Re: Kernel HOWTO update?

[Ben Ford]

Shawn Starr wrote:

>Section:
>7.6 You forgot to run LILO, or system doesn't boot at all
>
>You might want to update the following line:
>
>"Using LILO with big drives (more than 1024 cylinders) can cause problems.
>See the LILO mini-HOWTO or documentation for help on that."
>
>This isn't true anymore unless your using an older version of LILO.
>
Or an old hard drive.

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Kernel HOWTO update?

[Ben Ford]

Shawn Starr wrote:

Section:
7.6 You forgot to run LILO, or system doesn't boot at all

You might want to update the following line:

Using LILO with big drives (more than 1024 cylinders) can cause problems.
See the LILO mini-HOWTO or documentation for help on that.

This isn't true anymore unless your using an older version of LILO.

Or an old hard drive.

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Paul Mundt wrote:

>On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
>
>>Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
>>deal with microsoftisms.
>>
>This depends on your definition of dealing with MSisms. If you mean having a
>copy of an MS product physically present at a business location, that's
>pretty much unavoidable.
>
>If you mean working at a place where you yourself don't have to deal with it,
>it all depends what line of work you're in. If you're some form of management
>person, you might choose to work with Word because everyone else does, but
>that goes back to it being your decision.
>
>I can think of a lot of companies, such as WindRiver, QSSL, etc. where there
>may be some level of involvement, but not everyone working in the company is
>forced into things.
>

I almost guarantee you that they get word docs in email.  And I bet you 
that most of them have been hit by the microsoft scripting viruses. 
 Even if they don't use outlook, they still get hit by the mails of 
those who do.

>>It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
>>used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
>>and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
>> Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
>>machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
>>bullshit she went through.
>>
>What a petty thing to hate a corporation over. If you're using a company's
>product of your own free will, any issues that might arise out of using
>the product is something you accepted when you purchased the product.
>
>Not knowing ones options is also not the fault of MS. If you don't do your
>research before getting into something, and you get screwed as a result, it's
>your own fault for not looking into things before making a decision.
>

It kind of is the fault of MS.  That is why they have so many marketing 
people.  Remember the DR-DOS thing where you'd get misinforming errors 
if you didn't run MS-DOS, inmplying that anything but was inferior and 
was gonna cause you all kinds of hell?

Of course, if you knew anything about it, you knew that it was bullshit. 
 But you expect the entire world of non-computer people to know this??? 
 What kind of crack are you smoking?

It also isn't "your own free will".  Remember the licensing agreements 
where the royalties paid to Microsoft were based on the number of 
computer systems sold whether or not they had windows on them?  So if 
you bought a computer system (95% of the end users out there buy them 
pre-built) you paid for windows whether you used it or not.  And if you 
wanted something else you paid for TWO operating systems.  Even now, it 
is quite a challenge to purchase a computer system without buying a copy 
of windows.

>>Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
>>personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
>>of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.
>>
>What does that have to do with anything? Someone makes some many, and they're
>suddenly the cause of world hunger because they could donate all their money
>but don't? This is also a moronic statement, as I seem to recall Gates
>starting up a foundation for such things, and donating money to charity.
>
>While I may not like alot of the things that MS does, or care for how Gates
>does business, I'm still not going to try and blame the worlds problems on
>him simply because he does some things I don't like.
>

The point is,  . . . that money came from somewhere . . . . .

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

>
>
>It's hard to understand the point of such arguments. Surely you shouldn't
>be upset at someone for providing you the best option you have, should you?
>

The point is they aren't offering the best solution!  They are taking 
away all others!  That is why people dislike the company.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Jesse Pollard wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>>
>>>I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed 
>>>for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
>>>
>>No, but you might be forced out of a job.
>>
>
>Apologies for the followup to a followup:
>
>You might be if the life monitoring sensors in surgury suddenly need
>to be "registered with MS, or ... will be shutdown..."  ;-)
>

Or a BSOD.

This seems to be meant as a joke, but I don't think it's all that unlikely.

I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control 
rooms for this reason.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Paul Mundt wrote:

>On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:35:24PM -0400, Adam Schrotenboer wrote:
>
>>So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
>>What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
>>
>You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
>working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
>MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.
>

Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
deal with microsoftisms.

[ . . . ]

>>When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
>>and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.
>>
>This makes absolutely no sense. You didn't have a problem with MS originally,
>but as soon as Win95 came out you instantly hated them? A few issues with an
>OS are hardly valid grounds for "hating" a company.
>
>Also, I don't see how once you discovered Linux your hatred for MS grew. This
>also makes very little sense. If you were sitting there using MS products of
>
It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
 Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
bullshit she went through.


[ . . . ]

>Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
>countries can't afford licenses of win2k.
>

Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.

(Disclaimer:  This statistic was from 2 or 3 years ago.  I don't know 
what the figures are now.)

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Paul Mundt wrote:

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:35:24PM -0400, Adam Schrotenboer wrote:

So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.

You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.


Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
deal with microsoftisms.

[ . . . ]

When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.

This makes absolutely no sense. You didn't have a problem with MS originally,
but as soon as Win95 came out you instantly hated them? A few issues with an
OS are hardly valid grounds for hating a company.

Also, I don't see how once you discovered Linux your hatred for MS grew. This
also makes very little sense. If you were sitting there using MS products of

It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
 Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
bullshit she went through.


[ . . . ]

Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
countries can't afford licenses of win2k.


Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.

(Disclaimer:  This statistic was from 2 or 3 years ago.  I don't know 
what the figures are now.)

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Jesse Pollard wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:

I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed 
for using a different OS, I still have a choice.

No, but you might be forced out of a job.


Apologies for the followup to a followup:

You might be if the life monitoring sensors in surgury suddenly need
to be registered with MS, or ... will be shutdown...  ;-)


Or a BSOD.

This seems to be meant as a joke, but I don't think it's all that unlikely.

I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control 
rooms for this reason.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

It's hard to understand the point of such arguments. Surely you shouldn't
be upset at someone for providing you the best option you have, should you?


The point is they aren't offering the best solution!  They are taking 
away all others!  That is why people dislike the company.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Paul Mundt wrote:

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:

Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
deal with microsoftisms.

This depends on your definition of dealing with MSisms. If you mean having a
copy of an MS product physically present at a business location, that's
pretty much unavoidable.

If you mean working at a place where you yourself don't have to deal with it,
it all depends what line of work you're in. If you're some form of management
person, you might choose to work with Word because everyone else does, but
that goes back to it being your decision.

I can think of a lot of companies, such as WindRiver, QSSL, etc. where there
may be some level of involvement, but not everyone working in the company is
forced into things.


I almost guarantee you that they get word docs in email.  And I bet you 
that most of them have been hit by the microsoft scripting viruses. 
 Even if they don't use outlook, they still get hit by the mails of 
those who do.

It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
 Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
bullshit she went through.

What a petty thing to hate a corporation over. If you're using a company's
product of your own free will, any issues that might arise out of using
the product is something you accepted when you purchased the product.

Not knowing ones options is also not the fault of MS. If you don't do your
research before getting into something, and you get screwed as a result, it's
your own fault for not looking into things before making a decision.


It kind of is the fault of MS.  That is why they have so many marketing 
people.  Remember the DR-DOS thing where you'd get misinforming errors 
if you didn't run MS-DOS, inmplying that anything but was inferior and 
was gonna cause you all kinds of hell?

Of course, if you knew anything about it, you knew that it was bullshit. 
 But you expect the entire world of non-computer people to know this??? 
 What kind of crack are you smoking?

It also isn't your own free will.  Remember the licensing agreements 
where the royalties paid to Microsoft were based on the number of 
computer systems sold whether or not they had windows on them?  So if 
you bought a computer system (95% of the end users out there buy them 
pre-built) you paid for windows whether you used it or not.  And if you 
wanted something else you paid for TWO operating systems.  Even now, it 
is quite a challenge to purchase a computer system without buying a copy 
of windows.

Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.

What does that have to do with anything? Someone makes some many, and they're
suddenly the cause of world hunger because they could donate all their money
but don't? This is also a moronic statement, as I seem to recall Gates
starting up a foundation for such things, and donating money to charity.

While I may not like alot of the things that MS does, or care for how Gates
does business, I'm still not going to try and blame the worlds problems on
him simply because he does some things I don't like.


The point is,  . . . that money came from somewhere . . . . .

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Cosmetic JFFS patch.

[Ben Ford]

David Woodhouse wrote:

>
>Also consider the question "What was the last thing you see on screen 
>before it reboots?"
>

USER: A bunch of words.
TECH: What words?
USER: Dunno, there were a lot though.

;)

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Cosmetic JFFS patch.

[Ben Ford]

David Woodhouse wrote:


Also consider the question What was the last thing you see on screen 
before it reboots?


USER: A bunch of words.
TECH: What words?
USER: Dunno, there were a lot though.

;)

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: mounting a fs in two places at once?

[Ben Ford]

Chris Wedgwood wrote:

>On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:20:16AM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
>
>>Feature.  It actually makes it quite nice when you want to allow
>>chrooted user(s) access to a common directory, you just mount a
>>partition in all the users home dirs.
>>
>
>For security, this can be a bad idea.
>

'tis very true.

I have been using this for FTP users, such as allowing a common /mp3 
download directory relative to each users jail.  That is what I was 
referring to, should have been more specific.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: mounting a fs in two places at once?

[Ben Ford]

Chris Wedgwood wrote:

On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:20:16AM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:

Feature.  It actually makes it quite nice when you want to allow
chrooted user(s) access to a common directory, you just mount a
partition in all the users home dirs.


For security, this can be a bad idea.


'tis very true.

I have been using this for FTP users, such as allowing a common /mp3 
download directory relative to each users jail.  That is what I was 
referring to, should have been more specific.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: The Joy of Forking

[Ben Ford]

Rick Hohensee wrote:

>>desktops to worry about. Desktops are an application, not part of Linux at all
>>It is becoming better for the administrator. As better desktops are developed,
>>it is becoming for "user friendly".
>>
>
>Thanks for replying civilly to something you clearly don't agree with.
>Basically, your reply says to me that kernel hackers can't imagine unix as
>an end-user OS. Your points are all "that will suck as a server". Of
>course. A solid true multi-user open source operating system is a solid
>base for a variety of things.
>

http://www.atheos.cx/
http://www.be.com/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/


-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: mounting a fs in two places at once?

[Ben Ford]

Marty Leisner wrote:

>
>/dev/hda10 on /mnt type ext2 (rw)
>/dev/hda10 on /home type ext2 (rw)
>
>
>Is this a feature or a bug?
>

Feature.  It actually makes it quite nice when you want to allow 
chrooted user(s) access to a common directory, you just mount a 
partition in all the users home dirs.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: mounting a fs in two places at once?

[Ben Ford]

Marty Leisner wrote:


/dev/hda10 on /mnt type ext2 (rw)
/dev/hda10 on /home type ext2 (rw)


Is this a feature or a bug?


Feature.  It actually makes it quite nice when you want to allow 
chrooted user(s) access to a common directory, you just mount a 
partition in all the users home dirs.

-b

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: The Joy of Forking

[Ben Ford]

Rick Hohensee wrote:

desktops to worry about. Desktops are an application, not part of Linux at all
It is becoming better for the administrator. As better desktops are developed,
it is becoming for user friendly.


Thanks for replying civilly to something you clearly don't agree with.
Basically, your reply says to me that kernel hackers can't imagine unix as
an end-user OS. Your points are all that will suck as a server. Of
course. A solid true multi-user open source operating system is a solid
base for a variety of things.


http://www.atheos.cx/
http://www.be.com/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/


-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: One more ZDNet article with BillG hammering Linux and Open Source.

[Ben Ford]

Miles Lane wrote:

>http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2777283,00.html
>
[ . . . ]

>
>BillG -- We keep making it easier and easier, and anything people want source
>code for, we'll figure out a way to get it to them. It's kind of a strange
>thing in a way because most commercial customers don't want to recompile
>kernels or things like that. But they want to be able to know that things can
>be supported. 
>
>We have some very cool tools now where we don't have to ship you the source.
>You can debug online, through the Internet. So it means you don't have to get
>a bunch of CDs. If you really want it for debugging and patching things, we
>can do that through the Internet. That's a real breakthrough in terms of
>simple source access. I don't know that anyone has ever asked for the source
>code for Word. If they did, we would give it to them. But it's not a typical
>request. 
>-
>

Hey, Bill, here's my address, can you ship me the full source to Word?

;)

-- 
:__o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: One more ZDNet article with BillG hammering Linux and Open Source.

[Ben Ford]

Miles Lane wrote:

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2777283,00.html

[ . . . ]


BillG -- We keep making it easier and easier, and anything people want source
code for, we'll figure out a way to get it to them. It's kind of a strange
thing in a way because most commercial customers don't want to recompile
kernels or things like that. But they want to be able to know that things can
be supported. 

We have some very cool tools now where we don't have to ship you the source.
You can debug online, through the Internet. So it means you don't have to get
a bunch of CDs. If you really want it for debugging and patching things, we
can do that through the Internet. That's a real breakthrough in terms of
simple source access. I don't know that anyone has ever asked for the source
code for Word. If they did, we would give it to them. But it's not a typical
request. 
-


Hey, Bill, here's my address, can you ship me the full source to Word?

;)

-- 
:__o
:   -\,
:   0/ 0
---



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [kbuild-devel] Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Mike Castle wrote:

>On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 02:29:17AM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
>
>>distributions). 18 months is more realistic for it to be deployed
>>widely enough.
>>
>
>People who are going to be savvy enough to install a development 2.5.*
>kernel that is defining a new configuration utility are going to be savvy
>enough to install python.
>
>mrc
>
Not only that, but Alan said that somebody is rewriting it in C.

-- 
 "One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet." 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [kbuild-devel] Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Mike Castle wrote:

On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 02:29:17AM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:

distributions). 18 months is more realistic for it to be deployed
widely enough.


People who are going to be savvy enough to install a development 2.5.*
kernel that is defining a new configuration utility are going to be savvy
enough to install python.

mrc

Not only that, but Alan said that somebody is rewriting it in C.

-- 
 One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Alan Cox wrote:

>>Second, how many kernels does Redhat ship in order to have one for 
>>386/486/586/k6/Athlon . . . .
>>Quite a pain in the ass.  And look at how much shit has to be built in 
>>in order to get a kernel that works for everybody!  People bitch at 
>>Microsoft for doing it, then turn around and do the same thing.
>>
>
>No people bitch at microsoft for precisely the opposite - not including a
>way to build fully optimised setups for each cpu type - not including all the
>stuff that is needed (try a generic win2k install on a vaio one day)
>
>I think you have your facts backwards
>
>Alan
>

No, my point was, if I don't have SCSI or RAID on this box, I don't want 
them to be built into the kernel!

In other words, "stuff I don't need, just like Microsoft".

-b

-- 
 "One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet." 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Pete Zaitcev wrote:

>>[about Aunt Tullie]
>>Because, for example, a kernel compile can be a part of the standard 
>>install now, and you will end up with a kernel built specifically for 
>>your machine that doesn't print 50 initialization failed messages on boot.
>>[...]
>>And you can also now run a kernel built for your shiny new Athlon, not 
>>the old piece of shit that was hot stuff in '92.
>>
>
>It is way too easy to crush your example, by pointing out that
>Red Hat ships and automatically installs an Athlon-optimized kernel.
>
>However, the argument above is wrong even if Red Hat did not.
>We are talking about CML2 and interaction with Aunt Tullie.
>This has nothing to do with automated rebuild at install time.
>
>-- Pete
>

First off, the lady's name was Tillie ;)

Second, how many kernels does Redhat ship in order to have one for 
386/486/586/k6/Athlon . . . .
Quite a pain in the ass.  And look at how much shit has to be built in 
in order to get a kernel that works for everybody!  People bitch at 
Microsoft for doing it, then turn around and do the same thing.

And nobody said anything about an automated rebuild.

I said a custom kernel build at install time.  I said nothing about 
having it automated.  I wouldn't trust an automated build anyways, 
especially if it came from Redhat.  With the philosophy ESR is aiming 
at, it would be all to easy to ask the user if they'd like to build a 
custom kernel, then present them with Eric's interface.  And that has 
everything to do with interaction with good ole Aunt Tillie.

-b

-- 
 "One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet." 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Pete Zaitcev wrote:

[about Aunt Tullie]
Because, for example, a kernel compile can be a part of the standard 
install now, and you will end up with a kernel built specifically for 
your machine that doesn't print 50 initialization failed messages on boot.
[...]
And you can also now run a kernel built for your shiny new Athlon, not 
the old piece of shit that was hot stuff in '92.


It is way too easy to crush your example, by pointing out that
Red Hat ships and automatically installs an Athlon-optimized kernel.

However, the argument above is wrong even if Red Hat did not.
We are talking about CML2 and interaction with Aunt Tullie.
This has nothing to do with automated rebuild at install time.

-- Pete


First off, the lady's name was Tillie ;)

Second, how many kernels does Redhat ship in order to have one for 
386/486/586/k6/Athlon . . . .
Quite a pain in the ass.  And look at how much shit has to be built in 
in order to get a kernel that works for everybody!  People bitch at 
Microsoft for doing it, then turn around and do the same thing.

And nobody said anything about an automated rebuild.

I said a custom kernel build at install time.  I said nothing about 
having it automated.  I wouldn't trust an automated build anyways, 
especially if it came from Redhat.  With the philosophy ESR is aiming 
at, it would be all to easy to ask the user if they'd like to build a 
custom kernel, then present them with Eric's interface.  And that has 
everything to do with interaction with good ole Aunt Tillie.

-b

-- 
 One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Alan Cox wrote:

Second, how many kernels does Redhat ship in order to have one for 
386/486/586/k6/Athlon . . . .
Quite a pain in the ass.  And look at how much shit has to be built in 
in order to get a kernel that works for everybody!  People bitch at 
Microsoft for doing it, then turn around and do the same thing.


No people bitch at microsoft for precisely the opposite - not including a
way to build fully optimised setups for each cpu type - not including all the
stuff that is needed (try a generic win2k install on a vaio one day)

I think you have your facts backwards

Alan


No, my point was, if I don't have SCSI or RAID on this box, I don't want 
them to be built into the kernel!

In other words, stuff I don't need, just like Microsoft.

-b

-- 
 One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [kbuild-devel] Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

>"Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
>
>>
>>an old interface in amber do anything to explore new UI possibilities?
>>
>
>kernel != GUI
>

UI != GUI

-- 
 "One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet." 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Charles Cazabon wrote:

>Eric S. Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Arjan van de Ven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>>Aunt Tillie doesn't even know what a kernel is, nor does she want
>>>to. I think it's fair to assume that people who configure and
>>>compile their own kernel (as opposed to using the distribution
>>>supplied ones) know what they are doing.
>>>
>>I'd like to break these assumptions.  Or at the very least see how far
>>they can be bent.  I know this sounds crazy to a lot of hackers, but 
>>I think there's a certain amount of unhelpful elitism and self-puffery
>>in the "kernels are hard to configure and they *should* be hard to 
>>configure* attitude.  Let's give Aunt Tillie a chance to surprise us.
>>
>
>Whether this is desirable or not is debatable.  The big question is:  why on
>earth would Aunt Tillie _want_ to compile a kernel at all, let alone
>re-configure one?  If she's using Linux, she's installing her distribution's
>pre-compiled kernel, and has no need for anything else.
>
>Simplifying the configuration interface so that "anyone" can use it seems like
>a waste of effort.  If there's an interested novice out there who wants to
>learn how to configure a kernel, they'll be sufficiently interested to invest
>an hour or two in learning how the whole process works.  Make it as simple as
>it needs to be, and no simpler.
>
>Charles
>
Because, for example, a kernel compile can be a part of the standard 
install now, and you will end up with a kernel built specifically for 
your machine that doesn't print 50 initialization failed messages on boot.

Libranet (Debian offshoot) does that already.  It is the only distro 
that I know of that does this.  This also makes it about a thousand 
times easier for distributions.  They don't have to write huge (have you 
ever looked at Redhat scripts??) init scripts to cover every single 
possibility and load any module you might need.  It's built into the 
kernel, the way it should be!

And you can also now run a kernel built for your shiny new Athlon, not 
the old piece of shit that was hot stuff in '92.

-b

-- 
 "One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet." 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Charles Cazabon wrote:

Eric S. Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Arjan van de Ven [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

Aunt Tillie doesn't even know what a kernel is, nor does she want
to. I think it's fair to assume that people who configure and
compile their own kernel (as opposed to using the distribution
supplied ones) know what they are doing.

I'd like to break these assumptions.  Or at the very least see how far
they can be bent.  I know this sounds crazy to a lot of hackers, but 
I think there's a certain amount of unhelpful elitism and self-puffery
in the kernels are hard to configure and they *should* be hard to 
configure* attitude.  Let's give Aunt Tillie a chance to surprise us.


Whether this is desirable or not is debatable.  The big question is:  why on
earth would Aunt Tillie _want_ to compile a kernel at all, let alone
re-configure one?  If she's using Linux, she's installing her distribution's
pre-compiled kernel, and has no need for anything else.

Simplifying the configuration interface so that anyone can use it seems like
a waste of effort.  If there's an interested novice out there who wants to
learn how to configure a kernel, they'll be sufficiently interested to invest
an hour or two in learning how the whole process works.  Make it as simple as
it needs to be, and no simpler.

Charles

Because, for example, a kernel compile can be a part of the standard 
install now, and you will end up with a kernel built specifically for 
your machine that doesn't print 50 initialization failed messages on boot.

Libranet (Debian offshoot) does that already.  It is the only distro 
that I know of that does this.  This also makes it about a thousand 
times easier for distributions.  They don't have to write huge (have you 
ever looked at Redhat scripts??) init scripts to cover every single 
possibility and load any module you might need.  It's built into the 
kernel, the way it should be!

And you can also now run a kernel built for your shiny new Athlon, not 
the old piece of shit that was hot stuff in '92.

-b

-- 
 One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [kbuild-devel] Re: CML2 design philosophy heads-up

[Ben Ford]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

Eric S. Raymond wrote:


an old interface in amber do anything to explore new UI possibilities?


kernel != GUI


UI != GUI

-- 
 One trend that bothers me is the glorification of
stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's 
alright not to know anything. That to me is far more 
dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. 
  - Carl Sagan



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Wow! Is memory ever cheap!

[Ben Ford]

H. Peter Anvin wrote:

>Larry McVoy wrote:
>
>>On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 12:33:57PM -0700, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
>>
>>>Larry McVoy wrote:
>>>
>Because your original post was "yeah, Bitkeeper is a memory hog but you
>can get really cheap non-ECC RAM so just stuff your system with crappy
>RAM and be happy."
>
>>>I wasn't the one who said it, you did.  I don't have any evidence either
>>>way.
>>>
>>Err, Peter, it's starting to sound like you have some ax to grind that I
>>don't know about.  So I'll bow out of this conversation.
>>
>
>The only axe I have to grind was the obvious application myopia of your
>original post... "my application is the only one that matters."  That's
>all.
>
>   -hpa
>


This is a 750Mhz K7 system with 1.5GB of memory in 3 512MB DIMMS.  The
DIMMS are not ECC, but we use BitKeeper here and it tells us when we
have bad DIMMS.

Guess what the memory cost?  $396.58 shipped to my door, second day air,
with a lifetime warranty.  I got it at www.memory4less.com 
 which I found
using www.pricewatch.com .  I have no association with 
either of those
places other than being a customer (i.e., this isn't advertising spam).

I'm burning it in right now, I wrote a little program which fills it
with different test patterns and then reads them back to make sure they
don't lose any bits.  Seems to be working, it's done about 30 passes.

1.5GB for $400.  Amazing.  No more whining from you guys that BitKeeper
uses too much memory  [:-)] 

$ hinv
Main memory size: 1535.9375 Mbytes
1 AuthenticAMD  processor
1 1.44M floppy drive
1 vga+ graphics device
1 keyboard
IDE devices:
/dev/hda is a ST310211A, 9541MB w/512kB Cache, CHS=1216/255/63
SCSI devices:
/dev/sda is a 3ware disk, model 3w- 74.541 GB
PCI bus devices:
Host bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C691 Apollo Pro (rev 2).
PCI bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C598 Apollo MVP3 AGP (rev 0).
ISA bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C686 Apollo Super (rev 34).
IDE interface: VIA Technologies VT 82C586 Apollo IDE (rev 16).
Host bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C686 Apollo Super ACPI (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
RAID storage controller: Unknown vendor Unknown device (rev 18).quote
VGA compatible controller: Matrox Matrox G200 AGP (rev 1).
-- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm



Lets move on now.

-- 
I'd rather listen to Newton than to Mundie [MS flunkie who made a speech on
the evil-ness of open source]. He may have been dead for almost three
hundred years, but despite that he stinks up the room less.

Linus

Re: Wow! Is memory ever cheap!

[Ben Ford]

H. Peter Anvin wrote:

Larry McVoy wrote:

On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 12:33:57PM -0700, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

Larry McVoy wrote:

Because your original post was yeah, Bitkeeper is a memory hog but you
can get really cheap non-ECC RAM so just stuff your system with crappy
RAM and be happy.

I wasn't the one who said it, you did.  I don't have any evidence either
way.

Err, Peter, it's starting to sound like you have some ax to grind that I
don't know about.  So I'll bow out of this conversation.


The only axe I have to grind was the obvious application myopia of your
original post... my application is the only one that matters.  That's
all.

   -hpa

quote

This is a 750Mhz K7 system with 1.5GB of memory in 3 512MB DIMMS.  The
DIMMS are not ECC, but we use BitKeeper here and it tells us when we
have bad DIMMS.

Guess what the memory cost?  $396.58 shipped to my door, second day air,
with a lifetime warranty.  I got it at www.memory4less.com 
http://www.memory4less.com which I found
using www.pricewatch.com http://www.pricewatch.com.  I have no association with 
either of those
places other than being a customer (i.e., this isn't advertising spam).

I'm burning it in right now, I wrote a little program which fills it
with different test patterns and then reads them back to make sure they
don't lose any bits.  Seems to be working, it's done about 30 passes.

1.5GB for $400.  Amazing.  No more whining from you guys that BitKeeper
uses too much memory  [:-)] 

$ hinv
Main memory size: 1535.9375 Mbytes
1 AuthenticAMD  processor
1 1.44M floppy drive
1 vga+ graphics device
1 keyboard
IDE devices:
/dev/hda is a ST310211A, 9541MB w/512kB Cache, CHS=1216/255/63
SCSI devices:
/dev/sda is a 3ware disk, model 3w- 74.541 GB
PCI bus devices:
Host bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C691 Apollo Pro (rev 2).
PCI bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C598 Apollo MVP3 AGP (rev 0).
ISA bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C686 Apollo Super (rev 34).
IDE interface: VIA Technologies VT 82C586 Apollo IDE (rev 16).
Host bridge: VIA Technologies VT 82C686 Apollo Super ACPI (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
Ethernet controller: 3Com 3C905B 100bTX (rev 48).
RAID storage controller: Unknown vendor Unknown device (rev 18).quote
VGA compatible controller: Matrox Matrox G200 AGP (rev 1).
-- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm

/quote

Lets move on now.

-- 
I'd rather listen to Newton than to Mundie [MS flunkie who made a speech on
the evil-ness of open source]. He may have been dead for almost three
hundred years, but despite that he stinks up the room less.

Linus

Re: [PATCH] CPU hot swap for 2.4.3 + s390 support

[Ben Ford]

Dwayne C. Litzenberger wrote:

>Hey, this is cool.
>
>How far away is the capability to "teleport" processes from one machine to
>another over the network?  Think of the uptime!
>

It is here.  Look at Mosix.

-- 
I'd rather listen to Newton than to Mundie [MS flunkie who made a speech on
the evil-ness of open source]. He may have been dead for almost three
hundred years, but despite that he stinks up the room less.

Linus



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [PATCH] CPU hot swap for 2.4.3 + s390 support

[Ben Ford]

Dwayne C. Litzenberger wrote:

Hey, this is cool.

How far away is the capability to teleport processes from one machine to
another over the network?  Think of the uptime!


It is here.  Look at Mosix.

-- 
I'd rather listen to Newton than to Mundie [MS flunkie who made a speech on
the evil-ness of open source]. He may have been dead for almost three
hundred years, but despite that he stinks up the room less.

Linus



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [PATCH] Single user linux

[Ben Ford]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
>
>On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Daniel Stone wrote:
>
>>Hence, Microsoft Windows. It might not be stable, it might not be fast, it
>>might not do RAID, packet-filtering and SQL, but it does a job. A simple
>>job. To give Mum & Dad(tm) (with apologies to maddog) a chance to use a
>>computer.
>>
>>
>>Since when, did mobile phones == computers?
>>
>
>read the news! i'm programming nokia 9210 with c++, is that
>computer enough?
>

If that is what this discussion is about, you may just be better off 
with a custom program to run instead of init.  Have you ever booted with 
init=/bin/bash?  Notice how it doesn't require a password . . . Use your 
own program here and you have no need of butchering the kernel.  Be much 
easier to maintain as well.

-b

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: [PATCH] Single user linux

[Ben Ford]

Tomas Telensky wrote:



>But, what I should say to the network security, is that AFAIK in the most
>of linux distributions the standard daemons (httpd, sendmail) are run as
>root! Having multi-user system or not! Why? For only listening to a port
><1024? Is there any elegant solution?
>

Yes, most daemons have the ability to switch user ID once they have 
bound tho the port.  Additionally, support is starting to show up for 
capabilities.  I know that ProFTPD has support.  Now, assuming it is 
running on a newer kernel, it never needs to be root, because it has 
been granted the capability to open a low port.  Even if it is cracked, 
it cannot do other things like . . . insert a kernel module, . . . 
overwrite /etc/passwd . . . . . etc

-b

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Current status of NTFS support

[Ben Ford]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
>Where does write support for NTFS stand at the moment?  I noticed that it's
>still marked "Dangerous" in the kernel configuration.  This is important to me
>because it looks like I'll have to start using it next week.  My office laptop
>is going to be "upgraded" from Windows 98 to 2000.  Of course, I hardly ever
>boot into Windows any more since installing a Linux partition last year.  But
>our corporate email standard forces me to use Lotus Notes, which I run under
>Wine.   The Notes executables and databases are installed on my Windows
>partition.  The upgrade, though, will involve wiping the hard drive, allocating
>the whole drive to a single NTFS partition, and reinstalling Notes after
>installing Windows 2000 .  That means bye-bye FAT32 partition and hello NTFS.  I
>can't mount it read-only because I'll still have to update my Notes databases
>from Linux.  So how risky is this?
>
>Also, I'll have to recreate my Linux partitions after the upgrade.  Does anyone
>know if FIPS can split a partition safely that was created under Windows
>2000/NT?  It worked fine for Windows 98, but I'm a little worried about what
>might happen if I try to use it on an NTFS partition.
>
>I'd appreciate any advice or help anyone can give me.  There's just no way I can
>stand going back to using anything but Linux for my daily work.
>

Why not just use FAT?  Windows2k supports it . . .

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Current status of NTFS support

[Ben Ford]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Where does write support for NTFS stand at the moment?  I noticed that it's
still marked "Dangerous" in the kernel configuration.  This is important to me
because it looks like I'll have to start using it next week.  My office laptop
is going to be "upgraded" from Windows 98 to 2000.  Of course, I hardly ever
boot into Windows any more since installing a Linux partition last year.  But
our corporate email standard forces me to use Lotus Notes, which I run under
Wine.   The Notes executables and databases are installed on my Windows
partition.  The upgrade, though, will involve wiping the hard drive, allocating
the whole drive to a single NTFS partition, and reinstalling Notes after
installing Windows 2000 .  That means bye-bye FAT32 partition and hello NTFS.  I
can't mount it read-only because I'll still have to update my Notes databases
from Linux.  So how risky is this?

Also, I'll have to recreate my Linux partitions after the upgrade.  Does anyone
know if FIPS can split a partition safely that was created under Windows
2000/NT?  It worked fine for Windows 98, but I'm a little worried about what
might happen if I try to use it on an NTFS partition.

I'd appreciate any advice or help anyone can give me.  There's just no way I can
stand going back to using anything but Linux for my daily work.


Why not just use FAT?  Windows2k supports it . . .

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time, please get better audio.

[Ben Ford]

Randolph Bentson wrote:

>On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:45:31PM -0700, Miles Lane wrote:
>
>>There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
>>Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
>>can be heard.
>>
>
>I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience
>microphone was put inside a Nerf ball.  It could
>then be tossed to the audience member who wished
>to speak.
>
That sounds more Linux-like  *lol*

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Let init know user wants to shutdown

[Ben Ford]

Simon Richter wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Pavel Machek wrote:
>
>>>Then a more general user space tool could be used that would do policy
>>>appropriate stuff, ending with init 0.
>>>
>>init _is_ the tool which is right for defining policy on such issues.
>>
>>Take a look how UPS managment is handled.
>>
>
>A power failure is a different thing from a power button press. There are
>users (me for example) who want to have something different then "init 0"
>mapped to the power button, for example a sleep state (since my box
>doesn't have a dedicated sleep button). I doubt there are many people who
>want something else than a shutdown if the power is out (although I think
>there will be with suspend-to-disk working, so we might have to change UPS
>handling here).
>
>My plan for power management was to have a special daemon that would
>decide what to do based on system state (battery status, local time, ...)
>and events (power/sleep button, last user logged out, ...) [I know that
>from a programmer's POV, both are events]. This daemon could, for example,
>make sure that no services are affected, for example by priming WOL and
>entering a not-so-deep sleep state instead of doing a suspend-to-disk if
>someone is still listening on a port after the "shutdown unimportant
>services" scripts have been run.
>
>   Simon
>
(root@qwerty)-(02:32pm Mon Apr 16)-(root)
# cat /etc/inittab | grep -1 CTRL

# Trap CTRL-ALT-DELETE
ca::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/shutdown -t3 -r now 


I believe that what is being referred to is similar.  In which case, you 
can put whatever the bleep you want here and do anything from popup a 
message saying, "Shutdown denied" to immediately poweroff.

-b

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Let init know user wants to shutdown

[Ben Ford]

Simon Richter wrote:

On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Pavel Machek wrote:

Then a more general user space tool could be used that would do policy
appropriate stuff, ending with init 0.

init _is_ the tool which is right for defining policy on such issues.

Take a look how UPS managment is handled.


A power failure is a different thing from a power button press. There are
users (me for example) who want to have something different then "init 0"
mapped to the power button, for example a sleep state (since my box
doesn't have a dedicated sleep button). I doubt there are many people who
want something else than a shutdown if the power is out (although I think
there will be with suspend-to-disk working, so we might have to change UPS
handling here).

My plan for power management was to have a special daemon that would
decide what to do based on system state (battery status, local time, ...)
and events (power/sleep button, last user logged out, ...) [I know that
from a programmer's POV, both are events]. This daemon could, for example,
make sure that no services are affected, for example by priming WOL and
entering a not-so-deep sleep state instead of doing a suspend-to-disk if
someone is still listening on a port after the "shutdown unimportant
services" scripts have been run.

   Simon

(root@qwerty)-(02:32pm Mon Apr 16)-(root)
# cat /etc/inittab | grep -1 CTRL

# Trap CTRL-ALT-DELETE
ca::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/shutdown -t3 -r now 


I believe that what is being referred to is similar.  In which case, you 
can put whatever the bleep you want here and do anything from popup a 
message saying, "Shutdown denied" to immediately poweroff.

-b

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time, please get better audio.

[Ben Ford]

Randolph Bentson wrote:

On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:45:31PM -0700, Miles Lane wrote:

There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.


I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience
microphone was put inside a Nerf ball.  It could
then be tossed to the audience member who wished
to speak.

That sounds more Linux-like  *lol*

-- 
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Patched Micro$oft servers are secure today . . . but tomorrow is another story!



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: goodbye

[Ben Ford]

john slee wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 07:07:20PM -0700, Colonel wrote:
> 
>> Some ISPs rely on crap software & OS to process email, and have other
> 
> 
> so you don't use those ISPs

Some people don't have a choice of ISPs.  Some people are lucky if they 
can even *get* dial-up.

-b



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: goodbye

[Ben Ford]

john slee wrote:

 On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 07:07:20PM -0700, Colonel wrote:
 
 Some ISPs rely on crap software  OS to process email, and have other
 
 
 so you don't use those ISPs

Some people don't have a choice of ISPs.  Some people are lucky if they 
can even *get* dial-up.

-b



-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: /proc/config idea

[Ben Ford]

J . A . Magallon wrote:

> On 04.03 Ben Ford wrote:
> 
>> J . A . Magallon wrote:
>> 
>>> If this has not been done for System.map, that is a much more important
>>> info for debug and oops, and the de facto standard is to put it aside
>>> kernel with some standadr naming, lets use the same method for config.
>>> 
>> That would be great and all, but can you tell me how to do it when I 
>> have 3 or 4 different compiles of the same kernel version?
>> 
> 
> Just like the Alan Cox for 2.4 or Andrea Arcangeli for 2.2. Lets say you
> have 2.4.2-ac27. For each of your compiles, set EXTRAVERSION to -ac27-bf1,
> -ac27-bf2, etc. Your files will be:
> vmlinuz-2.4.2-ac27-bfX
> System.map-2.4.2-ac27-bfX
> config-2.4.2-ac27-bfX
> 
Many thanks, I didn't know that.

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Minor 2.4.3 Adaptec Driver Problems

[Ben Ford]

Giuliano Pochini wrote:

>> I just got 2.4.3 up a running (on Abit BP6 Dual Celeron ) and
>> it reorderd my SCSI id's. Take a look. I don't like that my ZIP drive
>> becomes sda because if I ever remove it then I'll @#$% my harddrive dev
>> mappings again and have to change them again. Adaptec Driver 6.1.5
>> :-(
> 
> 
> That's what ext2 volume labels are for.
> 
> 
> Bye.
> 
If you use ext2 . . . .


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: /proc/config idea

[Ben Ford]

J . A . Magallon wrote:

> On 04.03 David Lang wrote:
> 
>> if the distro/sysadmin _always_ installs the kernel the 'right way' then
>> the difference isn't nessasarily that large, but if you want reliability
>> on any system it may be worth loosing a page or so of memory (hasn't
>> someone said that the data can be compressed to <1K?) make it so that you
>> need a common external tool to use the data and deliver it from the kernel
>> in compressed form and you don't even need to put the decompression
>> routine in the kernel (cat /proc/sys/kernel/config |gunzip >config)
>> 
> 
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> If this has not been done for System.map, that is a much more important
> info for debug and oops, and the de facto standard is to put it aside
> kernel with some standadr naming, lets use the same method for config.
> 
That would be great and all, but can you tell me how to do it when I 
have 3 or 4 different compiles of the same kernel version?

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: /proc/config idea

[Ben Ford]

J . A . Magallon wrote:

 On 04.03 David Lang wrote:
 
 if the distro/sysadmin _always_ installs the kernel the 'right way' then
 the difference isn't nessasarily that large, but if you want reliability
 on any system it may be worth loosing a page or so of memory (hasn't
 someone said that the data can be compressed to 1K?) make it so that you
 need a common external tool to use the data and deliver it from the kernel
 in compressed form and you don't even need to put the decompression
 routine in the kernel (cat /proc/sys/kernel/config |gunzip config)
 
 
 Just my 2 cents...
 
 If this has not been done for System.map, that is a much more important
 info for debug and oops, and the de facto standard is to put it aside
 kernel with some standadr naming, lets use the same method for config.
 
That would be great and all, but can you tell me how to do it when I 
have 3 or 4 different compiles of the same kernel version?

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Minor 2.4.3 Adaptec Driver Problems

[Ben Ford]

Giuliano Pochini wrote:

 I just got 2.4.3 up a running (on Abit BP6 Dual Celeron ) and
 it reorderd my SCSI id's. Take a look. I don't like that my ZIP drive
 becomes sda because if I ever remove it then I'll @#$% my harddrive dev
 mappings again and have to change them again. Adaptec Driver 6.1.5
 :-(
 
 
 That's what ext2 volume labels are for.
 
 
 Bye.
 
If you use ext2 . . . .


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: /proc/config idea

[Ben Ford]

J . A . Magallon wrote:

 On 04.03 Ben Ford wrote:
 
 J . A . Magallon wrote:
 
 If this has not been done for System.map, that is a much more important
 info for debug and oops, and the de facto standard is to put it aside
 kernel with some standadr naming, lets use the same method for config.
 
 That would be great and all, but can you tell me how to do it when I 
 have 3 or 4 different compiles of the same kernel version?
 
 
 Just like the Alan Cox for 2.4 or Andrea Arcangeli for 2.2. Lets say you
 have 2.4.2-ac27. For each of your compiles, set EXTRAVERSION to -ac27-bf1,
 -ac27-bf2, etc. Your files will be:
 vmlinuz-2.4.2-ac27-bfX
 System.map-2.4.2-ac27-bfX
 config-2.4.2-ac27-bfX
 
Many thanks, I didn't know that.

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[Fwd: [Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP withOUT your permission]

[Ben Ford]

What do people think about this?

-b


 Original Message 
Subject: [Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP 
withOUT your permission
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:39:31 -0400
From: Bryan-TheBS-Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: (Personal)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 Original Message 
From: Bryan-TheBS-Smith *
Subject: [Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP
withOUT your permission
Date:  2001 April 02

[Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP withOUT
your permission


USING A PASSPORT.COM-ENABLED SERVICE WILL DUAL-COPYRIGHT/LICENSE
YOUR ORIGINAL WORK

I just want to throw this out for *OFF-LIST* discussion.  I am
currently writing an article on the new licensing agreement at
Microsoft's Passport.COM.  What most people don't realize is that if
you use MSN, Hotmail, Expedia and, in some cases, just MS
IE/Outlook, you have _already_agreed_ to this license.  Why?  In the
case of MSN, Hotmail and Expedia, your passwords are stored on
Passport.COM (remember when Microsoft went down in late 1999 because
of their expiration of Passport.COM?).  I am still researching the
depth of Passport.COM's interaction with MS IE itself (seperate from
these services), and other Microsoft and non-Microsoft,
Internet-enabled software.

The problem?  In a nutshell, any outgoing information, software
and/or services of your original copyright/license/IP are "dual
copyrighted/licensed" to Microsoft c/o this new agreement.  This can
be _very_dangerous_ from the standpoint of free software
development.  Worse yet is the fact that no one currently knows to
what extent the Passport.COM licensing agreement applies, but it
seems all MSN, Hotmail and Expedia users are subject to it, possibly
all users of MS IE as well.


GPL DOES NOT OVERRIDE YOUR COPYRIGHTS (NOR YOUR ABILITY TO ASSIGN
THEM TO OTHERS)

Now you may think the GPL (and/or other GNU licensed works like the
LGPL, FDL, etc...) protects your work.  What you may not realize is
that Copyright Law is the _ultimate_ law.  The software that cracked
the encryption (really "uglification") and revealed the follies of
popular "Internet Filtering" software were perfect examples.  The
software was released GPL, but then revoked later.  How?  Because
the creators ultimately have "all rights reserved" to their
copyright, and can revoke any license at any time (like they did
when the popular filtering software vendors bought the rights). 
When you post, upload or otherwise transmit through a
Passport.COM-enabled service, you are effectively giving Microsoft
a non-exclusive, "blank 'copyright' check" to use your work.

Now one way you can "protect" your free software/works from being
submissive to this "hole" in Copyright Law is to assign all rights
to the Free Software Foundation.  In fact, this is exactly what the
FSF recommends you do with any GNU licensed work.  If you have not
done so already, consider doing this with any GPL, LGPL, FDL or
other GNU-licensed work that you do not plan to "dual-license"
yourself or other entity.


IS THIS AN "ANAL" STANCE?  MICROSOFT "REALITY CHECK":

Now before you think I'm going off an being "anal" on this, or
screaming "the sky is falling," realize the following:

1.  Many companies are looking for new avenues of revenue and the
"total forfeit" or "dual-copyright/licensure" of your
copyright/licenses/IP is nothing new.

2.  Microsoft (among others, even non-Windows vendors) have been
shown time and time again to be all for #1, and abusing the rights
of others in the name of profits.

3.  *BIG ONE*:  Anyone who has interviewed with Microsoft, or
visited the Microsoft campus knows that Microsoft's future goals
_include_ the revenue stream of _charging_you_ to even see your own
data!

4.  *ANOTHER*:  Microsoft has identified "dual-copyright/licensure"
as a key method to "bypassing" the "GPL virus."

5.  *MOST IMPORTANTLY*:  Microsoft is currently the biggest lobbyist
of the US government, and expends the most in legal costs of any
American company.  Lawyers are difference between something just
being just "unethical and not legally binding" and "unethical but
quite legal binding and quite enforcable."

#5 is what makes the Passport.COM licensing agreement the most
scary, even though it is nothing new in some circles.


WHAT SHOULD THE FREE SOFTWARE COMMUNITY DO TO COMBAT THIS?

Other than avoiding these services and any other that use
Passport.COM (which will only get harder and harder as .NET makes it
presence), there are some _real_issues_ to doing _anything_ on the
Internet that will require our action.  At least two key issues need
to be addressed (with possible solutions):

1.  "Identify" users who are using these services when they contact
your web site, archive, CVS repository, etc...  They need not only
be informed of these issues -- but they need to "sign" a "counter
agreement" that they agree 

[Fwd: [Copyright/Licensing] Dual-copyright/licensing of your IP withOUT your permission]

[Ben Ford]

What do people think about this?

-b


 Original Message 
Subject: [Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP 
withOUT your permission
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:39:31 -0400
From: Bryan-TheBS-Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: (Personal)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 Original Message 
From: Bryan-TheBS-Smith *
Subject: [Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP
withOUT your permission
Date:  2001 April 02

[Copyright/Licensing] "Dual-copyright/licensing" of your IP withOUT
your permission


USING A PASSPORT.COM-ENABLED SERVICE WILL DUAL-COPYRIGHT/LICENSE
YOUR ORIGINAL WORK

I just want to throw this out for *OFF-LIST* discussion.  I am
currently writing an article on the new licensing agreement at
Microsoft's Passport.COM.  What most people don't realize is that if
you use MSN, Hotmail, Expedia and, in some cases, just MS
IE/Outlook, you have _already_agreed_ to this license.  Why?  In the
case of MSN, Hotmail and Expedia, your passwords are stored on
Passport.COM (remember when Microsoft went down in late 1999 because
of their expiration of Passport.COM?).  I am still researching the
depth of Passport.COM's interaction with MS IE itself (seperate from
these services), and other Microsoft and non-Microsoft,
Internet-enabled software.

The problem?  In a nutshell, any outgoing information, software
and/or services of your original copyright/license/IP are "dual
copyrighted/licensed" to Microsoft c/o this new agreement.  This can
be _very_dangerous_ from the standpoint of free software
development.  Worse yet is the fact that no one currently knows to
what extent the Passport.COM licensing agreement applies, but it
seems all MSN, Hotmail and Expedia users are subject to it, possibly
all users of MS IE as well.


GPL DOES NOT OVERRIDE YOUR COPYRIGHTS (NOR YOUR ABILITY TO ASSIGN
THEM TO OTHERS)

Now you may think the GPL (and/or other GNU licensed works like the
LGPL, FDL, etc...) protects your work.  What you may not realize is
that Copyright Law is the _ultimate_ law.  The software that cracked
the encryption (really "uglification") and revealed the follies of
popular "Internet Filtering" software were perfect examples.  The
software was released GPL, but then revoked later.  How?  Because
the creators ultimately have "all rights reserved" to their
copyright, and can revoke any license at any time (like they did
when the popular filtering software vendors bought the rights). 
When you post, upload or otherwise transmit through a
Passport.COM-enabled service, you are effectively giving Microsoft
a non-exclusive, "blank 'copyright' check" to use your work.

Now one way you can "protect" your free software/works from being
submissive to this "hole" in Copyright Law is to assign all rights
to the Free Software Foundation.  In fact, this is exactly what the
FSF recommends you do with any GNU licensed work.  If you have not
done so already, consider doing this with any GPL, LGPL, FDL or
other GNU-licensed work that you do not plan to "dual-license"
yourself or other entity.


IS THIS AN "ANAL" STANCE?  MICROSOFT "REALITY CHECK":

Now before you think I'm going off an being "anal" on this, or
screaming "the sky is falling," realize the following:

1.  Many companies are looking for new avenues of revenue and the
"total forfeit" or "dual-copyright/licensure" of your
copyright/licenses/IP is nothing new.

2.  Microsoft (among others, even non-Windows vendors) have been
shown time and time again to be all for #1, and abusing the rights
of others in the name of profits.

3.  *BIG ONE*:  Anyone who has interviewed with Microsoft, or
visited the Microsoft campus knows that Microsoft's future goals
_include_ the revenue stream of _charging_you_ to even see your own
data!

4.  *ANOTHER*:  Microsoft has identified "dual-copyright/licensure"
as a key method to "bypassing" the "GPL virus."

5.  *MOST IMPORTANTLY*:  Microsoft is currently the biggest lobbyist
of the US government, and expends the most in legal costs of any
American company.  Lawyers are difference between something just
being just "unethical and not legally binding" and "unethical but
quite legal binding and quite enforcable."

#5 is what makes the Passport.COM licensing agreement the most
scary, even though it is nothing new in some circles.


WHAT SHOULD THE FREE SOFTWARE COMMUNITY DO TO COMBAT THIS?

Other than avoiding these services and any other that use
Passport.COM (which will only get harder and harder as .NET makes it
presence), there are some _real_issues_ to doing _anything_ on the
Internet that will require our action.  At least two key issues need
to be addressed (with possible solutions):

1.  "Identify" users who are using these services when they contact
your web site, archive, CVS repository, etc...  They need not only
be informed of these issues -- but they need to "sign" a "counter
agreement" that they agree to 

Re: bug database braindump from the kernel summit

[Ben Ford]

Why not have the /proc/config option but instead of being plain text, 
make it binary with a userspace app that can interpret it?

It could have a signature as to kernel version + patches and the rest 
would be just bits.

Instead of:

CONFIG_X86=y
CONFIG_ISA=y
# CONFIG_SBUS is not set
CONFIG_UID16=y

You'd have
2.4.3-pre3:110101 . . . . .

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: New directions for kernel development

[Ben Ford]

Chris Meadors wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, David Riley wrote:
> 
>> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> 
>>  Uhm, yeah... I don't know who wrote this, but it came from Washington
>> state and was written with MS Outlook... Something tells me that this
>> April Fool's joke wasn't Linus'. :-)
> 
> 
> Yeah, the quality of these jokes has really gone down hill.  Last year we
> had forged headers and composed with Pine.  This year we have someone with
> a dialup account using Outlook, with all it's ^Os and long lines of text.
> Bah.

Perhaps that was intended as part of the joke . . . .

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: New directions for kernel development

[Ben Ford]

Chris Meadors wrote:

 On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, David Riley wrote:
 
 Linus Torvalds wrote:
 
  Uhm, yeah... I don't know who wrote this, but it came from Washington
 state and was written with MS Outlook... Something tells me that this
 April Fool's joke wasn't Linus'. :-)
 
 
 Yeah, the quality of these jokes has really gone down hill.  Last year we
 had forged headers and composed with Pine.  This year we have someone with
 a dialup account using Outlook, with all it's ^Os and long lines of text.
 Bah.

Perhaps that was intended as part of the joke . . . .

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: bug database braindump from the kernel summit

[Ben Ford]

Why not have the /proc/config option but instead of being plain text, 
make it binary with a userspace app that can interpret it?

It could have a signature as to kernel version + patches and the rest 
would be just bits.

Instead of:

CONFIG_X86=y
CONFIG_ISA=y
# CONFIG_SBUS is not set
CONFIG_UID16=y

You'd have
2.4.3-pre3:110101 . . . . .

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Disturbing news..

[Ben Ford]

Simon Williams wrote:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Olivier Galibert
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:04:46PM +0100, Simon Williams wrote:
>> 
>>> I think their point was that a program could only change permissions
>>> of a file that was owned by the same owner.  If a file is owned by a
>>> different user & has no write permissions for any user, the program
>>> can't modify the file or it's permissions.
>> 
>> You mean, you usually have write permissions for other than the owner
>> on executable files?
>> 
>> Let me reformulate that.  You usually have write permissions for other
>> than the owner, and not only on some special, untrusted log files (I'm
>> talking files, here, not device nodes)?  What's your umask, 0?
>> 
> 
> Firstly, I'm relatively new to Linux (only about 3 yrs experience) &
> don't claim to be an expert.  Secondly, I don't think I stated my point
> very clearly.
> 
> No, I don't have write permissions set on an executable for any user
> other than the owner.
> 
> What I meant was that if a file is owned by root with permissions of,
> say, 555 (r-xr-xr-x), not setuid or setgid, then another executable
> run as a non-root user cannot modify it or change the permissions to
> 7 (rwx).

There are two problems I see here.  First, there are several known ways 
to elevate privileges.  If a virus can elevate privileges, then it owns 
you.  Second, this is a multi-OS virus.  If you dual-boot into Windows,  
any ELF files accessible can be infected.  With this one, that isn't a 
prob, but when somebody codes in an ext2 driver to their virus, then 
we've got issues.

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Disturbing news..

[Ben Ford]

Jesse Pollard wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Shawn Starr wrote:
> 
>> Well, why can't the ELF loader module/kernel detect or have some sort of
>> restriction on modifying other/ELF binaries including itself from changing
>> the Entry point?
>> 
>> There has to be a way stop this. WHY would anyone want to modify the entry
>> point anyway? (there may be some reasons but I really dont know what).
>> Even if it's user level, this cant affect files with root permissions
>> (unless root is running them or suid).
>> 
>> Any idea?
> 
> 
> Sure - very simple. If the execute bit is set on a file, don't allow
> ANY write to the file. This does modify the permission bits slightly
> but I don't think it is an unreasonable thing to have.
> 
What a pain in the ass when you are writing / updating a shell script . 
. . .

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Disturbing news..

[Ben Ford]

Jesse Pollard wrote:

 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Shawn Starr wrote:
 
 Well, why can't the ELF loader module/kernel detect or have some sort of
 restriction on modifying other/ELF binaries including itself from changing
 the Entry point?
 
 There has to be a way stop this. WHY would anyone want to modify the entry
 point anyway? (there may be some reasons but I really dont know what).
 Even if it's user level, this cant affect files with root permissions
 (unless root is running them or suid).
 
 Any idea?
 
 
 Sure - very simple. If the execute bit is set on a file, don't allow
 ANY write to the file. This does modify the permission bits slightly
 but I don't think it is an unreasonable thing to have.
 
What a pain in the ass when you are writing / updating a shell script . 
. . .

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Disturbing news..

[Ben Ford]

Simon Williams wrote:

 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Olivier Galibert
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:04:46PM +0100, Simon Williams wrote:
 
 I think their point was that a program could only change permissions
 of a file that was owned by the same owner.  If a file is owned by a
 different user  has no write permissions for any user, the program
 can't modify the file or it's permissions.
 
 You mean, you usually have write permissions for other than the owner
 on executable files?
 
 Let me reformulate that.  You usually have write permissions for other
 than the owner, and not only on some special, untrusted log files (I'm
 talking files, here, not device nodes)?  What's your umask, 0?
 
 
 Firstly, I'm relatively new to Linux (only about 3 yrs experience) 
 don't claim to be an expert.  Secondly, I don't think I stated my point
 very clearly.
 
 No, I don't have write permissions set on an executable for any user
 other than the owner.
 
 What I meant was that if a file is owned by root with permissions of,
 say, 555 (r-xr-xr-x), not setuid or setgid, then another executable
 run as a non-root user cannot modify it or change the permissions to
 7 (rwx).

There are two problems I see here.  First, there are several known ways 
to elevate privileges.  If a virus can elevate privileges, then it owns 
you.  Second, this is a multi-OS virus.  If you dual-boot into Windows,  
any ELF files accessible can be infected.  With this one, that isn't a 
prob, but when somebody codes in an ext2 driver to their virus, then 
we've got issues.

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ATAPI burner and IDE SCSI emulation

[Ben Ford]

I believe this has more to do with how the author of cdrecord chose to 
implement it rather than the kernel.  Why don't you speak to him?

-b

Andreas Franck wrote:

> Hello people,
> 
> after having "upgraded" (?) my distro from my wonderfully hand-configured 
> Debian system (which I unfortunately wrecked up lately) to S*SE 7.1, I'm now 
> really displeasured about the IDE-SCSI emulation thing for my ATAPI CD 
> roaster. Not that I was not able to set it up correctly, but being a bit 
> fastidious and used to be able to configure almost everything I wanted, 
> including what drivers I wanted to load, by choosing modules I was deeply 
> disappointed about the sof the IDE SCSI emulation driver, which seems really 
> baroque. 
> 
> For the unknowing, here are the general "newbie" steps nneded to make a 
> simple ATAPI CD roaster roast at all: Compile the kernel with IDE-SCSI 
> support enabled (or as a module), then you have to pass a mysterious 
> "hdx=ide-scsi" on the kernel commandline (through LILO or whatsoever), then 
> the "normal" IDE driver refuses to take any control over your CD burner. This 
> makes it possible for the IDE SCSI driver to take this job.
> 
> To actually USE my burner, it even gets more complicated (... I always speak 
> for the "Joe Blow" user, I have gone through all this and succeeded 
> finally...) - I have not only to load the SCSI CD-ROM driver to be able to 
> read any CDs with the burner, reset the /dev/cdrom (or /dev/cdburner) link 
> accordingly, but I also need this mysterious generic SCSI module loaded...
> 
> People, my say this is the biggest mess of configuration for me since I last 
> built up my first WNOS TCP/IP system, which was 7 years ago. And this is my 
> mission:
> 
> Clean this mess up. Make CD roasting work fine without this SCSI crap (sorry, 
> no offense intended, but from the "user perspective" its friendliness goes 
> far to -ininity...)
> 
> I'd appreciate any comments, am willing to take big slaps on my head from any 
> major wood part, and would like to know if anything/anyone is already working 
> towards this, or is doing any other tasks in this area.
> 
> Im particular I'd better look at the packet writing stuff (who's involved? 
> Jens Axboe?) before I start anything too big :) Again, any comments or 
> pointers to other projects are welcome, I can't wait to be able to toast CDs 
> on my machine without going through this nightmare again :-)
> 
> Greetings (and: please don't take anything personal or too serious, it's just 
> me being frustrated after having set up my system and nothing working 
> again...)
> 
> Andreas
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux Worm (fwd)

[Ben Ford]

What company was it that you worked for?  I'm sure we could convince 
them otherwise . . . .

-b


Gregory Maxwell wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:07:22AM -0500, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> [snip]
> 
>> I have just received notice that my machines will no longer be
>> provided access to "The Internet".
>> 
>> "Effective on or before 16:00:00 local time, the only personal
>> computers that will be allowed Internet access are those administered
>> by a Microsoft Certified Network Administrator. This means that
>> no Unix or Linux machines will be provided access beyond the local
>> area network. If you require Internet access, the company will
>> provide a PC which runs a secure operating system such as Microsoft
>> Windows, or Windows/NT. Insecure operating systems like Linux must
>> be removed from company owned computers before the end of this week."
> 
> 
> You've demonstrated over and over again that you work for a constantly
> stupid company. 
> 
> Please find someplace else to work, your issues have become more depressing
> then amusing. :)
> 
> It's sad that people like the one who sent out messages like that can stay
> employed. In the last year there have been several Windows love-bug type
> worms each causing damaged estimated in the billions. One or two Linux worms
> that go after a long fixed problem with no published accounts of significant
> damage and you get that sort of email..
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux Worm (fwd)

[Ben Ford]

What company was it that you worked for?  I'm sure we could convince 
them otherwise . . . .

-b


Gregory Maxwell wrote:

 On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:07:22AM -0500, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
 [snip]
 
 I have just received notice that my machines will no longer be
 provided access to "The Internet".
 
 "Effective on or before 16:00:00 local time, the only personal
 computers that will be allowed Internet access are those administered
 by a Microsoft Certified Network Administrator. This means that
 no Unix or Linux machines will be provided access beyond the local
 area network. If you require Internet access, the company will
 provide a PC which runs a secure operating system such as Microsoft
 Windows, or Windows/NT. Insecure operating systems like Linux must
 be removed from company owned computers before the end of this week."
 
 
 You've demonstrated over and over again that you work for a constantly
 stupid company. 
 
 Please find someplace else to work, your issues have become more depressing
 then amusing. :)
 
 It's sad that people like the one who sent out messages like that can stay
 employed. In the last year there have been several Windows love-bug type
 worms each causing damaged estimated in the billions. One or two Linux worms
 that go after a long fixed problem with no published accounts of significant
 damage and you get that sort of email..
 
 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
 Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ATAPI burner and IDE SCSI emulation

[Ben Ford]

I believe this has more to do with how the author of cdrecord chose to 
implement it rather than the kernel.  Why don't you speak to him?

-b

Andreas Franck wrote:

 Hello people,
 
 after having "upgraded" (?) my distro from my wonderfully hand-configured 
 Debian system (which I unfortunately wrecked up lately) to S*SE 7.1, I'm now 
 really displeasured about the IDE-SCSI emulation thing for my ATAPI CD 
 roaster. Not that I was not able to set it up correctly, but being a bit 
 fastidious and used to be able to configure almost everything I wanted, 
 including what drivers I wanted to load, by choosing modules I was deeply 
 disappointed about the sof the IDE SCSI emulation driver, which seems really 
 baroque. 
 
 For the unknowing, here are the general "newbie" steps nneded to make a 
 simple ATAPI CD roaster roast at all: Compile the kernel with IDE-SCSI 
 support enabled (or as a module), then you have to pass a mysterious 
 "hdx=ide-scsi" on the kernel commandline (through LILO or whatsoever), then 
 the "normal" IDE driver refuses to take any control over your CD burner. This 
 makes it possible for the IDE SCSI driver to take this job.
 
 To actually USE my burner, it even gets more complicated (... I always speak 
 for the "Joe Blow" user, I have gone through all this and succeeded 
 finally...) - I have not only to load the SCSI CD-ROM driver to be able to 
 read any CDs with the burner, reset the /dev/cdrom (or /dev/cdburner) link 
 accordingly, but I also need this mysterious generic SCSI module loaded...
 
 People, my say this is the biggest mess of configuration for me since I last 
 built up my first WNOS TCP/IP system, which was 7 years ago. And this is my 
 mission:
 
 Clean this mess up. Make CD roasting work fine without this SCSI crap (sorry, 
 no offense intended, but from the "user perspective" its friendliness goes 
 far to -ininity...)
 
 I'd appreciate any comments, am willing to take big slaps on my head from any 
 major wood part, and would like to know if anything/anyone is already working 
 towards this, or is doing any other tasks in this area.
 
 Im particular I'd better look at the packet writing stuff (who's involved? 
 Jens Axboe?) before I start anything too big :) Again, any comments or 
 pointers to other projects are welcome, I can't wait to be able to toast CDs 
 on my machine without going through this nightmare again :-)
 
 Greetings (and: please don't take anything personal or too serious, it's just 
 me being frustrated after having set up my system and nothing working 
 again...)
 
 Andreas
 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
 Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[Fwd: Problem with file => 2GB]

[Ben Ford]

This is forwarded from the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.  I think you
guys can answer this question better.  Please cc: them in any replies.

-b



"Fabio Pietrosanti (naif)" wrote:

> Hi ppl,
> i'm currently involved in the analisys of a compromised linux box.
> It was a IBM xSeries server.
>
> I transfer the partition of the server using cat /dev/partition| nc
> host_of_dump_storage 8889, then i check the checksum using md5sum and all it's
> ok.
>
> Where's the problem?
>
> There are 2 partition dump of 8GB .
> So i have to mount another 30GB hd, i installed Linux Kernel 2.4.2 with the
> 30gb on reiserfs .
> I recompiled all fileutils, util-linux and bin-utils with kernel 2.4.2 and the
> define for => 2GB file support .
>
> Ok, now i could download the partition, i could ls, more, strings the
> partition, but i need to use it as loop device!!
>
> When i mount the partition as loop device the mount command HANG on read()
> function... it seems that loop device under linux didn't work against => 2gb
> files ?
>
> Any solutions?
>
> Best Regards
>
> --
> Pietrosanti  Fabio  I.NET SpA, High Quality Access to the Internet
> e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   ( Direzione Tecnica, Security Staff )
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> PGP Key (DSS)   http://naif.itapac.net/naif.asc
>
> Home Page URL:http://www.inet.it
> Sede: Via Darwin, 85 20019 Settimo Milanese (MI)
> Tel:  02-328631   Fax: 02-328637701
> --
> Free advertising: www.openbsd.org - Multiplatform Ultra-secure OS

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux should better cope with power failure

[Ben Ford]

> Actually, I think /etc/mtab is not needed at all.   Originally, UNIX
> used to put as much onto the disk (and not in "core") as possible.
> so much state information related only to one boot-cycle was
> taken out of kernel and stored on disk.  /var/run/utmp, /etc/mtab,
> , rmtab,  and many others.  all are invalidated by a reboot, and are yet
> stored
> in non-volatile storage.  kernel memory is not swappable, so they manually
> separated out the minimum needed in core.
>
> Linux currently has a lot of this info in core, and maintains the disk files
> for backwards compatibility.  in the case of /etc/mtab, I believe
> /proc/mounts
> has the same info.  It appears to be in the same format as /etc/mtab,
> so most of the groundwork has already been done.
> i've considered trying just changing /etc/mtab to /proc/mounts in some
> utilities, to remove the need for read-write root.  This (and other cases)
> would guarantee consistency (look at /etc/mtab after restart in single
> user more - ugh)

It has been suggested to ln -sf /proc/mounts /etc/mtab.  Linus has said this, I
believe.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux should better cope with power failure

[Ben Ford]

 Actually, I think /etc/mtab is not needed at all.   Originally, UNIX
 used to put as much onto the disk (and not in "core") as possible.
 so much state information related only to one boot-cycle was
 taken out of kernel and stored on disk.  /var/run/utmp, /etc/mtab,
 , rmtab,  and many others.  all are invalidated by a reboot, and are yet
 stored
 in non-volatile storage.  kernel memory is not swappable, so they manually
 separated out the minimum needed in core.

 Linux currently has a lot of this info in core, and maintains the disk files
 for backwards compatibility.  in the case of /etc/mtab, I believe
 /proc/mounts
 has the same info.  It appears to be in the same format as /etc/mtab,
 so most of the groundwork has already been done.
 i've considered trying just changing /etc/mtab to /proc/mounts in some
 utilities, to remove the need for read-write root.  This (and other cases)
 would guarantee consistency (look at /etc/mtab after restart in single
 user more - ugh)

It has been suggested to ln -sf /proc/mounts /etc/mtab.  Linus has said this, I
believe.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[Fwd: Problem with file = 2GB]

[Ben Ford]

This is forwarded from the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.  I think you
guys can answer this question better.  Please cc: them in any replies.

-b



"Fabio Pietrosanti (naif)" wrote:

 Hi ppl,
 i'm currently involved in the analisys of a compromised linux box.
 It was a IBM xSeries server.

 I transfer the partition of the server using cat /dev/partition| nc
 host_of_dump_storage 8889, then i check the checksum using md5sum and all it's
 ok.

 Where's the problem?

 There are 2 partition dump of 8GB .
 So i have to mount another 30GB hd, i installed Linux Kernel 2.4.2 with the
 30gb on reiserfs .
 I recompiled all fileutils, util-linux and bin-utils with kernel 2.4.2 and the
 define for = 2GB file support .

 Ok, now i could download the partition, i could ls, more, strings the
 partition, but i need to use it as loop device!!

 When i mount the partition as loop device the mount command HANG on read()
 function... it seems that loop device under linux didn't work against = 2gb
 files ?

 Any solutions?

 Best Regards

 --
 Pietrosanti  Fabio  I.NET SpA, High Quality Access to the Internet
 e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   ( Direzione Tecnica, Security Staff )
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 PGP Key (DSS)   http://naif.itapac.net/naif.asc

 Home Page URL:http://www.inet.it
 Sede: Via Darwin, 85 20019 Settimo Milanese (MI)
 Tel:  02-328631   Fax: 02-328637701
 --
 Free advertising: www.openbsd.org - Multiplatform Ultra-secure OS

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Ben Ford]

> 
> On the other hand, they make excellent mice.  The mouse wheel and
> the new optical mice are truly innovative and Microsoft should be
> commended for them. 
> 
The wheel was a nifty idea, but I've seen workstations 15 years old with 
optical mice.  It wasn't MS's idea.

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Ben Ford]

Jacob Luna Lundberg wrote:

>> Speaking as a Linux _USER_, if this happens, can I get said print
>> engine working on my ARM machines with these closed source drivers?
>> Can Alpha users get this print system working?  Can Sparc uses
>> get it working?  What?  I can't?  They can't?  Well, its no good to
>> me nor them.  You've just made the system x86 specific.  Well done,
>> thats a step backwards, not forwards.
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why can't the specification be along the lines of a
> vendor data file saying ``if you want the printer to do x then say y'' and
> ``if the printer says x then it means y''.  That ought to add a lot of
> functionality right there.  Sure there are evil winprinters that this
> wouldn't be enough for but it would be hardware independant, yes?

isn't that what windows *.INF files do?
(don't flame me  I'm not sure about it)

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Ben Ford]

Jacob Luna Lundberg wrote:

 Speaking as a Linux _USER_, if this happens, can I get said print
 engine working on my ARM machines with these closed source drivers?
 Can Alpha users get this print system working?  Can Sparc uses
 get it working?  What?  I can't?  They can't?  Well, its no good to
 me nor them.  You've just made the system x86 specific.  Well done,
 thats a step backwards, not forwards.
 
 
 Just out of curiosity, why can't the specification be along the lines of a
 vendor data file saying ``if you want the printer to do x then say y'' and
 ``if the printer says x then it means y''.  That ought to add a lot of
 functionality right there.  Sure there are evil winprinters that this
 wouldn't be enough for but it would be hardware independant, yes?

isn't that what windows *.INF files do?
(don't flame me  I'm not sure about it)

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Ben Ford]

 
 On the other hand, they make excellent mice.  The mouse wheel and
 the new optical mice are truly innovative and Microsoft should be
 commended for them. 
 
The wheel was a nifty idea, but I've seen workstations 15 years old with 
optical mice.  It wasn't MS's idea.

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: test

[Ben Ford]

Roger Larsson wrote:

> OK, you had to...
>
> I have not seen any emails from linux-kernel for some days.
> Even tried to resubscribe - Majordomo succeeded in sending me the Confirmation
>
> But nothing...
>

I must be getting all yours then!!  Seriously, something's broke, I am getting
duplicates of *every* *freaking* lkml message!!

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: test

[Ben Ford]

Roger Larsson wrote:

 OK, you had to...

 I have not seen any emails from linux-kernel for some days.
 Even tried to resubscribe - Majordomo succeeded in sending me the Confirmation

 But nothing...


I must be getting all yours then!!  Seriously, something's broke, I am getting
duplicates of *every* *freaking* lkml message!!

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Better battery info/status files

[Ben Ford]

David Woodhouse wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, James Sutherland wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
> > > David Woodhouse wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, James Sutherland wrote:
>
> > For the end-user, the ability to see readings in other units would be
> > useful - how many people on this list work in litres/metres/kilometres,
> > and how many in gallons/feet/miles? Probably enough in both groups that
> > neither could count as universal...
>

>
> > > > Yeah. We can have this as part of the locale settings, changeable by
> > > > echoing the desired locale string to /proc/sys/kernel/lc_all.
> > >
> > > Just an idea, . .  but isn't this something better done in userland?
> >
> > That's what I'd do, anyway
>
> STOP!
>
> I'll repeat myself, in the en_US locale this time...
>
> 
> Yeah. We can have this as part of the locale settings, changeable by
> echoing the desired locale string to /proc/sys/kernel/lc_all.
> 
> Go away and troll elsewhere
>
> --
> dwmw2

You have an odd definition of troll.  Tell me, who is trolling, the guy who
posts something trying to help or the guy who posts sarcastic responses to
things?  You appear to have a major case of little-dick syndrome.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Better battery info/status files

[Ben Ford]

David Woodhouse wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, James Sutherland wrote:
>
> > For the end-user, the ability to see readings in other units would be
> > useful - how many people on this list work in litres/metres/kilometres,
> > and how many in gallons/feet/miles? Probably enough in both groups that
> > neither could count as universal...
>
> Yeah. We can have this as part of the locale settings, changable by
> echoing the desired locale string to /proc/sys/kernel/lc_all.
>
> -

Just an idea, . .  but isn't this something better done in userland?

(ben@Deacon)-(06:49am Sun Feb  4)-(ben)
$ date  +%s
981298161
(ben@Deacon)-(06:49am Sun Feb  4)-(ben)
$ date  +%c
Sun Feb  4 06:49:24 2001


-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Better battery info/status files

[Ben Ford]

David Woodhouse wrote:

 On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, James Sutherland wrote:

  For the end-user, the ability to see readings in other units would be
  useful - how many people on this list work in litres/metres/kilometres,
  and how many in gallons/feet/miles? Probably enough in both groups that
  neither could count as universal...

 Yeah. We can have this as part of the locale settings, changable by
 echoing the desired locale string to /proc/sys/kernel/lc_all.

 -

Just an idea, . .  but isn't this something better done in userland?

(ben@Deacon)-(06:49am Sun Feb  4)-(ben)
$ date  +%s
981298161
(ben@Deacon)-(06:49am Sun Feb  4)-(ben)
$ date  +%c
Sun Feb  4 06:49:24 2001


-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Better battery info/status files

[Ben Ford]

David Woodhouse wrote:

 On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, James Sutherland wrote:
  On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
   David Woodhouse wrote:

 On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, James Sutherland wrote:

  For the end-user, the ability to see readings in other units would be
  useful - how many people on this list work in litres/metres/kilometres,
  and how many in gallons/feet/miles? Probably enough in both groups that
  neither could count as universal...



Yeah. We can have this as part of the locale settings, changeable by
echoing the desired locale string to /proc/sys/kernel/lc_all.
  
   Just an idea, . .  but isn't this something better done in userland?
 
  That's what I'd do, anyway

 STOP!

 I'll repeat myself, in the en_US locale this time...

 SARCASM
 Yeah. We can have this as part of the locale settings, changeable by
 echoing the desired locale string to /proc/sys/kernel/lc_all.
 /SARCASM
 SUBTEXT TYPE=HIDDENGo away and troll elsewhere/SUBTEXT

 --
 dwmw2

You have an odd definition of troll.  Tell me, who is trolling, the guy who
posts something trying to help or the guy who posts sarcastic responses to
things?  You appear to have a major case of little-dick syndrome.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Multiplexing mouse input

[Ben Ford]

You are probably talking about an Xfree issue.  And yes it can be done.  I
know several people that do that.  Refer to the XFree86 website.

-b


Dax Kelson wrote:

> My laptop has a touchpad builtin with two buttons, I also have an external
> PS2 and/or USB mouse (3 buttons with scroll wheel).
>
> I would like to be able to use the touchpad, and then plug in the mouse
> (with either PS2 or USB connector) and use it without reconfiguring
> anything.
>
> In fact, it would be cool if I could use both at the same time.
>
> Is this possible with the new "Input Drivers" in the 2.4 kernel?  Is it
> possible with Linux at all?
>
> As a comparison, at least two other OSes, Windows 2000 and NetBSD 1.5
> multiplex mouse input and allow use of two (or more!) mice at the same
> time.
>
> Dax Kelson
>
> NetBSD "wscons console driver" info:
>
> http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/wscons/
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Multiplexing mouse input

[Ben Ford]

You are probably talking about an Xfree issue.  And yes it can be done.  I
know several people that do that.  Refer to the XFree86 website.

-b


Dax Kelson wrote:

 My laptop has a touchpad builtin with two buttons, I also have an external
 PS2 and/or USB mouse (3 buttons with scroll wheel).

 I would like to be able to use the touchpad, and then plug in the mouse
 (with either PS2 or USB connector) and use it without reconfiguring
 anything.

 In fact, it would be cool if I could use both at the same time.

 Is this possible with the new "Input Drivers" in the 2.4 kernel?  Is it
 possible with Linux at all?

 As a comparison, at least two other OSes, Windows 2000 and NetBSD 1.5
 multiplex mouse input and allow use of two (or more!) mice at the same
 time.

 Dax Kelson

 NetBSD "wscons console driver" info:

 http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/wscons/

 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ECN: Clearing the air (fwd)

[Ben Ford]

James Sutherland wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
>
> > James Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sure we all know what the IETF is, and where ECN came from. I haven't
> > > seen anyone suggesting ignoring RST, either: DM just imagined that,
> > > AFAICS.
> > >
> > > The one point I would like to make, though, is that firewalls are NOT
> > > "brain-damaged" for blocking ECN: according to the RFCs governing
> > > firewalls, and the logic behind their design, blocking packets in an
> > > unknown format (i.e. with reserved bits set) is perfectly legitimate. Yes,
> > > those firewalls should be updated to allow ECN-enabled packets
> > > through. However, to break connectivity to such sites deliberately just
> > > because they are not supporting an *experimental* extension to the current
> > > protocols is rather silly.
> >
> > Do keep in mind, we aren't breaking connectivity, they are.
>
> Let me guess: you're a lawyer? :-)
>
> This is a very strange definition: if someone makes a change such that
> their machine can no longer communicate with existing systems, I would say
> the person making the incompatible change is the one who broke it.
>
> Maybe my mains sockets should be waterproof: it's still my fault when
> pouring water over them causes problems, even if the standards say the
> socket should be waterproof!
>

Bad analogy.  Try this.  Jim-Bob down at your local Post Office starts rejecting
all your mail that has the 4 digit zip code extension (Not in wide use, but a
"proposed standard") because he's old school and doesn't know what it is -- maybe
its secret spy communications!!!

(Although this would have the side benefit of really reducing the amount of junk
mail received . . . . . . )

And no, I'm not a lawyer.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ECN: Clearing the air (fwd)

[Ben Ford]

James Sutherland wrote:

> I'm sure we all know what the IETF is, and where ECN came from. I haven't
> seen anyone suggesting ignoring RST, either: DM just imagined that,
> AFAICS.
>
> The one point I would like to make, though, is that firewalls are NOT
> "brain-damaged" for blocking ECN: according to the RFCs governing
> firewalls, and the logic behind their design, blocking packets in an
> unknown format (i.e. with reserved bits set) is perfectly legitimate. Yes,
> those firewalls should be updated to allow ECN-enabled packets
> through. However, to break connectivity to such sites deliberately just
> because they are not supporting an *experimental* extension to the current
> protocols is rather silly.

Do keep in mind, we aren't breaking connectivity, they are.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ECN: Clearing the air (fwd)

[Ben Ford]

James Sutherland wrote:

 I'm sure we all know what the IETF is, and where ECN came from. I haven't
 seen anyone suggesting ignoring RST, either: DM just imagined that,
 AFAICS.

 The one point I would like to make, though, is that firewalls are NOT
 "brain-damaged" for blocking ECN: according to the RFCs governing
 firewalls, and the logic behind their design, blocking packets in an
 unknown format (i.e. with reserved bits set) is perfectly legitimate. Yes,
 those firewalls should be updated to allow ECN-enabled packets
 through. However, to break connectivity to such sites deliberately just
 because they are not supporting an *experimental* extension to the current
 protocols is rather silly.

Do keep in mind, we aren't breaking connectivity, they are.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ECN: Clearing the air (fwd)

[Ben Ford]

James Sutherland wrote:

 On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Ben Ford wrote:

  James Sutherland wrote:
 
   I'm sure we all know what the IETF is, and where ECN came from. I haven't
   seen anyone suggesting ignoring RST, either: DM just imagined that,
   AFAICS.
  
   The one point I would like to make, though, is that firewalls are NOT
   "brain-damaged" for blocking ECN: according to the RFCs governing
   firewalls, and the logic behind their design, blocking packets in an
   unknown format (i.e. with reserved bits set) is perfectly legitimate. Yes,
   those firewalls should be updated to allow ECN-enabled packets
   through. However, to break connectivity to such sites deliberately just
   because they are not supporting an *experimental* extension to the current
   protocols is rather silly.
 
  Do keep in mind, we aren't breaking connectivity, they are.

 Let me guess: you're a lawyer? :-)

 This is a very strange definition: if someone makes a change such that
 their machine can no longer communicate with existing systems, I would say
 the person making the incompatible change is the one who broke it.

 Maybe my mains sockets should be waterproof: it's still my fault when
 pouring water over them causes problems, even if the standards say the
 socket should be waterproof!


Bad analogy.  Try this.  Jim-Bob down at your local Post Office starts rejecting
all your mail that has the 4 digit zip code extension (Not in wide use, but a
"proposed standard") because he's old school and doesn't know what it is -- maybe
its secret spy communications!!!

(Although this would have the side benefit of really reducing the amount of junk
mail received . . . . . . )

And no, I'm not a lawyer.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release)

[Ben Ford]

Mark I Manning IV wrote:

> > >
> > > > I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR
> > > > of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your
> > > > installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the
> > > > choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where
> > > > you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration
> > > > I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again.
>
> Oopts I did this last week (fdisk /mbr doesnt do lilo any good :P)
>
> Insert Debian boot cd, boot to install, press Alt f2  Create mountpoint,
> Mount /dev/hda1, CD to that directory chroot to it, cd into /root and
> ./.profile (prolly not needed but can be useful sometimes)  run lilo.
> All fixed (except by the time i rebooted my motherboard had commited
> suicide on me for being so stupid.  Im about to go collect the
> replacement right now :)

Holy cow.  Try this.

1.  Boot from Slackware CD
2.  At boot prompt enter:   vmlinuz root=/dev/hda3 (replace with correct device of
course)
3.  Boot.
4.  Run lilo.
5.  Reboot if you want to.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: 2.4.1-test10

[Ben Ford]

Jeff Garzik wrote:

> David Ford wrote:
> >
> > Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > > The ChangeLog may not be 100% complete. The physically big things are the
> > > PPC and ACPI updates, even if most people won't notice.
> > >
> > > Linus
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > pre10:
> > >  - got a few too-new R128 #defines in the Radeon merge. Fix.
> > >  - tulip driver update from Jeff Garzik
> > >  - more cpq and DAC elevator fixes from Jens. Looks good.
> > >  - Petr Vandrovec: nicer ncpfs behaviour
> > >  - Andy Grover: APCI update
> > >  - Cort Dougan: PPC update
> > >  - David Miller: sparc updates
> > >  - David Miller: networking updates
> > >  - Neil Brown: RAID5 fixes
> >
> > Do the tulip driver updates address the increasingly common NETDEV timeout
> > repots?
>
> In general you can answer this yourself by reading
> drivers/net/tulip/ChangeLog.
>
> I don't see increasingly common timeout reports.. with which hardware?
> They are likely on the newer LinkSys 4.1 cards, and there are still
> problesm with PNIC.  Outside of that, other cards should be ok.
>

I have this problem also.

I have several machines that are almost unuseable due to the network device.  I
need to do an ifconfig down/up to get connectivity back again.  That doesn't
work so handy for a headless router . . . .

My desktop machine (2.3.9x - present) has dropped the network 4 or 5 times a day
for months.

-b


>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik   | "You see, in this world there's two kinds of
> Building 1024 |  people, my friend: Those with loaded guns
> MandrakeSoft  |  and those who dig. You dig."  --Blondie
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: 2.4.1-test10

[Ben Ford]

Jeff Garzik wrote:

 David Ford wrote:
 
  Linus Torvalds wrote:
 
   The ChangeLog may not be 100% complete. The physically big things are the
   PPC and ACPI updates, even if most people won't notice.
  
   Linus
  
   
  
   pre10:
- got a few too-new R128 #defines in the Radeon merge. Fix.
- tulip driver update from Jeff Garzik
- more cpq and DAC elevator fixes from Jens. Looks good.
- Petr Vandrovec: nicer ncpfs behaviour
- Andy Grover: APCI update
- Cort Dougan: PPC update
- David Miller: sparc updates
- David Miller: networking updates
- Neil Brown: RAID5 fixes
 
  Do the tulip driver updates address the increasingly common NETDEV timeout
  repots?

 In general you can answer this yourself by reading
 drivers/net/tulip/ChangeLog.

 I don't see increasingly common timeout reports.. with which hardware?
 They are likely on the newer LinkSys 4.1 cards, and there are still
 problesm with PNIC.  Outside of that, other cards should be ok.


I have this problem also.

I have several machines that are almost unuseable due to the network device.  I
need to do an ifconfig down/up to get connectivity back again.  That doesn't
work so handy for a headless router . . . .

My desktop machine (2.3.9x - present) has dropped the network 4 or 5 times a day
for months.

-b



 Jeff

 --
 Jeff Garzik   | "You see, in this world there's two kinds of
 Building 1024 |  people, my friend: Those with loaded guns
 MandrakeSoft  |  and those who dig. You dig."  --Blondie
 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release)

[Ben Ford]

Mark I Manning IV wrote:

  
I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR
of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your
installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the
choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where
you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration
I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again.

 Oopts I did this last week (fdisk /mbr doesnt do lilo any good :P)

 Insert Debian boot cd, boot to install, press Alt f2  Create mountpoint,
 Mount /dev/hda1, CD to that directory chroot to it, cd into /root and
 ./.profile (prolly not needed but can be useful sometimes)  run lilo.
 All fixed (except by the time i rebooted my motherboard had commited
 suicide on me for being so stupid.  Im about to go collect the
 replacement right now :)

Holy cow.  Try this.

1.  Boot from Slackware CD
2.  At boot prompt enter:   vmlinuz root=/dev/hda3 (replace with correct device of
course)
3.  Boot.
4.  Run lilo.
5.  Reboot if you want to.

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux Kernel ORB: kORBit

[Ben Ford]

Chris Lattner wrote:

> This email is here to announce the availability of a port of ORBit (the
> GNOME ORB) to the Linux kernel.  This ORB, named kORBit, is available from
> our sourceforge web site (http://korbit.sourceforge.net/).  A kernel ORB
> allows you to write kernel extensions in CORBA and have the kernel call
> into them, or to call into the kernel through CORBA.  This opens the door
> to a wide range of experiments/hacks:
> 
> * We can now write device drivers in perl, and let them run on the iMAC
>   across the hall from you. :)

Why would you *ever* want to write a device driver in perl???

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux Kernel ORB: kORBit

[Ben Ford]

Chris Lattner wrote:

 This email is here to announce the availability of a port of ORBit (the
 GNOME ORB) to the Linux kernel.  This ORB, named kORBit, is available from
 our sourceforge web site (http://korbit.sourceforge.net/).  A kernel ORB
 allows you to write kernel extensions in CORBA and have the kernel call
 into them, or to call into the kernel through CORBA.  This opens the door
 to a wide range of experiments/hacks:
 
 * We can now write device drivers in perl, and let them run on the iMAC
   across the hall from you. :)

Why would you *ever* want to write a device driver in perl???

-b

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Defective Red Hat Distribution poorly represents Linux

[Ben Ford]

Ya, I also had a system that ran many OS's great, including Linux, Win98,
Win2k, etc.  However when I went to install NT on it, the CPU overheated
every time.  Ya, I know, doesn't make sense, but that's how it was.

-b


John Jasen wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Charles Turner, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> > (4)   For those who think the hardware is broken; The hardware worked
> >   for six months using Windows/2000. It has a NT core.
>
> On this note, I recall a time that I 'appropriated' a workstation for
> linux.
>
> It was pulled out of the student labs, where it had worked for 3 months
> running NT 4.0, but the RH install kept on crashing out.
>
> I could even reinstall NT 4.0.
>
> *shrug*
>
> Eventually traced it down to memory, and had our hardware hacks replace
> it.
>
> Sometimes hardware problems can be subtle.
>
> --
> -- John E. Jasen ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> -- Some elections you just can't buy. For others, there's GORE 2000
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Defective Red Hat Distribution poorly represents Linux

[Ben Ford]

Tigran Aivazian wrote:



>
> 3) edit /etc/ftpusers to allow root ftp
>
> 4) edit /etc/pam.d/login and /etc/pam.d/rlogin to comment out securetty
> PAM module (so we can telnet as root on _any_ tty)

Not into security are you?

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Defective Red Hat Distribution poorly represents Linux

[Ben Ford]

Tigran Aivazian wrote:

snip


 3) edit /etc/ftpusers to allow root ftp

 4) edit /etc/pam.d/login and /etc/pam.d/rlogin to comment out securetty
 PAM module (so we can telnet as root on _any_ tty)

Not into security are you?

-b


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Defective Red Hat Distribution poorly represents Linux

[Ben Ford]

Ya, I also had a system that ran many OS's great, including Linux, Win98,
Win2k, etc.  However when I went to install NT on it, the CPU overheated
every time.  Ya, I know, doesn't make sense, but that's how it was.

-b


John Jasen wrote:

 On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Charles Turner, Ph.D. wrote:

  (4)   For those who think the hardware is broken; The hardware worked
for six months using Windows/2000. It has a NT core.

 On this note, I recall a time that I 'appropriated' a workstation for
 linux.

 It was pulled out of the student labs, where it had worked for 3 months
 running NT 4.0, but the RH install kept on crashing out.

 I could even reinstall NT 4.0.

 *shrug*

 Eventually traced it down to memory, and had our hardware hacks replace
 it.

 Sometimes hardware problems can be subtle.

 --
 -- John E. Jasen ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 -- Some elections you just can't buy. For others, there's GORE 2000

 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: BTTV detection broken in 2.4.0-test11-pre5

[Ben Ford]

Alexander Viro wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Christer Weinigel wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you write:
> > >On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Alexander Viro wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, David Lang wrote:
> > >> > there is a rootkit kernel module out there that, if loaded onto your
> > >> > system, can make it almost impossible to detect that your system has been
> > >> > compramised. with module support disabled this isn't possible.
> > >> Yes, it is. Easily. If you've got root you can modify the kernel image and
> > >> reboot the bloody thing. And no, marking it immutable will not help. Open
> > >> the raw device and modify relevant blocks.
> > >
> > >Kernel on writeprotected floppy disk...
>
> Cute. And when (not if) we get hit by new bug in the net/*/* you will drive
> to the location of said router to upgrade the thing.
>

No, I mail the customer a new operating CD.

-b


>
> > So change the CMOS-settings so that the BIOS changes the boot order
> > from A, C, CD-ROM to C first instead.  *grin*  How long do you want
> > to keep playing Tic-Tac-Toe?
>
> Now, _that_ can be taken care of (custom boot code burnt into the thing)
>
> > Of course, using capabilities and totally disabling access to the raw
> > disk devices and to any I/O ports might be the solution, provided that
> > there are no bugs or thinkos in the capabilities code.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: BTTV detection broken in 2.4.0-test11-pre5

[Ben Ford]

Christer Weinigel wrote:

> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you write:
> >On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Alexander Viro wrote:
> >> On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, David Lang wrote:
> >> > there is a rootkit kernel module out there that, if loaded onto your
> >> > system, can make it almost impossible to detect that your system has been
> >> > compramised. with module support disabled this isn't possible.
> >> Yes, it is. Easily. If you've got root you can modify the kernel image and
> >> reboot the bloody thing. And no, marking it immutable will not help. Open
> >> the raw device and modify relevant blocks.
> >
> >Kernel on writeprotected floppy disk...
>
> So change the CMOS-settings so that the BIOS changes the boot order
> from A, C, CD-ROM to C first instead.  *grin*  How long do you want
> to keep playing Tic-Tac-Toe?
>

The way we do it is to boot from a CDROM with no onboard hard drive.  (logging is
provided by an external server)  Beat that.

-b



>
> Of course, using capabilities and totally disabling access to the raw
> disk devices and to any I/O ports might be the solution, provided that
> there are no bugs or thinkos in the capabilities code.
>
>/Christer
> --
> "Just how much can I get away with and still go to heaven?"
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: BTTV detection broken in 2.4.0-test11-pre5

[Ben Ford]

Christer Weinigel wrote:

 In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write:
 On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Alexander Viro wrote:
  On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, David Lang wrote:
   there is a rootkit kernel module out there that, if loaded onto your
   system, can make it almost impossible to detect that your system has been
   compramised. with module support disabled this isn't possible.
  Yes, it is. Easily. If you've got root you can modify the kernel image and
  reboot the bloody thing. And no, marking it immutable will not help. Open
  the raw device and modify relevant blocks.
 
 Kernel on writeprotected floppy disk...

 So change the CMOS-settings so that the BIOS changes the boot order
 from A, C, CD-ROM to C first instead.  *grin*  How long do you want
 to keep playing Tic-Tac-Toe?


The way we do it is to boot from a CDROM with no onboard hard drive.  (logging is
provided by an external server)  Beat that.

-b




 Of course, using capabilities and totally disabling access to the raw
 disk devices and to any I/O ports might be the solution, provided that
 there are no bugs or thinkos in the capabilities code.

/Christer
 --
 "Just how much can I get away with and still go to heaven?"
 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: BTTV detection broken in 2.4.0-test11-pre5

[Ben Ford]

Alexander Viro wrote:

 On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Christer Weinigel wrote:

  In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write:
  On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Alexander Viro wrote:
   On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, David Lang wrote:
there is a rootkit kernel module out there that, if loaded onto your
system, can make it almost impossible to detect that your system has been
compramised. with module support disabled this isn't possible.
   Yes, it is. Easily. If you've got root you can modify the kernel image and
   reboot the bloody thing. And no, marking it immutable will not help. Open
   the raw device and modify relevant blocks.
  
  Kernel on writeprotected floppy disk...

 Cute. And when (not if) we get hit by new bug in the net/*/* you will drive
 to the location of said router to upgrade the thing.


No, I mail the customer a new operating CD.

-b



  So change the CMOS-settings so that the BIOS changes the boot order
  from A, C, CD-ROM to C first instead.  *grin*  How long do you want
  to keep playing Tic-Tac-Toe?

 Now, _that_ can be taken care of (custom boot code burnt into the thing)

  Of course, using capabilities and totally disabling access to the raw
  disk devices and to any I/O ports might be the solution, provided that
  there are no bugs or thinkos in the capabilities code.

 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: test11-pre6 still very broken

[Ben Ford]

Here is lspci output from the laptop in question.  Is this not UHCI?

[ben@Juanita ben]$ /sbin/lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX - 82443BX/ZX Host bridge (rev 03)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX - 82443BX/ZX AGP bridge (rev 03)
00:07.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 ISA (rev 02)
00:07.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 IDE (rev 01)
00:07.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 USB (rev 01)
00:07.3 Bridge: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 ACPI (rev 03)
00:09.0 Communication controller: Lucent Microelectronics 56k WinModem (rev 01)
00:0a.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments: Unknown device ac50 (rev 01)
00:11.0 Multimedia audio controller: ESS Technology ES1969 Solo-1 Audiodrive (rev
02)
00:12.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82557 [Ethernet Pro 100] (rev 08)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc 3D Rage P/M Mobility AGP
2x (rev 64)

The machine hangs on warm reboot almost every time.  On cold boot, it never has
the problem.

-b



Greg KH wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 09:27:19PM -0800, David Ford wrote:
> >
> > The second issue is usb.  I now have two machines that lockup on boot in USB.
> > One is the above workstation, the second is a Compaq laptop.  Unfortunately
> > I have no way of unplugging the USB hardware inside the laptop :P
>
> Can't you not compile in the UHCI driver?  Actually, it seems odd that a
> Compaq laptop would have a uhci driver, as Compaq was one of the OHCI
> creators...
>
> greg k-h
>
> --
> greg@(kroah|wirex).com
> http://immunix.org/~greg
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

 S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: test11-pre6 still very broken

[Ben Ford]

Here is lspci output from the laptop in question.  Is this not UHCI?

[ben@Juanita ben]$ /sbin/lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX - 82443BX/ZX Host bridge (rev 03)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX - 82443BX/ZX AGP bridge (rev 03)
00:07.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 ISA (rev 02)
00:07.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 IDE (rev 01)
00:07.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 USB (rev 01)
00:07.3 Bridge: Intel Corporation 82371AB PIIX4 ACPI (rev 03)
00:09.0 Communication controller: Lucent Microelectronics 56k WinModem (rev 01)
00:0a.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments: Unknown device ac50 (rev 01)
00:11.0 Multimedia audio controller: ESS Technology ES1969 Solo-1 Audiodrive (rev
02)
00:12.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82557 [Ethernet Pro 100] (rev 08)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc 3D Rage P/M Mobility AGP
2x (rev 64)

The machine hangs on warm reboot almost every time.  On cold boot, it never has
the problem.

-b



Greg KH wrote:

 On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 09:27:19PM -0800, David Ford wrote:
 
  The second issue is usb.  I now have two machines that lockup on boot in USB.
  One is the above workstation, the second is a Compaq laptop.  Unfortunately
  I have no way of unplugging the USB hardware inside the laptop :P

 Can't you not compile in the UHCI driver?  Actually, it seems odd that a
 Compaq laptop would have a uhci driver, as Compaq was one of the OHCI
 creators...

 greg k-h

 --
 greg@(kroah|wirex).com
 http://immunix.org/~greg
 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

 S/MIME Cryptographic Signature