Re: ECN is on!
Folks, herewith I declare this topic ("ECN is on") TABOO, if
you want to continue discussing it, do that at linux-kernel
WITH NEW TOPIC.
My original message had reply-to pointing to linux-kernel,
but all it takes is single person to ignore that...
Spare the other lists, my original intention was to "spread
the word", as not everybody subscribes linux-kernel ...
/Matti Aarnio
-
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Re: ECN is on!
Tony Hoyle writes: > Richard Gooch wrote: > > > In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the > > suggestion to bounce mails of the following type: > > - MIME encoded > > - HTML encoded > > - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to > > read). > > Surely it'd be better to get the list to filter them through stripmime? > > I'd be tempted to put a message at the top at the same time: > "*WARNING* The message below was sent by someone too clueless to > configure their email client properly" Well, while that would be somewhat satisfying, there is a problem if the message gets corrupted by this. And since some people send to the list without being subscribed (or, like me, have duplicate filtering), they'll never see that their message was mangled as it passed through the list. Nope, a bounce is better. If you're going to do these things, feedback is essential. The bounce isn't meant to offend the sender, it's designed to let them know what's happening. Regards, Richard Permanent: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Current: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Richard Gooch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Sure, Dave is being bloody-minded, but that's the only way we'll see > people get off their fat, lazy asses and fix their broken systems. > In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the > suggestion to bounce mails of the following type: > - MIME encoded > - HTML encoded > - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to > read). MIME is no encoding, but a way to declare mail contents and encode binary data. You need not use it on mail you send. HTML is no encoding. (No doubt it's usually sent by people without A Clue[tm] or being ruthless.) quoted-printable is an encoding, and it's probably around for ten years now. I can send base64 if you like that better, but then, even more people will cry, while others don't even notice. Gnus 5.8 + Emacs, mutt, Netscape Communicator are three packages which deal with MIME-"enhanced" mail. Plus, people which use any characters beyond ASCII have no real choice but to use MIME; if they have MTAs in between that don't talk ESMTP/8BITMIME, then quoted-printable is what happens. Use emil, metamail or such if you want to keep your mailer. -- Matthias Andree - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
On Tuesday 22 May 2001 12:14, David S. Miller wrote: > Matti Aarnio writes: > > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to > > let email out, but DaveM has veto there. > > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > get people to fix their kit. > > We will remove these people, that's all. > How about telling _ALL_ the lists in good time then - not just one or two. All recent items (last 6 months) from Dave Miller to Linux-Hams below... Re: ECN is on! Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "David S. Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Re: Welcome to linux-hams Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:37:55 -0700 From: "David S. Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Re: All messages double in Linux-Hams Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 18:13:15 -0700 From: "David S. Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Robin - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
FOLKS, I HAVE ALL THE TIME USED 'Reply-To:' HEADER POINTING TO linux-kernel -- INSTEAD OF ALL THE LISTS... If you want to continue this, do it there. (Before I decide to taboo "Re: ECN is on!" subject line..) On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 12:23:29PM -0400, Richard Gooch wrote: ... > Well, while that would be somewhat satisfying, there is a problem if > the message gets corrupted by this. And since some people send to the > list without being subscribed (or, like me, have duplicate filtering), > they'll never see that their message was mangled as it passed through > the list. > > Nope, a bounce is better. If you're going to do these things, feedback > is essential. The bounce isn't meant to offend the sender, it's > designed to let them know what's happening. The only GOOD time to bounce is at SMTP reception into VGER, not latter. It doesn't have facilities to do all what Majordomo taboo filters do now. (Just because I have been lazy and haven't done any such content filters for vger.) With ECN on, emailed bounce messages won't (necessarily) make it to the sender at all. Majordomo's filter bounces the message to be approved by list owner -- who usually uses the 'D' key to my knowledge. > Regards, > > Richard > Permanent: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Current: [EMAIL PROTECTED] /Matti Aarnio - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECN is on!
Not to mention, not everyone on the list runs their own mailservers. -Original Message- From: Steve Modica [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 12:28 To: Rogier Wolff Cc: Richard Gooch; Brent D. Norris; David S. Miller; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECN is on! Rogier Wolff wrote: > The "we'll turn it on in February" warning is worth NOTHING in this > situation: February comes and goes. March comes and goes. Everybody > who read the warning will think: Ok, so I must be fine. > > A warning of the form: "ECN will go on as soon as this message clears > the queues" would've been useful, as thousands (hundreds?) suddenly get > nothing anymore. > I agree with this line of thinking. The various academics studying geology have been warning California about "The Big One" for years now, and no one seems to care anymore. I don't think anyone's being lazy and I certainly don't have the information to comment on the size of their butts. So I'd rather just assume they were working very hard on other things (like getting TPC-H benchmarks to run!) Steve -- Steve Modica Manager - Networking Drivers Group "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, hit him with a fish and he leaves you alone" - me - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Rogier Wolff wrote: > The "we'll turn it on in February" warning is worth NOTHING in this > situation: February comes and goes. March comes and goes. Everybody > who read the warning will think: Ok, so I must be fine. > > A warning of the form: "ECN will go on as soon as this message clears > the queues" would've been useful, as thousands (hundreds?) suddenly get > nothing anymore. > I agree with this line of thinking. The various academics studying geology have been warning California about "The Big One" for years now, and no one seems to care anymore. I don't think anyone's being lazy and I certainly don't have the information to comment on the size of their butts. So I'd rather just assume they were working very hard on other things (like getting TPC-H benchmarks to run!) Steve -- Steve Modica Manager - Networking Drivers Group "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, hit him with a fish and he leaves you alone" - me - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Richard Gooch wrote: > Dave sent a message out a week or two ago saying he was going to do it > soon. And back in January he said he'd be doing it in February. The > kernel list FAQ has stated this right at the top, in big, bright red > letters. Yesterday, after I saw Dave's announcement, I updated the FAQ > to reflect that we're now running ECN. > > People have had plenty of warning. Think of it as a bonus that it > didn't happen back in February. They've had an extra 3 months to sort > something out. The "we'll turn it on in February" warning is worth NOTHING in this situation: February comes and goes. March comes and goes. Everybody who read the warning will think: Ok, so I must be fine. A warning of the form: "ECN will go on as soon as this message clears the queues" would've been useful, as thousands (hundreds?) suddenly get nothing anymore. Roger. -- ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** http://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2137555 ** *-- BitWizard writes Linux device drivers for any device you may have! --* * There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots. * There are also old, bald pilots. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Richard Gooch wrote: > In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the > suggestion to bounce mails of the following type: > - MIME encoded > - HTML encoded > - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to > read). Surely it'd be better to get the list to filter them through stripmime? I'd be tempted to put a message at the top at the same time: "*WARNING* The message below was sent by someone too clueless to configure their email client properly" :-) Tony -- "Two weeks before due date, the programmers work 22 hour days cobbling an application from... (apparently) one programmer bashing his face into the keyboard." -- Dilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nothing-on.tv - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Brent D. Norris writes: > > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > > get people to fix their kit. > > > > We will remove these people, that's all. > > Isn't this a problem though because the messge saying that ECN was > enabled was set after ECN was enabled? Thus these people have no > idea what is going on and they probably won't know what to fix until > they do. Dave sent a message out a week or two ago saying he was going to do it soon. And back in January he said he'd be doing it in February. The kernel list FAQ has stated this right at the top, in big, bright red letters. Yesterday, after I saw Dave's announcement, I updated the FAQ to reflect that we're now running ECN. People have had plenty of warning. Think of it as a bonus that it didn't happen back in February. They've had an extra 3 months to sort something out. I note with disgust the number of places which should know better, but still haven't fixed their kit. Most appalling was missionalcriticallinux.com. Shame! Sure, Dave is being bloody-minded, but that's the only way we'll see people get off their fat, lazy asses and fix their broken systems. In fact, hopefully he's still in a dark mood, and he may take up the suggestion to bounce mails of the following type: - MIME encoded - HTML encoded - quoted printables (those stupid "=20" things are particuarly hard to read). Regards, Richard Permanent: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Current: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Alan Cox writes: > > Matti Aarnio writes: > > > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to > > > let email out, but DaveM has veto there. > > > > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > > get people to fix their kit. > > > > We will remove these people, that's all. > > Since HTML email also has a spec can we remove the people who moan > about that too ;) I'm sure M$ Exchange has a spec too. Doesn't mean we should support it. As a community, we need to fight against the darkness. > "MIME, oh mime, how I hate thee. Let me stick pins in you to >count the ways..." -- Ben LaHaise Amen, brother! Regards, Richard Permanent: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Current: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
"David S. Miller" wrote: > > Matti Aarnio writes: > > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to > > let email out, but DaveM has veto there. > > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > get people to fix their kit. > > We will remove these people, that's all. > > Later, > David S. Miller > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-net" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps it's none of my business, but it doesn't seem very sporting to just turn something on that breaks stuff and say "you had fair warning". Why not shut it back off, issue a statement saying it works now and will be re-enabled on June 10th or something, and everyone must do thus and so or they will break on that day? Vague things like "it'll be turned on real soon now" or ASAP really mean "never" since admins always have things with real deadlines at the top of their list. Steve -- Steve Modica Manager - Networking Drivers Group "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, hit him with a fish and he leaves you alone" - me - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 06:51:57AM -0500, Brent D. Norris wrote: > > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > > get people to fix their kit. > > > Isn't this a problem though because the messge saying that ECN was enabled > was set after ECN was enabled? Thus these people have no idea what is > going on and they probably won't know what to fix until they do. Not really, Dave Miller warned in advance that vger would enable ECN Real Soon Now [tm]. If that wasn't a trigger for people to test if their stuff could handle ECN, what does? Erik -- J.A.K. (Erik) Mouw, Information and Communication Theory Group, Department of Electrical Engineering, Faculty of Information Technology and Systems, Delft University of Technology, PO BOX 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands Phone: +31-15-2783635 Fax: +31-15-2781843 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www-ict.its.tudelft.nl/~erik/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
> I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > get people to fix their kit. > Isn't this a problem though because the messge saying that ECN was enabled was set after ECN was enabled? Thus these people have no idea what is going on and they probably won't know what to fix until they do. > We will remove these people, that's all. > > Later, > David S. Miller > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > Brent Norris Executive Advisor -- WKU-Linux - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
> Matti Aarnio writes: > > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to > > let email out, but DaveM has veto there. > > I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and > get people to fix their kit. > > We will remove these people, that's all. Since HTML email also has a spec can we remove the people who moan about that too ;) Alan -- "MIME, oh mime, how I hate thee. Let me stick pins in you to count the ways..." -- Ben LaHaise - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECN is on!
Matti Aarnio writes: > I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to > let email out, but DaveM has veto there. I veto, the whole point of moving to ECN was to make a statement and get people to fix their kit. We will remove these people, that's all. Later, David S. Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ECN is on!
... and immediately I have been able to verify a bunch of domains/servers which won't get thru when incoming connection has ECN.I tested all of these with Linux running ECN, and Solaris 2.6 without ECN. When Solaris got connection, and ECN-Linux didn't, domain and its server got listed. Amazing share of these troubled destination systems run some firewall which thinks it is cool to fuck SMTP protocol. (I mean obscuring responses given by the remote system, frobbing incoming protocol if some particular detail doesn't please the rules it presumes to play with, etc..) I am contemplating to periodically turn off the ECN bit to let email out, but DaveM has veto there. This list is NOT exhaustive of domains with problems, it primarily lists only those who are subscribers of linux-kernel, and thus accumulated (al lot) more than 1 email with "connection timed out" status into vger's queue. DEST. DOMAIN SERVER NAME ic.sunysb.edu -> bartman.ic.sunysb.edu olympus.phys.wesleyan.edu -> olympus.phys.wesleyan.edu imap.reed.edu -> imogen.reed.edu aplcomm.jhuapl.edu -> dallas.jhuapl.edu mail.utexas.edu -> mx2.mail.utexas.edu cs.jhu.edu -> hops.cs.jhu.edu judy.indstate.edu - gets connected, but then freezes. cc.usu.edu -> cc.usu.edu aubi.de -> mail.aubi-online.de opensource.se -> mail.carambole.com routemeister.net-> mail.carambole.com *.swipnet.se-> smtp-ext.swip.net swipnet.se -> smtp-ext.swip.net get2net.dk -> smtp-ext.swip.net dina.kvl.dk -> sheridan.dina.kvl.dk enea.se -> ruff.enea.se able.es -> jalon.able.es vadoc.state.va.us -> mail.vadoc.state.va.us libero.it -> smtp-in.libero.it ra.cit.alcatel.fr -> mail.alcatel.fr csse.monash.edu.au -> ld-mx.it.monash.edu.au galactica.it-> mail.galactica.it ds.catv.ne.jp -> cs14.catv.ne.jp mailbox.dsnet.it-> mailin.dsnet.it lee.k12.nc.us -> shomer.lee.k12.nc.us sh.bel.alcatel.be -> mx001.alcatel.be quantum.cicese.mx -> quantum.cicese.mx isuzu.pl-> isztye02.isuzu.pl gruppocredit.it -> mext.gruppocredit.it debitel.net -> mail.dnsg.net optical.lvl.pri.bms.com -> chimera.bms.com us.celoxica.com -> mail.us.embeddedsol.com ford.com-> mail0.allegro.net vnnews.com -> mail.cinet.vnn.vn echostar.com-> rf-mail1.echostar.com jetform.com -> mail.jetform.com half.com-> mailhub.half.com pa.dec.com -> ztxmail01.ztx.compaq.com compaq.com -> ztxmail01.ztx.compaq.com zk3.dec.com -> ztxmail01.ztx.compaq.com allaire.com -> smtp.allaire.com catalog-international.com -> ciexchange.catalog-international.com lcr-m.com -> mail1.lcr-m.net logica.com -> mail4.messagelabs.com missioncriticallinux.com-> mail.missioncriticallinux.com msdw.com-> mx1.ms.com honeywell.com -> tmpsmtp702.honeywell.com austin.ibm.com -> mg02.austin.ibm.com btinternet.com -> moongate.btinternet.com geeksimplex.org -> DNS A: 24.18.90.197 (home.com cable) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-fsdevel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
