Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On 20 Jun 2001, Miles Lane wrote: > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092935,00.html Yes, he sure knows how to bring Linux to the attention of people ;) Rik -- Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release: "we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL)" http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Wednesday 20 June 2001 23:33, Rik van Riel wrote: > On 20 Jun 2001, Miles Lane wrote: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092935,00.html > > Yes, he sure knows how to bring Linux to the attention > of people ;) Not to mention the GPL, which I can guarantee you, before today my mom had *never* heard of. -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On 06/20/2001 at 05:33:45 PM Larry McVoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >You can scream all you want that "it isn't free software" but the fact >of the matter is that you all scream that and then go do your slides for >your Linux talks in PowerPoint. Not I. The slides for my last meeting were done as TIFF files and I used xv to display them. Plus, the most recent documentation I wrote for one of our mainframe applications was done with vi and LaTeX. "What, in addition to the printed copies, you want a copy of the Word document? There is no Word document. But I'll convert it to Rich Text for you and you can take it from there." If my employer didn't require me to use them occasionally, I'd delete every Microsoft product on my laptop. It's not that I have anything against proprietary software. It's just Microsoft that I despise. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Larry McVoy wrote: > For the last 10 years, Unix has gotten the OS right and the apps wrong > and Microsoft has gotten the apps right and the OS wrong. Seems like > there is potential for a win-win. I've been hoping for this ever since the rumors of "Microsoft Linux" started popping up. The thing is that it'll probably never happen because Microsoft wouldn't be able to stand having any portion of the system out of their control. We have VMWare, I doubt you'll ever do any better than that... - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 03:33:45PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > You can scream all you want that "it isn't free software" but the fact > of the matter is that you all scream that and then go do your slides for > your Linux talks in PowerPoint. I think this is an unfair generalization. I'm not even all that clear about what PowerPoint is (I've never seen it, ever). I'm guessing that it lets you display slides in sequence, but that's just from what I've seen of MagicPoint, which someone said at a user meet was a clone of PowerPoint. (And yes, the talk given that day was in fact done with MagicPoint) -- Michael Bacarella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Technical Staff / System Development, New York Connect.Net, Ltd. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Wednesday 20 June 2001 18:31, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On Wednesday 20 June 2001 23:33, Rik van Riel wrote: > > On 20 Jun 2001, Miles Lane wrote: > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092935,00.html > > > > Yes, he sure knows how to bring Linux to the attention > > of people ;) > > Not to mention the GPL, which I can guarantee you, before today my mom had > *never* heard of. > > -- > Daniel Ooh, do I get to say "I told you so"? (LinuxToday buried my submission way back under a blurb about caldera, but still...) http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-05-10-002-20-PS Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 05:53:44PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Not I. The slides for my last meeting were done as TIFF files and I used xv to > display them. Plus, the most recent documentation I wrote for one of our > mainframe applications was done with vi and LaTeX. "What, in addition to the > printed copies, you want a copy of the Word document? There is no Word > document. But I'll convert it to Rich Text for you and you can take it from > there." If my employer didn't require me to use them occasionally, I'd delete > every Microsoft product on my laptop. It's not that I have anything against > proprietary software. It's just Microsoft that I despise. I did the slides for my last LUG talk in MagicPoint (apt-get install mgp, or on rpmfind.net, or wherever, maybe even with RH, I don't know). Very clean format - see http://kabuki.sfarc.net/daniel/netfilter/netfilter.mgp -- Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "can NE1 help me aim nuclear weaponz? /MSG ME!!" - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
Alan Cox wrote: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092935,00.html > > > Of course the URL that goes with that is : > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/features.asp > > Yes., Microsoft ship GNU C (quite legally) as part of their offerings... Do they include the source? There's a CD of source that you can buy for $20 but gcc isn't listed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Paul Flinders wrote: > Alan Cox wrote: > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092935,00.html > > > > > Of course the URL that goes with that is : > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/features.asp > > > > Yes., Microsoft ship GNU C (quite legally) as part of their offerings... > > Do they include the source? There's a CD of source that you can buy > for $20 but gcc isn't listed I'm not sure if they are allowed to do that. See clause 1 (c): http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdn-files/027/001/516/eula_mit.htm Rik -- Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release: "we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL)" http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 11:09:10PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092935,00.html > > > > > Of course the URL that goes with that is : > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/features.asp > > > > Yes., Microsoft ship GNU C (quite legally) as part of their offerings... > > Which brings up an interesting question for us all. Let's postulate, for > the sake of discussion, that we agree on the following: > > a) Linux (or just about any Unix) is a better low level OS than NT > b) Microsoft's application infrastructure is better (the COM layer, >the stuff that lets apps talk to each, the desktop, etc). Not completly - the COM layer is (my opinion) part of what propagates some of their security problems. What else would be capable of disabling a cruser so fast (and take two hours to restart)... There appears to be no functional difference between COM and CORBA (based on superficial knowlege only) except specification availability. > I know we can argue that KDE/GNOME/whatever is going to get there or is > there or is better, etc., but for the time being lets just pretend that > the Microsoft stuff is better. > > What would be wrong with Microsoft/Linux? It would be: > > a) the Linux kernel > b) the Microsoft API ported to X > c) Microsoft apps > d) Linux apps > > Since Microsoft is all about making money, it doesn't matter if they > charge for the dll's or the OS, either one is fine, you can't run Word > without them. If you don't need the Microsoft apps, you could strip > them off and strip off the dlls and ship all the rest of it without > giving Microsoft a dime. If you do need the apps or you want the app > infrastructure, you have to give Microsoft exactly what you have to give > them today - money - but you can run Word side by side with Ghostview > or whatever. Microsoft could charge exactly the same amount for the > dll's as they charge for the OS, none of the end users can tell the > difference anyway. Ah yes, raise the Mr. Bill tax... The DLLs ought to be less than half the price of the OS .. after all, they are a small part of the distribution and belong to the application(s). If you attempt to find a full installation of NT (JUST the OS), it will cost ~400+ dollars (US). If you then add Office, add an additional 200. If you want program development, add another 200 to 600, maybe more since I haven't looked recently. For the most part, I wouldn't complain too much about their prices. If the products would work. If they didn't have such horrible security. If the "patches" supplied would also work and not introduce more and different failures. BTW, the prices are actually slightly less than what AT&T, SCO, and others charged for pieces of a unix system when they were originally sold ($600 base os, $600 application development, $600 documentation workbench all values approximate, from memory). > I'm unimpressed with what Microsoft calls an operating system and > I'm equally unimpressed with what Unix calls an application layer. > For the last 10 years, Unix has gotten the OS right and the apps wrong > and Microsoft has gotten the apps right and the OS wrong. Seems like > there is potential for a win-win. I'm equally unimpressed by their applications - how many macro viruses exist? How do they propagate? How many times do they change file formats? How many patches are (re)issued to "fix" the same problem? The biggest improvement would be that users could remain with a version that works for them and NOT be forced to pay more money for the same functionality (watch out for the XP license virus... also known as a logic bomb). > You can scream all you want that "it isn't free software" but the fact > of the matter is that you all scream that and then go do your slides for > your Linux talks in PowerPoint. Not by choice - I'm forced to use M$ crap because the conferences will not accept anything else (yet another monopoly point). Personally, I would prefer to use Applix, StarOffice, WordPerfect, FrameMaker, ... Only one of which is "free". I agree that M$ applications should be available. But until M$ quits appropriating other peoples code and calling it theirs I, for one, don't want to be forced to use them. - Jesse I Pollard, II Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any opinions expressed are solely my own. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
Larry McVoy wrote: > You can scream all you want that "it isn't free software" but the fact > of the matter is that you all scream that and then go do your slides for > your Linux talks in PowerPoint. Never used powerpoint. If I need slides I use a (linux-based) word processor and a bigger font than for paper. Or html if I need something more fancy than text. Html works great, and is also nifty if I need to put the stuff on the web for later reference. No conversion needed, and readers don't need anything but the browser they're using. Helge Hafting - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thursday 21 June 2001 10:46, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote: > My last LinuxExpo talk was also made with PP, This makes about as much sense as going to a cocktail party with nose glasses on. -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
> > You can scream all you want that "it isn't free software" but the fact > > of the matter is that you all scream that and then go do your slides for > > your Linux talks in PowerPoint. > > I think this is an unfair generalization. Not really. In Linus's book he describes that his presentations used to be (and possibly still are?) done in powerpoint. In fact at one point he says "thank god for Microsoft". Given the context, I'm not sure if he was joking or not. Not that it matters. I share Linus's opinion that it's not an issue of hating Microsoft. It's an issue of keeping your energies focused on progress because Microsoft will be irrelevant in the very near future. The momentum is on our side... -- Chuck Wolber| steward: "Are you the pilot?" System Administrator| pilot: "Yes, why?" AltaServ Corporation| steward, handing box to pilot: "Then this is for you." (425)576-1202 | pilot, looking inside box: "Oh, it's a new altimeter." ten.vresatla@wkcuhc | --Chris Kennedy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On 21 Jun 2001 15:48:11 +0200, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On Thursday 21 June 2001 10:46, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote: > > My last LinuxExpo talk was also made with PP, > > This makes about as much sense as going to a cocktail party with nose glasses > on. One of the mantras that get hammered into Microsoft employees is "Eat your own dogfood." Which means that people working at Microsoft should attempt to use the company's products throughout the day in order to surface problems and give incentive to those folks to make things better. Obviously, the "EYODF" work doesn't kick in until there is some minimal level of functionality. It may be that Linux/OSS office applications simply aren't useful enough yet for anyone to stomach using them throughout the day. It would be nice to see more Linux folks eating the dogfood and making those applications better, though. For my part, I test Enlightenment, Gnome, XFree86 and Mozilla, in addition to Linux kernels. Miles - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thursday 21 June 2001 04:37, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote: > > Devils' advocate position: If Linux would not be under GPL but under > BSD license, M$ may have already done so. But consider them porting > one of their monster applications and release it just to find out that > they've linked to GNU readline somewhere because of an QM oversight. I said as much in an article to LinuxToday. (They buried it under a page of commentary about Ransom Love, but they did post it.) http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-05-10-002-20-PS BSD forked to death in the 80's. Everybody from AT&T to Sun to IBM who saw money in it spun off their own incompatable, proprietary version. If MS was currently facing BSD rather than LInux, they would have "embrace and extend"ed it long ago. Hide half of office in the system libraries (just like windows), come out with a closed-source version, loot the open competition for any advances but don't share yours... > I'd guess, to them, the risk of having their core code base (their > source of revenue) "infected by the GNU virus" is just too high. The GPL was designed to block embrace and extend. It embraces and extends right back. And it's torquing microsoft off big time. > Hmmm. After all, they're already using FreeBSD. Maybe they will > release "Windows for FreeBSD" with Office. Now that would be an > interesting impact on Linux (I would be over there in seconds =:-) ) Just like AT&T did to free Unix in ~1984. How long before it's "Office for BSD incidentally distributed with a closed-source copy of BSD" mutated into "yet another incompatable proprietary operating system, just with lots of unix code." That wouldn't solve anything. We've been through a few years with netscape as our only viable web browser on linux, how much fun was that? Rember the ben franklin quote about exchanging liberty for safety. Buying short-term gains with long-term sacrifices is a dumb idea. Been there. Done that. Came here to recover. > Regards > Henning Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thursday 21 June 2001 04:50, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote: > Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >Ooh, do I get to say "I told you so"? (LinuxToday buried my submission > > way back under a blurb about caldera, but still...) > > And the quote of "stealing the TCP stack from BSD" is still wrong. Everybody took the BSD tcp stack, including VMS and OS/2. It was the first major lump of code they separated when AT&T started making legal threats around 1983. Did I say stealing? The berkeley people gave it away for free... > And the web browser they have today derives from NCSA Mosaic as > prominently displayed in the "About" box of every single IE version > out. No TBL here. You take microsoft's word for things? Read this: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/january/new0122d.htm Various other coverage: http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/news/0120/22aspy.html http://www4.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_587.html And two years later, spyglass still hadn't learned their lesson: http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,1014310,00.html Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 12:25:15PM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > If MS was currently facing BSD rather than LInux, they would have "embrace > and extend"ed it long ago. Hide half of office in the system libraries (just > like windows), come out with a closed-source version, loot the open > competition for any advances but don't share yours... Apple's doing it right now. Except that Apple keeps the old code open. Probably because they'll gain nothing from it, and at best, they can appeal to the techies. And it worked. For months, I heard nothing but how much butt MacOS X would kick and that it'd be like Linux, but have a better application layer. Whatever. No one says that now that it's out. As if Apple would really try to appeal to us. :) -- Michael Bacarella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Technical Staff / System Development, New York Connect.Net, Ltd. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thursday 21 June 2001 17:49, Schilling, Richard wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: Rob Landley > > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 9:25 AM > > [snip] > > > BSD forked to death in the 80's. Everybody from AT&T to Sun > > to IBM who saw > > money in it spun off their own incompatable, proprietary version. > > Microsoft also had a UNIX variant, but they gave up on the product . . > .forget why. Because Paul Allen got leukemia and quit the company around 1983. Microsoft was founded by two people: Paul Allen (the techie) and Bill Gates (the marketer, whose father was a lawyer. Gates was a bit technical in the 8-bit days, but the last piece of code he personally wrote that shipped in a product was the text editor for the TRS-80.) In late '79 early '80, they heard the rumors that IBM was pondering a PC, and Paul Allen went "any real computer will run Unix", so they got a license from AT&T and ported the sucker, calling it "Xenix". (MS was a porting house, they made their living porting software (mostly BASIC) from one platform to another in those days, and porting unix was a big thing, so as the name implies: they'd port it anywhere). And then IBM dropped the PC's tech specs on them after they signed non-disclosure and it said "minimum 16k of ram", and they went "okay, we need an embedded OS". So they sent IBM to talk to Gary Kildall at Intergalactic Digital Research (I.E. Kildall's living room) and get CP/M, but the meeting fell through famously. But Allen knew a guy who knew a guy who had reverse engineered CP/M from a store bought API manual as a summer project (Quick And Dirty Operating System). They got a bank loan for $50k, bought it, and offered it to IBM. Remember, the original PC the floppy was optional. Dos 1.0 was only needed if you got the optional floppy, the in-ROM basic (which was the real reason IBM was talking to MS, the rest was just gravy) had support for the casette tape interface built into the original PC. That was the default interface, floppies were an expensive luxury. But microsoft had conditionally licensed to IBM their entire rest of their software catalog (from typing tutor on up), conditional on having a floppy drive to load them from. They went out and got their own version of CPM so their application software deal with IBM wouldn't fall through. And of course IBM had two sources for everything. (As a big evil monopoly, they understood that being on the receiving end, at the mercy of a monopoly supplier, was a bad thing.) They even made Intel license the 8086/8088 design to AMD so they'd have a second source. (And that's how AMD got into the clone business.) DOS 1.0 and CP/M ran EXACTLY the same software, they were two sources for the same thing. At first. Paul Allen didn't give up on Unix, of course. He knew the PC memory would grow and someday would be enough to run Unix, so in he set about making a migration path from DOS to unix. The dos 2.0 manuals went out and said that DOS would someday be replaced with Xenix, and in the meantime here's a lot of unix functionality to get you used to it. He added subdirectories (using \ instead of / only because / was already the command line option indicator. "dir /s". In 2.0 the deprecated that and changed it to "dir -s" as the recommended method, to be unixish.) Plus device drivers, pipes and redirects (hacked onto the CP/M base as best they could), and of course file control blocks were replaced with file handles. The dos 2.0 manual eventual promised they'd give DOS multiple process support (multitasking). Dos 3.0 was mostly based on adding new hardware support, specifically hard drives since the XT was coming out. And it's about this time (1983ish) that Allen got sick and took a leave of absence from microsoft which he never returned from. And Microsoft's technical side fell apart, but not until after they shipped DOS 3. When allen left, two things happened. 1) Gates was left with absolute power within Microsoft and started succumbing to it. (He was always a greedy bastard, but so are steve jobs, larry ellison, the heads of commodore and atari, and just about everybody else in the business. Linus has his "i'm a bastard" speech too...) 2) The technical side of Microsoft imploded (at the mercy of marketing). Xenix was unloaded on the Santa-Cruz operation almost immediately, and Gates allowed microsoft to be led around by the nose by IBM for the next five years or so in place of any in-house technical agenda. (And hence OS/2 1.0)... Did I mention I'm writing a book on all this? (The history of linux and the computer industry, going back to World War II...) This makes me the only person I know who's excited about finding ~50 issues of "Compute" and "Compute's gazette" from the mid 80's at a garage sale. An the university of texas's library has been quite a help. So have the used book stores... Still trying to figure out a title tho
RE: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
>Did I mention I'm writing a book on all this? (The history of linux and the >computer industry, going back to World War II...) This makes me the only >person I know who's excited about finding ~50 issues of "Compute" and >"Compute's gazette" from the mid 80's at a garage sale. An the university of >texas's library has been quite a help. So have the used book stores... If your interested in old magazines, I had saved literally dozens of 80's computer magazines, Compute, Computes Gazette, and some others. I just cleaned up the house, but may have some left. I didn't think anyone was interested in this stuff, and threw a bunch away. I would be happy to donate them if I have some left. Let me know offline, as this sounds like an interesting project. B. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thursday 21 June 2001 18:49, Alan Cox wrote: > > Except that Apple keeps the old code open. Probably because > > they'll gain nothing from it, and at best, they can appeal to > > the techies. > > A company that seems to write 'you shall not work on open source projects > in your spare time' into its employment contracts is not what I would call > friendly or want to work for. Im sure its only a small step to 'employees > shall not snowboard' 'employees shall not go skiing' - all of course argued > for the same reason as being essential to the company interest This IS the company that had the "I work 90 hours all the time" club with t-shirts and everything back under Jobs in the early 80's. And far more recently, where at least one employee got in trouble for "thinking different' with a parody site involving famous serial killers. The "Proprietary frosting" model is fine for leaf-node projects like games. But if the new layer is infrastructure other people are expected to build on top of, then what you're really saying is "I want slaves". Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 22.06.01 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Thursday 21 June 2001 18:49, Alan Cox wrote: > > > > Except that Apple keeps the old code open. Probably because > > > they'll gain nothing from it, and at best, they can appeal to > > > the techies. > > > > A company that seems to write 'you shall not work on open source projects > > in your spare time' into its employment contracts is not what I would call > > friendly or want to work for. Im sure its only a small step to 'employees > > shall not snowboard' 'employees shall not go skiing' - all of course > > argued for the same reason as being essential to the company interest > > This IS the company that had the "I work 90 hours all the time" club with > t-shirts and everything back under Jobs in the early 80's. And far more > recently, where at least one employee got in trouble for "thinking > different' with a parody site involving famous serial killers. > > The "Proprietary frosting" model is fine for leaf-node projects like games. > But if the new layer is infrastructure other people are expected to build on > top of, then what you're really saying is "I want slaves". Hmm. This *is* the company that has at least one guy full-time working on merging their changes back into gcc (with the right Copyright assignments), and where the guy in question does discuss how to make gcc work nice with both Apple's application framework and the GPL clone of it. Oh, and one intern working right now to improve gcc's errors-and-warnings code, because that's what the gcc list came up with as a task. Sure, that's not many people in such a large company, but it's a vast difference from MS, and it's also a vast difference from the earlier Apple from the look-and-feel lawsuit age. For a while, they also paid someone for working on Debian's packaging tool (dpkg) which they now use for Darwin; at the time, that guy was practically the dpkg lead developer. And don't forget MkLinux. Apple is not another Red Hat, but they're not a Black Hat either. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
Alan Cox wrote: > > > > Do they include the source? There's a CD of source that you can buy > > > for $20 but gcc isn't listed > > > > I'm not sure if they are allowed to do that. See clause 1 (c): > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdn-files/027/001/516/eula_mit.htm > Minor note: 1) The above link is now gone... 2) The above EULA was examined very closely by various communications manufactures. If the wording remains the same when the library gets out of BETA there may be some interesting counter EULAs. > Slight oops on their part, but then that license is fairly new. I don't > think it is aimed at the Linux world though. Microsoft are trying to prevent > something else - and its all about lock in again. > > If they prohibit people from linking free software with their own libraries > it allows them to prevent cost effective applications becoming available on > their platform so they can continue to inflate their prices. In paticular > I suspect this is aimed much more at things like OpenOffice, MySql on Windows, > Mozilla and friends. > > Of course in two years time no doubt "in the customers interest" it will be > Microsoft approved developers only , and a while after that nobody else will > be allowed to make apps for their product. > > Alan > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 02:21:18PM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > Name one thing Microsoft actually invented. Other than Microsoft Bob. I remember there being a web page where all of Microsoft's "innovations" were listed and where they bought or stole it from. The only things that were really Microsoft's invention were, at that time, found to be a) the .ini config file format (which has spread outside of the MS world) and b) the annoying paper clip. Does anyone have the URL handy? Try finding that in a search engine... -- Andreas E. Bombe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>DSA key 0x04880A44 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: The latest Microsoft FUD. This time from BillG, himself.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 08:05:41PM +0200, Andreas Bombe wrote: > On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 02:21:18PM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > > Name one thing Microsoft actually invented. Other than Microsoft Bob. > > were listed and where they bought or stole it from. The only things > that were really Microsoft's invention were, at that time, found to be > a) the .ini config file format (which has spread outside of the MS > world) and b) the annoying paper clip. i don't believe the paperclip was their idea either. the original company or product was named something todo with birds? parrots maybe. 'tis a distant memory. j. -- "Bobby, jiggle Grandpa's rat so it looks alive, please" -- gary larson - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
