RE: suse 7.1
I don't think he downloaded the commercial version - that shouldn't be available for download. The live version is only available as an iso image AFAIK so I will rule out that possibility also. I also downloaded SuSE 7.1 and it was very large. The main reason for that is that SuSE packages on the CD are named in DOS 8.3 file name format. To maintain the original package name with full description of the version etc they have a directory with symbolic links to the pachkages. The directory name if full_names and by downloading it you actually downloaded the entire distro twice, because the ftp client doesn't realize it's just symbolic links (or the mirror maintainer made this mistake also...). The first thing is to delete the full_names directory. I'm pretty sure the installation doesn't look in there and doesn't need this directory at all. Then, delete also tons of docs that come with SuSE in German, French and Italian. I can't promise you that it will now fit on 1 CD - because it still looks big after it all and our CD writer just died on us (Merphy's law) and I can't test it. Let me know if you have any luck. Mike, the SuSE 7.1 have 3 versions: 1. Commercial - thats the 3GB one - which is not intended to download and install (unless you got lots of time and lots of bandwidth) - it's the mirror. 2. Live version - this version is non installable SuSE - which means - you put the cd and run Linux from it - all the files that it needs to create are written as actual temporary files on the hard disk (you don't need even Linux partition). This is just to "show" the Linux to people and maybe play with it a bit. 3. Evaluation - this is the short version which doesn't include lots of stuff (which will be un-necessary to some people). Once you install it - you can "complete" the installation with the Yast - and point it to a mirror of SuSE. I haven't seen any "evaluation" version of 7.1 - only "live" ones... Hetz On Monday 02 April 2001 09:59, mike ray wrote: The suse 7.1 is more that 3 GB of files, which files should i download, if i download everything how do i set them on the cd`s ?? Michael W Ray IT Manager * G-Connect - Helping ISPs to differentiate www.g-connect.com POB 2200, Herzlyia B, 46120, Israel mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel : + 972 9 960 1130 Mobile : + 972 58 636 545 * Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"; name="Attachment: 1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: suse 7.1
Actually, in addition to the LiveEval and the Eval versions SuSE has 2 commercial versions, neither of which should be available as ISO images - the personal and professional. All the packages of all the distros (or, in short, the whole professional 6-CD (I think) package library) is on their site wide open, but it's in no way intended to be stored on one CD unless you know exactly which packages constitute the 1-CD personal [commercial] edition and reconstruct it from the contents of their site. This should be time-consuming enough for mostly anyone on this list to justify paying them the 35$ or so that the personal CD costs. Don't forget that our time is worth money, and fiddling with this kind of much is not what I regard as educational recreation. In short - save your time and do what I do - wait for the evaluation-7.1 that will appear shortly, dump the whole 3 Gigs on a DVD-RAM, or just buy the Personal. Cheers. ---= Miki Shapiro =-- ---= Cell: (+972)-56-322433 = ---= ICQ: 3EE853 =--- ---= Windows Programmer in Rehab =--- - "If at first you don't succeed... .. Skydiving is probbably not for you." On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Udi Kalifon wrote: I don't think he downloaded the commercial version - that shouldn't be available for download. The live version is only available as an iso image AFAIK so I will rule out that possibility also. I also downloaded SuSE 7.1 and it was very large. The main reason for that is that SuSE packages on the CD are named in DOS 8.3 file name format. To maintain the original package name with full description of the version etc they have a directory with symbolic links to the pachkages. The directory name if full_names and by downloading it you actually downloaded the entire distro twice, because the ftp client doesn't realize it's just symbolic links (or the mirror maintainer made this mistake also...). The first thing is to delete the full_names directory. I'm pretty sure the installation doesn't look in there and doesn't need this directory at all. Then, delete also tons of docs that come with SuSE in German, French and Italian. I can't promise you that it will now fit on 1 CD - because it still looks big after it all and our CD writer just died on us (Merphy's law) and I can't test it. Let me know if you have any luck. Mike, the SuSE 7.1 have 3 versions: 1. Commercial - thats the 3GB one - which is not intended to download and install (unless you got lots of time and lots of bandwidth) - it's the mirror. 2. Live version - this version is non installable SuSE - which means - you put the cd and run Linux from it - all the files that it needs to create are written as actual temporary files on the hard disk (you don't need even Linux partition). This is just to "show" the Linux to people and maybe play with it a bit. 3. Evaluation - this is the short version which doesn't include lots of stuff (which will be un-necessary to some people). Once you install it - you can "complete" the installation with the Yast - and point it to a mirror of SuSE. I haven't seen any "evaluation" version of 7.1 - only "live" ones... Hetz On Monday 02 April 2001 09:59, mike ray wrote: The suse 7.1 is more that 3 GB of files, which files should i download, if i download everything how do i set them on the cd`s ?? Michael W Ray IT Manager * G-Connect - Helping ISPs to differentiate www.g-connect.com POB 2200, Herzlyia B, 46120, Israel mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel : + 972 9 960 1130 Mobile : + 972 58 636 545 * Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"; name="Attachment: 1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
suse 7.1
Title: suse 7.1 The suse 7.1 is more that 3 GB of files, which files should i download, if i download everything how do i set them on the cd`s ?? Michael W Ray IT Manager * G-Connect - Helping ISPs to differentiate www.g-connect.com POB 2200, Herzlyia B, 46120, Israel mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel : + 972 9 960 1130 Mobile : + 972 58 636 545 *
Re: suse 7.1
Mike, the SuSE 7.1 have 3 versions: 1. Commercial - thats the 3GB one - which is not intended to download and install (unless you got lots of time and lots of bandwidth) - it's the mirror. 2. Live version - this version is non installable SuSE - which means - you put the cd and run Linux from it - all the files that it needs to create are written as actual temporary files on the hard disk (you don't need even Linux partition). This is just to "show" the Linux to people and maybe play with it a bit. 3. Evaluation - this is the short version which doesn't include lots of stuff (which will be un-necessary to some people). Once you install it - you can "complete" the installation with the Yast - and point it to a mirror of SuSE. I haven't seen any "evaluation" version of 7.1 - only "live" ones... Hetz On Monday 02 April 2001 09:59, mike ray wrote: The suse 7.1 is more that 3 GB of files, which files should i download, if i download everything how do i set them on the cd`s ?? Michael W Ray IT Manager * G-Connect - Helping ISPs to differentiate www.g-connect.com POB 2200, Herzlyia B, 46120, Israel mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel : + 972 9 960 1130 Mobile : + 972 58 636 545 * Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255"; name="Attachment: 1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
suse 7.1 is released to ftps
Hi Just for your information, SuSE 7.1 is released in the ftps, finally. You can upgrade through the net (currently doing it). I don't see any evluation-cd iso (non-live) right now. Will probably (hopefully) come soon. Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: can't install SUSE 7.1
Hi.
But how I will run it inside VMWare then ?
I need both (NT AND Linux) systems running simultaneous.
And NT is Master.
Is there another way to do this ?
-Original Message-
From: Schlomo Schapiro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 8:07 AM
To: Felix Shvaiger
Cc: Israeli Linux users list
Subject: Re: can't install SUSE 7.1
Hi,
try installing it on the Laptop outside of VMWare. It won't touch your
installed system ("LIVE-Evaluation") except to put a 100MB file for your
home dir.
Actually, the SuSE Live CDs are a great piece of Linux to show off to
people :-)
Schlomo
PS: Maybe it's a VMWare problem ?
On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, Felix Shvaiger wrote:
Hi, All.
The configuration is:
Toshiba Tecra 8100 laptop
Pentium III 700MHz
256M RAM
S3 Savage/MX
Windows NT 4
VmWare 2.0.2
I try to install from CD (burned from
http://download.sourceforge.net/pub/mirrors/suse/suse/i386/live-eval-7.1/liv
eeval_en.iso)
It hangs after
SuSE Linux 7.1 LiveEval
...Bla...Bla...Bla...
boot:
Loading initrd...
Have someone any experience with it ?
Any suggestion ?
On another computer (desktop, without VnWare) it works
=
Felix A. Shvaiger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Schlomo Schapiro
Computation Authority
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Tel: ++972 / 2 / 65-84404
Fax: 65-27349
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW: http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/~schapiro
=
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RE: can't install SUSE 7.1
Get a 2nd computer. Or run NT inside of VMWare running on Linux (supposed
to work faster that way, anyway).
Schlomo
On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Felix Shvaiger wrote:
Hi.
But how I will run it inside VMWare then ?
I need both (NT AND Linux) systems running simultaneous.
And NT is Master.
Is there another way to do this ?
-Original Message-
From: Schlomo Schapiro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 8:07 AM
To: Felix Shvaiger
Cc: Israeli Linux users list
Subject: Re: can't install SUSE 7.1
Hi,
try installing it on the Laptop outside of VMWare. It won't touch your
installed system ("LIVE-Evaluation") except toput a 100MB file for your
home dir.
Actually, the SuSE Live CDs are a great piece of Linux to show off to
people :-)
Schlomo
PS: Maybe it's a VMWare problem ?
On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, Felix Shvaiger wrote:
Hi, All.
The configuration is:
Toshiba Tecra 8100 laptop
Pentium III 700MHz
256M RAM
S3 Savage/MX
Windows NT 4
VmWare 2.0.2
I try to install from CD (burned from
http://download.sourceforge.net/pub/mirrors/suse/suse/i386/live-eval-7.1/liv
eeval_en.iso)
It hangs after
SuSE Linux 7.1 LiveEval
...Bla...Bla...Bla...
boot:
Loading initrd...
Have someone any experience with it ?
Any suggestion ?
On another computer (desktop, without VnWare) it works
=
Felix A. Shvaiger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Schlomo Schapiro
Computation Authority
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Tel: ++972 / 2 / 65-84404
Fax: 65-27349
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW: http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/~schapiro
--
Schlomo Schapiro
Computation Authority
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Tel: ++972 / 2 / 65-84404
Fax: 65-27349
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW: http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/~schapiro
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
can't install SUSE 7.1
Hi, All. The configuration is: Toshiba Tecra 8100 laptop Pentium III 700MHz 256M RAM S3 Savage/MX Windows NT 4 VmWare 2.0.2 I try to install from CD (burned from http://download.sourceforge.net/pub/mirrors/suse/suse/i386/live-eval-7.1/liv eeval_en.iso) It hangs after SuSE Linux 7.1 LiveEval ...Bla...Bla...Bla... boot: Loading initrd... Have someone any experience with it ? Any suggestion ? On another computer (desktop, without VnWare) it works = Felix A. Shvaiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: can't install SUSE 7.1
Hi,
try installing it on the Laptop outside of VMWare. It won't touch your
installed system ("LIVE-Evaluation") except to put a 100MB file for your
home dir.
Actually, the SuSE Live CDs are a great piece of Linux to show off to
people :-)
Schlomo
PS: Maybe it's a VMWare problem ?
On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, Felix Shvaiger wrote:
Hi, All.
The configuration is:
Toshiba Tecra 8100 laptop
Pentium III 700MHz
256M RAM
S3 Savage/MX
Windows NT 4
VmWare 2.0.2
I try to install from CD (burned from
http://download.sourceforge.net/pub/mirrors/suse/suse/i386/live-eval-7.1/liv
eeval_en.iso)
It hangs after
SuSE Linux 7.1 LiveEval
...Bla...Bla...Bla...
boot:
Loading initrd...
Have someone any experience with it ?
Any suggestion ?
On another computer (desktop, without VnWare) it works
=
Felix A. Shvaiger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Schlomo Schapiro
Computation Authority
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Tel: ++972 / 2 / 65-84404
Fax: 65-27349
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW: http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/~schapiro
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Then SUSE does not have a site from which one can download up to date packages? That + 2.5 months for releasing the ISOs makes me wonder whether they are not wrong with their marketing strategy. I wonder what their rating among the other distros is. How many SUSE users do we have? Ofcourse they have a site to download all the updates (if I understood you correctly?), and you can do it automatically with their Yast/Yast2 As fot their market share - in europe - their the biggest one. None of the other distributions can compete with them (and thats also according to IDC) Hetz I wonder what would Oren have to say about comparing distros couple of months after (if) he will make his move. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hello Shaul On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Shaul Karl wrote: I wonder what would Oren have to say about comparing distros couple of months after (if) he will make his move. FYI, I've used several distros already, and I've seen the installation of ALL the known distros (suse,rh,mdk,deb,slack,caldera). I don't know what my taste in distros has to do with this discussion.. Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
As soon as I can find the ISO and dirs on the net I'll make a local mirror on schapiro.org. Schlomo On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: Does any1 has this new release of SuSE? I would like to get a copy of it, if it's possible. Suse, like in their last release doesn't hurry to put an ISO out for download. -- Schlomo Schapiro Computation Authority Hebrew University of Jerusalem Tel: ++972 / 2 / 65-84404 Fax: 65-27349 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/~schapiro = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
--msE2B10F8EA900A9C67A7FB796 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dunno about the driver, I remember trying hard and for long time, to find an appropriate driver, reading a lot, and achieving nothing. Also, their driver was not mentioned in the Printing HOWTO. Oren Held wrote: Hello Noam 1. I'm sure suse didn't create this driver by themselves. I believe that what it uses is what I use for my hp720 - pnm2ppa. it's a driver made by someone not related to suse, you can use it with any distro. 2. yast is good indeed. but it's not free and it has a stupid license as far as I understood. I prefer a GPLed program. Cya, Oren. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: I know it's very annoying. And it makes me mad also, but I have two reasons I'm sticking with it for right now: 1. It has a driver for HP printers I couldn't find anywhere else, that supports color on my HP895CXI. 2. I got used to it's configuration methods, and where the files sit. Oren Held wrote: Hello Noam I didn't even know it's out.. hmmm.. the just cause me hate them.. I really want to move to deb/slack.. I think I'll do it in my next vacation. I'm not having fun using such a commercial distro. Cya, Oren. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: Does any1 has this new release of SuSE? I would like to get a copy of it, if it's possible. Suse, like in their last release doesn't hurry to put an ISO out for download. -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 --msE2B10F8EA900A9C67A7FB796 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIHswYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIHpDCCB6ACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC BbEwggKAMIIB6aADAgECAgMEDQIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgZIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUw EwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEPMA0GA1UEChMGVGhh d3RlMR0wGwYDVQQLExRDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTZXJ2aWNlczEoMCYGA1UEAxMfUGVyc29uYWwg RnJlZW1haWwgUlNBIDIwMDAuOC4zMDAeFw0wMTAxMjYxNzM3NDlaFw0wMjAxMjYxNzM3NDla MEUxHzAdBgNVBAMTFlRoYXd0ZSBGcmVlbWFpbCBNZW1iZXIxIjAgBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWE3Rz bm9hbUB6YWhhdi5uZXQuaWwwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAOiXZp1Urtye pq47CTkdwhpq0BrzskBuqSxj57TpnsHsPaKBfOzBNGQmXAcZKrmOgBE5BY0XzQG5EPZTwtqo MOCXKKzhWoEUs1JdfP8zuTkZ+Ddskkp+4fPsFpdmtbfP1G6OhOOy0/j9w+pW7lfTfK9YeSVd LCpl/njqDq7KbPenAgMBAAGjMDAuMB4GA1UdEQQXMBWBE3Rzbm9hbUB6YWhhdi5uZXQuaWww DAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQB0gVTmwA3f161mXhy4+4OQk9/2U+ji DmfPqbDCDo/TpELbE9Kkx17Ry4bSfNZPJCHJGshJha4uhQchZ5m0xo3AV7keEz6tf3gKEnq4 SMWjDTpREE7J9Rfes7x0L5IdYvtZDBy/nuHHpk/T3aBB6xWR/NXYrtOxsa6m7thd4RhCpDCC AykwggKSoAMCAQICAQwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQI EwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENv bnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAi BgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVy c29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMDA4MzAwMDAwMDBaFw0wMjA4MjkyMzU5 NTlaMIGSMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIwEAYDVQQHEwlD YXBlIFRvd24xDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2Vydmlj ZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAyMDAwLjguMzAwgZ8wDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAN4zMqZjxwklRT7SbngnZ4HF2ogZgpcO40QpimM1Km1wPPrc rvfudG8wvDOQf/k0caCjbZjxw0+iZdsN+kvx1t1hpfmFzVWaNRqdknWoJ67Ycvm6AvbXsJHe HOmr4BgDqHxDQlBRh4M88Dm0m1SKE4f/s5udSWYALQmJ7JRr6aFpAgMBAAGjTjBMMCkGA1Ud EQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwxLTI5NzASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/ AgEAMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQBzG28mZYv/FTRLWWKK7US+Scfo DbuPuQ1qJipihB+4h2N0HG23zxpTkUvhzeY42e1Q9DpsNJKs5pKcbsEjAcIJp+9LrnLdBmf1 UG8uWLi2C8FQV7XsHNfvF7bViJu3ooga7TlbOX00/LaWGCVNavSdxcORL6mWuAU8Uvzd6WID SDGCAcowggHGAgEBMIGaMIGSMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBl MRIwEAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlm aWNhdGUgU2VydmljZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAyMDAwLjgu MzACAwQNAjAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIGGMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZI hvcNAQkFMQ8XDTAxMDIyNDExNDg1OVowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFC4zAXTGWamFg3oZ62UG ubv1zrMkMCcGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzEaMBgwBwYFKw4DAgcwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEgYDGu+pnWAI6gueUn7/WpCMWPnLusnQC/vX7r+EzZHTYBCYXUYDRh6nPGlnM u1bu5jJwqasPj9xogxfMkCg1vvbM1MgrU+bgXr5nROZtr/HRsPxUG5cHF/mKz0aaffX5fPyX uVX/AE1k5XShgCwmsUOXIbt5pfjkxeeYLIam0KoGWw== --msE2B10F8EA900A9C67A7FB796-- = To unsubscribe, send
Re: SUSE 7.1
NM It's wrong because that's not the idea of linux, it ment to be a free NM software. Let's get it straight. Let's compare - how many hours of work did you invest in Linux (as OS, trademark, concept, etc.) and how many SuSE people did? After you make the balance, think again if you have any right on the Earth to ask anything for free from SuSE or tell them what to do. They are not your slaves to work for you for free. If they give _anything_ to you for free, you should say "thank you", if they do not, you should say "oh, I have to earn more money and buy it". Or just download Linux kernel from kernel.org for free and start there. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hello Hetz On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: 1. I'm sure suse didn't create this driver by themselves. I believe that what it uses is what I use for my hp720 - pnm2ppa. it's a driver made by someone not related to suse, you can use it with any distro. Actually, HP and VA Linux are sponsoring people to write GPL drivers for their HP printers (deskjet and laserjet). They're releasing soon 44 drivers for those printers.. Actually, the person who made pnm2ppa, worked alone without any support from HP. Very nice of them to agree to release these drivers, but it already exists. You know what I just thought of - HP could be sponsoring these drivers in order to 'rule' the hp drivers for linux, while there are 'pirate' drivers in the market right now, which work JUST GREAT. I'm sure they don't like it. So you see again, Oren, money here HELPS to create open source drivers! It didn't help. he created it on his own time without their money or support, just support of other open source programmers. 2. yast is good indeed. but it's not free and it has a stupid license as far as I understood. I prefer a GPLed program. Bzzt! I definately don't agree with you. USE the right tool for doing the job! if you got many options, then take the one that you preffer, but disqualifying a product due to it's license? thats THEIR programs and their rights to even release it without a source code! yast is not useful other then in SuSE Linux. So you don't want to use it? fine, do it manually or use webmin or Linuxconf - but everyone has his full right to release a product under any license he want. I heard from some people that the yast license is pretty 'sly' and some bad things about it. I prefer GPL not because I want to see its source or modify it (Although maybe it could be nice), but because I want to be free to use it. These rumors could be untrue a little, I didn't (and still don't) have time to sit down, read and analyze the yast license. But I heard it from different sources so it makes sense. Disqualifying a program that you need to use just because it's not GPL is not a smart move in my book - unless you want to redistribute the code or doing other things with it. Sure. There are more nice licenses such as the BSD license.. But most of the other licenses are not as free as GPL is, so I prefer using it. I wasn't saying 'If it's not GPL - I don't use' (Lo itung - Lo kone). I said that if the license isn't that free, I prefer to use programs under a better license, while there are some programs like that which are also very good. About all that sponsoring stuff you wrote me here and in the letter before - Tell me, how do RedHat and Mandrkae also sponsor so many projects, while they release their distro to the market and to their ftps just about the same time ? What I don't like with suse, that they act too much in a commercial way, while their compatitors don't. Besides, you talk like the whole open source community is sponsored by these companies. I know very few open source projects which are sponsored. Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hello Noam On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: I dunno about the driver, I remember trying hard and for long time, to find an appropriate driver, reading a lot, and achieving nothing. Also, their driver was not mentioned in the Printing HOWTO. http://pnm2ppa.sourceforge.net Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
OH The wrong thing is that they are getting money for programs that OH volunteers did _FOR FREE_, on their own time. instead of giving OH the money for the volunteers I'm giving it to the company who OH packed this and made some nice setup program ? no thanks. they OH should release the d/l version while selling it, imo. That's utter bull. SuSE has a bunch of software written by paid SuSE employees. It also does all the packaging, testing and QA for you. And believe me, this requires a hell of a lot of time (read: money in salaries, office rentals, equipment and inrfastructure). You don't like it, try downloading all the packages you've got with SuSE from source, compiling them and getting them right. Try this on 50 machines now. You liked it? Well, you just saved $30 (or how much is it). If the time you wasted on this is worth less than $30, I'm sorry for you. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hi On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Shaul Karl wrote: I am not familiarat all will SUSE and I do not know what is the time lag between releasing a new version and putting the ISOs for free downloading. Yet I am not sure that a reasonable time gap is not desirable. This is because it let SUSE test their disk in a more wide scale testing environment. This spesifically is not a valid argument IMO: I actually like the more "open" development of redhat and Mandrake, which release more often, release several betas, rush to market with an ISO image, and possibly publish a modified ISO image a couple of weeks later. Leave aside the legitimacy argument. Think about a developer trying to follow the develpment of that distro. For instance: I can relativly easily make a "hebrew-enabled" mandrake or redhat (or debian, of course). But I wouldn't even bother doing this with SuSE or Caldera. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hello Stanislav On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote: OH The wrong thing is that they are getting money for programs that OH volunteers did _FOR FREE_, on their own time. instead of giving OH the money for the volunteers I'm giving it to the company who OH packed this and made some nice setup program ? no thanks. they OH should release the d/l version while selling it, imo. That's utter bull. SuSE has a bunch of software written by paid SuSE employees. It also does all the packaging, testing and QA for you. And believe me, this requires a hell of a lot of time (read: money in salaries, office rentals, equipment and inrfastructure). You don't like it, try downloading all the packages you've got with SuSE from source, compiling them and getting them right. Try this on 50 machines now. You liked it? Well, you just saved $30 (or how much is it). If the time you wasted on this is worth less than $30, I'm sorry for you. SuSE employees are programming a bunch of software. What I said is, that there are people such as Koshelev Maxim (Downloader for X's author) who build programs at least as big as all the suse programs (yast + some bash scripts. It's not a 'bunch' of software imo), and get _NOTHING_. He works pretty hard, you can compare his program to yast (just counted, about 22,000 lines of code), and ofcourse that he is just an example of lots of other people. I gave him for example, because of what he wrote in his 'TROUBLES' file: 3.I need a sponsor because I have no money for dialup connection :( (currently I have free connection at one of my job but it cannot be free forever) This makes me think- why would suse get this money for others' softwares too ? Think about it in a simple way- the company sells an operation system which includes tons of software, and gets money for this, just as microsoft get their money for their os + the additional software. the only different thing is that 99% of these additional softwares are not made by them, and were made for free by volunteers. Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
OH SuSE employees are programming a bunch of software. What I said is, that OH there are people such as Koshelev Maxim (Downloader for X's author) OH who build programs at least as big as all the suse programs (yast + some OH bash scripts. It's not a 'bunch' of software imo), and get _NOTHING_. He I could just take SuSE and list all the software SuSE people took part in (X being one example). But that would be a waste of my time. Every person following news knows that SuSE are not just packagers. OH works pretty hard, you can compare his program to yast (just counted, OH about 22,000 lines of code), and ofcourse that he is just an example of OH lots of other people. I gave him for example, because of what he wrote in OH his 'TROUBLES' file: And so? Do you use this program? Did you sent him a cent? If not - what the hell you want from SuSE? They did not oblige to support every free software programmer in the world. Even one excellent ones. Life's a bitch, and SuSE didn't make it so, neither they obliged to be Jesus C. and save this world from all its problems. OH This makes me think- why would suse get this money for others' OH softwares too ? Think about it in a simple way- the company They do not. If you would just take $10 for each program such as Downloader (which is an excellent program, BTW) and add up, and then add some $100 for packaging and QA that's what would SuSE cost if they did so. However, they don't cost this much - they take for packaging, QA and add-ons. For our time saved doing this. If it isn't worth it - you have prefectly valid alternative of not using SuSE. Still there is a lot of people that do it - so it makes sense, I guess. And yes, before you ask that stupid question - using Microsoft makes a lot of sense for some too. Now start crying "heresy!". -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
OH I heard from some people that the yast license is pretty 'sly' and some OH bad things about it. I prefer GPL not because I want to see its source or OH modify it (Although maybe it could be nice), but because I want to be free OH to use it. GPL has nothing to do with usage, and can not, because copyright law, on which GPL bases, controls distribution, not use. Nothing in the copyright law can prevent you to do anything with the text of the book, but it can prevent you from redistributing the text. BTW, RMS is very eager to change this, and make GPL control the use too - to prevent "loopholes" such as separating GPLed code inside proprietary application and running it as independant module, without redistributing it or even including it in the proprietary product distribution. However nice it seems for "free software", it's very very dangerous move. But this is another topic... OH Sure. There are more nice licenses such as the BSD license.. But OH most of the other licenses are not as free as GPL is, so I GPL is much less free that BSD. In fact, GPL is the most restrictive open source license known to me - it not only mandates you to opensource all your changes or additions to the code, it specifically prescribes under what license you should do it. And, as I said, RMS wants to make it even more restrictive. That's "beneficial for specific group of software developers" - to which you may or may not to belong, but not "free". OH Besides, you talk like the whole open source community is OH sponsored by these companies. I know very few open source OH projects which are sponsored. Oh, well, so you know not much. That's nice you realize it. Next step is to try and know more. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hi Hetz and Oren On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Oren Held wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: 2. yast is good indeed. but it's not free and it has a stupid license as far as I understood. I prefer a GPLed program. Bzzt! I definately don't agree with you. USE the right tool for doing the job! if you got many options, then take the one that you preffer, but disqualifying a product due to it's license? thats THEIR programs and their rights to even release it without a source code! yast is not useful other then in SuSE Linux. So you don't want to use it? fine, do it manually or use webmin or Linuxconf - but everyone has his full right to release a product under any license he want. There seems to be a certain point you miss, read on... I heard from some people that the yast license is pretty 'sly' and some bad things about it. I prefer GPL not because I want to see its source or modify it (Although maybe it could be nice), but because I want to be free to use it. What do you mean by "free to use"? You can always get the latest 'evaluation' SuSE distro and use yast for free. But had it been GPLed, you waould have more... Had it been GPLed you could also modify it, and distribute your changes. In other words, this would have allowed you to make your own version of SuSE, and distribute it. Indeed, in the case of redhat, debain, and slackware, there are other distros based on those distros. Mainly on redhat. SuSE don't want that to happen to them. While I appretiate their concern, and believe it is totally legitimate of them (I know packaging, QA, support, etc., not to mention sponserring, costs money), I personally believe that this choice is not wise of them. But there are other consequences: Creating your own customized redhat/mandrake/whatever CD/network install (not kick-start) is relatively painless. I believe that with SuSE this is not so much the case. Disqualifying a program that you need to use just because it's not GPL is not a smart move in my book - unless you want to redistribute the code or doing other things with it. Not *just* because it is not GPLed. Indeed what Oren wrote before indicates that he does not understand the benefits of GPL. The aim of GPL is to create a large free code base. This code base can include installers for linux distros. All-in-all I think that redhat's users has benefited much from the large number of redhat-derivative distros. I would like to encourge distros that allow me to modify every spesific detail, and redistibute. I know other here may not agree. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1 (printer issue)
Actually, HP and VA Linux are sponsoring people to write GPL drivers for their HP printers (deskjet and laserjet). They're releasing soon 44 drivers for those printers.. Actually, the person who made pnm2ppa, worked alone without any support from HP. Very nice of them to agree to release these drivers, but it already exists. Yes, I know about this driver (I have a friend which has the same printer and uses this driver under Linux) You know what I just thought of - HP could be sponsoring these drivers in order to 'rule' the hp drivers for linux, while there are 'pirate' drivers in the market right now, which work JUST GREAT. I'm sure they don't like it. Why do you think they don't like it? did he steal code from someone? so he did it without the docs. OK. So? So my USB camera (Logitech Quickcam Color Express USB) wasn't working with Linux and Logitech didn't want to release the spec, but now some hacked it and I have it working and Logitech knows about it. Is this thing bad? no So you see again, Oren, money here HELPS to create open source drivers! It didn't help. he created it on his own time without their money or support, just support of other open source programmers. At that time, yes, they didn't help. Thats true. Also, once the drivers will be out - you might want to replace your current driver. The new driver will support your parallel port read back (IEEE 1284), and wiill give it the same features as the Windows driver have (and lets hope - more stability then their windows version. They get great printers, but very bad drivers in Windows). About all that sponsoring stuff you wrote me here and in the letter before - Tell me, how do RedHat and Mandrkae also sponsor so many projects, while they release their distro to the market and to their ftps just about the same time ? What I don't like with suse, that they act too much in a commercial way, while their compatitors don't. SuSE is a private company who specialize in porting (they're the first who did the S/390 Linux distribution port, the RS/6000 Linux port etc), and they decided to suspend ISO image few months after they release their product. Some will like it, some don't. It's their right after all - it's their product. Besides, you talk like the whole open source community is sponsored by these companies. I know very few open source projects which are sponsored. KDE - partly sponsored GNOME - massively sponsored XFree - massively sponsored USB - Massively sponsored FIre Wire - Massively sponsored Source Forge itself - totally sponsored Apache - Massively sponsored SAMBA - Massively sponsored GCC - Partly sponsored Various architecture Linux port - Massively sponsored And thats just a small list of project which are either partly or massively sponsored by SuSE, Mandrake and partly Redhat (SuSE are the biggest sponsor of open source project). Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:55:21AM +0200, Oren Held wrote: Hello Hetz The wrong thing is that they are getting money for programs that volunteers did _FOR FREE_, on their own time. What is wrong with it? If the volunteers did not want their software to be used and profited from, they would not have released their code as free software. The way I see it, and implicitly from their license, the way these volunteers are seeing it, is that SuSE is actually helping them in getting their software used more. instead of giving the money for the volunteers I'm giving it to the company who packed this and made some nice setup program ? Then why won't you send the volunteers some money, too? Anyhow, a large part of the CD money does go to the projects, through sponsorships. SuSE is one of the larger sponsors of free software projects -- off the top of my head, Andreas Archangelli (the Linux VM hacker), and XFree86 (they sponsored the first Rage128 driver, which I've used for quite a while, even though I didn't pay SuSE a cent). no thanks. they should release the d/l version while selling it, imo. You can buy the CD and place its contents on a web site if you like. That's why I prefer to use a non-commercial distro (debian). Which is also being sold, for various prices. Debian is mostly distributed by commercial companies for completely commercial reasons. - Adi Stav = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 12:43:23AM +0200, Noam Meltzer wrote: It's wrong because that's not the idea of linux, it ment to be a free software. I usually get confused here, but whatever license it is on (the kernel), GPL or GNU (I think GPL) says that u have to put it free of charge for d/l or something like that. Hope i didn't talk bullshit now, but still... "Free Software" in the sense of "tochna hofshit", not "tochna hinam". Not only you are allowed and encouraged to sell it, but you cannot demand people you give the software NOT to sell it. See http://gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html for more details. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:45:37PM +0200, Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote: OH I heard from some people that the yast license is pretty 'sly' and some OH bad things about it. I prefer GPL not because I want to see its source or OH modify it (Although maybe it could be nice), but because I want to be free OH to use it. GPL has nothing to do with usage, and can not, because copyright law, on which GPL bases, controls distribution, not use. Nothing in the copyright law can prevent you to do anything with the text of the book, but it can prevent you from redistributing the text. BTW, RMS is very eager to change this, and make GPL control the use too Your opinions are yours, of course, but I think you are misrepresenting RMS here. He has always objected to limiting the use of software. Consider his recent review of the new APSL (Apple Public Source License) at http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/apsl.html : At a fundamental level, the APSL makes a claim that, if it became accepted, would stretch copyright powers in a dangerous way: it claims to be able to set conditions for simply *running* the software. As I understand it, copyright law in the US does not permit this, except when encryption or a license manager is used to enforce the conditions. It would be terribly ironic if a failed attempt at making a free software license resulted in an extension of the effective range of copyright power. - to prevent "loopholes" such as separating GPLed code inside proprietary application and running it as independant module, without redistributing it or even including it in the proprietary product distribution. However nice it seems for "free software", it's very very dangerous move. But this is another topic... OH Sure. There are more nice licenses such as the BSD license.. But OH most of the other licenses are not as free as GPL is, so I GPL is much less free that BSD. In fact, GPL is the most restrictive open source license known to me - it not only mandates you to opensource all your changes or additions to the code, it specifically prescribes under what license you should do it. And, as I said, RMS wants to make it even more restrictive. That's "beneficial for specific group of software developers" - to which you may or may not to belong, but not "free". OH Besides, you talk like the whole open source community is OH sponsored by these companies. I know very few open source OH projects which are sponsored. Oh, well, so you know not much. That's nice you realize it. Next step is to try and know more. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hi On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Shaul Karl wrote: I am not familiarat all will SUSE and I do not know what is the time lag between releasing a new version and putting the ISOs for free downloading. Yet I am not sure that a reasonable time gap is not desirable. This is because it let SUSE test their disk in a more wide scale testing environment. This spesifically is not a valid argument IMO: I actually like the more "open" development of redhat and Mandrake, which release more often, release several betas, rush to market with an ISO image, and possibly publish a modified ISO image a couple of weeks later. Leave aside the legitimacy argument. Think about a developer trying to follow the develpment of that distro. For instance: I can relativly easily make a "hebrew-enabled" mandrake or redhat (or debian, of course). But I wouldn't even bother doing this with SuSE or Caldera. Then SUSE does not have a site from which one can download up to date packages? That + 2.5 months for releasing the ISOs makes me wonder whether they are not wrong with their marketing strategy. I wonder what their rating among the other distros is. How many SUSE users do we have? I wonder what would Oren have to say about comparing distros couple of months after (if) he will make his move. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shaul Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
AS Your opinions are yours, of course, but I think you are AS misrepresenting RMS here. He has always objected to limiting the use AS of software. Consider his recent review of the new APSL (Apple Public Well, so he's a hypocrite here. Because when it is regarding his software (specifically readline) he is actively objecting making programs that are interoperable with (link with) this library but not GPL - thus limiting use, not only distribution. I already quoted RMS on that on the list. Also, if you had read discussion on /. some couple of monthes ago on GPL 3, RMS said specifically that he wants to plug "appserver loophole". Means limiting use again. Actually, nowdays it's pretty much impossible to distinguish between separately distributing two parts of the application and making two applications interoperable. Term "derived work" is not defined and never was, and yet less there's any hope it will be. A good lawyer probably will tear in shreds any "derived work" claim but simply copying the code, and, alternatively, make two pieces of software that came once in touch "derived work" of each other - depending on who pays him. Using such words in a (wannabe) legal document is very unfortunate move. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
On Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 08:08:27AM +0200, Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote: AS Your opinions are yours, of course, but I think you are AS misrepresenting RMS here. He has always objected to limiting the use AS of software. Consider his recent review of the new APSL (Apple Public Well, so he's a hypocrite here. Because when it is regarding his software (specifically readline) he is actively objecting making programs that are interoperable with (link with) this library but not GPL - thus limiting use, not only distribution. I already quoted RMS on that on the list. That's "work based on the program", NOT use. Were there a limit on use, you wouldn't have been able to use readline in a proprietary in-house project, for example. Also, if you had read discussion on /. some couple of months ago on GPL 3, RMS said specifically that he wants to plug "appserver loophole". Means limiting use again. You haven't yet seen the GPLv3, but you have already decided that it will limit running programs and that RMS is a therefore a hyprocrite. Actually, nowdays it's pretty much impossible to distinguish between separately distributing two parts of the application and making two applications interoperable. New technology is giving the legal system new challenges every day. That is not new, and it doesn't mean that copyright laws are no longer relevant to technology, as much as I wish they weren't. Term "derived work" is not defined and never was, and yet less there's any hope it will be. What makes you think "derived work" (or "work based on the program", as the GPL refers to it) is undefined? I am not lawyer, but neither are you, and everybody else seems to think otherwise. A good lawyer probably will tear in shreds any "derived work" claim but simply copying the code, and, alternatively, make two pieces of software that came once in touch "derived work" of each other - depending on who pays him. Using such words in a (wannabe) legal document is very unfortunate move. It held fine for the past 10 years. - Adi Stav = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
--ms1A303D093B9925E18A142827 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know it's very annoying. And it makes me mad also, but I have two reasons I'm sticking with it for right now: 1. It has a driver for HP printers I couldn't find anywhere else, that supports color on my HP895CXI. 2. I got used to it's configuration methods, and where the files sit. Oren Held wrote: Hello Noam I didn't even know it's out.. hmmm.. the just cause me hate them.. I really want to move to deb/slack.. I think I'll do it in my next vacation. I'm not having fun using such a commercial distro. Cya, Oren. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: Does any1 has this new release of SuSE? I would like to get a copy of it, if it's possible. Suse, like in their last release doesn't hurry to put an ISO out for download. -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 --ms1A303D093B9925E18A142827 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIHswYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIHpDCCB6ACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC BbEwggKAMIIB6aADAgECAgMEDQIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgZIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUw EwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEPMA0GA1UEChMGVGhh d3RlMR0wGwYDVQQLExRDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTZXJ2aWNlczEoMCYGA1UEAxMfUGVyc29uYWwg RnJlZW1haWwgUlNBIDIwMDAuOC4zMDAeFw0wMTAxMjYxNzM3NDlaFw0wMjAxMjYxNzM3NDla MEUxHzAdBgNVBAMTFlRoYXd0ZSBGcmVlbWFpbCBNZW1iZXIxIjAgBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWE3Rz bm9hbUB6YWhhdi5uZXQuaWwwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAOiXZp1Urtye pq47CTkdwhpq0BrzskBuqSxj57TpnsHsPaKBfOzBNGQmXAcZKrmOgBE5BY0XzQG5EPZTwtqo MOCXKKzhWoEUs1JdfP8zuTkZ+Ddskkp+4fPsFpdmtbfP1G6OhOOy0/j9w+pW7lfTfK9YeSVd LCpl/njqDq7KbPenAgMBAAGjMDAuMB4GA1UdEQQXMBWBE3Rzbm9hbUB6YWhhdi5uZXQuaWww DAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQB0gVTmwA3f161mXhy4+4OQk9/2U+ji DmfPqbDCDo/TpELbE9Kkx17Ry4bSfNZPJCHJGshJha4uhQchZ5m0xo3AV7keEz6tf3gKEnq4 SMWjDTpREE7J9Rfes7x0L5IdYvtZDBy/nuHHpk/T3aBB6xWR/NXYrtOxsa6m7thd4RhCpDCC AykwggKSoAMCAQICAQwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQI EwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENv bnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAi BgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVy c29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMDA4MzAwMDAwMDBaFw0wMjA4MjkyMzU5 NTlaMIGSMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIwEAYDVQQHEwlD YXBlIFRvd24xDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2Vydmlj ZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAyMDAwLjguMzAwgZ8wDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAN4zMqZjxwklRT7SbngnZ4HF2ogZgpcO40QpimM1Km1wPPrc rvfudG8wvDOQf/k0caCjbZjxw0+iZdsN+kvx1t1hpfmFzVWaNRqdknWoJ67Ycvm6AvbXsJHe HOmr4BgDqHxDQlBRh4M88Dm0m1SKE4f/s5udSWYALQmJ7JRr6aFpAgMBAAGjTjBMMCkGA1Ud EQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwxLTI5NzASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/ AgEAMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQBzG28mZYv/FTRLWWKK7US+Scfo DbuPuQ1qJipihB+4h2N0HG23zxpTkUvhzeY42e1Q9DpsNJKs5pKcbsEjAcIJp+9LrnLdBmf1 UG8uWLi2C8FQV7XsHNfvF7bViJu3ooga7TlbOX00/LaWGCVNavSdxcORL6mWuAU8Uvzd6WID SDGCAcowggHGAgEBMIGaMIGSMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBl MRIwEAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlm aWNhdGUgU2VydmljZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAyMDAwLjgu MzACAwQNAjAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIGGMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZI hvcNAQkFMQ8XDTAxMDIyMzIwMzMyOFowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFELMNenFvEbuXPl749br 8vGEx3nqMCcGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzEaMBgwBwYFKw4DAgcwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEgYAGfHSPEF9uTndCkKJxPUsycXpdK8z0fZc+2ESxYpLK6kw+tgpQPuWRk3Sk 3SObIQODhfS7ZMu4n9ZBzn0kjPaOdeg7wK5Rr14B/BgcXrtWIbZ20rT5Do3ULVG1YGGx5EYc SNiUGEE5OfhM6qajjozlJxEhtyqX3W+gfCgZrXlqmA== --ms1A303D093B9925E18A142827-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
I am not familiar at all will SUSE and I do not know what is the time lag between releasing a new version and putting the ISOs for free downloading. Yet I am not sure that a reasonable time gap is not desirable. This is because it let SUSE test their disk in a more wide scale testing environment. Their lag time is about 2-3 months after the release... Seriously, whats wrong with that? go ahead and buy for 30-50$ a Linux distro. Let them make some money. Whats wrong with that? Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
--ms322B913CD06BFF448F62C355 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: I am not familiar at all will SUSE and I do not know what is the time lag between releasing a new version and putting the ISOs for free downloading. Yet I am not sure that a reasonable time gap is not desirable. This is because it let SUSE test their disk in a more wide scale testing environment. Their lag time is about 2-3 months after the release... Seriously, whats wrong with that? go ahead and buy for 30-50$ a Linux distro. Let them make some money. Whats wrong with that? Hetz It's wrong because that's not the idea of linux, it ment to be a free software. I usually get confused here, but whatever license it is on (the kernel), GPL or GNU (I think GPL) says that u have to put it free of charge for d/l or something like that. Hope i didn't talk bullshit now, but still... -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 --ms322B913CD06BFF448F62C355 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIHswYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIHpDCCB6ACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC BbEwggKAMIIB6aADAgECAgMEDQIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgZIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUw EwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEPMA0GA1UEChMGVGhh d3RlMR0wGwYDVQQLExRDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTZXJ2aWNlczEoMCYGA1UEAxMfUGVyc29uYWwg RnJlZW1haWwgUlNBIDIwMDAuOC4zMDAeFw0wMTAxMjYxNzM3NDlaFw0wMjAxMjYxNzM3NDla MEUxHzAdBgNVBAMTFlRoYXd0ZSBGcmVlbWFpbCBNZW1iZXIxIjAgBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWE3Rz bm9hbUB6YWhhdi5uZXQuaWwwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAOiXZp1Urtye pq47CTkdwhpq0BrzskBuqSxj57TpnsHsPaKBfOzBNGQmXAcZKrmOgBE5BY0XzQG5EPZTwtqo MOCXKKzhWoEUs1JdfP8zuTkZ+Ddskkp+4fPsFpdmtbfP1G6OhOOy0/j9w+pW7lfTfK9YeSVd LCpl/njqDq7KbPenAgMBAAGjMDAuMB4GA1UdEQQXMBWBE3Rzbm9hbUB6YWhhdi5uZXQuaWww DAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQB0gVTmwA3f161mXhy4+4OQk9/2U+ji DmfPqbDCDo/TpELbE9Kkx17Ry4bSfNZPJCHJGshJha4uhQchZ5m0xo3AV7keEz6tf3gKEnq4 SMWjDTpREE7J9Rfes7x0L5IdYvtZDBy/nuHHpk/T3aBB6xWR/NXYrtOxsa6m7thd4RhCpDCC AykwggKSoAMCAQICAQwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQI EwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENv bnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAi BgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVy c29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMDA4MzAwMDAwMDBaFw0wMjA4MjkyMzU5 NTlaMIGSMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIwEAYDVQQHEwlD YXBlIFRvd24xDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2Vydmlj ZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAyMDAwLjguMzAwgZ8wDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAN4zMqZjxwklRT7SbngnZ4HF2ogZgpcO40QpimM1Km1wPPrc rvfudG8wvDOQf/k0caCjbZjxw0+iZdsN+kvx1t1hpfmFzVWaNRqdknWoJ67Ycvm6AvbXsJHe HOmr4BgDqHxDQlBRh4M88Dm0m1SKE4f/s5udSWYALQmJ7JRr6aFpAgMBAAGjTjBMMCkGA1Ud EQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRlTGFiZWwxLTI5NzASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/ AgEAMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQBzG28mZYv/FTRLWWKK7US+Scfo DbuPuQ1qJipihB+4h2N0HG23zxpTkUvhzeY42e1Q9DpsNJKs5pKcbsEjAcIJp+9LrnLdBmf1 UG8uWLi2C8FQV7XsHNfvF7bViJu3ooga7TlbOX00/LaWGCVNavSdxcORL6mWuAU8Uvzd6WID SDGCAcowggHGAgEBMIGaMIGSMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBl MRIwEAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlm aWNhdGUgU2VydmljZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAyMDAwLjgu MzACAwQNAjAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIGGMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZI hvcNAQkFMQ8XDTAxMDIyMzIyNDMyM1owIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFJCAFe7LuINAZ60XQnVw rD6MPrwQMCcGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzEaMBgwBwYFKw4DAgcwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEgYDVC/1S78/ws3CA0RDHYr4J7OlXyWOc4cTucIzR86iNOu0nIZBEkTLaWO9J IBbp8DN9KLjhXzZj2SMAeFH6H7op4w3BzOgT6JBcgkDw1ZB5RhqbLHZEdxRBVDeZzzugfMOS rWRRVdQM/7yBXrkVh0uxWIok+vh3RPTg1m/09jwb6g== --ms322B913CD06BFF448F62C355-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
HI Noam, others... I'll be poilte... The only reason that SuSE are doing this is because they do want to survive and make money, I belive. It's wrong because that's not the idea of linux, it ment to be a free software. No, the source should be free in the GNU/Linux world. True - that NOT, however, conflict with the interest of companies to make money. When you buy SuSE/Redhat/Mandrake - then you get a CD with full source code inside packaged nicely in SRPM's (or debs, or tar balls, depend on the distribution). So, I stand correct on my position - go buy a copy, support that company so they can make newer versions of that distribution, and that they can sponsor projects like USB, FireWire, HOT Swap, kernel development, XFree, ALSA. These project costs money to make, and by you not buying anything, whining that you want it free and now - you're not helping them to grow, nor the Linux movement. I usually get confused here, but whatever license it is on (the kernel), GPL or GNU (I think GPL) says that u have to put it free of charge for d/l or something like that. Hope i didn't talk bullshit now, but still... ABSOLUTLY NOT! Go ahead, read the license again (something not very healthy to do with all the confusions that it got inside). The license SPECIFICALLY says that yes, you can make money from a product and sell it for as much as you want, but you need to let the customer have an access to the source code and the modifications. They can charge you for that devlivery way (post, shipment, effort) and the GPL license allows that. So whether you talked bullshit or not - I'll leave it up to you to decide, my friend. But I really hope that you'll change your mind and support your distributions. Paying 200-300 NIS for a full box with all the documentation, CD's (7 or 8 and 1 DVD-ROM in the case of SuSE, and a small toy to put on your monitor) is NOT much when considering the huge amount of software that you're getting. Go ahead and compare the price to any Windows and what do you get when you buy it. Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hello Noam 1. I'm sure suse didn't create this driver by themselves. I believe that what it uses is what I use for my hp720 - pnm2ppa. it's a driver made by someone not related to suse, you can use it with any distro. 2. yast is good indeed. but it's not free and it has a stupid license as far as I understood. I prefer a GPLed program. Cya, Oren. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: I know it's very annoying. And it makes me mad also, but I have two reasons I'm sticking with it for right now: 1. It has a driver for HP printers I couldn't find anywhere else, that supports color on my HP895CXI. 2. I got used to it's configuration methods, and where the files sit. Oren Held wrote: Hello Noam I didn't even know it's out.. hmmm.. the just cause me hate them.. I really want to move to deb/slack.. I think I'll do it in my next vacation. I'm not having fun using such a commercial distro. Cya, Oren. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Noam Meltzer wrote: Does any1 has this new release of SuSE? I would like to get a copy of it, if it's possible. Suse, like in their last release doesn't hurry to put an ISO out for download. -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 -- Noam Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4853872 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
I got to reply to this! On Saturday 24 February 2001 01:53, Oren Held wrote: Hello Noam Hello Noam, Oren 1. I'm sure suse didn't create this driver by themselves. I believe that what it uses is what I use for my hp720 - pnm2ppa. it's a driver made by someone not related to suse, you can use it with any distro. Actually, HP and VA Linux are sponsoring people to write GPL drivers for their HP printers (deskjet and laserjet). They're releasing soon 44 drivers for those printers.. So you see again, Oren, money here HELPS to create open source drivers! 2. yast is good indeed. but it's not free and it has a stupid license as far as I understood. I prefer a GPLed program. Bzzt! I definately don't agree with you. USE the right tool for doing the job! if you got many options, then take the one that you preffer, but disqualifying a product due to it's license? thats THEIR programs and their rights to even release it without a source code! yast is not useful other then in SuSE Linux. So you don't want to use it? fine, do it manually or use webmin or Linuxconf - but everyone has his full right to release a product under any license he want. Disqualifying a program that you need to use just because it's not GPL is not a smart move in my book - unless you want to redistribute the code or doing other things with it. Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Hello Hetz The wrong thing is that they are getting money for programs that volunteers did _FOR FREE_, on their own time. instead of giving the money for the volunteers I'm giving it to the company who packed this and made some nice setup program ? no thanks. they should release the d/l version while selling it, imo. That's why I prefer to use a non-commercial distro (debian). Cya, Oren. On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: I am not familiar at all will SUSE and I do not know what is the time lag between releasing a new version and putting the ISOs for free downloading. Yet I am not sure that a reasonable time gap is not desirable. This is because it let SUSE test their disk in a more wide scale testing environment. Their lag time is about 2-3 months after the release... Seriously, whats wrong with that? go ahead and buy for 30-50$ a Linux distro. Let them make some money. Whats wrong with that? Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Oren Dear, The next time that you use your IDE drive, USB devices, Blue tooth device (in the near future), your motherboard chipset, X windows, KDE or GNOME- think WHO IS SPONSORING THIS WORK? Those who package it add lots of values besides collections. What about writing docs for the distribution? what about support costs? and the most IMPORTANT one - what about SPONSORING open source drivers and features to be written? yes, part of them are written by volunteers, but without financial backing for major projects (like USB for programmers who just do the Linux USB development) - does those project will envolve fast? So no, they're not just collecting and collecting money, they give support for the product, they sponsor products, and they innovate. They're not alone, but they do pay programmers to work on projects full time! THINK BEFORE YOU EMAIL! Hetz On Saturday 24 February 2001 01:55, Oren Held wrote: Hello Hetz The wrong thing is that they are getting money for programs that volunteers did _FOR FREE_, on their own time. instead of giving the money for the volunteers I'm giving it to the company who packed this and made some nice setup program ? no thanks. they should release the d/l version while selling it, imo. That's why I prefer to use a non-commercial distro (debian). Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SUSE 7.1
Oren, Although the company doesn't give you support (you download their product for free, they don't see a single dollar from you AND you want support which costs them money?), they'll be happy to hear about bugs if you found on their product. But before you shout about bugs - look at their bugzilla. most of the serious distribution have a public bugzilla available. Hetz On Saturday 24 February 2001 01:51, Oren Held wrote: Hello Shaul Do you really think that they care so much about their 'customers' who pay them nothing ? They're selling it at this 'gap time'- means it's already non-buggy in their opinion. they just want people to buy it instead of d/l. Cya, Oren. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
