Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2022 at 02:15:12PM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote:

> In audio software, the classic example being Phasex which seems to
> get just about everything wrong :(

:-) A good example of the 'identical items arranged in a line'
which I mentioned before. 

It's by no means the only one which gets about everything wrong.
Just have a look at .

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[Will Godfrey]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 13:40:13 +0200
Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

>* Avoiding information overload in emergency conditions.
>Pilots are trained to prioritise and divide their tasks,
>but this can still be a problem, and a lot of research
>is done to avoid it.
>
>Ciao,
>
This is the biggie for me - in general, let alone any kind of emergency. In
audio software, the classic example being Phasex which seems to get just about
everything wrong :(

When (if?) we get another LAC this whole issue would make a very good topic.

-- 
Will J Godfrey
https://willgodfrey.bandcamp.com/
http://yoshimi.github.io
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
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Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2022 at 08:49:36AM +0200, Thorsten Wilms wrote:

> So far I thought the differences are all about much higher requirements
> on readability at a glance and stableness.

Not just 'at a glance' but also in exceptional circumstances
and under stress. For example imagine your aircraft is damaged
and shaking violently. Your eyeballs will be shaking as well.
Now if you have a series of identical items arranged in a line
on a display, it will be extremely difficult to read them, you
just won't know which is which. Also imagine having to use a
touch panel in those conditions, it would be just impossible.

> More contrast

Enough but not too much. Lighting conditions can be extreme in
a cockpit. If you're landing e.g. at LGIR (Herakleon, Crete)
on RWY 27 in the late afternoon you will be looking straight
into the sun for minutes and wearing sunglasses. Come a few
hours later and it will be pitch black. Displays must be
readable and not induce eye fatigue in both cases. BTW, since
most flat panel displays produce polarised light, pilot's
sunglasses must NOT be polarised.

> avoiding superfluous styling, no deep layering.

Yep. And no animation, popups, etc.

> Being able to rely on training much more.

You rely and training and professional knowledge instead of
random 'exploration'. Which also means function is indicated
using standard (English) words or acronyms, and not by icons 
(which can be much more ambiguous than most people imagine).
Also accessibility is not an issue.

> Fons, do you have examples of such guidelines that don‘t work
> for cockpits, that may surprise the layman? 

Many (if not most) computer applications are about 'editing'
some sort of document. Even a DAW fits into that category
when used to create music - but not e.g. when used 'live',
just as a mixer and/or playback device.

Controlling an aircraft (or any machine) is something very
different. So the whole set of standard menus like 'File',
'Edit', 'Tools' etc. doesn't make much sense.

Some of the requirements could be unexpected. For example
it needs to be unconditionally clear if some function is
'active' or just 'armed' (meaning it will automatically 
become 'active' later). Or if some displayed value is the
'actual' one or the 'target' one that e.g. an autopilot
will try to achieve. Usually this is done by consistent
use of colour.

That said, all controls that directly affect operation will
be hardware ones, not items in a menu or toolbar. Displays
such as the PFD and NAV panels are just displays and not
used for input. The only exception to that would be the
MCDUs - the things in the central pedestal between the
pilots that look like a 'calculator on steroids'. These 
provide an interface to almost everything in a modern
aircraft. Recent models actually have a trackball and
are used much like a conventional PC application. But
they are for setup and information lookup only. 

There are two important aspects of user interface design
in a modern 'glass cockpit', and they can be at odds:

* Maintain situational awareness. Automation is fine but
the pilots need to aware of what it is doing at all times.
This can be quite complex.

* Avoiding information overload in emergency conditions.
Pilots are trained to prioritise and divide their tasks,
but this can still be a problem, and a lot of research
is done to avoid it.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[John Rigg]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 09:49:13PM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote:
> Therefore please consider either defaulting to a lighter layout, or
> alternatively, at first time start give a choice using a system alert/choice
> window. If you don't provide a lighter option, maybe consider doing so.

Options are good. I'm not too far behind you in age so I empathise.
I actually have the opposite problem and find dark GUIs easier
(especially in a darkened studio or live venue), but they need to have
a good level of contrast. The current trend for ultra-low contrast in
many office applications and web page designs causes me real problems.

Some way of making text larger is a good thing too. I find myself
increasingly using command line programs because it's easier to set
the size of text in the console or xterm than it is in many GUIs.

John
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Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 00:06:08 +0200
Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> Simple fact is that all popular GUI toolsets are targeted to developing 
> 'office'
> or 'social' type of applications and completely fail to address the needs for
> anything outside that limited scope. There is much more to this than just the
> choice of colors. 

Indeed. It’s a shame, as office-type applications could benefit from
higher standards of providing information at a glance and efficient
means of control (even at the cost of being less obvious).


> I've been involved in creating displays used in aircraft cockpits and similar
> technical environments. Almost all of the 'standard' GUI design guidelines
> (as advocated by 'computer science' academics) have been shown to be either
> irrelevant or just plain wrong for such applications. That probably includes
> graphical interfaces for pro-audio systems. 

So far I thought the differences are all about much higher requirements
on readability at a glance and stableness. More contrast, avoiding
superfluous styling, no deep layering. Being able to rely on training
much more.

Fons, do you have examples of such guidelines that don‘t work for
cockpits, that may surprise the layman? 


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Thorsten Wilms 
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Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 09:49:13PM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote:

> As a {cough} sprightly 73 year old I'm starting to have sight difficulties -
> especially dark colours and night vision. With the current trend of dark GUI
> shades this presents me with a problem when using new software. Some, but not
> all of these programs do provide alternatives. However they default to dark, 
> and
> I have a hard time finding how to change this, or indeed, even seeing which
> options are available.

Being a few but not so much years younger I do understand the problems you
may have. But I don't think the essence of this can be simplified to 'light'
vs 'dark' themes. There are good reasons for having dark themes - working in
a dark environment like a concert being the most evident one.

Even a dark theme can be perfectly readable if designed well. This may involve
more than just changing the colors of a light one. For example, you'll probably
need 'bolder' fonts as well. And the background should never be completely black
but provide an amount of brightness that allows your eyes to adjust to it. It
is the inability of your vision to adjust that makes many dark themes hard to
use.

Simple fact is that all popular GUI toolsets are targeted to developing 'office'
or 'social' type of applications and completely fail to address the needs for
anything outside that limited scope. There is much more to this than just the
choice of colors. 

I've been involved in creating displays used in aircraft cockpits and similar
technical environments. Almost all of the 'standard' GUI design guidelines
(as advocated by 'computer science' academics) have been shown to be either
irrelevant or just plain wrong for such applications. That probably includes
graphical interfaces for pro-audio systems. 

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [LAD] A GUI request

[Dominique Michel]

Le Sun, 5 Jun 2022 21:49:13 +0100,
Will Godfrey  a écrit :

> Therefore please consider either defaulting to a lighter layout, or
> alternatively, at first time start give a choice using a system
> alert/choice window. If you don't provide a lighter option, maybe
> consider doing so.
> 
Personally, I prefer dark themes but I understand very well Will's
issue. I face a similar issue with small font sizes, they are just
unreadable for me on a high definition screen.

Accessibility is a very serious issue for a software to be usable by as
many people than possible. As example, half of the African population
cannot read text, which imply most software are just of no use for
them.

But, if a GUI include some text fields, please make them readable
by anybody by providing some kind of font preferences. If that
preference, or the theme preferences, are made by some config file
or with environmental variables, please advertise about it into the
documentation.

Cheers,
Dominique
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[LAD] A GUI request

[Will Godfrey]

As a {cough} sprightly 73 year old I'm starting to have sight difficulties -
especially dark colours and night vision. With the current trend of dark GUI
shades this presents me with a problem when using new software. Some, but not
all of these programs do provide alternatives. However they default to dark, and
I have a hard time finding how to change this, or indeed, even seeing which
options are available.

Therefore please consider either defaulting to a lighter layout, or
alternatively, at first time start give a choice using a system alert/choice
window. If you don't provide a lighter option, maybe consider doing so.

-- 
Will J Godfrey
https://willgodfrey.bandcamp.com/
http://yoshimi.github.io
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
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