recent years (not a good sign).

Especially in the case of a2jmidid, everything I hear from people when
asking them is "this was meant as a quick fix and not to stay around
long"... well, it's 2017 and it has stayed around long.
Additionally, it is dependency to some things currently in use, such as
cadence, etc.

Nedko also worked on ladish [3], afaics, which is still dependant on the
- long outdated/dead - flowcanvas [4].
I don't see any activity there either (at least not in the past four
years). Writing "the site is down" [5] doesn't make me believe that that
project is not dead, either.

This actively keeps programs such as cadence to be integrated into the
[community] repository in Arch, as I will not add flowcanvas back and if
upstream for a2jmidid deteroriates even more, it will be removed from
the main repositories eventually!

It would be great, if someone could shed some light on this.

Best,
David


[1] 
https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/commit/trunk?h=packages/a2jmidid=43147b417cb82d3e0308f94188b5811eb7987a2a
[2] https://github.com/nedko
[3] https://github.com/LADI/ladish
[4] https://drobilla.net/software/flowcanvas
[5] http://ladish.org/

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Re: [LAD] Linux Audio Berlin meeting @ c-base 2017-12-06

[David Runge]

On 2017-12-06 10:13:17 (+0100), Daniel Swärd wrote:
> What pro-audio software?
Current state (not so good):
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort===dvzrv=
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort===schiv=

Planned new inclusions:
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/carla/
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/faust/
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ssr/
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/helm/

There are probably more I'm not thinking of yet...


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Re: [LAD] Linux Audio Berlin meeting @ c-base 2017-12-06

[Daniel Swärd]

On Tue, 2017-12-05 at 12:03 +0100, David Runge wrote:
> pro-audio software
> inclusion and keeping in the Arch Linux main repositories

What pro-audio software?

> amongst others

Please elaborate.

Cheers

/Daniel

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Re: [LAD] Linux Audio Berlin meeting @ c-base 2017-12-06

[Daniel Swärd]

On Tue, 2017-12-05 at 13:10 +0100, David Runge wrote:
> On 2017-12-05 12:06:12 (+0100), Simon van der Veldt wrote:
> > 
> > Are these meeting listed somewhere in a calendar/announced upfront?
> They are indeed! [1] [2]

Shorter version: First Wednesday of the month.

:-)

/Daniel

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