Re: Vgames
On Sat, 12 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:57:20AM +0300, Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote:
IK As to KHTML (used by Konq), it's much more forgiving than Mozilla.
IK Heck, it implements a 'document.all' object (for IE compatibility)!
If it implements full MSIE DOM (including all properties and methods ans
stuff) it's cool. But somehow I doubt it. But if it does not, this only
means they do a great disservice for the users, because now this browser
is detected by all scripts as MSIE (while if it didn't support MSIE but
did support W3C DOM, it would be detected as W3C DOM browser) and all
scripts that have different versions for MSIE and W3C DOM (a lot of them)
try now to use MSIE version and fail miserably. It's very bad to
masquerade as supporting something unless you do support it 100%.
The proper logics should be first test for W3C DOM (via
document.getElementByTag('body') or smth) to detect Moz / Konq / IE5,
only only later resort to hacks.
True. also - a lot of scripts (which of course don't check for browser
support other then document.all vs. document.layers) use document.all and
no other IE specific extensions which isn't in the DOM.
Oded
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Re: Vgames
OA True. also - a lot of scripts (which of course don't check for OA browser support other then document.all vs. document.layers) use OA document.all and no other IE specific extensions which isn't in OA the DOM. Well, these scripts are antic and will die out, as soon as Netscape 4 dies out. And, obvious, these scripts are outright broken since they ignore W3C standard. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, 10 May 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's wrong with the blink tag? Well, first of all, it's not in any standard. Netscape thought it's nice, and put it there. Second, Well, it's better to look at Eric Raymond's HTML Hell Page: http://tuxedo.org/~esr/html-hell.html It's the first item. --roozbeh = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:57:20AM +0300, Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote:
IK As to KHTML (used by Konq), it's much more forgiving than Mozilla.
IK Heck, it implements a 'document.all' object (for IE compatibility)!
If it implements full MSIE DOM (including all properties and methods ans
stuff) it's cool. But somehow I doubt it. But if it does not, this only
means they do a great disservice for the users, because now this browser
is detected by all scripts as MSIE (while if it didn't support MSIE but
did support W3C DOM, it would be detected as W3C DOM browser) and all
scripts that have different versions for MSIE and W3C DOM (a lot of them)
try now to use MSIE version and fail miserably. It's very bad to
masquerade as supporting something unless you do support it 100%.
The proper logics should be first test for W3C DOM (via
document.getElementByTag('body') or smth) to detect Moz / Konq / IE5,
only only later resort to hacks.
--
Best regards,
Ilya Konstantinov
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Re: Vgames
IK As to KHTML (used by Konq), it's much more forgiving than Mozilla. IK Heck, it implements a 'document.all' object (for IE compatibility)! If it implements full MSIE DOM (including all properties and methods ans stuff) it's cool. But somehow I doubt it. But if it does not, this only means they do a great disservice for the users, because now this browser is detected by all scripts as MSIE (while if it didn't support MSIE but did support W3C DOM, it would be detected as W3C DOM browser) and all scripts that have different versions for MSIE and W3C DOM (a lot of them) try now to use MSIE version and fail miserably. It's very bad to masquerade as supporting something unless you do support it 100%. Actually, if you support W3C DOM, you don't need any document.all's, since the former is the accepted standard, all current major browsers support it and all serious DHTML makers know about it and support it. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
Chen Shapira wrote:
I doubt it. I got Minibank from Mizrachi. It's got some
security stuff which is strict MS, and it is touted for Win 98 .
(It screwed up something in my Win 2000 partition that
badly that I had to re-install, but that's another sad story.)
Linux? I wonder if the folks at Mizrachi know what it is.
I use Bank Hapoalim's, beside some Hebrew problem it works On
Netscape 4.76
On RedHat 6.2 ( Whatever that means )
That's what community is for!
Now Daniel can ask his bank for a decent service, because he can tell them
that he has other options...
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Not so simple!
I wish I could, but I'm so heavily tied into Mizrachi that it wouldn't work. (I
sometimes wonder if I bank with them or
they bank with me.) I think that we need to put pressure on the public organizations
into at least being cross platform.
A previous correspondent, Chaim Gelfenbeyn, mentioned problems with Bank Discount's
Java package. I'm not surprised,
since Java applets tend to be very platform sensitive - browser differences, JDK
version differences, support (or
non-support) for Swing etc. etc.
The simple truth is, that we need to get our own act together - and this is no longer
a Linux issue. For the moment, the
closest thing to cross platform standards are exemplified by tools like Java, Tcl,
Perl. Of these Java seems to be
the best candidate for the matters which interest us.
The issue is not, therefore Linux vs. FreeBSD vs. Unix vs. Windows vs. Mac vs. .
It is open standards (not
necessarily open source), vs. the old proprietary standards bogeyman.
Although this is a Linux list, we would be sticking our heads in the ground,
ostrich-style, to tackle the problem as a
Linux issue.
I suggest that ,
1. We close this discussion here.
2. IGLU might either initiate or take a more active part in a list dedicated to this
specific issue.
Daniel Feiglin
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Re: Vgames
Internet-Gold Service wrote:
Dear Surfer, Please click on the attached file to view this message. Internet Gold
Team
Dear Sir,
My workstation runs under Linux using a Netscape browser without Hebrew support.
Please send clear text messages in
English only! (Yes, I know that you don't support Linux, but let me remind you, that
English is not a specifically
Linux product, and you may use it without unduly upsetting Microsoft.)
Regards,
Daniel Feiglin
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Re: Vgames
Internet-Gold Service wrote: Dear Surfer, Please click on the attached file to view this message. Internet Gold Team (Attached file, index.html contains gobbeldygook.) Dear Sir, My workstation runs under Linux using a Netscape browser without Hebrew support. Please send clear text messages in English only! (Yes, I know that you don't support Linux, but let me remind you, that English is not a specifically Linux product, and you may use it without unduly upsetting Microsoft.) Regards, Daniel Feiglin (Added note for IGLU: I presume that I'm not the only who has to put up with this sort of crap ...) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Vgames
(Added note for IGLU: I presume that I'm not the only who has to put up with this sort of crap ...) And Isracard requires IE 5.0 *and* 800x600 screen resolution to view credit info through the net. Guys, I think we are a minority being ignored and harassed by companies. Should we start an awareness campaign? Thanks, Chen Shapira. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, May 10, 2001, Chen Shapira wrote about RE: Vgames: (Added note for IGLU: I presume that I'm not the only who has to put up with this sort of crap ...) And Isracard requires IE 5.0 *and* 800x600 screen resolution to view credit info through the net. Guys, I think we are a minority being ignored and harassed by companies. Should we start an awareness campaign? I also saw another site, http://www.mcc.co.il/, which insists to not work with Netscape (not just provide you a worse experience - it doesn't work at all giving you a message about). It tells you something like the following, in Hebrew (look at the actual site with Netscape for the original text): Dear user, the new site of chever consumer club ltd. is an advanced content site, which uses standard Hebrew representation only, and uses advanced features of the broser. Since Netscape's products do not support standard Hebrew and cannot perform certain advanced actions, and since Microsoft's IE5.0 can be downloaded for free, and according to a survey this software is used by most of the public (over 80%), this site can be viewed and used using [only] IE5.x which you are invited to download and install on your comuter. For your convenience we include a reference to a download site. I was infuriated (actually, I think that was the intention of the guy that sent it to me ;)). This kind of thinking is similar to the thinking of companies who don't bother to be accessible to handicapped people, because (let's face it) most people are not handicapped. I wrote a similar sign which I suggest they should put on their building: Dear user, the new building of Chever consumer club is an advanced building, which uses a three dimensional structure to offer you more content. Because certain wheelchairs do not support making use of the third dimension in the _standard_ way (i.e., walking up a staircase), and because people in weelchairs have relatives who can be sent instead (for free!) and because our survey shows that legs are in use for most of the public (over 80%), our building is usable for leg-users only. You are invited to install mechanic legs - for your convenience we include a reference to a good orthopedist. Ooof!!! -- Nadav Har'El| Thursday, May 10 2001, 17 Iyyar 5761 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |How could we possibly use sex to get http://nadav.harel.org.il |what we want? Sex IS what we want! Fraser = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:00:03PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: Ooof!!! I do understand them in preferring to work with Logical Hebrew only. In fact, what they're doing is more analogous putting a guard at the entrance, preventing handicapped people from entering. Not to imply Linux users are handicapped :) Actually, we don't have to go and search for small Hebrew sites. Try http://www.harrypotter.com, owned by no other than Warner Brothers. Especially try it from Mozilla or Konqueror. Notice the page offers you no way to proceed further. I have no problem with using advanced features. I do have a problem with sites thinking (rather close-minded) they know what's good for me. -- Best regards, Ilya Konstantinov = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Vgames
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Chen Shapira wrote: (Added note for IGLU: I presume that I'm not the only who has to put up with this sort of crap ...) And Isracard requires IE 5.0 *and* 800x600 screen resolution to view credit info through the net. Guys, I think we are a minority being ignored and harassed by companies. Should we start an awareness campaign? How about Cancelling your Isracard, ordering a Visa-cal instead, and telling isracard what you did and why? It should be more effective than an awareness campaign. Visa-cal's site works OK with netscape, but unfortunately does not work with konqueror. I am not sure if it is a konqueror bug or site design bug yet. On the same subject - is there a bank in israel that's it's online banking (internet or direct modem connection) is usefull within linux? -- Matan Ziv-Av. [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2001, Chen Shapira wrote about RE: Vgames: (Added note for IGLU: I presume that I'm not the only who has to put up with this sort of crap ...) And Isracard requires IE 5.0 *and* 800x600 screen resolution to view credit info through the net. Guys, I think we are a minority being ignored and harassed by companies. Should we start an awareness campaign? I also saw another site, http://www.mcc.co.il/, which insists to not work with Netscape (not just provide you a worse experience - it doesn't work at all giving you a message about). It tells you something like the following, in Hebrew (look at the actual site with Netscape for the original text): ( how do I chenge the browser ID in netscape 4.x? I had no problem browsing it using lynx, so it probably looks in the browser-ID for netscape) Dear user, the new site of chever consumer club ltd. is an advanced content site, which uses standard Hebrew representation only, and uses advanced features of the broser. Since Netscape's products do not support standard Hebrew and cannot perform certain advanced actions, and since Microsoft's IE5.0 can be downloaded for free, and according to a survey this software is used by most of the public (over 80%), this site can be viewed and used using [only] IE5.x which you are invited to download and install on your comuter. For your conveniencewe include a reference to a download site. Actually, their standard-compliance assumtion is a bit wrong: http://www.isoc.org.il/hebrew (that page used to also contain a link to the bdns461i: IBM's bidi-ed netscape 4.61) Actually the latest news is that the newest nightly builds of mozilla /should/ contain bidi support compiled in (haven't tried it yet. just read a message in a newgroup). Netscape 4.x is indeed a problematic browser, with hebrew and with other issues. It has been under-developed for a couple of years now... The question is whether all of their advanced content uses w3c standards, or MS-spesific standards. I was infuriated (actually, I think that was the intention of the guy that sent it to me ;)). This kind of thinking is similar to the thinking of companies who don't bother to be accessible to handicapped people, because (let's face it) most people are not handicapped. I wrote a similar sign which I suggest they should put on their building: Dear user, the new building of Chever consumer club is an advanced building, which uses a three dimensional structure to offer you more content. Because certain wheelchairs do not support making use of the third dimension in the _standard_ way (i.e., walking up a staircase), and because people in weelchairs have relatives who can be sent instead (for free!) and because our survey shows that legs are in use for most of the public (over 80%), our building is usable for leg-users only. You are invited to install mechanic legs - for your convenience we include a reference to a good orthopedist. Not exactly a good analogy, because of the difficulty in obtaining and installing MSIE5 comparing to a mechanical leg (and now you should try explaining them why it is not availble for your spesific platform...) -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
Hi, On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:22:18PM +0300, Matan Ziv-Av wrote: [snip] On the same subject - is there a bank in israel that's it's online banking (internet or direct modem connection) is usefull within linux? I can connect to Bank Leumi with netscape on linux. The interface is English, but the content of the site is a 40% of Hebrew one. But in any case it is much better that Isracard :) Unfortunately their site is rendered wrong in konqueror, but I'm not sure which side is buggy. -- Matan Ziv-Av. [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Regards, Michael Rozhavsky Optical Access Senior Software Engineer Tel:+972-4-9936248 Fax:+972-4-9890564 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:www.opticalaccess.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
Matan Ziv-Av wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:
(Added note for IGLU: I presume that I'm not the only who has
to put up with this sort of crap ...)
And Isracard requires IE 5.0 *and* 800x600 screen resolution to view credit
info through the net.
Guys, I think we are a minority being ignored and harassed by companies.
Should we start an awareness campaign?
How about Cancelling your Isracard, ordering a Visa-cal instead, and
telling isracard what you did and why?
It should be more effective than an awareness campaign.
Visa-cal's site works OK with netscape, but unfortunately does not work
with konqueror. I am not sure if it is a konqueror bug or site design
bug yet.
On the same subject - is there a bank in israel that's it's online
banking (internet or direct modem connection) is usefull within linux?
--
Matan Ziv-Av. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I doubt it. I got Minibank from Mizrachi. It's got some security stuff which is strict
MS, and it is touted for Win 98 .
(It screwed up something in my Win 2000 partition that badly that I had to re-install,
but that's another sad story.)
Linux? I wonder if the folks at Mizrachi know what it is.
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Re: Vgames
Daniel Feiglin wrote: Matan Ziv-Av wrote: On the same subject - is there a bank in israel that's it's online banking (internet or direct modem connection) is usefull within linux? Matan Ziv-Av. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I doubt it. I got Minibank from Mizrachi. It's got some security stuff which is strict MS, and it is touted for Win 98 . (It screwed up something in my Win 2000 partition that badly that I had to re-install, but that's another sad story.) Linux? I wonder if the folks at Mizrachi know what it is. I use Bank Hapoalim's, beside some Hebrew problem it works On Netscape 4.76 On RedHat 6.2 ( Whatever that means ) --ury = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Vgames
I doubt it. I got Minibank from Mizrachi. It's got some security stuff which is strict MS, and it is touted for Win 98 . (It screwed up something in my Win 2000 partition that badly that I had to re-install, but that's another sad story.) Linux? I wonder if the folks at Mizrachi know what it is. I use Bank Hapoalim's, beside some Hebrew problem it works On Netscape 4.76 On RedHat 6.2 ( Whatever that means ) That's what community is for! Now Daniel can ask his bank for a decent service, because he can tell them that he has other options... = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: I also saw another site, http://www.mcc.co.il/, which insists to not work with Netscape (not just provide you a worse experience - it doesn't work at all giving you a message about). It tells you something like the following, in Hebrew (look at the actual site with Netscape for the original text): ( how do I chenge the browser ID in netscape 4.x? I had no problem browsing it using lynx, so it probably looks in the browser-ID for netscape) It gives the same error message when I try to view the site using Konqueror. worse - on my Mandrake 8.0, KDE 2.1.1, Konqueror crashes imidietly after rendering the message. Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
TC Actually the latest news is that the newest nightly builds of mozilla TC /should/ contain bidi support compiled in (haven't tried it yet. just read TC a message in a newgroup). Does this mean there's a chance 0.9.[12] will have BiDi in? Can I already order wine and candies to celebrate? :) TC Netscape 4.x is indeed a problematic browser, with hebrew and with other TC issues. It has been under-developed for a couple of years now... Calling this pile of crap problematic browser is a great mercy to it. It never was out of beta. It's stability would make Microsoft BSOD division blush. It's standard compliance never existed. And it has blink tag. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
MR Unfortunately their site is rendered wrong in konqueror, but I'm MR not sure which side is buggy. I fear it's Konq. I saw a number of sites rendered OK with Mozilla but bad with Konq. Or Mozilla is very forgiving (which rises aquestion why Konq isn't), or Konq is buggy. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
Calling this pile of crap problematic browser is a great mercy to it. It never was out of beta. It's stability would make Microsoft BSOD division blush. It's standard compliance never existed. And it has blink tag. What's wrong with the blink tag? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:36:25PM -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: blush. It's standard compliance never existed. And it has blink tag. What's wrong with the blink tag? Exactly. That is EXACTLY what is wrong with the blink tag. Some benighted soul has the temerity to use the blink tag and not understand the depravity of the mechanism. Oh tempora, oh mores! -- ---MAV Linguists Do It Cunningly Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vgames
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:24:28PM +0300, Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote: TC Actually the latest news is that the newest nightly builds of mozilla TC /should/ contain bidi support compiled in (haven't tried it yet. just read TC a message in a newgroup). Does this mean there's a chance 0.9.[12] will have BiDi in? Can I already order wine and candies to celebrate? :) Yes, BiDi support is available in the latest Nightly, along with numerous other enhancements which didn't make it into 0.9 (a new cooler version of Modern theme, IE-like offer to search for in the autocomplete popup etc.) Unfortunately, BiDi support is horribly buggy and kept crashing on trivial sites, unlike Konqueror. Crashes were especially common on Hebrew sites. We can all try and elevate those issues for main attention by downloading a Talkback-enabled version and sending every crash event we experience. Redundant is not bad here -- it actually just increases the importance of the same bug! As to KHTML (used by Konq), it's much more forgiving than Mozilla. Heck, it implements a 'document.all' object (for IE compatibility)! -- Best regards, Ilya Konstantinov = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
