Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
His point and direction (or lack thereof) are easy to see, and consistent. Linux has been a war of attrition with an interesting rat's maze model of human intereaction -- always interesting to see new mice traverse the maze (only there's no cheese at the end of this maze -- just the smell of cheese -- the cheese is on Linus' desk outside the maze, and all the mice inside the maze are madly looking for it, and being driven quite mad). :-) Cheers, Jeff Andre Hedrick wrote: Greg, Linus is not always correct, sometimes his point of view is hard to see. My shoulders got in the way most of the time; however, Linus is consistant. Well until he changes his mind. Crack ?? Get some plumber's putty to smooth over the gap. Cheers, Andre Hedrick LAD Storage Consulting Group On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Greg Folkert wrote: On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 15:03 -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: Recently I ran across http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&selm=1033074519.2698.5. camel%40localhost.localdomain Is there a collection point for Linus' decrees? The LSB (http://www.linuxbase.org/) seems to be mostly involved with how a distro is laid out, and not much to do with the kernel. Okay, Linus decreed... oh yeah. Exactly what is wrong with the method anyway? You on Crack? And no... that is not a decree in the traditional sense. It is more like me saying: "I decree that Linus Torvalds is the lead maintainer of the Linux Kernel" Make TONS-O-SENSE to state the obvious. IOW the statement was all meant to say *DO IT THIS WAY AND NO OTHER* as nobody else honors any other method. -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The technology that is Stronger, better, faster: Linux - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I'd vote for Documentation/Policies I'll second. ..Stu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 05:08:33PM -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: > The post I reference mentions that Linus once said that a standard > method to locate the source for a particular kernel would be to have > it at /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build. This seems to be a symlink for > vanilla kernels, and actual source for the FC3 installed kernels I > have handy. > > I guess what I'm looking for is a collection of linux kernel policies. > Is there such a collection? Well, the place where Linus's policy surrounding /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build can be found in: /usr/src/linux/Makefile The distributions (by and large) honor it, but other than that, you seem to have a slightly overinflated view how much weight and how much formalities such statements actually have. The problem with collecting it, as other people have pointd out, is that it implies that all such statements are valid forever (such as a Pope's encyclical) or that we have some formal way of blessing a statement by sprinkling Holy Penguin Pee on it, or some way of retracting such a blessing (probably involving some ceremony involving turning a candle upside down and snuffing it out :-). If the goal is to collect some hints about of out-of-kernel modules and device drivers, there are places where that could be done, and I'd probably suggest writing or updating a linux HOWTO as a part of the Linux Documentation Project. However, with the way in-kernel interfaces are changing, one of things you will no doubt find as you start collecting such hints is that the first hint is: "Get that device driver or module into the mainline kernel sources; otherwise your life will be nasty and brutish, and while perhaps not short, you may soon wish it to be. :-)" - Ted - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
"Randy.Dunlap" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Stuart MacDonald wrote: [...] > > So what I'm wondering is, is there a location on the net where Linus' > > statements about how the kernel is to be are collected? ie, Where the > > above statements could all be found, with cites. > > > > I'm thinking there's probably other info about the standard way of > > doing things in regards to the kernel (all aspects thereof) that Linus > > has put forth that might be handy for me to know, and I'm hoping that > > there's a handy dandy collection that I can peruse. > > > > I guess what I'm looking for is a collection of linux kernel policies. > > Is there such a collection? > Not that I know of, but it would be nice, esp. for newcomers. I'd vote for Documentation/Policies -- Dr. Horst H. von Brand User #22616 counter.li.org Departamento de Informatica Fono: +56 32 654431 Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria +56 32 654239 Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, ChileFax: +56 32 797513 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
Greg, Linus is not always correct, sometimes his point of view is hard to see. My shoulders got in the way most of the time; however, Linus is consistant. Well until he changes his mind. Crack ?? Get some plumber's putty to smooth over the gap. Cheers, Andre Hedrick LAD Storage Consulting Group On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Greg Folkert wrote: > On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 15:03 -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: > > Recently I ran across > > http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&selm=1033074519.2698.5. > > camel%40localhost.localdomain > > > > Is there a collection point for Linus' decrees? > > > > The LSB (http://www.linuxbase.org/) seems to be mostly involved with > > how a distro is laid out, and not much to do with the kernel. > > Okay, Linus decreed... oh yeah. > > Exactly what is wrong with the method anyway? > > You on Crack? > > And no... that is not a decree in the traditional sense. It is more like > me saying: > "I decree that Linus Torvalds is the lead maintainer of the > Linux Kernel" > > Make TONS-O-SENSE to state the obvious. IOW the statement was all meant > to say *DO IT THIS WAY AND NO OTHER* as nobody else honors any other > method. > -- > greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > The technology that is > Stronger, better, faster: Linux > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:08:33 EST, Stuart MacDonald said: > So what I'm wondering is, is there a location on the net where Linus' > statements about how the kernel is to be are collected? ie, Where the > above statements could all be found, with cites. Your kernel source came with 3 files in the Documentation/ directory: CodingStyle, SubmittingDrivers, and SubmittingPatches. That's probably as close to an official "how the kernel is to be" as you will find. Remember that Linus has *always* reserved the right to change his mind if a "sufficiently good" idea came along. So it's not as much a "The Emperor Penguin Has Decreed" as "Nobody's made a sufficiently convincing case to Linus". (And I've never seen Linus claim to be totally consistent on what qualifies as "sufficiently" - he can be a lot more stubborn about some things and flexible on on others) And remember that Linus has a source tree, but so do many others. There's been lots of stuff that's made appearances elsewhere - the -mm tree has had enough different schedulers that totally ripped out the innards of something as basic as the scheduler that a 'plugsched' patch showed up. I'm personally convinced we've not seen the last of the reiser4 "file as directory" concept, and that somebody will do a sane version at the VFS level where it belongs. There's a whole bunch of other in-flight code that would be totally against a "how the kernel shall be" document of just 2 years ago. Another thread mentioned the kernelnewbies fortunes file: http://www.kernelnewbies.org/kernelnewbies-fortunes.tar.gz That's probably as close to an official document as you're likely to find. And the fact that it's in the format of a fortunes file says a lot about the mindset of the kernel hacking community, in a Zen koan sort of way. pgpGjH6G5XASv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
Stuart MacDonald wrote: From: Greg Folkert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 15:03 -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: Recently I ran across http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&selm= 1033074519.2698.5. camel%40localhost.localdomain Is there a collection point for Linus' decrees? [snip] So what I'm wondering is, is there a location on the net where Linus' statements about how the kernel is to be are collected? ie, Where the above statements could all be found, with cites. I'm thinking there's probably other info about the standard way of doing things in regards to the kernel (all aspects thereof) that Linus has put forth that might be handy for me to know, and I'm hoping that there's a handy dandy collection that I can peruse. I guess what I'm looking for is a collection of linux kernel policies. Is there such a collection? Not that I know of, but it would be nice, esp. for newcomers. -- ~Randy ObPlug: there is a small collection of Linus/Andrew/et al quotes at http://www.madrone.org/quotes/linuxquotes.html and I have lots more queued up for there, but there aren't enough hours in a day. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
From: Greg Folkert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 15:03 -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: > > Recently I ran across > > > > http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&selm= > > 1033074519.2698.5. > > camel%40localhost.localdomain > > > > Is there a collection point for Linus' decrees? > > > > The LSB (http://www.linuxbase.org/) seems to be mostly involved with > > how a distro is laid out, and not much to do with the kernel. > > Okay, Linus decreed... oh yeah. > Exactly what is wrong with the method anyway? > You on Crack? Uh, what? I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the above, except that maybe you think I was implying that the /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build method is somehow wrong. Which I wasn't, and I'm not even sure how you'd come to that conclusion from my post. And no, I'm not on crack. > Make TONS-O-SENSE to state the obvious. IOW the statement was all meant > to say *DO IT THIS WAY AND NO OTHER* as nobody else honors any other > method. The post I reference mentions that Linus once said that a standard method to locate the source for a particular kernel would be to have it at /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build. This seems to be a symlink for vanilla kernels, and actual source for the FC3 installed kernels I have handy. I had not heard this before, and it turns out to be handy for me. In the past I have also seen Linus state things like "binary drivers are bad" and "drm is okay". So what I'm wondering is, is there a location on the net where Linus' statements about how the kernel is to be are collected? ie, Where the above statements could all be found, with cites. I'm thinking there's probably other info about the standard way of doing things in regards to the kernel (all aspects thereof) that Linus has put forth that might be handy for me to know, and I'm hoping that there's a handy dandy collection that I can peruse. I guess what I'm looking for is a collection of linux kernel policies. Is there such a collection? ..Stu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Greg's Decree! (was Re: Linus' decrees?)
On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 15:03 -0500, Stuart MacDonald wrote: > Recently I ran across > http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&selm=1033074519.2698.5. > camel%40localhost.localdomain > > Is there a collection point for Linus' decrees? > > The LSB (http://www.linuxbase.org/) seems to be mostly involved with > how a distro is laid out, and not much to do with the kernel. Okay, Linus decreed... oh yeah. Exactly what is wrong with the method anyway? You on Crack? And no... that is not a decree in the traditional sense. It is more like me saying: "I decree that Linus Torvalds is the lead maintainer of the Linux Kernel" Make TONS-O-SENSE to state the obvious. IOW the statement was all meant to say *DO IT THIS WAY AND NO OTHER* as nobody else honors any other method. -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The technology that is Stronger, better, faster: Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part