Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread bill-auger
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:48:45 + Rui wrote:
> a. jackdbus *do* auto-start the jack-server if not already running;
> 
> b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; 
> fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there,
> so that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is
> called ;) (*)
> 
> both of the above scenarios are summoned as soon jack_client_open()
> is called *without* the JackNoStartServer option set.
> 
> my.02eur
> cheers

Rui - was that implying that those actions will happen even if
JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set?

also, that is only to say what actually happens though - you did not
actually give your opinion of whether the client should try to start
the server

almost everyone has agreed that it should not - but one additional
reason that i can add is that it is very much an inversion of the
classic "client/server" relationship - generally speaking, a client
never "causes" the server to do anything - in a proper "client/server"
relationship, the client "requests" some action of the server, and the
server decides whether or not to fulfill that request - any deviation
to that is an unconventional convenience - when the server refuses the
request or does not respond, it is properly the client's responsibility
to alert the user that the server is either broken, or the server admin
does not permit that behavior - IMHO, if the user happens to also be
the admin, that is most typically co-incidental, and it means that they,
as the admin, can and should learn how to configure and enable that
behavior explicitly - it seems to me that this "user-friendly" feature
is only replacing the un-experienced user's disappointment that: "the
JACK program wont start" with: "the JACK program started, but now my
media player has no sound"

also, FWIW strictly speaking, a request to "start yourself" is actually
nonsense - if it were not already running, it could not handle that or
any request - this is really more like a request to "activate yourself"
- that seems to be what Rui's reply was suggesting - that the clients
will request the server to start accepting connections but the server
will refuse if JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set

another reason, for completeness, that was probably everyone took as
implicit, is that: if the server does start at the client's request,
and if the user has not edited ~/.jackdrc, then the server will have the
extremely liberal default buffering and will result in a pretty terrible
"real-time" looping experience - so, the very person that this
"user-friendly" option is catering to, will be the ones that conclude
"this program sucks"

i think what i should do is have it 'JackNoStartServer' by default, and
add a configure option to enable it - then, debian can enable it without
a patch
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Nikita Zlobin
In Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:30:31 +
bill-auger  wrote:

> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should
> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to
> JackNullOption)
> 
> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others
> 
> 
> https://sources.debian.org/src/freewheeling/0.6.4-1/debian/patches/060_jackstart.diff/
> ___
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
> https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev

It's not a subject to be hated or must have, as depends on exact
situation. I made setup with desktop JACK setup, similar to kxstudio,
but different - pulseaudio constantly hangs runing with only jackdbus
module for audio devices, so when jackdbus needs to be shutdown, pulse
is over there, awaiting with nullsink for next jack run. But with
periodically runing jack - autostart would be handy, just to save a
couple of seconds, allowing to simply launch app, without worrying
about jack status.

From Rui Nuno Capella:
> b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; 
> fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there,
> so that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is
> called ;) (*)

Last time i tried to argue about libjack ability to use jack via dbus
if available, i was unaware about what ~/.jackdrc allowes - would be
strange, to open qjackctk settings and... write "/usr/bin/qjackctl" to
command line :)
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Christopher Arndt
Am 20.09.18 um 17:11 schrieb hgn:
> 
>> export JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1
> 
> Is that always honored and one can rely on that setting?

Yes.

https://github.com/jackaudio/jack1/blob/cb654ada4ecfd6a95b9fb648ebd33c5af462d380/libjack/client.c#L1023

https://github.com/jackaudio/jack2/blob/cc8576a7ab62caab10c7ddd7309367cf797c5e69/posix/JackPosixServerLaunch.cpp#L229


Chris
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Will Godfrey
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT)
Len Ovens  wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, bill-auger wrote:
>
>> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should
>> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to
>> JackNullOption)
>>
>> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others  
>
>In my opinion jack should never start itself. I spend more time on irc 
>helping people "killall -9 jackd jackdbus" than just about anything else. 
>It is a slick idea but in practice it causes more trouble than it's worth.
>
>Setting up jack to be my audio device (starts at session start) has been 
>the least trouble.
>
>While advertized as help for newbys, in the end this is an advanced option 
>only useful for those who understand jackd well... default off makes the 
>most sense.

I'm against the idea of autostart as well. In my experience anything that does
that is a recipe for unintended consequences.

-- 
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Len Ovens

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, bill-auger wrote:


the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should
autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to
JackNullOption)

i have my opinion; but i am interested in others


In my opinion jack should never start itself. I spend more time on irc 
helping people "killall -9 jackd jackdbus" than just about anything else. 
It is a slick idea but in practice it causes more trouble than it's worth.


Setting up jack to be my audio device (starts at session start) has been 
the least trouble.


While advertized as help for newbys, in the end this is an advanced option 
only useful for those who understand jackd well... default off makes the 
most sense.



--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Rui Nuno Capela
On 2018-09-20 13:02, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 03:30:31AM +, bill-auger wrote:
> 
>> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should
>> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to
>> JackNullOption)
>> 
>> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others
> 
> Definite NO.
> 
> People who suggest autostarting usually don't understand what
> Jack is and how it is used.
> 

may i add my 2-point not-so-extreme-stance-of-sorts?

there it goes:

a. jackdbus *do* auto-start the jack-server if not already running;

b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; 
fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there, so 
that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is called 
;) (*)

both of the above scenarios are summoned as soon jack_client_open() is 
called *without* the JackNoStartServer option set.

my.02eur
cheers
-- 
rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela

(*) ps. i often test over recent jack2/jackdbus "enabled" distros (read 
ubuntu, debian, whatever) and as a matter of fact the .jackdrc "hack" 
seems to work there too; that is, qjackctl pops up whenever jack-server 
is called in; even though it's configured to talk with jackdbus 
service... advantages to that bizarre situation goes like the 
jack/pulseaudio bridge becomes fully "automagic" then, as to a full 
desktop UX ootb. ;)
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Fons Adriaensen
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 03:30:31AM +, bill-auger wrote:

> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should
> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to
> JackNullOption)
> 
> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others

Definite NO.

People who suggest autostarting usually don't understand what
Jack is and how it is used. 

Ciao,

-- 
FA


___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev


Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?

2018-09-20 Thread Jacek Konieczny
On 2018-09-20 05:30, bill-auger wrote:
> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should
> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to
> JackNullOption)
> 
> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others

I hate apps auto-starting Jack. Setting Jack right is a tricky task and
it is good to have proper way to monitor the daemon. That is why we have
front-ends like qjackctl or Cadence. With jack auto-started in the
background we loose much of the control and apps may become
unpredictable when they are sometimes started after qjackctl/Cadence and
sometimes before that. I prefer to see the warning message that Jack is
not running.

On the other hand, I can understand some may prefer more transparent
behavior, like it happens with PulseAudio.

Jacek
___
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev