Re: OT: taxing websites in Israel
Hi Ira,
We haven't had any problem with getting the Israeli tax authorities to
recognize domain registration expenses as business expenses. I suggest
that your friend consult his accountant or maybe get a different
accountant. Tangibility has never been a requirement for recognition as
a business expense. We work with pakid hashuma in Jerusalem and in Kfar
Saba.
Regards,
- yba
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Ira Abramov wrote:
The Israeli IRS: How to tax a website.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2366553,00.html
(this is for a few of my friends who went freelance in the last couple
of months). apperently DNS domain purchasing is not acceptable for tax
deduction (as purchases to enhance the business), since they are not a
tangible product. I could claim that by the same standard buying any
piece of software over the net (no CDs exchanging hand or ownership of
the software, only a license number is given, much like with a domain
name) then one should not be examplt from such purchases too.
tax authorities are annoying...
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Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux(was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Eli Marmor wrote: I didn't want to detail too much in the point of CONF files, because it was not my main point. But it caused some balagan, so please let me give an example of a format that is not proprietary, and on the other hand is not XML, and still is great for developing GUI's for: X Resources. Does it threat anybody? No?OK; Let's go on: I believe X-Resources is a text file that is editable by hand. Not that I like it much. There are several requirements that are critical for creating a good GUI. One of them is the ability to work against a working program, and not just a file. Because you can't just open the file, guess all the values of ifdefs, the default path (for includes), the directory that the opedning program is in during the open, etc. When you are working against a working program, you know its current run-time values of these resources. In addition, it allows you to affect its CURRENT behavior immediately, resulting in a WYSIWYG that is so important for GUI (think editres; don't think UIM/X). Affecting a program at run-time? I don't want to affect crond at run-time or inetd at run-time or even Apache at run-time. I want to configure them, and run them with the same configuration. If you want to create an Apache Module that will listen to requests and with some authentication be able to configure the entire Apache at run-time and change it in the configuration file be my guest. I am content with reloading or restarting Apache whenever I make a chage. Of course, you need a bidirectional mapping (i.e. not only from the disk representation to the in-memory representation, but also vice- versa); Otherwise, the changes can't be translated to rules of configuration files. You need clear definitions; Not definitions that may start anywhere in the line, withany number of leading/trailing spaces/tabs/etc. that you never know which are part of the value and which are not, with leveling that is based on semi-XML directives (/directory /), with ambiguous comments, with ifdefs that you never know if theleveling that is hidden by them is really hidden - or only the rules inside those levels, with too many ways to say yes (e.g. tRuE, oN, falling back to the default, etc.) and so on. There are many other formatting issues that ease or harden the ability to develop a good GUI. Granted. That why I suggested an abstraction. Something that will generate an Apache configuration. If you modify the abstraction using the abstraction-specific tools. If you modify the Apache configuration files directly, that may be lost after you use the abstraction again. No 1-1 mapping, rather a subset of functionality. Of course, Ira complained on iglu-web that Suse's YAST 2 did not take into account changes he made to the configuration files manually and kept running over them. The Mandrake system is less balantly leaky and actually reads stuff from there. If you want to supply a subset of functionality to a newbie user using an abstraction do so. But a power user would want the real and complete configuration scheme. From my impression, the configuration of IIS was much more limited in consideration to Apache's. I could not even get it to serve a certain directory on a different port with its GUI. That was a few years ago. The reason I wanted it was because I had a script that that was only supposed to be internally used by our team, and there was a web-site hosted on that server. X Resources, contrary to ASCII CONF files (like Apache's or NAMED), meets all these demands. Of course, it is not so friendly, but when you have a great GUI - who cares?It is still friendly enough for hackers like us. Will this migration happen? No way; People develop Open Source for their own fun. Or for their own use (for example, most of the core developers of Apache need it for their own sites). When there is a company (please don't force me to spell the name of Redmond's companies) behind the product, they have balls (sorry for the word...) and don't give a sh*t (sorry again) on their users, so they can replace formats whenever it is important for the evolution of their product. Of course, there are also negative cases, so please don't give examples that Microsoft (sorry) abused this process and replaced a good format by a bad format or broke the compatibility of a program that was used by 100 million users. But when the users developthe program, there are some things that they would never do. Some of these things are bad, but improving the format is sometimes good and needed. I don't understand if you consider the MS way or the UNIX way the better one. In any case, XML-based formats or Perl Nested Data-Structures give way to easy extensibility. (look at HTML for instance) But XML tends to be hard to maintain by hand. P.S. Many years ago, I developed a great GUI for X. You could take even a binary program, and change its screens,
Dealing with low disk space
A newbie question: when attempting to install a large application (OpenOffice) it refused due to low disk space. Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a mess? Thanks, -- The News, Uncensored http://www.tellinglies.org/news/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On Sunday 12 January 2003 10:57, Shoshannah Forbes wrote: Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a mess? An automated one ? not that I can recall. but you can always use `du -Hs` to look at each directory's disk usage and see where you waste all the space and then decide if you want to delete it. there's even a graphical utility that shows you this in a user friendly but detailed manner, for KDE , called KDirStat. url: http://kdirstat.sourceforge.net/ -- Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Make files and environment
Hi list.
not really alinux question, but if you please -
I'm writing a Makefile to build some project, and it needs to get some data
from environment variables. specificly some variables that are initialized
from a profile.d bash file. now I know that I can access environment
variables from make using ${NAME}, but the problem is that sometimes the
Makefile is run with no environment set - specificly, when being invoked as a
post-commit script in CVS when called by a windows CVS client. is it possible
to somehow 'source' a specified bash file to export its environment into a
Makefile from withing the make process ?
Everything I tried so far failed (which mostly involved treating a Makefile as
a glorified bash script - which apparently it isn't).
--
Oded
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Re: Dealing with low disk space
Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A newbie question: when attempting to install a large application (OpenOffice) it refused due to low disk space. Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a mess? Try du(1) for the first part (who is the hog?). As for the second part (what is safe to remove) sane systems do not assume that they are smarter than you. Besides, it may depend on the partitioning of your disk. It may be that you are trying to install OO in, say, your root partition which is close to saturated, but /usr/local or /opt or whatever may have enough space. And, of course, it may be that /usr/local and /opt are in your root partition, depending on what you chose at install time. Look around your HD with du(1), see what's going on. Maybe you can archive away a few GB of old mail or images or build directories for software that you downloaded, compiled, and installed already. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is nothing more practical than idealism. [Richard M. Stallman, quoted with permission] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On 2003-01-12 Shoshannah Forbes wrote: A newbie question: when attempting to install a large application (OpenOffice) it refused due to low disk space. Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a mess? I usually do it manually: cd into a some directory and list everything, sorted by disk usage: cd somewhere du -sk * | sort -n Usually I just delete my own files, but sometimes I do it as root, deleting stuff that I *know* I can delete safely. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
du -sk * | sort -n And you also probably want to use 'df -k' [1] to see how much free space you have, listed per partition. If your partitoin is too small to begin with, you can tell OpenOffice to install itself into a different location. [1] or df -H, as I just learnt from Oded's post :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make files and environment
Oded Arbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi list.
not really alinux question, but if you please -
I'm writing a Makefile to build some project, and it needs to get some data
from environment variables. specificly some variables that are initialized
from a profile.d bash file. now I know that I can access environment
variables from make using ${NAME}, but the problem is that sometimes the
Makefile is run with no environment set - specificly, when being invoked as a
post-commit script in CVS when called by a windows CVS client. is it possible
to somehow 'source' a specified bash file to export its environment into a
Makefile from withing the make process ?
Everything I tried so far failed (which mostly involved treating a Makefile as
a glorified bash script - which apparently it isn't).
What's wrong with
$ . profile make -e
?
--
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There is nothing more practical than idealism.
[Richard M. Stallman, quoted with permission]
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Re: Make files and environment
On 2003-01-12 Oded Arbel wrote:
Hi list.
not really alinux question, but if you please -
I'm writing a Makefile to build some project, and it needs to get some data
from environment variables. specificly some variables that are initialized
from a profile.d bash file. now I know that I can access environment
variables from make using ${NAME}, but the problem is that sometimes the
Makefile is run with no environment set - specificly, when being invoked as a
post-commit script in CVS when called by a windows CVS client. is it possible
to somehow 'source' a specified bash file to export its environment into a
Makefile from withing the make process ?
Everything I tried so far failed (which mostly involved treating a Makefile as
a glorified bash script - which apparently it isn't).
Maybe the clean way is to do it from the 'post-commit script'?
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RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
Hi! Since Petakh-Tikva is a bit out of the way for a Ramat-Aviv-Gimel person like me, I am planning to take a taxi there. If anyone wants to join me and share the bill, please speak now. Alternatiely, if you can give _me_ a ride in your private vehicle, I'll be more than glad to accept this offer. (anywhere central in Tel-Aviv will be a fine pick-up place) Thanks in adance, Shlomi Fish -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make files and environment
On Sunday 12 January 2003 11:36, Christoph Bugel wrote: Maybe the clean way is to do it from the 'post-commit script'? On Sunday 12 January 2003 11:42, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: What's wrong with $ . profile make -e You mean - source the profile script before calling make from the post-commit script ? that's an idea. thanks. -- Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
I have semi official information that reveals that bus number 49 from Ramata Aviv to Petach Tikva should cost about 8 NIS. Shachar. Shlomi Fish wrote: Hi! Since Petakh-Tikva is a bit out of the way for a Ramat-Aviv-Gimel person like me, I am planning to take a taxi there. If anyone wants to join me and share the bill, please speak now. Alternatiely, if you can give _me_ a ride in your private vehicle, I'll be more than glad to accept this offer. (anywhere central in Tel-Aviv will be a fine pick-up place) Thanks in adance, Shlomi Fish -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, Shoshannah Forbes wrote about Dealing with low disk space:
Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is
using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a
mess?
Several people suggested du to you.
Du would be very useful when used on your own home directory, to find
files which you created and that you consider are safe to delete.
But it's not very useful outside your own directory; When du tells you
that /usr takes 2 GB, how do you know what in there you can safely delete?
Also, when running on an RPM-based system (such as Redhat) you are not
supposed (usually) to remove individual programs - you are supposed to
remove a package, which removes the program along with whichever other
files were installed with it.
Another benefit of using rpm -e packagename to remove a whole package
instead of trying to remove individual files yourself, is that rpm -e
won't let you remove something that something else depends on.
For example, it won't let you remove some shared library you think is not
important, if another program is using that library and you didn't remove
that other program first.
What you'll probably want to do is to list all the packages on your system
in size-order (so that you can focus on checking and maybe deleting the
largest ones). Do this by running
rpm -q --queryformat %{NAME} %{SIZE}\n -a | sort +1nr | less
Now, look at the largest RPMs. If you can't what a certain RPM is, run
rpm -qil packagename | less
to show you the package's description ('i') and the files it includes ('l').
When a package seems useless to you, say a package of Swedish translations
of KDE messages, feel free to rpm -e it (you'll need to run rpm -e as
root, obviously).
Rpm -e will, again, refuse to remove packages that something else depends
on, so you have nothing to fear.
Just try not to remove packages that you use yourself ;)
Another tip: on Redhat, many libraries come in two seperate packages,
a normal package and a -devel packages (for example gnome-libs and
gnome-libs-devel). If you are never planning to compile anything on your
machine, you can remove most of these -devel packages. I would leave
glibc-devel behind, though - because without it you'll not be able to
compile any C program, at all (hmm, some people might not even care about
that).
--
Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jan 12 2003, 9 Shevat 5763
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The meek shall inherit the Earth, for
http://nadav.harel.org.il |they are too timid to refuse it.
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Re: Dealing with low disk space
Hello, On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, Shoshannah Forbes wrote about Dealing with low disk space: Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a mess? But it's not very useful outside your own directory; When du tells you that /usr takes 2 GB, how do you know what in there you can safely delete? Debian has nice program debfoster that verifies that all packages you have installed in your system you actually use (through dependencies or asking you directly). apt-get install debfoster --- Bye, | Fax: (972)-2-6796453 Arieh | Phone: (972)-6795364 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
On 2003-01-12 Shachar Shemesh wrote: I have semi official information that reveals that bus number 49 from Ramata Aviv to Petach Tikva should cost about 8 NIS. The IBM building is also some 10 or 15 minutes walk from the Jabotinski / Geha junction. And getting there is quite easy with public traffic, IIRC, bus/sherut number 51, 66, and probably lots of others. (dont know about traffic jams though...) Petach-Tikva | jezira-| | IBM | | |=geha== | | | | jabotinski TelAviv = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On Sunday 12 January 2003 13:07, Nadav Har'El wrote:
people, what all the fuss about ?
didn't shoshnnah ONLY want to know how much free space she has on each
partition ? what's wrong with a simple df -h ? :)
as for the OO installation, my guess is that its a simple low space in /tmp or
~/tmp issue.
tal.
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, Shoshannah Forbes wrote about Dealing with low disk
space:
Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is
using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a
mess?
Several people suggested du to you.
Du would be very useful when used on your own home directory, to find
files which you created and that you consider are safe to delete.
But it's not very useful outside your own directory; When du tells you
that /usr takes 2 GB, how do you know what in there you can safely
delete?
Also, when running on an RPM-based system (such as Redhat) you are not
supposed (usually) to remove individual programs - you are supposed to
remove a package, which removes the program along with whichever other
files were installed with it.
Another benefit of using rpm -e packagename to remove a whole package
instead of trying to remove individual files yourself, is that rpm -e
won't let you remove something that something else depends on.
For example, it won't let you remove some shared library you think is not
important, if another program is using that library and you didn't remove
that other program first.
What you'll probably want to do is to list all the packages on your system
in size-order (so that you can focus on checking and maybe deleting the
largest ones). Do this by running
rpm -q --queryformat %{NAME} %{SIZE}\n -a | sort +1nr | less
Now, look at the largest RPMs. If you can't what a certain RPM is, run
rpm -qil packagename | less
to show you the package's description ('i') and the files it includes
('l').
When a package seems useless to you, say a package of Swedish translations
of KDE messages, feel free to rpm -e it (you'll need to run rpm -e as
root, obviously).
Rpm -e will, again, refuse to remove packages that something else depends
on, so you have nothing to fear.
Just try not to remove packages that you use yourself ;)
Another tip: on Redhat, many libraries come in two seperate packages,
a normal package and a -devel packages (for example gnome-libs and
gnome-libs-devel). If you are never planning to compile anything on your
machine, you can remove most of these -devel packages. I would leave
glibc-devel behind, though - because without it you'll not be able to
compile any C program, at all (hmm, some people might not even care about
that).
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Re: RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
On 2003-01-12 I wrote: The IBM building is also some 10 or 15 minutes walk from the On second thought, make that 20 minutes. Your mileage may vary :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Oded Arbel wrote:
On Sunday 12 January 2003 10:57, Shoshannah Forbes wrote:
Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is
using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a
mess?
An automated one ? not that I can recall.
but you can always use `du -Hs` to look at each directory's disk usage and see
where you waste all the space and then decide if you want to delete it.
My 2c:
du -scH /path/to/check/*
('H' is optional. It will somnetimes make the output more readable, but
sometimes 'k' or nothing at all will give you a better idea, because 32M
and 323 don't look very different)
or:
du -scH /ath/to/check/* |sort -n
Then you find the subdirs with most content, and see which of their
subdirs takes everything, with a command similar to the above.
A note about performance: Typically the first time you run 'du' (with
whatever switches) on a certain subtree it will read the file siszes of
all the files from the disk, and thus will take relatively long. But on
later runs you can generally expect for the relevant data (the inodes, in
this case) to remain in the cache, and thus any further runs on the same
tree or a subtree are expected to take a much shorter time.
--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
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Re: Stallman's speech
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 áéåí øàùåï 12 éðåàø 2003, 13:16, Oleg Goldshmidt ëúá: Oleg Goldshmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: track. Can the people who work in IBM and read this check whether the audio of that lecture could be put online? We will ask. That's all I can promise. Apparently, to keep (let alone distribute) a recording a written permission from the lecturers would be needed. There is no such permission (I don't know if it was asked for), and there is no recording. Hi Oleg, Do you or IBM have a presentation (available in the web) of the Ted Tso' lecture (the lecture in Hifa) ? Doron Ofek -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+IV0UUa4lXxqoBCERAvnxAJ4tH2d7oeH/8EKZPHAl4BpaJIxWmACfaSZA +QlKkkkAevr4PLQQAXZ9Dx4= =tzBA -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On Sunday 12 January 2003 14:15, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: du -scH /ath/to/check/* |sort -n Side note : I don't think this line would work - it will sort '32MB' before '450kB' which is hardly what you'd want :-) Side note to Amir Tal: Isn't this what IGLU is all about - getting into heated discussions over simple issues ? ;-) -- Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make files and environment
On Sunday 12 January 2003 12:53, Oded Arbel wrote: On Sunday 12 January 2003 11:36, Christoph Bugel wrote: Maybe the clean way is to do it from the 'post-commit script'? On Sunday 12 January 2003 11:42, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: What's wrong with $ . profile make -e You mean - source the profile script before calling make from the post-commit script ? that's an idea. thanks. Yep, works for me (tm). thanks guys. -- Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ha'aretz article regarding RMS
Hello Richard, linux-il members. (Un?)Fortunately I am ill, so I had some free (as in beer) time and translated most of this article back into English. If someone can give a copy to RMS on Tuesday, it could be nice, I know he was interested in the content of this article. I won't come, I'm afraid. Terminology: I use f/b for Free as in free beer or the Hebrew HINAM and f/s for Free as in free speech or HOFSHI in Hebrew. I didn't translate the entire article verbatim, I'll try to give the general idea in most. I will present ideas even if I don't agree with them, so don't shoot the translator... Stuff in square brackets represent either difficulties in translation or my own opinions or comments. Title: f/s is entirely open subtitle, verbatim: Tens of millions of people today use computer software written in the spirit of f/s software by Richard Stallman. Thousands of volunteers inspired by him have developed the operating system Linux, today being the only alternative to Microsoft's Windows. An interview with the greatest idealist revolutionist of the computer age, prior to his visit to Israel. by: Yuval Dror. verbatim: 19 years have passed, 19 years, and they still don't understand that f/s is not f/b. When Richard Stallman says them he means us. Stallman doesn't understand how the world doesn't realize most software we use ruin our lives. They ruin our lives, he says, because they make us betray the basic human morality: Help thy neighbor. That's why all non-f/s software, shut down all companies who write them, fire all employees that write them. verbatim: this sounds extreme, but stallman is far from being a rogue or insignificant in the flourishing western software industry. Tens of millions of people use today software written in his spirit. Induced by his ideology, thousands of people have developed the Linux os, today being the only alternative to Microsoft's Windows. Although Stallman's radical opinions sound eccentric, Stallman has a deep influence on the software industry, an influence which depth reminds the one of Microsoft's founder, Bill Gates. verbatim: Stallman, a 49 y/o American, is the founder and main preacher of the social-technological FSF (Free Software Foundation), urging to write and use f/s software. His speech is slow, and he emphasizes every word. Attempts to interject a question are completely ignored. People who met him say that the gaze in his green eyes is fixating; It doesn't let you break his gaze, doesn't leave you until he's sure you have understood the message he is trying to convey. His appearance is also out of the ordinary: He grows a thick beard and his hair reach his shoulders. next 4 paragraphs tell the printer driver anecdote, emphasizing the difference between f/s and f/b. next paragraph defines the 4 'freedoms' that qualify software as f/s software: Can be used for any purpose, can be modified (which implies access to the source code), can be redistributed and the ability to distribute modified versions. subtitle: All the wealth in the world. verbatim: When Stallman finish specifying these freedoms, he keeps quiet. At this stage the listener realizes that all of the software he uses every day (the Windows OS, the Word word processor, computer games and other pieces of software) are far from complying with the Stallman definition of f/s software. Stallman knows he will have to face disrespectful stares and dismissing gestures. next comes a discussion about why software should be f/s. The author explains that the cost of copying the software is negligible, but the world has found a way to sell software and hence software mustn't be copied. the following dialog is verbatim: Yuval: There's an economic problem with the model you're suggesting. Stallman: Economy shouldn't interest us. Business shouldn't interest us. The real issue is our way of life. We shouldn't let business issues determine our life's quality. Yuval: In practice you are urging people to copy software, to do a pirate act that effects the software companies economy. Stallman: Why does it hurt their economy? They claim that every time I copy software they loose money. They don't lose money - they just don't earn money. If they imagine they'll get money from me, but eventually don't - did they loose anything? There are people, like Bill Gates, that think they are entitled to all the wealth in this world. In their mind's eye they move the wealth to themselves, and complain that reality doesn't follow suit. Someone who sells mineral water in bottles can complain that I'm drinking tap water. He can get angry, because he lost money. The question is whether his anger is acceptable, socially logical. Yuval: You have recently said programmers don't need to be rich. Don't you think this kind of statements keep people away from you? Stallman: That may be, but I'm still right. Programmers need to make a living, but there's no commandment that says that if you write software you should get
Ha'aretz article regarding RMS
[this email was also sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sent it from the wrong address, so it didn't get to the list. This is a resend.] Hello Richard, linux-il members. (Un?)Fortunately I am ill, so I had some free (as in beer) time and translated most of this article back into English. If someone can give a copy to RMS on Tuesday, it could be nice, I know he was interested in the content of this article. I won't come, I'm afraid. Terminology: I use f/b for Free as in free beer or the Hebrew HINAM and f/s for Free as in free speech or HOFSHI in Hebrew. I didn't translate the entire article verbatim, I'll try to give the general idea in most. I will present ideas even if I don't agree with them, so don't shoot the translator... Stuff in square brackets represent either difficulties in translation or my own opinions or comments. Title: f/s is entirely open subtitle, verbatim: Tens of millions of people today use computer software written in the spirit of f/s software by Richard Stallman. Thousands of volunteers inspired by him have developed the operating system Linux, today being the only alternative to Microsoft's Windows. An interview with the greatest idealist revolutionist of the computer age, prior to his visit to Israel. by: Yuval Dror. verbatim: 19 years have passed, 19 years, and they still don't understand that f/s is not f/b. When Richard Stallman says them he means us. Stallman doesn't understand how the world doesn't realize most software we use ruin our lives. They ruin our lives, he says, because they make us betray the basic human morality: Help thy neighbor. That's why all non-f/s software, shut down all companies who write them, fire all employees that write them. verbatim: this sounds extreme, but stallman is far from being a rogue or insignificant in the flourishing western software industry. Tens of millions of people use today software written in his spirit. Induced by his ideology, thousands of people have developed the Linux os, today being the only alternative to Microsoft's Windows. Although Stallman's radical opinions sound eccentric, Stallman has a deep influence on the software industry, an influence which depth reminds the one of Microsoft's founder, Bill Gates. verbatim: Stallman, a 49 y/o American, is the founder and main preacher of the social-technological FSF (Free Software Foundation), urging to write and use f/s software. His speech is slow, and he emphasizes every word. Attempts to interject a question are completely ignored. People who met him say that the gaze in his green eyes is fixating; It doesn't let you break his gaze, doesn't leave you until he's sure you have understood the message he is trying to convey. His appearance is also out of the ordinary: He grows a thick beard and his hair reach his shoulders. next 4 paragraphs tell the printer driver anecdote, emphasizing the difference between f/s and f/b. next paragraph defines the 4 'freedoms' that qualify software as f/s software: Can be used for any purpose, can be modified (which implies access to the source code), can be redistributed and the ability to distribute modified versions. subtitle: All the wealth in the world. verbatim: When Stallman finish specifying these freedoms, he keeps quiet. At this stage the listener realizes that all of the software he uses every day (the Windows OS, the Word word processor, computer games and other pieces of software) are far from complying with the Stallman definition of f/s software. Stallman knows he will have to face disrespectful stares and dismissing gestures. next comes a discussion about why software should be f/s. The author explains that the cost of copying the software is negligible, but the world has found a way to sell software and hence software mustn't be copied. the following dialog is verbatim: Yuval: There's an economic problem with the model you're suggesting. Stallman: Economy shouldn't interest us. Business shouldn't interest us. The real issue is our way of life. We shouldn't let business issues determine our life's quality. Yuval: In practice you are urging people to copy software, to do a pirate act that effects the software companies economy. Stallman: Why does it hurt their economy? They claim that every time I copy software they loose money. They don't lose money - they just don't earn money. If they imagine they'll get money from me, but eventually don't - did they loose anything? There are people, like Bill Gates, that think they are entitled to all the wealth in this world. In their mind's eye they move the wealth to themselves, and complain that reality doesn't follow suit. Someone who sells mineral water in bottles can complain that I'm drinking tap water. He can get angry, because he lost money. The question is whether his anger is acceptable, socially logical. Yuval: You have recently said programmers don't need to be rich. Don't you think this kind of statements keep people away from you? Stallman: That may be, but I'm
article in nana
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi all New article in nana http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=51877sid=10 Doron -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+IWmGUa4lXxqoBCERAuF1AJ9WeVvjcdL2QWxVbzxgmAxhCJ4I7gCghSwR QpgXd/oXP3Wb2s7UvChiZ3Y= =/18Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On 2003-01-12 Oded Arbel wrote: Side note to Amir Tal: Isn't this what IGLU is all about - getting into heated discussions over simple issues ? ;-) ok, here goes :) du -sk * will ignore files/directories that start with a dot.. and these can sometimes be large too. (for example .ccache) So I ended up with a kludge like this: (trying to exclude the .. directory...) alias dus='du -sm * .[^.]* ..?* . | sort -n' = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing with low disk space
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 02:15:29PM +0200, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Oded Arbel wrote:
On Sunday 12 January 2003 10:57, Shoshannah Forbes wrote:
Is there any utility out there that can help me figure out what is
using all my HD space and what can be removed safely, without making a
mess?
An automated one ? not that I can recall.
but you can always use `du -Hs` to look at each directory's disk usage and see
where you waste all the space and then decide if you want to delete it.
My 2c:
du -scH /path/to/check/*
('H' is optional. It will somnetimes make the output more readable, but
sometimes 'k' or nothing at all will give you a better idea, because 32M
and 323 don't look very different)
or:
du -scH /ath/to/check/* |sort -n
Then you find the subdirs with most content, and see which of their
subdirs takes everything, with a command similar to the above.
I will add my own 2c:
I usually do
du /path/to/check | awk '$11'
or even
du /path/to/check | awk '$11' | sort -n
This will output you all the directories (including deep ones) with more
than 10MB (optionally sorted).
I usually don't sort, because on a large tree I don't have patience to
wait, and sort needs the entire input before it sorts (as opposed to awk).
A note about performance: Typically the first time you run 'du' (with
whatever switches) on a certain subtree it will read the file siszes of
all the files from the disk, and thus will take relatively long. But on
later runs you can generally expect for the relevant data (the inodes, in
this case) to remain in the cache, and thus any further runs on the same
tree or a subtree are expected to take a much shorter time.
This won't help much over NFS. On NFS, I usually do
du /path/to/check /tmp/somefile
and then do on it awk, sort -n, etc.
--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
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Didi
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Re: Ha'aretz article regarding RMS
On 2003-01-12 Arik Baratz wrote: Terminology: I use f/b for Free as in free beer or the Hebrew HINAM and f/s for Free as in free speech or HOFSHI in Hebrew. The word HOFSHI seems to be popular as the hebrew translation of 'free as in speech', but I think when people hear TOCHNA HOFSHIT they are likely to associate it with the price and not necessarily think about the freedom. In the sentence KNISA HOFSHIT it means free beer too. (I don't have a better alternative though..) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are just drawing the line somewhere else. I wholeheartedly agree with that - it's a line-drawing game .. I choose to draw the line beyond fair use because fair use is an established legal principle that would be a real pity to abolish. Does that mean that you draw the line wherever the law goes? I'm not talking about breaking the law, mind you. Just lobying for the law to change (a legitimate democratic right). Hamakor was founded to give all of these opinions a voice. Please don't distort what I said. I said I would be glad if Hamakor would provide an opportunity for everybody to express their views. I would object, and I wouldn't want to be a part of organization that would adopt a particular viewpoint as its official one. Leaving the nitpicking comment that any defined view is a particular one, I don't understand what you have against our current strategy, or why did you exclaim that first statement saying I will not be a part of it. It seems like our current Hamakor strategy is the same as you suggest. ... and I consider it gross verbal abuse to appeal to a generic, noble, universal notion of freedom, after defining it as the same as one's particular point of view, to brand me (or Linus, or whoever) this or that. Then talk to RMS about it. Did you see anyone from this list, or from Hamakor, doing that? And if they did, but that was under the opinions section? This is what bothers me so much in Stallman's view of the world. I am sorry, this should have gone into my response to Ira, but I hope that whoever bothers to read one of the postings will read both. I'm trying to trim the quoted sections to make readin easier. Like I said above - your problem is with RMS. Talk to me - what bothers you about Hamakor? Now, if you, as you claimed, do not want to be a part of any organization that pushes forward ideoligy, even if I agree with it, then I am very sorry to say that you will probably not want to be a member of Hamakor. As saddening as it is to me, on a personal level, I cannot change the society's goals because of that. It would be sad to me too, and if it comes to that I pledge here and now to be as supportive of Hamakor as I can from the outside. I don't need to be a member to do that. Thanks, but I'm not sure I see why it should. That last statement gets more emphesis by the fact that there is no organization, and defenitely no society, that are not powered by ideoligy. I am a member of at least one organization that, to my knowledge, has no ideological creed except that people should do their work as well as they can, ethically, and professionally. If one chooses to call this ideology, it is. It's a line-drawing game. I don't think I agee. Even when you say you want Hamakor to promote open source software based on technical merits - that's ideoligy. Maybe. It's an ideology of trying to make things work better. It is, IMHO, a very broad and inclusive ideology, as opposed to Stallman's. Not so. You are not trying to make Solaris work better. You are not trying to make Windows work better. You are also not saying well, Linux is better at some stuff and Solaris as better at other, and that's that. You are saying So I'll make Linux bettter. But why make Linux better if you don't believe, because of ideoligy, that it should be better? The thing that makes it so is the fact that you don't stop believing it just because people prove you wrong. Linux does not have SMP support as good as SCO, hspell is no competition to Word's Hebrew speller. And promoting free and open source software, in my mind, is working towards making Linux better, not arguing that one should use it even though it's worse because it will liberate you in some way, while taking away your freedom to use a 16-way SMP machine that you may really need to do the job. But why is it that you believe Linux *should* be better at 16-way SMP? Why not just recommend another OS for that task and leave it at that? The only reason I can think of is ideological. The problem is even more acute when products such as OpenOffice are discussed. These products are developed purely according to the commercial development model. OpenOffice can offer just two advantages over StarOffice: 1. 1. It is cheaper. 2. If Sun goes down, change license, want to charge more or discontinue the product altogether, you are not left out in the rain. This is, in fact, a purely technical argument, and has *nothing* at all with free software if free is used in Stallman's sense. When does an argument stop becoming practical and starts becoming ideological? This argument has absolutely nothing OpenOffice specific about it. But if I can apply it equally well to any software, without even knowing which software it is, doesn't it automatically become and ideological argument? This would work perfectly even
Re: article in nana
Doron Ofek wrote: Hi all New article in nana http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=51877sid=10 Bastards! They killed Gnu! They took the JPEG image of the Gnu from FSF site, converted it to GIF (!), and put it in the article! RMS put that as JPEG *INTENTIONALLY*: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/agnuhead.html Gif's Not Us !!! But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: RMS with a flute (halilit) his autograph (hatima) his personal ad (looking for a love) a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Tux Ben-Gurion (not the airport, but the ex-prime-minister) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A word of caution to buyers from Plonter
Hi People, I was looking for a good webcam Camera to use with Linux and GnomeMeeting (great program!), so I searched for a camera which has good sensors, and full Linux drivers. I found out that Philips PCVC740/PCVC750 and Logitech QuickCam Pro 3000 and 4000 are sharing the same drivers which got (almost) all the features as the Windows driver have. So I looked at Plonter web site and I saw QuickCam Pro with a code 4000, for 495 NIS, while Excelnet offered the 3000 for 701 NIS. At retails stores the price was between 599-700 NIS, so I thought Plonter was the cheapest one and I decided to call and order (you might want to look at their credit card tashlumim payment, something is fishy). Well, it seems Plonter web site is misleading (and I'm being polite here), and the 3000 or 4000 number that I saw, was their Internal code. The cam that they sell if called QuickCam Pro Web.. Looking at Logitech's web site http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm? page=products/productlistCRID=20countryid=25languageid=1 - reveals that there isn't such a beast, and there is only QuickCam Web which you can buy from retailers for 300-350 NIS... So, I just wanted to warn people from this store... Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article in nana
On Sunday 12 January 2003 15:52, Eli Marmor wrote: But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Note that the peace, love, linux logo is from the IBM linux PR campaign, and it appears right beneath the paragraph where RMS speaks of his dissatisfaction with IBM. quite ironic. -- Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: article in nana
We'll fix that to png, just for you :) -Original Message- From: Eli Marmor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: article in nana Doron Ofek wrote: Hi all New article in nana http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=51877sid=10 Bastards! They killed Gnu! They took the JPEG image of the Gnu from FSF site, converted it to GIF (!), and put it in the article! RMS put that as JPEG *INTENTIONALLY*: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/agnuhead.html Gif's Not Us !!! But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: RMS with a flute (halilit) his autograph (hatima) his personal ad (looking for a love) a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Tux Ben-Gurion (not the airport, but the ex-prime-minister) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article in nana
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Eli Marmor wrote: But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: RMS with a flute (halilit) That's a recorder, not a flute. flute is 'halil' (aka halil-tzad because of the way it is held) his autograph (hatima) his personal ad (looking for a love) a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Tux Ben-Gurion (not the airport, but the ex-prime-minister) -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re[2]: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: X Resources. Does it threat anybody? No? OK; Let's go on: There are several requirements that are critical for creating a good GUI. One of them is the ability to work against a working program, and not just a file. Well, this has nothing to do with the configuration file format itself. It's a communication protocol provided by the X/editres API (libXmu). But it's indeed very important for a configuration _programming interface_. Unfortunately, the X people didn't realize that the pathetic lack of standard configuration API in the Unix world that had driven them to create the Xresources infrastructure from the scratch was worth extracting it into a separate, X-independent API library. Of course, you need a bidirectional mapping (i.e. not only from the disk representation to the in-memory representation, but also vice- versa); Otherwise, the changes can't be translated to rules of configuration files. Right, and the lack of these features (actually, the lack of decent API providing them) distracted many even pure-X apps from solely using it; instead, they load/store their configs from customly-formatted .rc files. You need clear definitions; Not definitions that may start anywhere in the line, with any number of leading/trailing spaces/tabs/etc. that you never know which are part of the value and which are not, with leveling that is based on semi-XML directives (/directory /), with ambiguous comments, with ifdefs that you never know if the leveling that is hidden by them is really hidden - or only the rules inside those levels, with too many ways to say yes (e.g. tRuE, oN, falling back to the default, etc.) and so on. There are many other formatting issues that ease or harden the ability to develop a good GUI. GUI is important, but it's nothing compared to the API. I don't care about the specific format of the configuration _storage_. Let it be a plain ASCII or XML file or any binary one (not a propriate, of course). Do you care about the data storage format when comparing e.g. MySQL vs. PgSQL? Of course, not. Does it worry someone that the data format is binary? Of course, not. Well, a data dump (to an ASCII file) utility is a must - for the backup purposes etc, but that's all. I need the well-defined API and its C implementation. Whatever complicated/non-trivial format is choosen, the efforts of parsing it are spent only once. From there on, everything is simple. The GUI config tool will use the API, too. C++/Perl/Python/etc bindings are trivial. Look at CUPS. Nobody (except those involved in its development) cares about the format/structure of the CUPS config files. They provided the API. Period. Then somebody wrote the Qt/CUPS widget, and now any Qt application (read - programmer) get the whole selection of printing options provided by CUPS with zero efforts spent. Compare the situation with lpr friends. There is no API for parsing (let alone changing) the rather primitive /etc/printcap file format. And then come sysv lp, lprng,... each with its own config files and each with NO C API! As a result - how many non-cups-bound applications can you count which provide the list of printers present? Very, very few and far between. Even overloaded monsters like Netscape dare not implementing it - taking into account the variety of existing printing systems. People develop Open Source for their own fun. Or for their own use Why, it's not Open Source related. It's a common Unix malady - the absense of a kind of a centralized patronage (like W3C is for Web) during its development. As a result - the lack of well-thought and -implemented APIs for everyday's tasks. Configuration is just one of many. When there is a company (please don't force me to spell the name of Redmond's companies) behind the product, they have balls (sorry for the word...) and don't give a sh*t (sorry again) on their users, so they can replace formats whenever it is important for the evolution of their product. The Company-Which-Is-Not-To-Be-Named did just what X programmers did - developed a configuration API. And so Gnome developers did, BTW, with their quite decent GConf API. The only difference is that Microsoft happened to be a force behind an _OS_, while Xconsortium worried only about X applications and Gnome people worried only about Gnome applications, so the configuration API provided by X is of no use to non-X apps and GConf, as nice as it is, is useless to non-Gnome developers, KDE people did something for KDE apps only etc. And there was/is no father to worry about Unix as a whole, inspite of rich commercial vendors. That's the sad fact. Hence the current situation with multiple duplication of efforts with no satisfactory results. Many years ago, I developed a great GUI for X. You could take even a binary program, and change its screens, widgets, add more dialogs/forms/screens, etc. Fully WYSIWYG, of course.
OT: gif replacement (was Re: article in nana)
Hi, Sorry for being off-topic. On the same subject: I thought that the technical issues of moving from gif are solved for many years. However, a few days ago my brother prepared his homework, in which he had to build a small website. He got from the net some animated gifs, and I wanted to convert them, and chose to convert to .mng (Multi png). Well, it worked well as an img src, but not as a body background. At least not in mozilla 1.2. Does anyone have any idea? Maybe a format better than .mng as an animated gif replacement? And that will work on older browsers? Thanks, Didi On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 03:52:38PM +0200, Eli Marmor wrote: Doron Ofek wrote: Hi all New article in nana http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=51877sid=10 Bastards! They killed Gnu! They took the JPEG image of the Gnu from FSF site, converted it to GIF (!), and put it in the article! RMS put that as JPEG *INTENTIONALLY*: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/agnuhead.html Gif's Not Us !!! But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: RMS with a flute (halilit) his autograph (hatima) his personal ad (looking for a love) a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Tux Ben-Gurion (not the airport, but the ex-prime-minister) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re[2]: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Affecting a program at run-time? I don't want to affect crond at run-time or inetd at run-time or even Apache at run-time. I want to configure them, and run them with the same configuration. If you want to create an Apache Module that will listen to requests and with some authentication be able to configure the entire Apache at run-time and change it in the configuration file be my guest. Yes. And another one will do it for ssh. And yet others will do it for applications X, Y, and Z... duplicating the efforts. This is a short-sighted approach. I am content with reloading or restarting Apache whenever I make a chage. So some are content with restarting the whole computer (probably several times in row) just for installing an audio driver. Don't you see a parallel? What is OK for a home desktop is unacceptable for server. Reloading Apache serving static contents is no big deal, but if it's coupled with a DB machinery involving complicated lengthy transactions, this may be very serious. And how about restaring X server killing all your running apps just to alter the font path or bell volume? That why I suggested an abstraction. Something that will generate an Apache configuration. If you modify the abstraction using the abstraction-specific tools. If you modify the Apache configuration files directly, that may be lost after you use the abstraction again. Hence, this approach is wrong. Webmin, LinuxConf, YAST, DrakeConf, you name it. Huge duplication of efforts and _none_ of the above working properly. You need an API (abstraction) that will both generate AND parse the configuration. Moreover, the Apache itself MUST use this very API. And all other servers and applications. Throw in replication and remote access protocol and that will be the sysadmin's paradise... And no, I don't mind it sounds like Active Directory. Regards, Evgeny = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Yet another long post] Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does that mean that you draw the line wherever the law goes? That's part of it, but it also seems a reasonable place to draw a line, which I hope is why the law is what it is. After all, I have bought the CD legally, and I only want to listen to parts of it in sequence. I think it's fair. Others may think differently (and may go to jail for their principles). Just because their opinion differs from mine I don't brand them either criminals or traitors to the noble ideals of freedom. Leaving the nitpicking comment that any defined view is a particular one, I don't understand what you have against our current strategy, or why did you exclaim that first statement saying I will not be a part of it. It seems like our current Hamakor strategy is the same as you suggest. I am glad if it is. It is not so clear to me though, because, if you re-read the thread, there are voices that suggest a Stallmanist line as an official policy of Hamakor. All I did was saying that in my opinion it is narrow, divisive, and shouldn't happen. If it does, I'll have to consider what I should do. Does Hamakor have a problem with this? Did you see anyone from this list, or from Hamakor, doing that? Yes. And if they did, but that was under the opinions section? It was on this list. All of this list is opinions. However, there was an explicit opinion (that I respect) that my views were at the core of the Hamakor goals (or something like that), and that I simply had to make them widely known for that reason. Talk to me - what bothers you about Hamakor? The possibility that it will adopt Stallman's POV and start pointing fingers at, boycotting, and whatnot those (members or others) who are deemed traitors to freedom. But why make Linux better if you don't believe, because of ideoligy, that it should be better? I don't see where ideology fits in. I am happier with Linux rather than with Windows because it does work better to me, partly because of GNU and other tools that come with the system, partly because of the transparency that comes with Open Source, partly because it's cheaper, partly for other reasons. And it's still not perfect, so it should be better. And I don't use Windows because of the lack of useful tools and applications, because its protocols and formats are incompatible with anything else (a technical point, mind you), and most of all because of a really pityful interface. If it were technically good enough and worth the money, I'd use it happily. All of this is purely pragmatic, and I don't see anything remotely resembling ideology here. Of course, you can always say that trying to avoid ideology is also an ideology... But why is it that you believe Linux *should* be better at 16-way SMP? Why not just recommend another OS for that task and leave it at that? The only reason I can think of is ideological. Wrong. It well may be that Linux is much better than the other OS in many respects, and were it not for the scalability it would be more suitable for the task, so by eliminating the show-stopper of a scalability problem in Linux I will get a better overall solution. It may be more practical to do that than solve all the problems of the other OS. When does an argument stop becoming practical and starts becoming ideological? When you start branding Linus a traitor because he chooses BitKeeper as his revision control system because BitKeeper is not free. The argument like we'll have a problem if BitMover folds and/or Larry McVoy gets hit by a bus may be practical (or not, if there is a good enough answer to that; btw, often there is, there exist all sorts of schemes that solve the problem even for closed source software), but an argument like BitKeeper cannot be redistributed freely is not. Or when you force your system administrator to switch from qmail to an inferior MTA because qmail takes away freedom #3. Mind you, switching from Linux to Windows because Linux is distributed under a viral license is not a technical argument either. Oops, got caught preaching to the choir... Lets take qmail as an example. Sorry, I have never even tried to use qmail, and I cannot say what its deficiencies, strengths, license terms etc are, so I am out of my depth here. Although it seems significant to me that even a self-professed Stallmanist like Ira uses qmail, apparently choosing technical reasons over pure ideology. Anyway, I do think this is sort of arguing that my religion is better than yours or the other way around, which is precisely my point. I would only like to point out that there may be infinitely many situations where RMS, Ira, you, and myself will make the same choices and same decisions. In some cases we will do it for the same or similar reasons, because I do agree with a lot of what RMS (and you, and Ira) say. In other cases it will be a complete coincidence because we will do it for totally different reasons. Assuming you, like me,
99.6% idle 5.16 load
I have a box with RH 7.3 that behaves strangely. Sometimes (some say but I cannot confirm that on every saturday ) it reaches a very high load. Earlier they rebooted it but today I was checking it. It had 5.16 load and 99.6% idle time. What can be the cause ? What else should I check for this ? Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
Gabor Szabo wrote: I have a box with RH 7.3 that behaves strangely. Sometimes (some say but I cannot confirm that on every saturday ) it reaches a very high load. Earlier they rebooted it but today I was checking it. It had 5.16 load and 99.6% idle time. What can be the cause ? Weekly cron jobs? What else should I check for this ? Large I/O operations? Insuficient swap space? Insuficient memory? I'm just shooting in the dark here, for you don't say much about that system and what is running. Henry = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re[2]: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Evgeny Stambulchik wrote: Hence, this approach is wrong. Webmin, LinuxConf, YAST, DrakeConf, you name it. Huge duplication of efforts and _none_ of the above working properly. You need an API (abstraction) that will both generate AND parse the configuration. Moreover, the Apache itself MUST use this very API. And all other servers and applications. Throw in replication and remote access protocol and that will be the sysadmin's paradise... And no, I don't mind it sounds like Active Directory. 1. This means rewriting apache. Recall that apache is used not only on linux, but on hosts of other platforms. Some linux developers tend to be linux-centric, and ignore the fact that the same software needs to run on other platforms. 2. gnome (partially in 1.4, more so in 2.0) is a test to such a technology. Am I the only one who thinks a configuration daemon is bad? And anyway, I remind you that there is already a remote access protocol on linux that is quite powerful, and works very well. It also fits into the unix framework: rsh/ssh (not telnet: you cannot run commands remotely via telnet!) -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote about 99.6% idle 5.16 load: It had 5.16 load and 99.6% idle time. What can be the cause ? What else should I check for this ? If you have load 5 but no process is using CPU time, it is most likely that you have 5 processed in the D (uninterruptable sleep) state. Run ps aux and look for a D in the STAT column to confirm this hunch. D is a state a process is typically in when the kernel programmers found it hard to allow a process to die - such as while pages are swapped into memory, or in certain stages of NFS transactions. Normally a process is in the D state for a very short time, so you wouldn't notice it. But some kernel bugs cause processes to be stuck in D state, with you unable to kill them and them taking up load forever. Note that the load figure, in this case, is only fictional - the D processes do not actually impose any load on the machine (except memory waste, of course). A common reason for accumulating D processes like you describe (but I don't know if your setup fits this possibility) is that you mount (via NFS, Samba, etc.) a directory from another computer, and the other computer stops responding. Certain tasks which run periodically (such as updatedb, backup, etc.) can then hang (in the D state, sometimes) each time they are run. I hope at least some of my hunches are relevant and helpful ;) -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jan 12 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Cat rule #2: Bite the hand that won't http://nadav.harel.org.il |feed you fast enough. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, Evgeny Stambulchik wrote about Re[2]: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX): Of course, you need a bidirectional mapping (i.e. not only from the disk representation to the in-memory representation, but also vice- versa); Otherwise, the changes can't be translated to rules of configuration files. Right, and the lack of these features (actually, the lack of decent API providing them) distracted many even pure-X apps from solely using it; instead, they load/store their configs from customly-formatted .rc files. This is not the only problem with X resources... X resources provide a very specific model of configuration, with a very limited syntax. Looking at my ~/.ctwmrc (yes, ctwm is my window manager), ~/.emacs (900 lines of lisp :)), ~/.zshrc, etc., I can't imagine how any of those could be done using the X resources model. I mean, surely it could be done, like this: Zsh.zshrc.line1: Zsh.zshrc.line2: ... But this is obviously not what you suggest. I need the well-defined API and its C implementation. Whatever The Xt implementation of X resources was quite well-defined and powerful. There was a program called xresedit (or something like that... hmm, could it be that XFree86 dropped this??) to edit running applications' configuration on-the-fly (e.g., you could change the button colors on a running application ;)) Tcl/Tk has a much better (in my opinion) configuration paradigm. First, since Tcl is an interpreted language, configuration files could be written in that language and be very powerful (e.g., imagine your clock's color changing depending on the day of the week, and your background change according to the phase of the moon). If you wanted the config file to have a fixed structure so that a program could modify (not just read) it, you could have done it (just like XEmacs now does with the user options saved as Lisp). Then, Tcl/Tk had a send command (try 'man n send') in which you could execute Tcl expressions on another running applications. This could be used, for example, for configuring a running applications. I once had a program like that which let you change colors of widgets (and similar stuff) on running Tcl/Tk programs. Too bad Tcl/Tk didn't catch on, it was a very nice tool :( -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jan 12 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Unlike Microsoft, a restaurant will not http://nadav.harel.org.il |ask me to pay for food with a bug in it! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Hence, this approach is wrong. Webmin, LinuxConf, YAST, DrakeConf, you name it.
Huge duplication of efforts and _none_ of the above working properly. You need
an API (abstraction) that will both generate AND parse the configuration.
Moreover, the Apache itself MUST use this very API. And all other servers and
applications. Throw in replication and remote access protocol and that will be
the sysadmin's paradise... And no, I don't mind it sounds like Active Directory.
1. This means rewriting apache.
No. It means either a) {if the Apache style of config is considered the
best} extracting the relevant part of Apache into an independent library
or b) designing the config API from scratch and throwing away the old
cruft (which isn't a major part of the Apache codebase anyway).
Recall that apache is used not only on
linux, but on hosts of other platforms. Some linux developers tend to be
linux-centric, and ignore the fact that the same software needs to run on
other platforms.
I wholeheartedly agree that for such a base API to catch on, it must be
highly portable.
2. gnome (partially in 1.4, more so in 2.0) is a test to such a
technology.
As I wrote earlier, I in general like the GConf ideas, but it's bound to
Gnome (well, it's supposed to be used kinda standalone, but since it
further depends on about dozen of libraries which you never find on
non-Gnomified systems... and of course, linking a daemon like crond to ten
libraries just to parse its config is definitely an overkill).
Am I the only one who thinks a configuration daemon is bad?
Why is it bad (if correctly implemented)? And why the daemon is a must?
Think about embeded SQL. The backend could be a daemon (e.g. PostgreSQL),
but could also be a plain file (see SQLite). Basically, you just swap the
header files. Ideally, there is a backend-neutral wrapper layer with many
plugins. Administrating a standalone desktop? Configure it to use local
files for the config data storage and don't worry about daemons. Just as
/etc/hosts vs. named. A more complicated schemes including local caching
etc are possible, too.
And anyway, I remind you that there is already a remote access protocol on
linux that is quite powerful, and works very well. It also fits into the
unix framework: rsh/ssh
Fantastic. Ever wondered why people invented HTTP? Of course, these were
Windows freaks who didn't know how to use telnet. The unix framework
would be to ssh to the web server and run the browser there. Right? And
IMAP is completely obsolete in the unix framework, too: ssh to the mail
server and open inbox in vi. If rsh/ssh is the ultimate answer to the
remote management, then vi is the ultimate configuration GUI. Not?
Regards,
Evgeny
=
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the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
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Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: If you have load 5 but no process is using CPU time, it is most likely that you have 5 processed in the D (uninterruptable sleep) state. Run ps aux and look for a D in the STAT column to confirm this hunch. this sounds odd - a process in the 'D' state is in an uninterruptible wait on a resource. thus, it is not supposed to be in the 'ready' (or 'run') queue, and hence shouldn't be counted inside the 'load average' (which counts the number of processes in the 'ready' queue or the 'running' state, in the last X minutes). -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux(was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Nadav Har'El wrote: Of course, you need a bidirectional mapping (i.e. not only from the disk representation to the in-memory representation, but also vice- versa); Otherwise, the changes can't be translated to rules of configuration files. Right, and the lack of these features (actually, the lack of decent API providing them) distracted many even pure-X apps from solely using it; instead, they load/store their configs from customly-formatted .rc files. This is not the only problem with X resources... Sure. But my point is that even such a limited config interface has never existed at the base level of Unix system. A limited tool is better than no tool at all. Just imagine how many thousands of hours of programming/debugging could be saved if in libc (or in a separate lib - like libm for math stuff) there existed a simplistic API for dealing with INI-style config files! INI config files would be completely adequate for a vast majority of existing apps, including those that don't presently provide a configuration mechanism at all (e.g. why should I worry about aliasing cp to cp -i, ls to ls -F --color=auto etc in each and every shell separately instead of setting it in a fileutils config file, once and for ever?!). I need the well-defined API and its C implementation. Whatever The Xt implementation of X resources was quite well-defined and powerful. Not really. Why then literally no app uses Xresources for _storing_ prefs? Netscape's preferences.js would fit nicely into the Xresources syntax, for example. Some other advanced X apps (e.g. Nedit) started using the Xresources for preferences but then switched to a custom load/store API _although the format remained the same_! But again, you missed my point. Whatever nice or powerful it is, it's bound to X. Would anybody in the sane mind want to link crond or named to X libs (and which wouldn't work without opening a $DISPLAY)? There was a program called xresedit (or something like that... hmm, could it be that XFree86 dropped this??) editres. BTW, it always had misc problems with Motif/Lesstif apps (which became very severe with Motif-2.1 API, so that OpenMotif folks started putting a modified version of (parts of?) libXmu inside libXm - which created a bunch of other problems, but that's a completely different story). Regards, Evgeny = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Evgeny Stambulchik wrote:
Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Hence, this approach is wrong. Webmin, LinuxConf, YAST, DrakeConf, you name it.
Huge duplication of efforts and _none_ of the above working properly. You need
an API (abstraction) that will both generate AND parse the configuration.
Moreover, the Apache itself MUST use this very API. And all other servers and
applications. Throw in replication and remote access protocol and that will be
the sysadmin's paradise... And no, I don't mind it sounds like Active Directory.
1. This means rewriting apache.
No. It means either a) {if the Apache style of config is considered the
best} extracting the relevant part of Apache into an independent library
or b) designing the config API from scratch and throwing away the old
cruft (which isn't a major part of the Apache codebase anyway).
Recall that apache is used not only on
linux, but on hosts of other platforms. Some linux developers tend to be
linux-centric, and ignore the fact that the same software needs to run on
other platforms.
I wholeheartedly agree that for such a base API to catch on, it must be
highly portable.
2. gnome (partially in 1.4, more so in 2.0) is a test to such a
technology.
As I wrote earlier, I in general like the GConf ideas, but it's bound to
Gnome (well, it's supposed to be used kinda standalone, but since it
further depends on about dozen of libraries which you never find on
non-Gnomified systems... and of course, linking a daemon like crond to ten
libraries just to parse its config is definitely an overkill).
Am I the only one who thinks a configuration daemon is bad?
Why is it bad (if correctly implemented)? And why the daemon is a must?
Think about embeded SQL. The backend could be a daemon (e.g. PostgreSQL),
but could also be a plain file (see SQLite). Basically, you just swap the
header files.
/me thinks: how can one binary work with all the different backends...
Ideally, there is a backend-neutral wrapper layer with many
plugins. Administrating a standalone desktop? Configure it to use local
files for the config data storage and don't worry about daemons. Just as
/etc/hosts vs. named. A more complicated schemes including local caching
etc are possible, too.
Anyway, one thing you should look at is libc's nss (name service switch),
which allows selection in run-time of the name-resolution method for each
of the services. But this is a read-only configuration.
And anyway, I remind you that there is already a remote access protocol on
linux that is quite powerful, and works very well. It also fits into the
unix framework: rsh/ssh
Fantastic. Ever wondered why people invented HTTP? Of course, these were
Windows freaks who didn't know how to use telnet. The unix framework
would be to ssh to the web server and run the browser there. Right?
Hey: I specifically excluded telnet!
Anyway, http is a simplified ftp, not a simplified rsh.
And
IMAP is completely obsolete in the unix framework, too: ssh to the mail
server and open inbox in vi.
I actually access my imap account via ssh to the mail server ('ssh
mailserver /path/to/imapd') ...
If rsh/ssh is the ultimate answer to the
remote management, then vi is the ultimate configuration GUI. Not?
You seem to confuse usage and administration in the above examples.
It is a powerful remote administration tool that you should not break.
There is one thing you should keep in mind: GUI can't be automated. An
API, as nice as it is, still takes some effort to automate. If you want
something done via cron: you need a shell command.
Another thing to keep in mind: current package management tools are built
around files. A file cannot be part of two packages. Config files fit very
nicely into this scheme: there is a clear definition who is responsible
for each config file. If more than one package should change a certain
config file, then the package providing this file must provide the
(command-line) API to edit this file safely.
This modularity is another thing that has to be maintained. One thing that
has to be done in any such configuration scheme is to define domains
whose are in the responsibility of certain packages.
Another point: you mentioned cups as a good example of a package with a
clear configuration API (though it seems to require a certain daemon
listening on a certain port, IIRC).
There is one difference between a general configuration scheme and a
specific configuration scheme: the designers of cups's config API were
aaware of the meaning of every action: they knew what print will do,
etc.
But if you design a generic config API, you simply don't have the right
actions or verbs in advance: It seems that what you want is an API
that will expose all the actions that can be performed on the config of a
service, rather than a low-level API to edit the config of the service.
--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 09:36:53PM +0200, Nadav Har'El wrote: There was a program called xresedit (or something like that... hmm, could it be that XFree86 dropped this??) to edit running applications' configuration on-the-fly (e.g., you could change the button colors on a running application ;)) Is the following what you are referring to? $ dpkg -S /usr/X11R6/bin/editres xbase-clients: /usr/X11R6/bin/editres $ $ man editres editres(1x) NAME editres - a dynamic resource editor for X Toolkit applications SYNOPSIS editres [ toolkitoption ... ] DESCRIPTION editres is a tool that allows users and application developers to view the full widget hierarchy of any X Toolkit application that speaks the -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, guy keren wrote about Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load: If you have load 5 but no process is using CPU time, it is most likely that you have 5 processed in the D (uninterruptable sleep) state. Run ps aux and look for a D in the STAT column to confirm this hunch. this sounds odd - a process in the 'D' state is in an uninterruptible wait on a resource. thus, it is not supposed to be in the 'ready' (or 'run') queue, and hence shouldn't be counted inside the 'load average' (which counts the number of processes in the 'ready' queue or the 'running' state, in the last X minutes). And yet, according to my experience, in Linux it does get counted. Obviously it is not in the run queue, but perhaps the load does not count only the run queue. I don't know - if anybody here can volunteer to look at the kernel source, I'd be happy to know the answer to that riddle. (Oh, and Gabor, is my guess even correct? Do you have any D-state processes?) -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jan 12 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |In God we Trust -- all others must submit http://nadav.harel.org.il |an X.509 certificate. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 10:21:09PM +0200, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2003, guy keren wrote about Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load: If you have load 5 but no process is using CPU time, it is most likely that you have 5 processed in the D (uninterruptable sleep) state. Run ps aux and look for a D in the STAT column to confirm this hunch. this sounds odd - a process in the 'D' state is in an uninterruptible wait on a resource. thus, it is not supposed to be in the 'ready' (or 'run') queue, and hence shouldn't be counted inside the 'load average' (which counts the number of processes in the 'ready' queue or the 'running' state, in the last X minutes). And yet, according to my experience, in Linux it does get counted. Obviously it is not in the run queue, but perhaps the load does not count only the run queue. I don't know - if anybody here can volunteer to look at the kernel source, I'd be happy to know the answer to that riddle. I did, since it bothers me for a long time. It is indeed so, for a very long time (actually always - I checked 1.0, 1.2.12, 2.0.39, 2.2.23 and 2.4.20). Also, when you know what to look for, google is your best friend: Searching for 'load average TASK_UNINTERRUPTIBLE' returns, as the second result, an email from 1995 (by soemone named Rob Janssen) that says: 2. The processes counted toward the load average, but didn't consume CPU time. The load average on the still-working machine was 35. This is why I always apply the following patch: (and a patch to not count TASK_UNINTERRUPTIBLE tasks). Didi (Oh, and Gabor, is my guess even correct? Do you have any D-state processes?) -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jan 12 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |In God we Trust -- all others must submit http://nadav.harel.org.il |an X.509 certificate. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
culmus fonts in latest betas?
Hi I was trying to push the culmus fonts into distros, but it seems I didn't try hard enough. I can't find a culmus package or anything similar in the list of packages of nither mandrake beta not redhat beta. Anybody here with a number of useful bug reports that can help pushing it? (It is not just getting it into the distro, but also into the fontconfig aliases file, so it will be used by files by default, and other stuff) In debian there is already a culmus fonts package, thanks to Baruch Even. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Think about embeded SQL. The backend could be a daemon (e.g. PostgreSQL),
but could also be a plain file (see SQLite). Basically, you just swap the
header files.
/me thinks: how can one binary work with all the different backends...
man dlopen. Or read existing code. Since we talked about SQL, the first
thing that comes to my mind is UnixODBC (http://www.unixodbc.org/).
Ideally, there is a backend-neutral wrapper layer with many
plugins. Administrating a standalone desktop? Configure it to use local
files for the config data storage and don't worry about daemons. Just as
/etc/hosts vs. named. A more complicated schemes including local caching
etc are possible, too.
Anyway, one thing you should look at is libc's nss (name service switch),
which allows selection in run-time of the name-resolution method for each
of the services. But this is a read-only configuration.
Hmm, and in which way is it related to a generic configuration API? I used
the hosts/named example just to show how the same functionality can be
achieved both with and without a daemon - with applications not having a
slightest idea whether the NS answer comes from a remote server or /etc/hosts.
And anyway, I remind you that there is already a remote access protocol on
linux that is quite powerful, and works very well. It also fits into the
unix framework: rsh/ssh
Fantastic. Ever wondered why people invented HTTP? Of course, these were
Windows freaks who didn't know how to use telnet. The unix framework
would be to ssh to the web server and run the browser there. Right?
Hey: I specifically excluded telnet!
What's the principal difference here, for the heaven's sake?
Anyway, http is a simplified ftp, not a simplified rsh.
Exactly. So you answered yourself. When there is a remote data (HTML files
in the case of WWW) there are two ways for a user to access the data: 1)
login to the remote computer and run an application (web browser) there
and somehow display the application's interface back or 2) retrieve the
data to the local system and run the app locally (and send the modified
data back, if required, using the same protocol that was used for fetching
it). The second approach is called the client-server model. Shall I go
in depth proving that 2) is superior?
I actually access my imap account via ssh to the mail server ('ssh
mailserver /path/to/imapd') ...
No. What you're doing is tunneling the IMAP protocol via the ssh tty
session. Why you're doing so is quite beyond my understanding, though (a
firewall blocking the IMAP port? - but why not usual port forwarding that
ssh is so good at?). At the other end of the ssh pipe an IMAP-capable mail
reader is listening anyway.
If rsh/ssh is the ultimate answer to the
remote management, then vi is the ultimate configuration GUI. Not?
You seem to confuse usage and administration in the above examples.
No, it's you fail to realize that administration is a form of usage.
For a web browser application the data is HTML files. For a management
console, the data is config info.
It is a powerful remote administration tool that you should not break.
??
There is one thing you should keep in mind: GUI can't be automated.
Why did you jump at GUI? Whether I'm using Mozilla to browse the Net or
downloading a Mandrake ISO with wget the HTTP protocol comes handy. And
both Mozilla and wget could potentially use the same HTTP access API if
such a thing existed on all flavours of OS the two applications are
running. Same about IMAP: KMail (GUI) and fetchmail (GUI-less) both use it
instead of logging to the remote server via ssh. Same about config.
An API, as nice as it is, still takes some effort to automate.
Come on. The point is _unification_. If a device has ten screws, nobody
would deny it's more complex to deal with than a single one. But if each
of them is different in size/form... Yes, that's the current state of
affairs in the Unix world of configuration. A nice car with hundreds of
screws of different types. You have to learn how to use a few dozens of
different screwdrivers. For a few large polished screws you can buy an
electric screwdriver; however, 1) the electric tool, albeit fast, is very
rough and 2) once you started using the advanced tool, an attempt to
tighten one of the polished screws with a usual screwdriver risks the car
stop working. Imagined?
If you want something done via cron: you need a shell command.
Sorry, I lost you here completely. What did you try to say?
Another thing to keep in mind: current package management tools are built
around files. A file cannot be part of two packages. Config files fit very
nicely into this scheme: there is a clear definition who is responsible
for each config file.
The clear definition appears very dirty at a closer look. Ever tried
changing hostname of a multi-protocol server? The hostname pops up in a
dozen of different config files. Which package is
Re: culmus fonts in latest betas?
Anybody here with a number of useful bug reports that can help pushing it? (It is not just getting it into the distro, but also into the fontconfig aliases file, so it will be used by files by default, and other stuff) For this (at least in Red Hat case) you'll have to file an RFE... Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: gif replacement (was Re: article in nana)
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: Hi, Sorry for being off-topic. On the same subject: I thought that the technical issues of moving from gif are solved for many years. However, a few days ago my brother prepared his homework, in which he had to build a small website. He got from the net some animated gifs, and I wanted to convert them, and chose to convert to .mng (Multi png). Well, it worked well as an img src, but not as a body background. At least not in mozilla 1.2. Does anyone have any idea? Maybe a format better than .mng as an animated gif replacement? And that will work on older browsers? Web animations are Evil and Animated backgrounds even more so. Tray to extract the first image from the GIMP (or anyone in between) and use that. Regards, Shlomi Fish Thanks, Didi On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 03:52:38PM +0200, Eli Marmor wrote: Doron Ofek wrote: Hi all New article in nana http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=51877sid=10 Bastards!They killed Gnu! They took the JPEG image of the Gnu from FSF site, converted it to GIF (!), and put it in the article! RMS put that as JPEG *INTENTIONALLY*: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/agnuhead.html Gif's Not Us !!! But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: RMS with a flute (halilit) his autograph (hatima) his personal ad (looking for a love) a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Tux Ben-Gurion (not the airport, but the ex-prime-minister) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: gif replacement (was Re: article in nana)
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 03:07:16AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: Hi, Sorry for being off-topic. On the same subject: I thought that the technical issues of moving from gif are solved for many years. However, a few days ago my brother prepared his homework, in which he had to build a small website. He got from the net some animated gifs, and I wanted to convert them, and chose to convert to .mng (Multi png). Well, it worked well as an img src, but not as a body background. At least not in mozilla 1.2. Does anyone have any idea? Maybe a format better than .mng as an animated gif replacement? And that will work on older browsers? Web animations are Evil and Animated backgrounds even more so. Tray to extract the first image from the GIMP (or anyone in between) and use that. Personally, I agree. I use almost only lynx, so I don't need to suffer animations, and I usually think that websites that do not look ok on lynx are probably not worth my time. However, I am a bit dissapointed to find out _now_ that all the Burn all Gifs stuff is not possible, for at least some years to come. After all, gzip's latest version is from '93, so the reasons why we should burn all gifs are known and understood for some time now. BTW, for the record: From the two responds I got, it seems to me that the only way to make portable animations and not infringe copyrights is to create uncompressed gifs. Regards, Shlomi Fish Thanks, Didi On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 03:52:38PM +0200, Eli Marmor wrote: Doron Ofek wrote: Hi all New article in nana http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=51877sid=10 Bastards!They killed Gnu! They took the JPEG image of the Gnu from FSF site, converted it to GIF (!), and put it in the article! RMS put that as JPEG *INTENTIONALLY*: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/agnuhead.html Gif's Not Us !!! But at least, the Gnu is in a good company: Another images that were attached to the article, were: RMS with a flute (halilit) his autograph (hatima) his personal ad (looking for a love) a logo of sex, drugs and penguin (another type of love) Tux Ben-Gurion (not the airport, but the ex-prime-minister) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
