Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

Hello Nedko!
   I've just got ladish and I'm installing it. I've looked into the 
requirements. I see there's a lot of GUI and GUI-related, which seems to be 
required. My question: Could you consider making as much as possible of the 
GUI-stuff optional. I don't have and I don't need any GUI, so I need to 
install quite a bit. In any case, the daemon itself doesn't require it, so 
does the minimum user tool (ladi_control).
   Kindest regards
   Julien


Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles)

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

Julien Claassen  writes:

> Hello Nedko!
>   I've just got ladish and I'm installing it. I've looked into the
> requirements. I see there's a lot of GUI and GUI-related, which seems
> to be required. My question: Could you consider making as much as
> possible of the GUI-stuff optional. I don't have and I don't need any
> GUI, so I need to install quite a bit. In any case, the daemon itself
> doesn't require it, so does the minimum user tool (ladi_control).

Making GUI stuff optional is perfectly possible and I like the idea. Do
you want to make a patch (or git commit somewhere) for this?

the command-line tool is called ladish_control not ladi_control

-- 
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Julien Claassen wrote:
> Hello Nedko!
>I've just got ladish and I'm installing it. I've looked into the 
> requirements. I see there's a lot of GUI and GUI-related, which seems to be 
> required. My question: Could you consider making as much as possible of the 
> GUI-stuff optional. I don't have and I don't need any GUI, so I need to 
> install quite a bit. In any case, the daemon itself doesn't require it, so 
> does the minimum user tool (ladi_control).
>Kindest regards
>Julien

I don't had time to download, compile and install it, but for me ladish 
is interesting because of storing and restoring virtual desktops. I do 
understand that someone wish to have an option not to include storage 
and restore of GUIs and I don't know if the GUI stuff has something to 
do with the desktop stuff, but I think so. To make it optional is a fair 
desire, but please as keep as default to enable any features. ;).
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

Hello Nedko!
   Now I've come up against a wall, which I don't want to climb.
   It's all to do with GUI-toolkits and their relatives. Especially flowcanvas. 
I dearly hope and plea for the feature, to optionalise the GUI-parts. 
Flowcanvas seems to require something ese, which is tedious. Because now I 
could go on installing ad nauseam, without getting anywhere in a short while.
   Well you might say, that I'm a special case, being blind, having no graphic. 
But I think this might hit other people as well. People with other 
main-GUI-toolkits or other commandline friends, and there are some.
   I'd be glad to know, if you're so far along on your way, that you seperated 
the GUI parts from the real thing.
   Kindest regards
  Julien


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

Oops, sorry about the ladi_control.
   Well I think I can't do the patch. I can have a look, but this will take 
time and energy, I'm not much into configurations and I've never seen the waf 
system. I gather it's python based.
   Kindest regards
   Julien


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

Hello Ralf!
   I think part of the GUI-stuff is necessary to restore the GUI bits of your 
studio, but part isn't. Part of the GUI stuff is for displaying ladish's own 
graphical tools. And they certainly are not needed to adminstrate the ladish 
system.
   but certainly, I don't have any problems with as much as possible being 
default.
   If waf is any good, it should be able to detect what's there and then base a 
decision on what to include and what not, informing you on the way. Like i.e. 
the oggvorbis tools. If you don't have libcurl/curl it says: Not enabling 
ogg123 and gives a reason.
   Kindest regards
   Julien


Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles)

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

Ralf Mardorf  writes:

> Julien Claassen wrote:
>> Hello Nedko!
>>I've just got ladish and I'm installing it. I've looked into the
>> requirements. I see there's a lot of GUI and GUI-related, which
>> seems to be required. My question: Could you consider making as much
>> as possible of the GUI-stuff optional. I don't have and I don't need
>> any GUI, so I need to install quite a bit. In any case, the daemon
>> itself doesn't require it, so does the minimum user tool
>> (ladi_control).
>>Kindest regards
>>Julien
>
> I don't had time to download, compile and install it, but for me
> ladish is interesting because of storing and restoring virtual
> desktops. I do understand that someone wish to have an option not to
> include storage and restore of GUIs and I don't know if the GUI stuff
> has something to do with the desktop stuff, but I think so. To make it
> optional is a fair desire, but please as keep as default to enable any
> features. ;).
>

The feature you are mentioning (window positions and virtual desktops)
is goal that is not achieved yet.

It has nothing to do with build requirements of ladish. The ones Julien
talks about are for gladish, the GUI control app. It is perfectly fine
to load project with GUI JACK apps in it from commandline through
ladish_control. And it is perfectly fine to load project GUI-less JACK
apps from gladish or LADI Tools.

-- 
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Julien Claassen wrote:
> Hello Nedko!
>Now I've come up against a wall, which I don't want to climb.
>It's all to do with GUI-toolkits and their relatives. Especially 
> flowcanvas. 
> I dearly hope and plea for the feature, to optionalise the GUI-parts. 
> Flowcanvas seems to require something ese, which is tedious. Because now I 
> could go on installing ad nauseam, without getting anywhere in a short while.
>Well you might say, that I'm a special case, being blind, having no 
> graphic. 
> But I think this might hit other people as well. People with other 
> main-GUI-toolkits or other commandline friends, and there are some.
>I'd be glad to know, if you're so far along on your way, that you 
> seperated 
> the GUI parts from the real thing.
>Kindest regards
>   Julien

Hi Julian :)

I guess some GUI stuff is important for you too, because I guess Orca 
needs some GNOME GUI stuff ;). Correct me if I'm  mistaken ;). I guess 
you're using Orca for braille all the time and sometimes for speech 
output to?

Btw. if there are alternatives to Orca please inform me (maybe 
off-list), because I sometimes meet some visual impaired people, not 
very often, but some times.

Cheers,
Ralf
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

Julien Claassen  writes:

> Hello Nedko!
>   Now I've come up against a wall, which I don't want to climb.
>   It's all to do with GUI-toolkits and their relatives. Especially
> flowcanvas. I dearly hope and plea for the feature, to optionalise the
> GUI-parts. Flowcanvas seems to require something ese, which is
> tedious. Because now I could go on installing ad nauseam, without
> getting anywhere in a short while.
>   Well you might say, that I'm a special case, being blind, having no
> graphic. But I think this might hit other people as well. People with
> other main-GUI-toolkits or other commandline friends, and there are
> some.
>   I'd be glad to know, if you're so far along on your way, that you
> seperated the GUI parts from the real thing.
>   Kindest regards
>  Julien

GUI (gladish) and the real thing (ladishd) are really separated. Later
today I'll try to modify the waf build script to support GUI-less
build. Here is a ticket for you: http://ladish.org/ticket/10

-- 
Nedko Arnaudov 


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

Thans Nedko! This is really kind of you! I appreciate it higly, be sure of it!
   Friendly regards
  Julien


Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles)

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Nedko Arnaudov wrote:
> Ralf Mardorf  writes:
> The feature you are mentioning (window positions and virtual desktops)
> is goal that is not achieved yet.
>   

Hi Nedko :)

I guess I'm well known for my unwanted criticism about Linux audio ;). 
Shame on me ;).

I'm glad to see that you plan to include it :). Okay, so for me that 
means, that I don't need to download and compile ladish today, but I 
should have a peep ;).

> The ones Julien talks about

I'm not fine with this, but I suspect that e.g. Orca needs some "GUI" 
stuff, I might be completely wrong ;).

Cheers,
Ralf
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

OK, I decided to do a quickie on-list, because I think it might be of 
interest. This is about blind people and screenreaders. If your not 
interested, just stop here. No ladish relevance in here. :-)
   You can use Linux perfectly without any screenreader like Orca or Adriana 
(Adriane?). Linux offers so many text-based applications, that a blind person 
can easily stick to the commandline only.
   For the commandline you only need a braille-display driver. There are two of 
them: brltty (currently maintained and Debian standard, also needed for Orca) 
and SBl (SuSE Blinux). Not sure if the latter is still maintained.
   And yes, if you need to rely on Javascript and other interactive goodies of 
the web, you would most certainly want a screenreader. The same goes for 
having to read AND write WORD or OFFICE documents. Reading is no problem, 
writing is the barrier. :-)
   Still I'm not sure how much a screenreader would help with the big audio 
apps. My knowledge is, that some of them bring their own widgets, which Orca 
finds dificult, and they sometimes use other purely grapical means of control. 
The latter is true for at least some aspects.
   Sorry, iff I didn't tell you anything new or interesting. I just thought, it 
might be the right time to brag a little. :-)
   Warm regards
Julien


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Julien Claassen wrote:
> OK, I decided to do a quickie on-list, because I think it might be of 
> interest. This is about blind people and screenreaders. If your not 
> interested, just stop here. No ladish relevance in here. :-)
>   You can use Linux perfectly without any screenreader like Orca or 
> Adriana (Adriane?). Linux offers so many text-based applications, that 
> a blind person can easily stick to the commandline only.
>   For the commandline you only need a braille-display driver. There 
> are two of them: brltty (currently maintained and Debian standard, 
> also needed for Orca) and SBl (SuSE Blinux). Not sure if the latter is 
> still maintained.
>   And yes, if you need to rely on Javascript and other interactive 
> goodies of the web, you would most certainly want a screenreader. The 
> same goes for having to read AND write WORD or OFFICE documents. 
> Reading is no problem, writing is the barrier. :-)
>   Still I'm not sure how much a screenreader would help with the big 
> audio apps. My knowledge is, that some of them bring their own 
> widgets, which Orca finds dificult, and they sometimes use other 
> purely grapical means of control. The latter is true for at least some 
> aspects.
>   Sorry, iff I didn't tell you anything new or interesting. I just 
> thought, it might be the right time to brag a little. :-)
>   Warm regards
>Julien

It's important :)

we're talking about audio and everybody able to see today, can become 
blind tomorrow ;). Anyway applications should have comfortable features 
for people who are able to see (I'm able to see and I like some 
comfortable graphical issues ;)), but it shouldn't be forgotten that 
seeing shouldn't be needed to make music ;) ... we're listening with our 
ears and not our eyes.

Thanks for your advice :).

Ralf
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

Nedko Arnaudov wrote:
> Julien Claassen  writes:
> 
>> Hello Nedko!
>>   Now I've come up against a wall, which I don't want to climb.
>>   It's all to do with GUI-toolkits and their relatives. Especially
>> flowcanvas. I dearly hope and plea for the feature, to optionalise the
>> GUI-parts. Flowcanvas seems to require something ese, which is
>> tedious. Because now I could go on installing ad nauseam, without
>> getting anywhere in a short while.
>>   Well you might say, that I'm a special case, being blind, having no
>> graphic. But I think this might hit other people as well. People with
>> other main-GUI-toolkits or other commandline friends, and there are
>> some.
>>   I'd be glad to know, if you're so far along on your way, that you
>> seperated the GUI parts from the real thing.
>>   Kindest regards
>>  Julien
> 
> GUI (gladish) and the real thing (ladishd) are really separated. Later
> today I'll try to modify the waf build script to support GUI-less
> build. Here is a ticket for you: http://ladish.org/ticket/10

cool. nedko, not intending to rehash the dbus carnage of yore, but:
for a headless system without a user logged in via some graphical
desktop, what is needed to be able to run LADI?

i for one would be interested in having a rudimentary start script that
gets all the $FOOkits and dbus-$GIZMOs in place so that LADIsh can work.
even if few people will use it on headless systems, it would be very
instructive and show how different system services work together.

best,


jörn

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:

> cool. nedko, not intending to rehash the dbus carnage of yore, but:
> for a headless system without a user logged in via some graphical
> desktop, what is needed to be able to run LADI?

The DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS must contain the address of the session bus
daemon. Check the man page of "dbus-launch". I launch the session bus
daemon from by ~/.xinitrc script (I don't use xdm/kdm/gdm) like this:

eval `dbus-launch --sh-syntax --exit-with-session`

The man page has more documentation. Countrary to popular beleif, D-Bus
is not bound to desktop, in the GUI sense. It does not even make sense
for the system bus where HAL and other system stuff lurks.

> i for one would be interested in having a rudimentary start script that
> gets all the $FOOkits and dbus-$GIZMOs in place so that LADIsh can work.
> even if few people will use it on headless systems, it would be very
> instructive and show how different system services work together.

You need to obtain the value for the session bus address on each tty
(local or ssh ones for headless operation). If you came with steps for
setting such envirnment, please share them - I want them on ladish.org
wiki.

-- 
Nedko Arnaudov 


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

Nedko Arnaudov  writes:

> Julien Claassen  writes:
>
>> Hello Nedko!
>>   Now I've come up against a wall, which I don't want to climb.
>>   It's all to do with GUI-toolkits and their relatives. Especially
>> flowcanvas. I dearly hope and plea for the feature, to optionalise the
>> GUI-parts. Flowcanvas seems to require something ese, which is
>> tedious. Because now I could go on installing ad nauseam, without
>> getting anywhere in a short while.
>>   Well you might say, that I'm a special case, being blind, having no
>> graphic. But I think this might hit other people as well. People with
>> other main-GUI-toolkits or other commandline friends, and there are
>> some.
>>   I'd be glad to know, if you're so far along on your way, that you
>> seperated the GUI parts from the real thing.
>>   Kindest regards
>>  Julien
>
> GUI (gladish) and the real thing (ladishd) are really separated. Later
> today I'll try to modify the waf build script to support GUI-less
> build. Here is a ticket for you: http://ladish.org/ticket/10

The fix is in the git repository. To get the sources with git:

git clone -o nedko http://nedko.arnaudov.name/git/ladish.git

This will create ladish/ subdirectory where sources will be.

-- 
Nedko Arnaudov 


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Florent Berthaut]

Hi everyone,

i'm happy to learn about this new direction for lash. It looks really 
promising.
The goal: "collaborate with x11 wm ..." reminded of an idea i had this 
summer during the RMLL ("rencontres mondiales du logiciel libre") while 
talking with musicians of the windows world.
They told me that they liked the gnu approach ("one application for one 
task"), that it was great to be able to change a part of the workflow 
independently. They also obvioulsy liked the idea of lash, being able to 
  save and recall a session.

But what they worried about (especially ableton live users) was the fact 
that a great number of windows could become complicated to handle 
compared to single window applications as live.

So the idea of remembering the windows positions is a good point but i 
think another interesting point would be to have an application that 
grabs all the music applications' windows and tiles them automatically 
(of course with the possibilities of resizing and moving each tile)
So when you restore a session all the windows are accessible at once.
This would be a sort of musical window manager and would allow to 
combine the advantage of a single window application with the advantages 
of multiple interconnected applications.

Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)

Regards

Florent


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Florent Berthaut wrote:
> Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)
>   

As far as I know it doesn't exist. One advantage of Linux is, that most 
desktop environments allow to use virtual desktops, but when making 
music by using Linux, I very often don't turn off the computer, even if 
I have a long rest, because I don't like to set up everything after the 
rest.

I don't know your knowledge about Linux, so I might give a needless 
hint. Take care to run some applications by disabling the usage of the 
PID for JACK clients. Restoring a session by using helping applications 
like jack_snapshot sometimes fail just because of this stupid issue.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Pardon

> Take care to run some applications by disabling the usage of the PID 
> for JACK client NAMES

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

Thanks Nedko. That's aweful. I'll get it and see, where I get.
   Kindest regards
  Julien


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Julien Claassen]

You're welcome. :-) Where does all the smiling come from? :-) Or better: Where 
do all the smilies come from? ;) Would you have another cann for me as well? 
:-)
   Friendly regards
   Julien


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Florent Berthaut]

Ralf Mardorf a écrit :
> Florent Berthaut wrote:
>> Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)
>>   
> 
> As far as I know it doesn't exist. One advantage of Linux is, that most 
> desktop environments allow to use virtual desktops, but when making 
> music by using Linux, I very often don't turn off the computer, even if 
> I have a long rest, because I don't like to set up everything after the 
> rest.


and you don't use two times the same setup ?
the point of lashid (previously lash) is actually that you don't have to 
re-setup everything each time.


> 
> I don't know your knowledge about Linux, so I might give a needless 
> hint. Take care to run some applications by disabling the usage of the 
> PID for JACK clients. Restoring a session by using helping applications 
> like jack_snapshot sometimes fail just because of this stupid issue.
> 

i have a workflow that i use all the time (i only make music on 
gnu/linux) and i made a simple script to start the applications and i 
record the connection in qjacktl (so everything is easily restarted) but 
that's only because two of the applications i use (namely freewheeling 
and pure data) don't support lash for now
in other situations i use lash, and i add support for it in all the 
applications that i develop.

I think lashid is "the" way to go.
But i just think it could be interesting to have something to allow 
better management of the musical applications windows.
For example, all the applications i use would startup and tile 
automatically so i can simultaneously see and interact with to the 
sampler, effects rack, live-looper, without having to select the windows 
one by one, one passing over another and so on.

I guess i could used a tiling window manager, but i think it could be 
interesting to have a more "music-oriented" system which could handle 
the audio "and" windows sessions.

Florent



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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Patrick Shirkey]

On 09/02/2009 06:48 AM, Florent Berthaut wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> i'm happy to learn about this new direction for lash. It looks really
> promising.
> The goal: "collaborate with x11 wm ..." reminded of an idea i had this
> summer during the RMLL ("rencontres mondiales du logiciel libre") while
> talking with musicians of the windows world.
> They told me that they liked the gnu approach ("one application for one
> task"), that it was great to be able to change a part of the workflow
> independently. They also obvioulsy liked the idea of lash, being able to
>save and recall a session.
>
> But what they worried about (especially ableton live users) was the fact
> that a great number of windows could become complicated to handle
> compared to single window applications as live.
>
> So the idea of remembering the windows positions is a good point but i
> think another interesting point would be to have an application that
> grabs all the music applications' windows and tiles them automatically
> (of course with the possibilities of resizing and moving each tile)
> So when you restore a session all the windows are accessible at once.
> This would be a sort of musical window manager and would allow to
> combine the advantage of a single window application with the advantages
> of multiple interconnected applications.
>
> Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)
>
>


I have had this idea for a while and your diea would compliment it very 
well.

Basically the window manager should provide a hook for the app to have a 
jack port on the title bar. This would then allow the window manager to 
control teh layout and location of all apps with a jack port. 
Alternatively it could also use ladish to provide the wrapper to all the 
ladish/jack apps.

I know it is early days since Nedko just released his updates to the 
system but I think we have an opportunity to provide this integration 
from a window management perspective. In my mind it is a logical and 
inevitable feature that will give desktop users a game like graphical 
management option they can play with and get excited about.



Cheers.

Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd





> Regards
>
> Florent
>
>
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Dennis Schulmeister]

Hi,

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 22:48 +0200, Florent Berthaut wrote:
> So the idea of remembering the windows positions is a good point but i 
> think another interesting point would be to have an application that 
> grabs all the music applications' windows and tiles them automatically 
> (of course with the possibilities of resizing and moving each tile)
> So when you restore a session all the windows are accessible at once.
> This would be a sort of musical window manager and would allow to 
> combine the advantage of a single window application with the advantages 
> of multiple interconnected applications.
> 
> Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)

That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
audio work.




Yours sincerely,
Dennis Schulmeister

-- 
Dennis Schulmeister - Schifferstr. 1 - 76189 Karlsruhe - Germany
Tel: +49 721/5978883 - Mob: +49 152/01994400 - eMail: den...@windows3.de

Now moved to the corridor: Hermes! (http://ncc-1701a.homelinux.net)
Besides that: http://www.denchris.de - http://www.motagator.net/bands/65



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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Florent Berthaut]

Dennis Schulmeister a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 22:48 +0200, Florent Berthaut wrote:
>> So the idea of remembering the windows positions is a good point but i 
>> think another interesting point would be to have an application that 
>> grabs all the music applications' windows and tiles them automatically 
>> (of course with the possibilities of resizing and moving each tile)
>> So when you restore a session all the windows are accessible at once.
>> This would be a sort of musical window manager and would allow to 
>> combine the advantage of a single window application with the advantages 
>> of multiple interconnected applications.
>>
>> Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)
> 
> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
> manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
> audio work.
> 

Of course one could use a tiling window manager ;) but maybe it is not 
suitable to have to close your usual window manager and open another one 
when you want to make music.
Having an application that manage at the same time the windows tiling 
and the session, would be really more user-friendly .


Regards,

Florent

> 
> 
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> Dennis Schulmeister
> 


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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Florent Berthaut]

Patrick Shirkey a écrit :
> 
> On 09/02/2009 06:48 AM, Florent Berthaut wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> i'm happy to learn about this new direction for lash. It looks really
>> promising.
>> The goal: "collaborate with x11 wm ..." reminded of an idea i had this
>> summer during the RMLL ("rencontres mondiales du logiciel libre") while
>> talking with musicians of the windows world.
>> They told me that they liked the gnu approach ("one application for one
>> task"), that it was great to be able to change a part of the workflow
>> independently. They also obvioulsy liked the idea of lash, being able to
>>save and recall a session.
>>
>> But what they worried about (especially ableton live users) was the fact
>> that a great number of windows could become complicated to handle
>> compared to single window applications as live.
>>
>> So the idea of remembering the windows positions is a good point but i
>> think another interesting point would be to have an application that
>> grabs all the music applications' windows and tiles them automatically
>> (of course with the possibilities of resizing and moving each tile)
>> So when you restore a session all the windows are accessible at once.
>> This would be a sort of musical window manager and would allow to
>> combine the advantage of a single window application with the advantages
>> of multiple interconnected applications.
>>
>> Perhaps it already exists, if it does please let me know ;)
>>
>>
> 
> 
> I have had this idea for a while and your diea would compliment it very 
> well.
> 
> Basically the window manager should provide a hook for the app to have a 
> jack port on the title bar. This would then allow the window manager to 
> control teh layout and location of all apps with a jack port. 
> Alternatively it could also use ladish to provide the wrapper to all the 
> ladish/jack apps.

Yes that sounds great.

> 
> I know it is early days since Nedko just released his updates to the 
> system but I think we have an opportunity to provide this integration 
> from a window management perspective. In my mind it is a logical and 
> inevitable feature that will give desktop users a game like graphical 
> management option they can play with and get excited about.
> 
> 

Exactly.


Regards

Florent

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Florent Berthaut wrote:
> I guess i could used a tiling window manager, but i think it could be 
> interesting to have a more "music-oriented" system which could handle 
> the audio "and" windows sessions.

I like the Ion WM, but I prefer a DE like e.g. KDE. KDE "really" is able 
to remember which Window should have what size and in what position it 
should open. Until today I only miss an application that is able to 
suspend audio sessions to disk and to automatically start them after I 
turn on the computer ;). Btw. I never could use Lash :(.

When making music most times I'm using Linux similar to other platforms. 
I run jack by a command line and only use one application, Qtractor, as 
sequencer and hard disk recorder and I include DSSIs and LADSPAs as 
plugins, instead of using separate applications. So most times I'm 
running the same set up ;).

I welcome ladish, but most of the times I would like to have a 
Linuxsampler DSSI, a Hydrogen DSSI etc. ;).

Ralf
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

Ralf Mardorf  writes:

> I welcome ladish, but most of the times I would like to have a
> Linuxsampler DSSI, a Hydrogen DSSI etc. ;).

You prefer DSSI over LV2? In recent years I've spent lot of time on both
JACK session handling problem and LV2. The two technologies have
something in common and have their pros and cons. I think that both are
needed. JACK plugins (apps in session handling environment) provide better
separatation and allow the developer to do more tricks, it is the more
flexible. LV2 plugins provide less overhead, better match the plugin
image in users`s heads, but are more restricte. The LV2 GUI problem is
especially bad, it slows LV2 adoption because hosts and plugins need to
use same GUI toolkit. LV2 External UI extension maybe will fix this,
time will tell. Maybe JACK plugins are more viable than LV2
plugins. After all we have more JACK mini-apps than complex
LV2+DSSI+LADSPA plugins.

-- 
Nedko Arnaudov 


pgpscJZEOpirH.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[drew Roberts]

On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
> manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
> audio work.

I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window manager with a 
tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio apps. Or 
perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside of the tiling bit.

They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It has been a 
while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details atm.

(I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from paying partial 
attention to this thread.)
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Dennis Schulmeister

all the best,

drew
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[florentberthaut]

> On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
>> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
>> manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
>> audio work.
>
> I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window manager with
> a
> tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio apps. Or
> perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside of the tiling
> bit.
>
> They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It has been
> a
> while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details atm.
>
> (I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from paying
> partial
> attention to this thread.)


No it's exactly what i meant ;)
This "tiling window manager" application would handle only the audio
applications (or the one you want it to handle) and could be started
within any DE . The goal is to combine the advantages of the "all-in one
audio app" and of a multiple applications workflow.

Regards

Florent

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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Patrick Shirkey]

On 09/03/2009 12:37 AM, florentberth...@no-log.org wrote:
>> On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
>>  
>>> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
>>> manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
>>> audio work.
>>>
>> I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window manager with
>> a
>> tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio apps. Or
>> perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside of the tiling
>> bit.
>>
>> They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It has been
>> a
>> while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details atm.
>>
>> (I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from paying
>> partial
>> attention to this thread.)
>>  
>
> No it's exactly what i meant ;)
> This "tiling window manager" application would handle only the audio
> applications (or the one you want it to handle) and could be started
> within any DE . The goal is to combine the advantages of the "all-in one
> audio app" and of a multiple applications workflow.
>
>


Can I confirm that an app that was able to tell the wm how to position 
the session would also suffice which is what Nedkos goals are iiuc?


Cheers.


Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd





> Regards
>
> Florent
>
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[drew Roberts]

On Wednesday 02 September 2009 10:37:18 you wrote:
> > On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
> >> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
> >> manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
> >> audio work.
> >
> > I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window manager
> > with a
> > tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio apps. Or
> > perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside of the tiling
> > bit.
> >
> > They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It has been
> > a
> > while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details atm.
> >
> > (I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from paying
> > partial
> > attention to this thread.)
>
> No it's exactly what i meant ;)
> This "tiling window manager" application would handle only the audio
> applications (or the one you want it to handle) and could be started
> within any DE . The goal is to combine the advantages of the "all-in one
> audio app" and of a multiple applications workflow.

Right, and each app in this meta window could have its window positioned and 
sized according to the user's wishes and remembered. Right?
>
> Regards
>
> Florent

all the best,

drew
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Danni Coy]

If I were using KDE and I had hardware that supports compositing I would
limit my audio software to a single virtual desktop and use the "present
windows" desktop effect for the current desktop to be able to see all my
windows at once.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:37 AM,  wrote:

> > On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
> >> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
> >> manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
> >> audio work.
> >
> > I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window manager
> with
> > a
> > tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio apps. Or
> > perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside of the tiling
> > bit.
> >
> > They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It has been
> > a
> > while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details atm.
> >
> > (I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from paying
> > partial
> > attention to this thread.)
>
>
> No it's exactly what i meant ;)
> This "tiling window manager" application would handle only the audio
> applications (or the one you want it to handle) and could be started
> within any DE . The goal is to combine the advantages of the "all-in one
> audio app" and of a multiple applications workflow.
>
> Regards
>
> Florent
>
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[hollunder]

On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:37:18 +0200 (CEST)
florentberth...@no-log.org wrote:

> > On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
> >> That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling
> >> window manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never
> >> tried it for audio work.
> >
> > I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window
> > manager with a
> > tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio
> > apps. Or perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside
> > of the tiling bit.
> >
> > They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It
> > has been a
> > while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details
> > atm.
> >
> > (I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from
> > paying partial
> > attention to this thread.)
> 
> 
> No it's exactly what i meant ;)
> This "tiling window manager" application would handle only the audio
> applications (or the one you want it to handle) and could be started
> within any DE . The goal is to combine the advantages of the "all-in
> one audio app" and of a multiple applications workflow.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Florent

I'm using a WM (called awesome) that can do tiling for everyday tasks as
well as audio. Since I have a rather small screen I use it mostly to get
every app fullscreen. When trying to use it for audio I ran in some
trouble. Applications like ardour require a lot of screen estate, on my
screen it hardly fits on the screen. Many other apps have a similar
minimum size that is simply not handled gracefully, at least by this WM.
Another problem is with applications that don't resize at all or that
apparently can't be handled in tiling mode. One such example is jkmeter.

So from my experience with awesome I'd say that it's theoretically a
nice idea but doesn't quite work that way. When you look at the
screenshots at tiling WM homepages you see mostly terminals, probably
for a reason. Maybe other WMs work better, but from my experience I'd
say that a WM that remembers window positions or where you could
specify them would probably work better, but I still have to explore
if that's possible with my WM.

Regards,
Philipp
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ray Rashif]

2009/9/3  

> I'm using a WM (called awesome) that can do tiling for everyday tasks as
> well as audio. Since I have a rather small screen I use it mostly to get
> every app fullscreen. When trying to use it for audio I ran in some
> trouble. Applications like ardour require a lot of screen estate, on my
> screen it hardly fits on the screen. Many other apps have a similar
> minimum size that is simply not handled gracefully, at least by this WM.
> Another problem is with applications that don't resize at all or that
> apparently can't be handled in tiling mode. One such example is jkmeter.
>
> So from my experience with awesome I'd say that it's theoretically a
> nice idea but doesn't quite work that way. When you look at the
> screenshots at tiling WM homepages you see mostly terminals, probably
> for a reason. Maybe other WMs work better, but from my experience I'd
> say that a WM that remembers window positions or where you could
> specify them would probably work better, but I still have to explore
> if that's possible with my WM.
>

Yes, exactly my thoughts. Tiling WM is simply not a solution as some apps,
Ardour primarily, actually _need_ all the space it can get. Not all of us
have > 19" or dual monitors even when it's the age of HD and Blue Ray. In
fact, as things go mobile and portable more, the less screen space is
favoured.

KDE has the potential to provide this 100%, but it needs to smoothen up its
cosmetics against usability since wihout compositing (which is a major
penalty for Intel graphics) it looks worse than my LXDE environment.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[michael noble]

If I'm understanding the latter half of this thread correctly it is exactly
what I've been wanting in a window manager for a gnu/linux based daw for a
long time - a visual patching based desktop and window manager.

Zoom out and you get a patchage like overview of all windows between which
you can make connections. You can then zoom into each app object to
whichever degree you wish using some combination of modifier key and mouse
wheel over the object, make application adjustments and then zoom back out
to the overall canvas. I think we inherited the desktop approach from
graphical design, where the notion of bounded workspaces makes more sense.
I'd rather my desktop were an unbounded extended "canvas" of inter-patchable
windows with something like LADIsh and JACK underpinning session
interconnection and management.

But who has the resources to pull something like that off?
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Patrick Shirkey]

On 09/03/2009 11:27 AM, michael noble wrote:
> If I'm understanding the latter half of this thread correctly it is 
> exactly what I've been wanting in a window manager for a gnu/linux 
> based daw for a long time - a visual patching based desktop and window 
> manager.
>
> Zoom out and you get a patchage like overview of all windows between 
> which you can make connections. You can then zoom into each app object 
> to whichever degree you wish using some combination of modifier key 
> and mouse wheel over the object, make application adjustments and then 
> zoom back out to the overall canvas. I think we inherited the desktop 
> approach from graphical design, where the notion of bounded workspaces 
> makes more sense. I'd rather my desktop were an unbounded extended 
> "canvas" of inter-patchable windows with something like LADIsh and 
> JACK underpinning session interconnection and management.
>
> But who has the resources to pull something like that off?
>



This zoom in/out functionality already exists in KDE and is also a part 
of the apple desktop.

We don't currently have a wm or desktop environemtn that communicates 
with jack.

I'm am very interested in seeing this happen and I think it can be tied 
into the lash/ladish system too.


Cheers



Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd



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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Nedko Arnaudov wrote:
> Ralf Mardorf  writes:
>
>   
>> I welcome ladish, but most of the times I would like to have a
>> Linuxsampler DSSI, a Hydrogen DSSI etc. ;).
>> 
>
> You prefer DSSI over LV2? In recent years I've spent lot of time on both
> JACK session handling problem and LV2. The two technologies have
> something in common and have their pros and cons. I think that both are
> needed. JACK plugins (apps in session handling environment) provide better
> separatation and allow the developer to do more tricks, it is the more
> flexible. LV2 plugins provide less overhead, better match the plugin
> image in users`s heads, but are more restricte. The LV2 GUI problem is
> especially bad, it slows LV2 adoption because hosts and plugins need to
> use same GUI toolkit. LV2 External UI extension maybe will fix this,
> time will tell. Maybe JACK plugins are more viable than LV2
> plugins. After all we have more JACK mini-apps than complex
> LV2+DSSI+LADSPA plugins.

VST, VSTi and LV2 support would be fine, but more common seems to be a 
good working DSSI and LADSPA support for Linux, than a good working VST, 
VSTi support or any support for LV2, even if LV2 is native Linux.

I'm using Qtractor and I guess it comes without LV2 support:

"Qtractor 0.4.2.1376

  Build target . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .: release

  JACK Audio Connection Kit support  . . . . . . . .: yes
  ALSA MIDI Sequencer support  . . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  General audio file support (libsndfile)  . . . . .: yes
  Ogg Vorbis audio file support (libvorbis)  . . . .: yes
  MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3 file support (libmad) . . . .: yes
  Sample-rate conversion support (libsamplerate) . .: yes
  Pitch-shifting support (librubberband) . . . . . .: yes
  OSC service support (liblo)  . . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  IEEE 32bit float optimizations . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  SSE optimization support (x86) . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  LADSPA Plug-in support . . . . . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  DSSI Plug-in support . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  VST Plug-in support  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .: yes

  XInitThreads() support (DANGEROUS) . . . . . . . .: no

  Gradient eye-candy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .: yes
  Debugger stack-trace (gdb) . . . . . . . . . . . .: no

  Install prefix . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .: /usr/local"
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

drew Roberts wrote:
> On Wednesday 02 September 2009 10:37:18 you wrote:
>   
>>> On Tuesday 01 September 2009 19:18:45 Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
>>>   
 That kind of application already exists. It's called a tiling window
 manager. ;) DWM is one I sometimes use although I never tried it for
 audio work.
 
>>> I think what is being asked for is more like a regular window manager
>>> with a
>>> tiling type window manager inside of it that handles the audio apps. Or
>>> perhaps all apps you assign to it. The rest exist outside of the tiling
>>> bit.
>>>
>>> They may want more flexibility inside the tiling part though. It has been
>>> a
>>> while since I fired up a tiling manager and so don't recall details atm.
>>>
>>> (I could be completely off on this read, but is is my take from paying
>>> partial
>>> attention to this thread.)
>>>   
>> No it's exactly what i meant ;)
>> This "tiling window manager" application would handle only the audio
>> applications (or the one you want it to handle) and could be started
>> within any DE . The goal is to combine the advantages of the "all-in one
>> audio app" and of a multiple applications workflow.
>> 
>
> Right, and each app in this meta window could have its window positioned and 
> sized according to the user's wishes and remembered. Right?
>   

This can be done by KDE!
Anyway you can't restore an audio session ;), but you can tell each 
individual window what it has to do after you open it, IIRC excepted of 
the desktop, everything can be remembered, if you set it to remember 
what you want a window to remember.

>> Regards
>>
>> Florent
>> 
>
> all the best,
>
> drew
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Danni Coy wrote:
> If I were using KDE and I had hardware that supports compositing I 
> would limit my audio software to a single virtual desktop and use the 
> "present windows" desktop effect for the current desktop to be able to 
> see all my windows at once.

You would break stability of your real-time kernel by using a 
proprietary 3D driver? I guess such a driver is needed and I guess 
real-time kernels sometimes aren't fine with those drivers.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

hollun...@gmx.at wrote:
> I'm using a WM (called awesome) that can do tiling for everyday tasks as
> well as audio. Since I have a rather small screen I use it mostly to get
> every app fullscreen. When trying to use it for audio I ran in some
> trouble. Applications like ardour require a lot of screen estate, on my
> screen it hardly fits on the screen. Many other apps have a similar
> minimum size that is simply not handled gracefully, at least by this WM.
> Another problem is with applications that don't resize at all or that
> apparently can't be handled in tiling mode. One such example is jkmeter.
>
> So from my experience with awesome I'd say that it's theoretically a
> nice idea but doesn't quite work that way. When you look at the
> screenshots at tiling WM homepages you see mostly terminals, probably
> for a reason. Maybe other WMs work better, but from my experience I'd
> say that a WM that remembers window positions or where you could
> specify them would probably work better, but I still have to explore
> if that's possible with my WM.
>
> Regards,
> Philipp

When running Ion2 some years ago, there only was one application that 
was hiding a window, IIRC it wasn't an audio application, all other 
applications were fine at maximal 1024x768 or maybe it was just 800x600.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Sean Corbett]

Hello all,

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> hollun...@gmx.at wrote:
>> I'm using a WM (called awesome) that can do tiling for everyday tasks as
>> well as audio. Since I have a rather small screen I use it mostly to get
>> every app fullscreen. When trying to use it for audio I ran in some
>> trouble. Applications like ardour require a lot of screen estate, on my
>> screen it hardly fits on the screen. Many other apps have a similar
>> minimum size that is simply not handled gracefully, at least by this WM.
>> Another problem is with applications that don't resize at all or that
>> apparently can't be handled in tiling mode. One such example is jkmeter.
>>
>> So from my experience with awesome I'd say that it's theoretically a
>> nice idea but doesn't quite work that way. When you look at the
>> screenshots at tiling WM homepages you see mostly terminals, probably
>> for a reason. Maybe other WMs work better, but from my experience I'd
>> say that a WM that remembers window positions or where you could
>> specify them would probably work better, but I still have to explore
>> if that's possible with my WM.

Interesting discussion... I had often thought that a tiling window
manager would be a good match for an audio environment, but you have
brought up some good points.  I plan on trying Awesome with the
machine I'm building (actually Awesome and Arch Linux are already
installed, but the mobo is currently back at Newegg :/ ) to see how it
handles a "portable studio" type of setup.  I think the trick will be
carefully customizing the WM's configuration so that it understands
how each of my apps interact with the desktop... for example, Ardour
and Ardour's mixer should probably each have their own dedicated
full-screen desktop tag, while "little" apps like QJackCtl and various
synth/FX windows should be grouped together on one desktop and have a
fixed size or even float (which many tiling WMs can do on a per-window
basis I think).  Once a sensible configuration is found, I'm hoping
that the WM will stay out of the way and boost productivity.  The
downside is that each time I add a new application to the inventory,
I'll have to tweak Awesome's configuration a bit...  but perhaps over
time (and with a little community sharing) the configuration will grow
to accommodate the majority of audio apps out there.  In the end it
might not work out, but I'm willing to give it a try based on what I
think (or hope) is possible.

How this applies to LADISH:  I'm not sure. ;)

--
sean corbett
blacktownsound.com
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Dennis Schulmeister]

On Thu, 2009-09-03 at 03:07 +0800, Ray Rashif wrote:
> Yes, exactly my thoughts. Tiling WM is simply not a solution as some
> apps, Ardour primarily, actually _need_ all the space it can get. Not
> all of us have > 19" or dual monitors even when it's the age of HD and
> Blue Ray. In fact, as things go mobile and portable more, the less
> screen space is favoured.

Applications that need a lot of space should provide scrollbars. And
that goes for windows as well as for dialogs. It's a real PITA that many
applications don't have good scrolling.



Yours sincerely,
Dennis Schulmeister

-- 
Dennis Schulmeister - Schifferstr. 1 - 76189 Karlsruhe - Germany
Tel: +49 721/5978883 - Mob: +49 152/01994400 - eMail: den...@windows3.de

Now moved to the corridor: Hermes! (http://ncc-1701a.homelinux.net)
Besides that: http://www.denchris.de - http://www.motagator.net/bands/65



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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Dennis Schulmeister wrote:
> Applications that need a lot of space should provide scrollbars. And
> that goes for windows as well as for dialogs. It's a real PITA that many
> applications don't have good scrolling.

Full ACK :). And sometimes they do have scrollbars, but they suppress 
resizing of the window, while the windows by default is very small for 
"normal" large fonts and much to small for people who need "very" large 
fonts.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[james morris]

Sorry, had to reply somewhere, and I don't know if devilspie has already
been mentioned.

Devilspie is a window-matching program. Writing the scripts/config to get
it to match a particular window is not too difficult (it uses
s-expressions), so you can get a specific window to always appear on a
particular workspace with the exact geom/pos you wish for.

Apologies also for suggesting something else without having tried out
ladish yet, but if it were to be a little like qjackctl, in having
startup/shutdown scripts the user could write, then it would not be too
difficult to have it remember/restore window positions. It might be
possible that the user would not have to even write these
scripts/configs?

I've been trying a few different window managers lately, and using dwm
(a tiling wm) just doesn't seem the best option for audio apps (a lack
of recent libs disallowed me to build awesome). The other extreme, e17,
is just ummm, no.

James.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ray Rashif]

How could I forget - e17 actually has _a lot_ of potential. More than KDE as
a whole.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/E17_bw_screenshot.png

But that's all it has - potential.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

james morris wrote:
> [snip] The other extreme, e17, is just ummm, no.

Full ACK.

I like e17, but it was much too buggy some years ago and even today it's 
not a DE I would recommend for a stable DAW. E17 is nice, but not a DE 
for carefree audio productions and it seems that the coders won't like 
to understand what is needed for real-time audio usage. Just my 
experiences. Use e17, but don't use e17 for audio production.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Ray Rashif wrote:
> How could I forget - e17 actually has _a lot_ of potential. More than 
> KDE as a whole.
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/E17_bw_screenshot.png
>
> But that's all it has - potential.

I'm an e17 and KDE user and IMHO you are wrong, just because KDE is 
stable and e17 very, very often is a PITA. I might be wrong, but I guess 
KDE is able to do nearly everything e17 could do + a little bit more. 
The only reason not to use KDE3 or KDE4 is the usage of resources by 
this DE. In addition I would suggest to use KDE with KWin and not a WM 
that needs proprietary graphics drivers. I'm only referring to the so 
called "pro-audio" usage.

Ralf
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Ray Rashif wrote:
> 2009/9/5 Ralf Mardorf  >
>
> Ray Rashif wrote:
>
> How could I forget - e17 actually has _a lot_ of potential.
> More than KDE as a whole.
>
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/E17_bw_screenshot.png
>
> But that's all it has - potential.
>
>
> I'm an e17 and KDE user and IMHO you are wrong, just because KDE
> is stable and e17 very, very often is a PITA. I might be wrong,
> but I guess KDE is able to do nearly everything e17 could do + a
> little bit more. The only reason not to use KDE3 or KDE4 is the
> usage of resources by this DE. In addition I would suggest to use
> KDE with KWin and not a WM that needs proprietary graphics
> drivers. I'm only referring to the so called "pro-audio" usage.
>
> Ralf
>
>
> I don't know what you're getting at, but I hope you understand the 
> meaning of "potential". It's evident that e17 has got it right 
> especially when its fancy graphical effects works smoothly on an AMD 
> K6. That's a start, because in that way we know nothing is choking 
> (especially in KWin where there are random artifacts if compositing is 
> disabled). What I'm saying is that it _can_ be comparable to KDE's 
> usability, sometime in the future when it's stable.
>
> For now I have to keep LXDE as a secondary environment.
>
> Anyway what WM needs proprietary graphics drivers?

E17 didn't change a lot since it was the default for the JAD installing 
media some years ago, KDE did change a lot. Yes e17 has got potential, 
that's why I'm using it again, but it's very experimental.  I don't like 
crashs when I try to chose fonts, I like to chose fonts etc., something 
that isn't fine for e17.

All those "show my desktops as a cube and add rain to my windows" and 
make all windows transparent needs proprietary drivers, okay, KWin is 
able to do transparency too, but it still isn't a "show my desktops as a 
cube and add rain to my windows" DE.

Just my 2 cents.

Ralf
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ray Rashif]

2009/9/5 Ralf Mardorf 

> Ray Rashif wrote:
>
>> How could I forget - e17 actually has _a lot_ of potential. More than KDE
>> as a whole.
>>
>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/E17_bw_screenshot.png
>>
>> But that's all it has - potential.
>>
>
> I'm an e17 and KDE user and IMHO you are wrong, just because KDE is stable
> and e17 very, very often is a PITA. I might be wrong, but I guess KDE is
> able to do nearly everything e17 could do + a little bit more. The only
> reason not to use KDE3 or KDE4 is the usage of resources by this DE. In
> addition I would suggest to use KDE with KWin and not a WM that needs
> proprietary graphics drivers. I'm only referring to the so called
> "pro-audio" usage.
>
> Ralf
>

I don't know what you're getting at, but I hope you understand the meaning
of "potential". It's evident that e17 has got it right especially when its
fancy graphical effects works smoothly on an AMD K6. That's a start, because
in that way we know nothing is choking (especially in KWin where there are
random artifacts if compositing is disabled). What I'm saying is that it
_can_ be comparable to KDE's usability, sometime in the future when it's
stable.

For now I have to keep LXDE as a secondary environment.

Anyway what WM needs proprietary graphics drivers?
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Nedko Arnaudov]

"james morris"  writes:

> Apologies also for suggesting something else without having tried out
> ladish yet, but if it were to be a little like qjackctl, in having
> startup/shutdown scripts the user could write, then it would not be too
> difficult to have it remember/restore window positions. It might be
> possible that the user would not have to even write these
> scripts/configs?

Adding hook scripts sounds like good idea. The problem is when they are
executed. ladish model is more complex and there is no simple
startup/shutdown. There is startup of studio and load of a project in a
room. Both are sequences of operations. So there have to be pre and post
hooks. Same applies for shutdown hooks. And maybe per-app hooks will be
useful too..

-- 
Nedko Arnaudov 


pgpMOft3TVo4a.pgp
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ray Rashif]

2009/9/5 Ralf Mardorf 

>
> E17 didn't change a lot since it was the default for the JAD installing
> media some years ago, KDE did change a lot. Yes e17 has got potential,
> that's why I'm using it again, but it's very experimental.  I don't like
> crashs when I try to chose fonts, I like to chose fonts etc., something that
> isn't fine for e17.
>
> All those "show my desktops as a cube and add rain to my windows" and make
> all windows transparent needs proprietary drivers, okay, KWin is able to do
> transparency too, but it still isn't a "show my desktops as a cube and add
> rain to my windows" DE.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Ralf
>

That's right - the word is experimental. If and when it gets out of that
phase, which judging from over 8 years (was the e in JAD e16 or 17?) of
development so far doesn't look near, it will be a worthy option.

But saying all that, the irony is that I just installed and updated myself
again to the latest intel driver (was previously on a downgraded version due
to slow 3D performance), set up KMS, and my KDE 4.3 is looking as good as it
never did before. Simply amazing, and surprising because I thought it'd take
at least until 2010 to sort that one out.

The first thing to try would be getting messages across the windows, and use
double-clicks to select one. Since KWin already has the drawing thing, it's
possible to interactively render a cable a la QJackCtl. So this is
inter-application communication, which I'm not sure is trivial.

Then again, why go through so much work for the same function? (signal
routing; already accomodated for by QJackCtl) It'd just be another step
towards fanciness, not sure how effective it'd really be. Once there are too
many channels/ports, it'll get to a point where it'll be cumbersome.
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Re: [LAD] [LAU] [ANN] LADI Session Handler - Preview 1

[Ralf Mardorf]

Ray Rashif wrote:
> 2009/9/5 Ralf Mardorf  >
>
>
> E17 didn't change a lot since it was the default for the JAD
> installing media some years ago, KDE did change a lot. Yes e17 has
> got potential, that's why I'm using it again, but it's very
> experimental.  I don't like crashs when I try to chose fonts, I
> like to chose fonts etc., something that isn't fine for e17.
>
> All those "show my desktops as a cube and add rain to my windows"
> and make all windows transparent needs proprietary drivers, okay,
> KWin is able to do transparency too, but it still isn't a "show my
> desktops as a cube and add rain to my windows" DE.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Ralf
>
>
> That's right - the word is experimental. If and when it gets out of 
> that phase, which judging from over 8 years (was the e in JAD e16 or 
> 17?) of development so far doesn't look near, it will be a worthy option.

Sorry for my late reply, I'm still short in time :S. It was called e17.

> But saying all that, the irony is that I just installed and updated 
> myself again to the latest intel driver (was previously on a 
> downgraded version due to slow 3D performance), set up KMS, and my KDE 
> 4.3 is looking as good as it never did before. Simply amazing, and 
> surprising because I thought it'd take at least until 2010 to sort 
> that one out.
>
> The first thing to try would be getting messages across the windows, 
> and use double-clicks to select one. Since KWin already has the 
> drawing thing, it's possible to interactively render a cable a la 
> QJackCtl. So this is inter-application communication, which I'm not 
> sure is trivial.
>
> Then again, why go through so much work for the same function? (signal 
> routing; already accomodated for by QJackCtl) It'd just be another 
> step towards fanciness, not sure how effective it'd really be. Once 
> there are too many channels/ports, it'll get to a point where it'll be 
> cumbersome.

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