Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

"Nadav Har'El"  writes:

> Definitely not. They probably just took a country list that someone else
> compiled. E.g., perhaps they took a list from the United Nations:
>
>   http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49alpha.htm
>
> Or perhaps they took the official list of "country names" from ISO, the
> International Organization for Standardization?
>
>   http://www.iso.org/iso/english_country_names_and_code_elements
>
> As you can see, both lists officially list the "Occupied Palestenian
> Territory".

To this I'd add that technically such lists always refer to
"countries, dependencies, and territories" or some such. So inclusion
of the Palestinian Territories does not mean that someone allocated a
status of a country to them. I would not expect pedantic legalese to
be used in all cases by FOSS developers or community sites, and a
"Country" header does not sound unreasonable.

If you look at the lists (another relevant list is that of "country
code TLDs" that is quite similar to the ISO list) you will see that
there are weirder cases than PS.

-- 
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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 5, 2011, at 12:51 AM, Nadav Har'El wrote:

This reminds me of a very similar discussion held on Hamakor's mailing
list last year. It started with this mail, claiming that the author of
the Linux mint distribution hates Jews:


No, what started was that he made some inaccurate statments about the  
Israeli occupation of "Palestine" and asked that Linux Mint not be  
used in Israel or by Israeli's.


It had AFAIK nothing to do with any joke, fortune, etc. It was an  
outright request.





By comparison it would be like RMS asking that no one in Israel or any  
Israeli use any GNU software (which he has not).


Geoff.

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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[is123]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 00:38:18 +0300
Nadav Har'El  wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 04, 2011, is...@zahav.net.il wrote about "[somewhat OT]
> simple machine forums software update":
> > I noticed today the simple machine forums software that is used for many
> > tech bulletin boards and forums has a new country in the countries list:
> > 
> > "Palestinian Territory, Occupied"
> 
> Do you seriously think that the authors of that specific software sat down
> and compiled a list of all 200 or so countries, and had a political debate
> on which country to accept, and decided on the fate of this "Occupied
> Palestinian Territory" based on a serious debate of the merits of Israel's
> position and that of the Palestinian position?

No, but based on posts on the simplemachine forums I think it's reasonable
to believe somebody with an agenda made the addition, since there were
debates on exactly the subject you mentioned, on their forum.

The country list was touted as a new feature on one of the forums I read,
and this was the first time I saw this. I guess I don't get out enough.

> Definitely not. They probably just took a country list that someone else
> compiled. E.g., perhaps they took a list from the United Nations:
> 
>   http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49alpha.htm
> 
> Or perhaps they took the official list of "country names" from ISO, the
> International Organization for Standardization?
> 
>   http://www.iso.org/iso/english_country_names_and_code_elements

Thanks for those references, I was not aware of them.

> As you can see, both lists officially list the "Occupied Palestenian
> Territory". So this is definitely not some anti-Israeli decision by
> some rogue antisemite free software developers, but rather a very sensible
> decision by those developers to take a list from organizations (like the
> UN and ISO) which they thought were impartial and professional.
> 
> So please don't complain about this "simple machine forum" or Richard
> Stallman (!?). If you want to pick a fight, pick one with the UN and ISO.

There we disagree. I appreciate and accept your explanation that the
country list probably came from elsewhere. But that does not mean the
people hosting forums or using software can throw up their hands and claim
it's out of their control. Free software is about nothing if not about
taking responsibility for content. I say responsible people would not
accept such a designation for a place that isn't even a country, and the
fact they got the data from elsewhere does not absolve them from
responsibility for using it.

> > Anyway if you run a forum and use this software and object to the
> > propaganda you might want to make your opinion known.
> 
> Please don't you spread propaganda against the poor guys who write free
> software, and just need to get an impartial country list from somewhere.

Why is it propaganda when I object to something, but not propaganda when
they make baseless assertions? And really, how do you call these lists
impartial, especially after all the points you made! And why do you feel
people who make content available aren't responsible for the content?

> So again, pick your fight with the UN or ISO - or create an alternative
> country-list project (good luck walking out of that minefield...).

Point taken. I'll leave that to somebody else. But I remain free to object
in public when I see propaganda in public. Freedom is a two way street.

> Just don't insult the free software developers who use the existing lists.

It's not an insult. Everybody is responsible for what they put out there
and nobody can blame the other guy. It's reckless to take data from
anywhere and just start using it. Using it constitutes approval.

Thanks for your post, Nadav.

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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[Nadav Har'El]

On Mon, Jul 04, 2011, is...@zahav.net.il wrote about "Re: [somewhat OT] simple 
machine forums software update":
> I found there is no point arguing with people who put out propaganda so I
> decided the best way to deal with it is to make people aware of it, so they
> can stop using the software.  You could even call what I am suggesting a
> boycott.

Have you ever heard of "Innocent until proven guilty"?
Did you ever consider that these guys might have nothing against Israel,
and weren't even aware of this issue which they "inherited" from a ready-
made country list they used (see my previous mail ont he subject)?

It would only be fair to email them *before* you spread rumors about their
anti-Israeli-ness and ask people to boycott them.

> It's pretty obvious that the people who added that inflammatory,
> false language did it for a reason and it would be silly to think they
> would be open to discussion. So I have no intention wasting my time with

Again, I gave a very reasonable explanation why it is likely that they
added this "country" without *any* deliberate anti-Israeli intentions.

This reminds me of a very similar discussion held on Hamakor's mailing
list last year. It started with this mail, claiming that the author of
the Linux mint distribution hates Jews:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discussions@hamakor.org.il/msg04091.html
and a pointer to the following "proof":

http://whatsup.co.il/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=53463&highlight=mint&sid=a298074a5426893e705c6cf80be8d472
People started competing on how much hate and disinformation they can
spread on Linux Mint.

But then I gave the following explanation in Hebrew:

http://www.mail-archive.com/discussions@hamakor.org.il/msg04099.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/discussions@hamakor.org.il/msg04119.html

of why this was no deliberate anti-Israeli remark by Linux Mint, but rather,
a rather anachronistic joke from 1982 (about the first Israel-Lebanon war)
which found itself into the "fortunes" files of many Linux distributions,
including Linux Mint. The Linux Mint guy probably never even saw this joke,
and even if he did, he probably didn't understand it (depending so much
on obscure 1982 facts that hardly anyone but history buffs remember today).


-- 
Nadav Har'El|  Tuesday, Jul  5 2011, 3 Tammuz 5771
n...@math.technion.ac.il |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The trouble with political jokes is they
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |get elected.

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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[Mordecha Behar]

> It's pretty obvious that the people who added that inflammatory,
> false language did it for a reason and it would be silly to think they
> would be open to discussion.
>

Yes, it's obvious. They couldn't have possibly done it out of ignorance.
(See Nadav's rather lengthy and better-informed email)

Why must people always assume that anything said or done is a personal
affront to them?
Anybody who lives in this country knows how everything is a political
debate.
Can we please, *please* keep software out of it? There really is no need to
open this particular can of worms.
I tried hinting at that in my previous email, but I guess the sarcasm got
lost somewhere along the way.
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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[Nadav Har'El]

On Mon, Jul 04, 2011, is...@zahav.net.il wrote about "[somewhat OT] simple 
machine forums software update":
> I noticed today the simple machine forums software that is used for many
> tech bulletin boards and forums has a new country in the countries list:
> 
> "Palestinian Territory, Occupied"

Do you seriously think that the authors of that specific software sat down
and compiled a list of all 200 or so countries, and had a political debate
on which country to accept, and decided on the fate of this "Occupied
Palestinian Territory" based on a serious debate of the merits of Israel's
position and that of the Palestinian position?

Definitely not. They probably just took a country list that someone else
compiled. E.g., perhaps they took a list from the United Nations:

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49alpha.htm

Or perhaps they took the official list of "country names" from ISO, the
International Organization for Standardization?

http://www.iso.org/iso/english_country_names_and_code_elements

As you can see, both lists officially list the "Occupied Palestenian
Territory". So this is definitely not some anti-Israeli decision by
some rogue antisemite free software developers, but rather a very sensible
decision by those developers to take a list from organizations (like the
UN and ISO) which they thought were impartial and professional.

So please don't complain about this "simple machine forum" or Richard
Stallman (!?). If you want to pick a fight, pick one with the UN and ISO.

> Anyway if you run a forum and use this software and object to the
> propaganda you might want to make your opinion known.

Please don't you spread propaganda against the poor guys who write free
software, and just need to get an impartial country list from somewhere.

The Occupied Palestenian Territory isn't even the most shocking country
name in the UN's list. Consider also "Taiwan, Provice of China", where
Taiwan has *NOT* been a part of mainland China for 60 years. Or consider
the ridiculous name "Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" in the list of English country
names, where "Jamahiriya" isn't even an English word (it isn't even a real
Arabic word - it's a mixture of the words for "Together" and "Republic"
coined by Qaddafy). Or think of the poor Macedonians, whose country the
UN calls (by the insistance of the Greeks) by the ridiculously long name
"The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Or consider the three countries,
Zaire, North Korea and Laos, three of the countries with the poorest and
most oppressed people of the world, whose leaders had the audacity to make
the UN list the word "Democratic" in their name ("The Democratic Republic of
the Congo", "Democratic People's Republic of Korea", and "Lao People's
Democratic Republic", respectively).

So again, pick your fight with the UN or ISO - or create an alternative
country-list project (good luck walking out of that minefield...).
Just don't insult the free software developers who use the existing lists.


-- 
Nadav Har'El|  Tuesday, Jul  5 2011, 3 Tammuz 5771
n...@math.technion.ac.il |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The trouble with being punctual is that
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |nobody is there to appreciate it.

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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[is123]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 00:08:55 +0300
Mordecha Behar  wrote:

> You should send an email to RMS asking his opinion about it.
> Make sure he replies as president of the FSF so people can argue about his
> views in the future.

No doubt, just as all those respectful and well written emails to Stallman
were so successful, saved us all from pointless arguments, and in the end
got him to give his speech at a local university just as everyone had
hoped.

> Although, a level-headed email to the SMF dev team requesting
> clarification might be a lot more useful, and save us all from pointless
> arguments.

Your idea is so simple, I'm surprised I didn't think of it. Actually, I
found there is no point arguing with people who put out propaganda so I
decided the best way to deal with it is to make people aware of it, so they
can stop using the software. You could even call what I am suggesting a
boycott. It's pretty obvious that the people who added that inflammatory,
false language did it for a reason and it would be silly to think they
would be open to discussion. So I have no intention wasting my time with
them. But, I thought it could be productive to let people on this list
know, since the implication is that everybody who lives in this country is
guilty of occupation, war crimes, etc.

I don't know about you, but I never occupied a foreign terrority (although
I feel like it living here sometimes) and never oppressed anybody. So I
resent the insinuation. If you don't, then good for you.

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Re: [somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[Mordecha Behar]

You should send an email to RMS asking his opinion about it.
Make sure he replies as president of the FSF so people can argue about his
views in the future.

Although, a level-headed email to the SMF dev team requesting clarification
might be a lot more useful, and save us all from pointless arguments.

On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 11:50 PM,  wrote:

> I noticed today the simple machine forums software that is used for many
> tech bulletin boards and forums has a new country in the countries list:
>
> "Palestinian Territory, Occupied"
>
> I didn't realize Palestine was a country and I thought the Israelis left
> when they created the PA, if so, who is occupying it? But I often get
> confused about politics so maybe I missed some important fact. Or maybe the
> UN voted and made Palestine a country and the Israeli Army moved its
> headquarters and the PM's mansion to Ramallah and they just haven't
> publicized it much yet.
>
> I wonder if Richard Stallman will get a copy of the forum software for the
> FSF website.
>
> Anyway if you run a forum and use this software and object to the
> propaganda you might want to make your opinion known.
>
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[somewhat OT] simple machine forums software update

[is123]

I noticed today the simple machine forums software that is used for many
tech bulletin boards and forums has a new country in the countries list:

"Palestinian Territory, Occupied"

I didn't realize Palestine was a country and I thought the Israelis left
when they created the PA, if so, who is occupying it? But I often get
confused about politics so maybe I missed some important fact. Or maybe the
UN voted and made Palestine a country and the Israeli Army moved its
headquarters and the PM's mansion to Ramallah and they just haven't
publicized it much yet.

I wonder if Richard Stallman will get a copy of the forum software for the
FSF website.

Anyway if you run a forum and use this software and object to the
propaganda you might want to make your opinion known.

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Re: total uptime between shutdowns

[Steve G.]

What package does it come in - procps, rwho or both?

2011/7/4 Tom Rosenfeld 

>
> Thanks I'll give it a try when I have some time to play.
>
>
>
> 2011/7/4 Ricardo F 
>
>>  Hello,
>>
>>You can use "tuptime" http://sourceforge.net/projects/tuptime/ it
>> works well for count time between restarts and the number of total restarts.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
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>>
>
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>


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Re: total uptime between shutdowns

[Tom Rosenfeld]

Thanks I'll give it a try when I have some time to play.



2011/7/4 Ricardo F 

>  Hello,
>
>You can use "tuptime" http://sourceforge.net/projects/tuptime/ it works
> well for count time between restarts and the number of total restarts.
>
>
> Regards
>
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Re: total uptime between shutdowns

[Ricardo F]

Hello,
   You can use "tuptime" http://sourceforge.net/projects/tuptime/ it works well 
for count time between restarts and the number of total restarts.

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Re: Hebrew fonts on digital readers

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 4, 2011, at 11:54 AM, Nitzan Brumer wrote:


Buying the kindle: 139 $
Shipping to Israel: 40$ (no, you can not change that, fedex is  
mandatory)
Fedex Israel fees: 150 NIS (they charge the vat, handling, moving,  
storage or whatever)


So, at the end buying a kindle costs around 760 Nis which is still  
140NIS cheaper than the eVrit,


The Kindle 3 has a tiny QWERTY keyboard, while the eVrit has a full  
touch screen. Not the same at all.


Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: Hebrew fonts on digital readers

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 4, 2011, at 11:02 AM, Stan Goodman wrote:
900 NIS? Double the price of a Kindle. If the cottage-cheese folks  
could be interested in this, the price would surely come down.




Where exactly can I get a Kindle with a full touch screen for 450 NIS?  
Ok, the nook version 2 has one and is only $139, but that's in the US  
and they don't sell internationally.


Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: Hebrew fonts on digital readers

[Nitzan Brumer]

Buying the kindle: 139 $
Shipping to Israel: 40$ (no, you can not change that, fedex is mandatory)
Fedex Israel fees: 150 NIS (they charge the vat, handling, moving, storage
or whatever)

So, at the end buying a kindle costs around 760 Nis which is still 140NIS
cheaper than the eVrit, but far from being double.

*Nitzan Brumer*
Blog: N2b.org  | Skype: nitzanzb

My profiles: [image: Facebook]  [image:
Twitter]  [image:
LinkedIn]
 [image: Flickr]  [image:
foursquare]



On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Stan Goodman wrote:

> On 07/04/2011 04:31 AM, Steve G. wrote:
>
>> FWIW, this is not the same discussion as far as I am concerned.
>>
>> The previous discussion was about what reader is best for Hebrew book.
>> This one is about how to read Hebrew on a Kindle 2. I am not going to buy
>> eVrit, nor any book with DRM on it, if I can help it.
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 11:01 PM, geoffrey mendelson <
>> geoffreymendel...@gmail.com 
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>Didn't we this discussion a couple of months ago? From what I can
>>see nothing has changed. I think in the end the person asking
>>bought an eVrit, which is really a PanDigital Memo with Hebrew
>>support and Steimatzky DRM built in.
>>
>>Are they still 900 NIS?
>>
>>Geoff.
>>
>>  900 NIS? Double the price of a Kindle. If the cottage-cheese folks could
> be interested in this, the price would surely come down.
>
> --
> Stan Goodman
> Qiryat Tiv'on
> Israel
>
>
>
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Re: Hebrew fonts on digital readers

[Stan Goodman]

On 07/04/2011 04:31 AM, Steve G. wrote:

FWIW, this is not the same discussion as far as I am concerned.

The previous discussion was about what reader is best for Hebrew book. 
This one is about how to read Hebrew on a Kindle 2. I am not going to 
buy eVrit, nor any book with DRM on it, if I can help it.


On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 11:01 PM, geoffrey mendelson 
mailto:geoffreymendel...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Didn't we this discussion a couple of months ago? From what I can
see nothing has changed. I think in the end the person asking
bought an eVrit, which is really a PanDigital Memo with Hebrew
support and Steimatzky DRM built in.

Are they still 900 NIS?

Geoff.

900 NIS? Double the price of a Kindle. If the cottage-cheese folks could 
be interested in this, the price would surely come down.


--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Shachar Shemesh]

On 03/07/11 08:28, Arie Skliarouk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 08:02, shimi  > wrote:
>
> If you want, prior to calling them, to combat them with their own
> weapon, thankfully there's a UDP protocol that probably no ISP
> would want to degrade; Try switching to port 53 :-)
>
>
> I think that would not work as I observe frequent name server errors
> at exactly same periods (I am using Google's free DNS servers 8.8.8.8
> and 8.8.4.4). Hmm, need to switch to the local DNS servers...
If that's the case, then your implied accusation, that they are treating
traffic differently based on protocol, might actually be false. Have you
tried big ping packets (size > 100)? You can send them using "ping -s 256".

If that's the case, then it's "business as usual", and TCP packets
probably have the exact same problems.

As for why communication over the VPN seems slower - it might be that
you have not lowered the MTU of connections going over the VPN link. If
that's the case, packets get fragmented, and a single TCP packet turn
into two UDP packets. If that happens, the chances of a drop are
doubled, which means that the chances of a retransmission are doubled
too. Try to make sure that the MTU of the TUN interface is lower than
the MTU of the actual interface where packets are really sent (ppp0?),
and that there is a firewall rule to squash the MSS to the MTU.

Shachar

-- 
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Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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