Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On 7/6/21 12:41 PM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 12:37:55PM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: At one time you added things that you wanted. These days you have to remove what you don't want - but might not even know was there until it interferes with what you want to do. This is *exactly* what I profoundly hate about the way Linux and in particular systemd based distros are going. After every update you have to scan a zillion places to check if anything has been added that needs to be opted-out. If that is possible at all. Yes, yes, agreed. And most of the time you cannot remove stuff, and that is by design. Plus it is more and more difficult to find _where_ things are configured, and how. Sometimes it is explained, but it is pages and pages of "stuff" and after a bit I just give up. I long for simple text configuration files, you change it, restart whatever it is if it is not dynamic, and it works! (or not :-) Maybe this is just confirmation that I am old now, ha ha. I originally moved over to Linux to avoid this sort of thing. Indeed. And that becomes more and more difficult. I don't want to add to the systemd bashing chorus here - I originally liked the idea of a simple and dependable process/service supervisor. But there's one thing that the systemd advocates never made very clear, and that is that the main reason why systemd was created was to make Linux more 'corporate friendly'. < I read somewhere it was for embedded systems or something like that > In other words, to take away control from the end user, whose only remaining freedom is to opt-out, with all the work and effort that takes, of what is dictated by some central administration. And of course the distro maintainers like it, as it gives them the same power. I'll give PW its chance when the developers tell me it's ready for real life. Which will mean a session with around 15 jack clients with a total of 800 or so ports. Should run without hickups while watching a youtube movie and compiling a kernel at the same time (which I can do now without any problem). Then don't try PW yet :-) Big ardour sessions (34 3rd order tracks) would just hang in there forever until I just killed ardour (no patience, I know). I suspect (no proof) that new port creation is really slow compared to the real jackd. What distro are you using these days? -- Fernando ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
New problem. I run jack_capture, at certain times, via cron. Can run the script manually and it works fine, but just doesn't start from the cronjob. I have no idea why. Same story with arecord and pw-record (which has no -d duration). Script works fine from command line, but no joy from the crontab (the thing I do at the same time on the next line, works). It's a head scratcher. Something I'm missing, but it's definitely staying, even if I have to set my alarm clock to remind me to run my script. -- John. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 12:37:55PM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: > At one time you added things that you wanted. These days you have to remove > what you don't want - but might not even know was there until it interferes > with what you want to do. This is *exactly* what I profoundly hate about the way Linux and in particular systemd based distros are going. After every update you have to scan a zillion places to check if anything has been added that needs to be opted-out. If that is possible at all. > I originally moved over to Linux to avoid this sort of thing. Indeed. And that becomes more and more difficult. I don't want to add to the systemd bashing chorus here - I originally liked the idea of a simple and dependable process/service supervisor. But there's one thing that the systemd advocates never made very clear, and that is that the main reason why systemd was created was to make Linux more 'corporate friendly'. In other words, to take away control from the end user, whose only remaining freedom is to opt-out, with all the work and effort that takes, of what is dictated by some central administration. And of course the distro maintainers like it, as it gives them the same power. I'll give PW its chance when the developers tell me it's ready for real life. Which will mean a session with around 15 jack clients with a total of 800 or so ports. Should run without hickups while watching a youtube movie and compiling a kernel at the same time (which I can do now without any problem). Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On 7/4/21 6:25 PM, Robin Gareus wrote: On 7/4/21 6:35 PM, John Murphy wrote: On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:48:31 -0700 Yuri wrote: [...] Does anybody have experience using it? https://pipewire.org/ Yes. I've used it for a whole day now, on Linux Mint 20.1 Ulyssa base (Ubuntu 20.04 focal). Everything seems to just work. Yes, the project is making huge progress. Also thanks to the many early adopters filing helpful issue reports. Wim and his team address them at incredible speed. If you use it, be prepared to live on the bleeding edge, e.g. until last week pipewire didn't set realtime permissions correctly, and the week before had a crashing bug with Ardour querying ports when 3rd party apps are involved. Fixed now. Hmmm, yes, realtime is fixed now?? (it was returning hardwired priorities (!) and was generally a mess). But part of the problem is rtkit itself which will not let you do what you need to do if you know what you are doing. Maybe now not using rtkit works fine. I did a quick test last week and the results with ardour were bad (up to date Fedora 34), for a complex session it would hang forever or crash. And I have seen a big difference when using jacktrip - pipewire triggers long dropouts when new clients connect, jackd is fine. So I suspect it has (had?) long delays when compared to jackd when reordering the graph when new clients connect or new ports get created. I still have to try to debug this to get more data, time time time... So update early, update often Yup... (but so far for production I have to use jackd) -- Fernando ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 15:27:53 +0100 I wrote: > I may have to do one of those. I think James Szinger's prediction [1] > is accurate, although, while I am confused I am not yet "wailing". > Now wailing with joy having found a workaround. Simply need to send 'play' to jack_transport after any 'locate'. Strange, but true. -- John. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 03:25:09 +0200 Robin Gareus wrote: > On 7/4/21 6:35 PM, John Murphy wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:48:31 -0700 Yuri wrote: > > [...] > >> Does anybody have experience using it? > >> > >> https://pipewire.org/ > > > > Yes. I've used it for a whole day now, on Linux Mint 20.1 Ulyssa base > > (Ubuntu 20.04 focal). Everything seems to just work. > > > Yes, the project is making huge progress. Also thanks to the many early > adopters filing helpful issue reports. Wim and his team address them at > incredible speed. I may have to do one of those. I think James Szinger's prediction [1] is accurate, although, while I am confused I am not yet "wailing". He says the proposal "does not mention any native tools.", by which he may mean the jack-tools package itself, which is the source of my partially working jack_transport (I use it most days via a QProcess). > If you use it, be prepared to live on the bleeding edge, e.g. until last > week pipewire didn't set realtime permissions correctly, and the week > before had a crashing bug with Ardour querying ports when 3rd party apps > are involved. Fixed now. > > So update early, update often I think I read that the PPA is updated every fifteen days, so I'll be a bit behind the sharpest edge. [1] https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/WFRFNYK7IPGJPOE7WILUPGNFXIXV4GTL/ -- John. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 12:42:06 +0200 Fons Adriaensen wrote: >On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 12:05:00PM +0200, Wim Taymans wrote: > >> The pipewire daemon is meant to be small and modular. You could run >> a custom version of that with only what you want. It could possibly be >> smaller than jack. > >Systemd started off like that as well... and now it has its tentacles >everywhere, and has become a nightmare to configure and for security. > >Some questions: > >* Will PW run without systemd, polkit, dbus ? >* Will it have a configuration that is fully controlled by the > end user, centralised in one place, and that is protected from > modification by just dropping files in some ***.d ? > >> Is it more complicated? probably.. mostly the memory management and >> abstractions of the processing nodes. > >> All of the desktop stuff (pulse-server) and autoconnect things >> (session-manager) are in separate processes that you don't need to run >> if you don't want to. > >If this is going the work the same way as systemd I fear it will be >glorious pain to for the end used to remain in control. Feature creep is my greatest concern. I consider myself moderately technical competent, but struggle with a lot of this stuff. The average user has no hope. At one time you added things that you wanted. These days you have to remove what you don't want - but might not even know was there until it interferes with what you want to do. I originally moved over to Linux to avoid this sort of thing. -- Will J Godfrey https://willgodfrey.bandcamp.com/ http://yoshimi.github.io Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 12:05:00PM +0200, Wim Taymans wrote: > The pipewire daemon is meant to be small and modular. You could run > a custom version of that with only what you want. It could possibly be > smaller than jack. Systemd started off like that as well... and now it has its tentacles everywhere, and has become a nightmare to configure and for security. Some questions: * Will PW run without systemd, polkit, dbus ? * Will it have a configuration that is fully controlled by the end user, centralised in one place, and that is protected from modification by just dropping files in some ***.d ? > Is it more complicated? probably.. mostly the memory management and > abstractions of the processing nodes. > All of the desktop stuff (pulse-server) and autoconnect things > (session-manager) are in separate processes that you don't need to run > if you don't want to. If this is going the work the same way as systemd I fear it will be glorious pain to for the end used to remain in control. -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 10:04:28AM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: > What on earth has this got to do with systemd? Although I > suppose I shouldn't be surprised with it coming from redhat. I've started moving away from systemd on all systems. Not finished yet but getting close. Had a look at the PW docs, and really didn't like what I saw. The thing looks horribly complicated, lots of abstraction for its own sake, and dependencies all over the place (dbus, polkit, systemd,...) On a more fundamental level, I don't want the 'desktop' and 'pro' audio systems to be unified. It would be even worse than having all those pesty autoconnecting Jack apps. And for the 'pro' side, I'd prefer something as simple and autonomous as possible. Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 10:51:17 +0200 Dominique Michel wrote: > For pipewire, as >systemd is an optional run time depend Why? What on earth has this got to do with systemd? Although I suppose I shouldn't be surprised with it coming from redhat. -- Will J Godfrey https://willgodfrey.bandcamp.com/ http://yoshimi.github.io Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Is Piperware a successor to Jack/Pulseaudio?
Le Thu, 1 Jul 2021 18:57:59 -0400, bill-auger a écrit : > On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 07:01:31 +0100 Keith wrote: > > > The biggest issue with Pipewire IMHO is that it does not support > > > Ubuntu 18.04 LTS. > > > > I would suggest you have that round the wrong way: Ubuntu 18.04 > > doesn't support Pipewire. This is a Ubuntu problem, not a Pipewire > > one. If it matters to an 18.04 user, they do have the option of > > upgrading to 20.04. Distros do what they can. If your favourite software is not included, you can contribute to it by at least making a bug report asking for its addition. > the pipewire devs are the ones who had the option to decide > which distros it may be compatible with - obviously, ubuntu18 > was not one that "mattered" to them - but no project is obligated > to support any specific distro, so there is no fault there either Software developers make software, not distribution. They like when a distribution support their software, but they are not responsible for that. Also, if a given software builds and works on a given distribution, as example the distro(s) of the dev(s), it should work with all other distributions where the dependencies are satisfied. For pipewire, as systemd is an optional run time depend, it should builds and works on all distributions providing alsa, dbus, python and meson, which must be something like all not very old distributions. So again, if your favourite distro did not include pipewire, you can consider to contribute to it, or for an outdated distribution, to one of its external repository or overlay. Cheers, Dominique ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
