Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:39:01 + Rui wrote: > > i think what i should do is have it 'JackNoStartServer' by default, and > > add a configure option to enable it > > i'm afraid it's too late for that going into the decade old stable > jack-API; > better resort to set JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 on default users shell > profile. you may be misunderstanding my suggestion or my position in this - i am not the debian maintainer - i have no control over the user skel and it would be intrusive and pretentious to write to their .bashrc - i am the upstream maintainer trying to satisfy both debian who wants clients to autostart JACK, and also non-debian users who may take my binary packages or compile themselves i was suggesting to add a switch to the ./configure script of freewheeling (not to JACK) such as: '--enable-jack-autostart', that would select between two '#ifdef' blocks in the source code at compile-time; one with 'JackNoStartServer' passed to jack_client_open() and the other with 'JackNullOption' depending on whether or not '--enable-jack-autostart' was given to ./configure - debian could use that switch, debian users could over-ride that behavior with JACK_NO_START_SERVER if they choose to, and others could choose for themselves at compile-time; all without anyone patching ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On 2018-09-21 06:46, bill-auger wrote: > On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:48:45 + Rui wrote: >> a. jackdbus *do* auto-start the jack-server if not already running; >> >> b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; >> fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there, >> so that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is >> called ;) (*) >> >> both of the above scenarios are summoned as soon jack_client_open() >> is called *without* the JackNoStartServer option set. >> >> my.02eur >> cheers > > Rui - was that implying that those actions will happen even if > JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set? > no. i wasn't implying anything. JACK_NO_START_SERVER should be honored and i believe it is; > also, that is only to say what actually happens though - you did not > actually give your opinion of whether the client should try to start > the server > i'm kinda neutral on that matter, sorry. imho. though i'm happy with the jack auto-start feature, specially the .jackdrc "hack" to start qjackctl instead of the jackd server directly: it gives me all the visibility and control over the jack audio system life cycle, on each of my desk- and laptops. > almost everyone has agreed that it should not - but one additional > reason that i can add is that it is very much an inversion of the > classic "client/server" relationship - generally speaking, a client > never "causes" the server to do anything - in a proper "client/server" > relationship, the client "requests" some action of the server, and the > server decides whether or not to fulfill that request - any deviation > to that is an unconventional convenience - when the server refuses the > request or does not respond, it is properly the client's responsibility > to alert the user that the server is either broken, or the server admin > does not permit that behavior - IMHO, if the user happens to also be > the admin, that is most typically co-incidental, and it means that > they, > as the admin, can and should learn how to configure and enable that > behavior explicitly - it seems to me that this "user-friendly" feature > is only replacing the un-experienced user's disappointment that: "the > JACK program wont start" with: "the JACK program started, but now my > media player has no sound" > > also, FWIW strictly speaking, a request to "start yourself" is actually > nonsense - if it were not already running, it could not handle that or > any request - this is really more like a request to "activate yourself" > - that seems to be what Rui's reply was suggesting - that the clients > will request the server to start accepting connections but the server > will refuse if JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set > no. if JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set the jack-server won't get (auto-)started and clients will fail to activate their jack driver code--no ports registered, no connections possible anyway--for most jack clients out there this is often a death sentence. > another reason, for completeness, that was probably everyone took as > implicit, is that: if the server does start at the client's request, > and if the user has not edited ~/.jackdrc, then the server will have > the > extremely liberal default buffering and will result in a pretty > terrible > "real-time" looping experience - so, the very person that this > "user-friendly" option is catering to, will be the ones that conclude > "this program sucks" > yes. > i think what i should do is have it 'JackNoStartServer' by default, and > add a configure option to enable it - then, debian can enable it > without > a patch i'm afraid it's too late for that going into the decade old stable jack-API; better resort to set JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 on default users shell profile. cheers -- rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:48:45 + Rui wrote: > a. jackdbus *do* auto-start the jack-server if not already running; > > b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; > fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there, > so that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is > called ;) (*) > > both of the above scenarios are summoned as soon jack_client_open() > is called *without* the JackNoStartServer option set. > > my.02eur > cheers Rui - was that implying that those actions will happen even if JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set? also, that is only to say what actually happens though - you did not actually give your opinion of whether the client should try to start the server almost everyone has agreed that it should not - but one additional reason that i can add is that it is very much an inversion of the classic "client/server" relationship - generally speaking, a client never "causes" the server to do anything - in a proper "client/server" relationship, the client "requests" some action of the server, and the server decides whether or not to fulfill that request - any deviation to that is an unconventional convenience - when the server refuses the request or does not respond, it is properly the client's responsibility to alert the user that the server is either broken, or the server admin does not permit that behavior - IMHO, if the user happens to also be the admin, that is most typically co-incidental, and it means that they, as the admin, can and should learn how to configure and enable that behavior explicitly - it seems to me that this "user-friendly" feature is only replacing the un-experienced user's disappointment that: "the JACK program wont start" with: "the JACK program started, but now my media player has no sound" also, FWIW strictly speaking, a request to "start yourself" is actually nonsense - if it were not already running, it could not handle that or any request - this is really more like a request to "activate yourself" - that seems to be what Rui's reply was suggesting - that the clients will request the server to start accepting connections but the server will refuse if JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 is set another reason, for completeness, that was probably everyone took as implicit, is that: if the server does start at the client's request, and if the user has not edited ~/.jackdrc, then the server will have the extremely liberal default buffering and will result in a pretty terrible "real-time" looping experience - so, the very person that this "user-friendly" option is catering to, will be the ones that conclude "this program sucks" i think what i should do is have it 'JackNoStartServer' by default, and add a configure option to enable it - then, debian can enable it without a patch ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
In Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:30:31 + bill-auger wrote: > the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should > autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to > JackNullOption) > > i have my opinion; but i am interested in others > > > https://sources.debian.org/src/freewheeling/0.6.4-1/debian/patches/060_jackstart.diff/ > ___ > Linux-audio-dev mailing list > Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org > https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev It's not a subject to be hated or must have, as depends on exact situation. I made setup with desktop JACK setup, similar to kxstudio, but different - pulseaudio constantly hangs runing with only jackdbus module for audio devices, so when jackdbus needs to be shutdown, pulse is over there, awaiting with nullsink for next jack run. But with periodically runing jack - autostart would be handy, just to save a couple of seconds, allowing to simply launch app, without worrying about jack status. From Rui Nuno Capella: > b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; > fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there, > so that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is > called ;) (*) Last time i tried to argue about libjack ability to use jack via dbus if available, i was unaware about what ~/.jackdrc allowes - would be strange, to open qjackctk settings and... write "/usr/bin/qjackctl" to command line :) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
Am 20.09.18 um 17:11 schrieb hgn: > >> export JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 > > Is that always honored and one can rely on that setting? Yes. https://github.com/jackaudio/jack1/blob/cb654ada4ecfd6a95b9fb648ebd33c5af462d380/libjack/client.c#L1023 https://github.com/jackaudio/jack2/blob/cc8576a7ab62caab10c7ddd7309367cf797c5e69/posix/JackPosixServerLaunch.cpp#L229 Chris ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Len Ovens wrote: >On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, bill-auger wrote: > >> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should >> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to >> JackNullOption) >> >> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others > >In my opinion jack should never start itself. I spend more time on irc >helping people "killall -9 jackd jackdbus" than just about anything else. >It is a slick idea but in practice it causes more trouble than it's worth. > >Setting up jack to be my audio device (starts at session start) has been >the least trouble. > >While advertized as help for newbys, in the end this is an advanced option >only useful for those who understand jackd well... default off makes the >most sense. I'm against the idea of autostart as well. In my experience anything that does that is a recipe for unintended consequences. -- Will J Godfrey http://www.musically.me.uk Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, bill-auger wrote: the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to JackNullOption) i have my opinion; but i am interested in others In my opinion jack should never start itself. I spend more time on irc helping people "killall -9 jackd jackdbus" than just about anything else. It is a slick idea but in practice it causes more trouble than it's worth. Setting up jack to be my audio device (starts at session start) has been the least trouble. While advertized as help for newbys, in the end this is an advanced option only useful for those who understand jackd well... default off makes the most sense. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On 2018-09-20 13:02, Fons Adriaensen wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 03:30:31AM +, bill-auger wrote: > >> the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should >> autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to >> JackNullOption) >> >> i have my opinion; but i am interested in others > > Definite NO. > > People who suggest autostarting usually don't understand what > Jack is and how it is used. > may i add my 2-point not-so-extreme-stance-of-sorts? there it goes: a. jackdbus *do* auto-start the jack-server if not already running; b. legacy jackd *do* auto-start exactly what's in "~/.jackdrc" file; fwiw. i do have this "/absolute/path/to/qjackctl --start" in there, so that qjackctl pops up whenever a(ny) jack client application is called ;) (*) both of the above scenarios are summoned as soon jack_client_open() is called *without* the JackNoStartServer option set. my.02eur cheers -- rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela (*) ps. i often test over recent jack2/jackdbus "enabled" distros (read ubuntu, debian, whatever) and as a matter of fact the .jackdrc "hack" seems to work there too; that is, qjackctl pops up whenever jack-server is called in; even though it's configured to talk with jackdbus service... advantages to that bizarre situation goes like the jack/pulseaudio bridge becomes fully "automagic" then, as to a full desktop UX ootb. ;) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 03:30:31AM +, bill-auger wrote: > the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should > autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to > JackNullOption) > > i have my opinion; but i am interested in others Definite NO. People who suggest autostarting usually don't understand what Jack is and how it is used. Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
On 2018-09-20 05:30, bill-auger wrote: > the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should > autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to > JackNullOption) > > i have my opinion; but i am interested in others I hate apps auto-starting Jack. Setting Jack right is a tricky task and it is good to have proper way to monitor the daemon. That is why we have front-ends like qjackctl or Cadence. With jack auto-started in the background we loose much of the control and apps may become unpredictable when they are sometimes started after qjackctl/Cadence and sometimes before that. I prefer to see the warning message that Jack is not running. On the other hand, I can understand some may prefer more transparent behavior, like it happens with PulseAudio. Jacek ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] should JACK programs autostart the server?
Am 20.09.18 um 05:30 schrieb bill-auger: > the debian maintainer of freewheeling suggested that it should > autostart the server if it is not running (change JackNoStartServer to > JackNullOption) > > i have my opinion; but i am interested in others I personally hate that behaviour, because I'm alway running jack-dbus and start and stop the server via a DBUS-client. Thatswhy I always have export JACK_NO_START_SERVER=1 in my ~./bashrc. Chris ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
