Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Remember, Linux uses > Posix (although we don't SAY posix much because that's > another trademark and nobody jumps through the hoops > to re-test each new conbination of kernel version X > with utility set Y). POSIX is not a trademark. The name refers to an IEEE/ISO/IEC standard. You don't *have* to run any tests to claim that Linux (+ libc + utilities) conforms to POSIX. But if you don't run a suitable test suite, how can you be confident that it does conform to POSIX? (The origin of the term POSIX may be a surprise to some. See http://www.linuxcare.com/viewpoints/os-interviews/12-14-99.epl>). David Wragg - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember, Linux uses Posix (although we don't SAY posix much because that's another trademark and nobody jumps through the hoops to re-test each new conbination of kernel version X with utility set Y). POSIX is not a trademark. The name refers to an IEEE/ISO/IEC standard. You don't *have* to run any tests to claim that Linux (+ libc + utilities) conforms to POSIX. But if you don't run a suitable test suite, how can you be confident that it does conform to POSIX? (The origin of the term POSIX may be a surprise to some. See URL:http://www.linuxcare.com/viewpoints/os-interviews/12-14-99.epl). David Wragg - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
> I am not sure it is a big deal. If you read the > comment it was more of an off-the-cuff remark. > > I doubt anyone would testify in court that McNealy > said this. The only way it is something to worry > about is if they used it in a printed format (IANAL) Law isn't an all-or-nothing thing. Obviously this isn't worth a lawsuit. By itself it's not even close. But sending an official letter asking them to respect the trademark counts as "defending the trademark" if it's abused in the future and we DO want to get serious about it. (Neutralizes this as a precedent slimy lawyers can point to of "Linux" being undefendable as a trademark and instead being a generic term.) And if the pattern of behavior WERE to continue/get worse, having gone through the appropriate steps way back when (measured, proprotionate response to earlier incidents) makes a much firmer foundation for a lawsuit later. And, because Sun's lawyers know that last point, they're fairly likely to take it seriously enough to let McNealy know that his course of action carries certain risks. (Remember that Meme Hacking talk, at the Fortune 500 it's all about reducing and managing risk.) It's a bit like saying your cat's name when you see them up on the coffee table where they're not supposed to be. It's not the same as actually punishing them, just letting them know you're aware that they're doing it. > Kevin Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [OT] Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- Dana Lacoste <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't think he did that at all : > (Devil's Advocate time :) Always a fun occupation. :) > What he did was say that, while everyone was looking > at Linux as the solution to modern computing > problems, > he didn't need to : he already has Solaris. So > Solaris > is his "Linux". The question he was responding to was why Sun hadn't put out a Linux version of some solaris-only piece of software. His answer was that Solaris was Sun's implementation of Linux. > A matter of grammar, not legal or technical terms : > he > didn't say that Solaris IS linux; he used a metaphor > : > "[Solaris] is our implementation of Linux". (I'm going to resort to a sports analogy. Brace yourself. No, I don't know which sport. Volleyball, possibly.) Yeah, it's a borderline foul. But I still think it deserves a warning from the referee. (It's over, you can relax now.) Point: I really do think somebody official should send the guy a letter asking him to be careful around the trademark. > I'm not saying he's RIGHT : I'm just saying that he > didn't intend to abuse the Linux trademark. He's Somebody asked him a question about why there was no Linux version of a piece of software, and he attacked the validity of the question by saying Solaris is Sun's implementation of Linux. My reading of it is that he didn't answer the question, instead he implied very strongly that the question was invalid, and did so by implying very strongly that Solaris -IS- Linux hence no need for a seperate Linux version. Either he's fundamentally confused, or he's intentionally trying to be confusing. The first calls for clarification, the second calls for defending the infringed trademark. I'm not sure which of the two would be "giving him the benefit of the doubt", neither's particularly flattering. > taken a mix of (B) and (C) from above, claiming that > his Solaris product can accomplish the same product > targets that Linux does. But that's not actually what he said, is it? > Why should Sun provide anything for Linux if they > already have Solaris providing all of the > functionality? He could have said that, true. Would have been well within his rights to say it, and a valid commercial strategy (although not necessarily a winning one). But that's not what he said. > Could I say that Wine is my Windows implementation? You could say the sky is green. The more interesting question is, are you the one putting out Wine? Winehq.com doesn't claim Wine is a windows implementation, does it? It calls it an implementation of the Windows APIs. > Windows is a trademark, but everyone knows what I > mean, right? > Microsoft's not going to be writing me any letters, > right? Actually, I wouldn't be too suprised if they did. They have lawyers on salary just waiting for something to do. The question is, are you big/important/noticeable enough to go after? By the way, have you read the actual "about Wine" page from Wine's site? http://www.winehq.com/about.shtml Trademark acknowledgement is at the bottom (albiet in a rather vague way), and the "about Wine" section is quite clear on what Wine is and what it isn't. > (well, none that I'm going to pay attention to, > right? :) But you're not a corporation, are you? > All just rhetoric, of course. > Advocacy doesn't belong on linux-kernel :) I'm not advocacying, I raised a question about the Linux trademark in the venue I thought most appropriate (don't know of a better one), and I'm following up on the replies. I've trimmed the "cc:" list on several occasions. It doesn't noticeably seem to be skewing the overall signal to noise ratio of l-k so far. :) > -- > Dana Lacoste > Linux Developer > Peregrine Systems > Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been > calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. > Trademark violation time. Yeah... isn't he a moron :) > Assuming the quote is accurate (which, being ZD, is > iffy), this strikes me as a mondo trademark violation, > and exactly the sort of thing the Linux trademark was > designed to prevent. Solaris is NOT Linux. I am not sure it is a big deal. If you read the comment it was more of an off-the-cuff remark. I doubt anyone would testify in court that McNealy said this. The only way it is something to worry about is if they used it in a printed format (IANAL) Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 Fist in the air in the land of hypocrisy! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE6OaHLAwM6xb2dfE0RAhjrAJ455OifteP/TUPNYPHSXS5rHlIpRQCfftmR 1vhBmtZke0649VZCouwOgJk= =uO3l -END PGP SIGNATURE- radar domestic disruption SEAL Team 6 Cocaine Ortega arrangements Panama Ft. Bragg Waco, Texas PLO ammunition genetic supercomputer FBI Uzi - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
Rob Landley wrote : > Sun feels that their core product, Solaris, is > threatened by Linux. They have several options: > A) Jump on board and use Linux on their hardware. > B) Improve Solaris until it can compete on its own > merits. > C) Market Solaris better, to make people want Solaris > instead of Linux. > D) Confuse people into thinking that Linux and Solaris > are the same thing. > > He's gone for D, and he's run straight into the Linux > trademark doing so. If everybody wants to abolish the > Linux trademark, that's fine. But if we don't defend > it here, I really do think it becomes too weak to be > useful in other situations. I don't think he did that at all : (Devil's Advocate time :) What he did was say that, while everyone was looking at Linux as the solution to modern computing problems, he didn't need to : he already has Solaris. So Solaris is his "Linux". A matter of grammar, not legal or technical terms : he didn't say that Solaris IS linux; he used a metaphor : "[Solaris] is our implementation of Linux". I'm not saying he's RIGHT : I'm just saying that he didn't intend to abuse the Linux trademark. He's taken a mix of (B) and (C) from above, claiming that his Solaris product can accomplish the same product targets that Linux does. Why should Sun provide anything for Linux if they already have Solaris providing all of the functionality? Could I say that Wine is my Windows implementation? Windows is a trademark, but everyone knows what I mean, right? Microsoft's not going to be writing me any letters, right? (well, none that I'm going to pay attention to, right? :) All just rhetoric, of course. Advocacy doesn't belong on linux-kernel :) -- Dana Lacoste Linux Developer Peregrine Systems - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- Larry McVoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yup, that's Scooter (all the Sun old timers call him > Scooter, I dunno where > it came from, I wasn't enough of an old timer). > And, yeah, he does a lot > of marketing. But in many respects, he's the > perfect CEO. He's always > out in public, pushing the message, and he tends to > leave the day to day > stuff to the other folks. I'll take him over Gates > any day of the week. I'm not against them, and I wouldn't make too big a deal out of it. I'm just recommending that somebody official ask them politely to stop doing it. Here's how I see it: Sun feels that their core product, Solaris, is threatened by Linux. They have several options: A) Jump on board and use Linux on their hardware. B) Improve Solaris until it can compete on its own merits. C) Market Solaris better, to make people want Solaris instead of Linux. D) Confuse people into thinking that Linux and Solaris are the same thing. He's gone for D, and he's run straight into the Linux trademark doing so. If everybody wants to abolish the Linux trademark, that's fine. But if we don't defend it here, I really do think it becomes too weak to be useful in other situations. McNealy wants to leverage the growth of Linux to help his company, which is fine, but he's going about it the wrong way. What if IBM had done this sort of thing with AIX or Monterey instead of miraculously acquiring a clue? IBM hasn't, they've respected the Linux trademark very conscientiously. > Scott's only big sin was to dump SunOS for Slowaris. I still dunno WHY that happened (other than gaining threading), but I suspect that should go to email... Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- Rik van Riel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Rob Landley wrote: > > >people just don't get it, do you? All Linux > > >applications run on Solaris, which is our > > >implementation of Linux. Now ask the question > again," > > I wouldn't worry about this. It's only a question > of time > before people will start to ask him why Sun isn't > shipping > the "original Linux" but has their own, strange, > version ;) Sure. But why HAVE a trademark if we don't enforce it? Grassroots support is always a wondeful thing, and educating the public is extremely important. Then again, what McNealy's trying to confuse his customers. Enforcing the trademark would therefore serve an educational purpose, wouldn't it? :) > cheers, > > Rik Rob > Hollywood goes for world dumbination, > Trailer at 11. Projector finally fixed, film at 11. Coughing fit strikes city, phlegm at 11. Mad dog on mains treat, foam at 11... This counts as a genre, doesn't it? Rob ... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- "Jon 'maddog' Hall, Executive Director, Linux International" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [Warning: Highly controversial topic ahead. > Messenger does not want to be shot] Aw come on, it's traditional. :) > This does bring up an interesting situation. > > The Linux community keeps saying that "Linux is a > re-implementation of Unix." > > This gets X/Open all pissed off at us, because Linux Understood. Linux is NOT Unix. (Just as Gnu's Not Unix, either. :) We do go to certain lengths so as not to violate their trademark, and when we slip up we acknowledge it, back off, and clarify. This is what SUN needs to do. I think LI or somebody needs to send them a letter informing them that Linux is, in point of fact, a trademark, and that they can't throw it around like a generic term or it will go the way of "asprin". The rules for using that trademark were at least partly defined almost a year ago. The following post was picked up and duplicated at dozens of locations (check google): http://boudicca.tux.org/hypermail/linux-kernel/2000week04/0654.html If Sun's going to start calling Solaris Linux, then I think we need to have somebody official send them a letter asking them not to, or at the VERY least acknowledging the trademark. > Yet there is no real definition for "Linux". A definite point. However, one obvious definition is something that uses the Linux kernel. You can have a Linux-workalike that is not, in point of fact, Linux. (Just as you can have a generic version of acetominaphen that is not, in point of fact, Tylenol. This sort of distinction is what a trademark is FOR.) > Some people (the FSF for instance) say that Linux is > just the kernel, but > there are different kernels, with different patches. And there are many variants of "cheerios" (honey nut, frosted, etc). And there are many cheerio-like toasted oatmeal loop thingy cereals on the market. But they have to have their own name, they can't infringe on somebody else's trademark. > There was even a Microkernel version of Linux called > "MKLinux". Good point. But it was fundamentally a port of the Linux kernel to a new environment. It started from the Linux kernel (didn't start as a seperate project), and it ended up containing huge quantities of the Linux kernel. Moreover, they had Linus's fairly explicit permission to use the name anyway, which glosses over a lot of sins. :) (Not to mention this was back before we particularly cared about trademark issues, but that's not a good legal argument, is it?) > Others say that Linux is the whole distribution, but > there are lots of > distributions, all different (Red Hat, SuSE, etc.) > There are different > placements of files in the file tree. True. But there we go back to Linus's january post, which DID cover using the name "Linux" for larger projects (like Red Hat Inc.) Intent matters. Sun's intent is clearly to take an existing system and jump on the Linux bandwagon, and confuse people as to what is Linux and what isn't. There's a lot of Linux-like systems out there, and yes most of them predate Linux in some way. Forget the proprietary stuff for a moment, look at BSD. BSD isn't Linux. Linux isn't BSD either. They're functionally equivalent in most respects, but neither project is attempting to take credit for the work of the other. Sun is free to put out a version of Linux. But to call Solaris Linux is, in my opinion, going over the edge here and diluting the trademark. > I know from conversations with Linus that he > anticipates having (perhaps) > radically different kernels on top of "BIG IRON" > machines, where the kernels > (and the distributions) come from the "BIG IRON" > makers. Sure. But they diverge from the same code base. Look at it this way: can the linux-kernel mailing list community take any credit/blame for what goes on in those "Big Iron" kernels? Yes, we can. We're not ENTIRELY responsible for them (any more than we're responsible for the patched kernels Red Hat puts out), but they are in large part based on/derived from the work done here. Especially the work of Linus torvalds, Top Banana of this community and personal owner of the Linux trademark. Can we or Linus take credit or blame for Solaris? No. It's not us. We didn't do any of it, we didn't contribute to it or prevent anything from being added to it, we didn't even advise it's development. It was and is a totally seperate project that has been attempting to converge with a more succesful project, live in its shadow, and take credit from it. This is 100% what trademarks are FOR. > The licensing of the Linux trademark has basically > allowed someone to use > the term "Linux" in their own trademark, but has > done nothing to prevent > someone from comparing their accumulation of code > with "Linux", and nothing > to define what Linux actually is. Comparing with Linux, no. Saying Solaris is an implementation of Linux, yes. The fact we haven't done this YET is
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 08:15:41PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:54:21PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: > > > > > > > Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been > > > > calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. > > > > Trademark violation time. > > > > > > It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking > > > about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can > > > imagine that such a person would make this statement. > > > > Ehrm. If I'm not all wrong, Scott McNealy is the CEO of Sun... > > Yes, someone also noted that to me. His words sound like those of some > marketing guy, or some politican (for the Dutch guys : Kok :-)) Yup, that's Scooter (all the Sun old timers call him Scooter, I dunno where it came from, I wasn't enough of an old timer). And, yeah, he does a lot of marketing. But in many respects, he's the perfect CEO. He's always out in public, pushing the message, and he tends to leave the day to day stuff to the other folks. I'll take him over Gates any day of the week. Scott's only big sin was to dump SunOS for Slowaris. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:54:21PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: > > > > > Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been > > > calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. > > > Trademark violation time. > > > > It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking > > about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can > > imagine that such a person would make this statement. > > Ehrm. If I'm not all wrong, Scott McNealy is the CEO of Sun... Yes, someone also noted that to me. His words sound like those of some marketing guy, or some politican (for the Dutch guys : Kok :-)) Igmar - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
> > >When asked by a reporter why Sun's new clustering > > >software was restricted to Solaris and not available > > >on Linux, McNealy's aggravation seemed to peak. "You > > >people just don't get it, do you? All Linux > > >applications run on Solaris, which is our > > >implementation of Linux. Now ask the question again," > > I wouldn't worry about this. It's only a question of time > before people will start to ask him why Sun isn't shipping > the "original Linux" but has their own, strange, version ;) hahahaha... I like that view.. Nice one for my infoline :) Regards, Igmar - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:54:21PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: > > > Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been > > calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. > > Trademark violation time. > > It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking > about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can > imagine that such a person would make this statement. Ehrm. If I'm not all wrong, Scott McNealy is the CEO of Sun... /David _ _ // David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> /> Northern lights wander \\ // Project MCA Linux hacker// Dance across the winter sky // \> http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Rob Landley wrote: > Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been > calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. > Trademark violation time. > > The article's here: > > http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-12-14-020-04-NW-CY > > Quick quote: > > >When asked by a reporter why Sun's new clustering > >software was restricted to Solaris and not available > >on Linux, McNealy's aggravation seemed to peak. "You > >people just don't get it, do you? All Linux > >applications run on Solaris, which is our > >implementation of Linux. Now ask the question again," I wouldn't worry about this. It's only a question of time before people will start to ask him why Sun isn't shipping the "original Linux" but has their own, strange, version ;) cheers, Rik -- Hollywood goes for world dumbination, Trailer at 11. http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com.br/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
[Warning: Highly controversial topic ahead. Messenger does not want to be shot] This does bring up an interesting situation. The Linux community keeps saying that "Linux is a re-implementation of Unix." This gets X/Open all pissed off at us, because Linux has not passed the qualification test suites which they use for branding. So we get around that by saying "Unix is a lot like Linux, except it costs a lot of money, comes in binary form, etc. etc." Yet there is no real definition for "Linux". Some people (the FSF for instance) say that Linux is just the kernel, but there are different kernels, with different patches. There was even a Microkernel version of Linux called "MKLinux". Others say that Linux is the whole distribution, but there are lots of distributions, all different (Red Hat, SuSE, etc.) There are different placements of files in the file tree. I know from conversations with Linus that he anticipates having (perhaps) radically different kernels on top of "BIG IRON" machines, where the kernels (and the distributions) come from the "BIG IRON" makers. The licensing of the Linux trademark has basically allowed someone to use the term "Linux" in their own trademark, but has done nothing to prevent someone from comparing their accumulation of code with "Linux", and nothing to define what Linux actually is. If it is true that "all Linux applications work on top of Solaris", what standard prevents them from calling Solaris just another implementation of Linux? And should it? >From an ISV perspective, the more distributions of software that run their products binary compatible, the better off we are against Microsoft. If Linux does not handle the very high-end machines (yet), then why not let those applications run on Solaris? If people want to pay for Solaris, take the binary-only distribution from Sun and run it on that large iron, why not? On the other hand, I think we need some type of definition to what is called "Linux". Perhaps this is where the Linux Standard Base might be appropriate. Regards, md -- = Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director, Linux(R) Intern'lDirector of Linux Evangelism Linux International VA Linux Systems 80 Amherst St. 1382 Bordeaux Ave. Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. Sunnyvale, CA 94089 Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.li.org WWW: http://www.valinux.com Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
> Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been > calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. > Trademark violation time. It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can imagine that such a person would make this statement. Igmar - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. Trademark violation time. It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can imagine that such a person would make this statement. Igmar - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
[Warning: Highly controversial topic ahead. Messenger does not want to be shot] This does bring up an interesting situation. The Linux community keeps saying that "Linux is a re-implementation of Unix." This gets X/Open all pissed off at us, because Linux has not passed the qualification test suites which they use for branding. So we get around that by saying "Unix is a lot like Linux, except it costs a lot of money, comes in binary form, etc. etc." Yet there is no real definition for "Linux". Some people (the FSF for instance) say that Linux is just the kernel, but there are different kernels, with different patches. There was even a Microkernel version of Linux called "MKLinux". Others say that Linux is the whole distribution, but there are lots of distributions, all different (Red Hat, SuSE, etc.) There are different placements of files in the file tree. I know from conversations with Linus that he anticipates having (perhaps) radically different kernels on top of "BIG IRON" machines, where the kernels (and the distributions) come from the "BIG IRON" makers. The licensing of the Linux trademark has basically allowed someone to use the term "Linux" in their own trademark, but has done nothing to prevent someone from comparing their accumulation of code with "Linux", and nothing to define what Linux actually is. If it is true that "all Linux applications work on top of Solaris", what standard prevents them from calling Solaris just another implementation of Linux? And should it? From an ISV perspective, the more distributions of software that run their products binary compatible, the better off we are against Microsoft. If Linux does not handle the very high-end machines (yet), then why not let those applications run on Solaris? If people want to pay for Solaris, take the binary-only distribution from Sun and run it on that large iron, why not? On the other hand, I think we need some type of definition to what is called "Linux". Perhaps this is where the Linux Standard Base might be appropriate. Regards, md -- = Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director, Linux(R) Intern'lDirector of Linux Evangelism Linux International VA Linux Systems 80 Amherst St. 1382 Bordeaux Ave. Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. Sunnyvale, CA 94089 Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.li.org WWW: http://www.valinux.com Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Rob Landley wrote: Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. Trademark violation time. The article's here: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-12-14-020-04-NW-CY Quick quote: When asked by a reporter why Sun's new clustering software was restricted to Solaris and not available on Linux, McNealy's aggravation seemed to peak. "You people just don't get it, do you? All Linux applications run on Solaris, which is our implementation of Linux. Now ask the question again," I wouldn't worry about this. It's only a question of time before people will start to ask him why Sun isn't shipping the "original Linux" but has their own, strange, version ;) cheers, Rik -- Hollywood goes for world dumbination, Trailer at 11. http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com.br/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:54:21PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. Trademark violation time. It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can imagine that such a person would make this statement. Ehrm. If I'm not all wrong, Scott McNealy is the CEO of Sun... /David _ _ // David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] / Northern lights wander \\ // Project MCA Linux hacker// Dance across the winter sky // \ http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao// Full colour fire / - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
When asked by a reporter why Sun's new clustering software was restricted to Solaris and not available on Linux, McNealy's aggravation seemed to peak. "You people just don't get it, do you? All Linux applications run on Solaris, which is our implementation of Linux. Now ask the question again," I wouldn't worry about this. It's only a question of time before people will start to ask him why Sun isn't shipping the "original Linux" but has their own, strange, version ;) hahahaha... I like that view.. Nice one for my infoline :) Regards, Igmar - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 08:15:41PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:54:21PM +0100, Igmar Palsenberg wrote: Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. Trademark violation time. It's probably a marketing guy that has no idea about what he is talking about. I've seen good Linux related stuff come from Sun and I hardly can imagine that such a person would make this statement. Ehrm. If I'm not all wrong, Scott McNealy is the CEO of Sun... Yes, someone also noted that to me. His words sound like those of some marketing guy, or some politican (for the Dutch guys : Kok :-)) Yup, that's Scooter (all the Sun old timers call him Scooter, I dunno where it came from, I wasn't enough of an old timer). And, yeah, he does a lot of marketing. But in many respects, he's the perfect CEO. He's always out in public, pushing the message, and he tends to leave the day to day stuff to the other folks. I'll take him over Gates any day of the week. Scott's only big sin was to dump SunOS for Slowaris. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- "Jon 'maddog' Hall, Executive Director, Linux International" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Warning: Highly controversial topic ahead. Messenger does not want to be shot] Aw come on, it's traditional. :) This does bring up an interesting situation. The Linux community keeps saying that "Linux is a re-implementation of Unix." This gets X/Open all pissed off at us, because Linux Understood. Linux is NOT Unix. (Just as Gnu's Not Unix, either. :) We do go to certain lengths so as not to violate their trademark, and when we slip up we acknowledge it, back off, and clarify. This is what SUN needs to do. I think LI or somebody needs to send them a letter informing them that Linux is, in point of fact, a trademark, and that they can't throw it around like a generic term or it will go the way of "asprin". The rules for using that trademark were at least partly defined almost a year ago. The following post was picked up and duplicated at dozens of locations (check google): http://boudicca.tux.org/hypermail/linux-kernel/2000week04/0654.html If Sun's going to start calling Solaris Linux, then I think we need to have somebody official send them a letter asking them not to, or at the VERY least acknowledging the trademark. Yet there is no real definition for "Linux". A definite point. However, one obvious definition is something that uses the Linux kernel. You can have a Linux-workalike that is not, in point of fact, Linux. (Just as you can have a generic version of acetominaphen that is not, in point of fact, Tylenol. This sort of distinction is what a trademark is FOR.) Some people (the FSF for instance) say that Linux is just the kernel, but there are different kernels, with different patches. And there are many variants of "cheerios" (honey nut, frosted, etc). And there are many cheerio-like toasted oatmeal loop thingy cereals on the market. But they have to have their own name, they can't infringe on somebody else's trademark. There was even a Microkernel version of Linux called "MKLinux". Good point. But it was fundamentally a port of the Linux kernel to a new environment. It started from the Linux kernel (didn't start as a seperate project), and it ended up containing huge quantities of the Linux kernel. Moreover, they had Linus's fairly explicit permission to use the name anyway, which glosses over a lot of sins. :) (Not to mention this was back before we particularly cared about trademark issues, but that's not a good legal argument, is it?) Others say that Linux is the whole distribution, but there are lots of distributions, all different (Red Hat, SuSE, etc.) There are different placements of files in the file tree. True. But there we go back to Linus's january post, which DID cover using the name "Linux" for larger projects (like Red Hat Inc.) Intent matters. Sun's intent is clearly to take an existing system and jump on the Linux bandwagon, and confuse people as to what is Linux and what isn't. There's a lot of Linux-like systems out there, and yes most of them predate Linux in some way. Forget the proprietary stuff for a moment, look at BSD. BSD isn't Linux. Linux isn't BSD either. They're functionally equivalent in most respects, but neither project is attempting to take credit for the work of the other. Sun is free to put out a version of Linux. But to call Solaris Linux is, in my opinion, going over the edge here and diluting the trademark. I know from conversations with Linus that he anticipates having (perhaps) radically different kernels on top of "BIG IRON" machines, where the kernels (and the distributions) come from the "BIG IRON" makers. Sure. But they diverge from the same code base. Look at it this way: can the linux-kernel mailing list community take any credit/blame for what goes on in those "Big Iron" kernels? Yes, we can. We're not ENTIRELY responsible for them (any more than we're responsible for the patched kernels Red Hat puts out), but they are in large part based on/derived from the work done here. Especially the work of Linus torvalds, Top Banana of this community and personal owner of the Linux trademark. Can we or Linus take credit or blame for Solaris? No. It's not us. We didn't do any of it, we didn't contribute to it or prevent anything from being added to it, we didn't even advise it's development. It was and is a totally seperate project that has been attempting to converge with a more succesful project, live in its shadow, and take credit from it. This is 100% what trademarks are FOR. The licensing of the Linux trademark has basically allowed someone to use the term "Linux" in their own trademark, but has done nothing to prevent someone from comparing their accumulation of code with "Linux", and nothing to define what Linux actually is. Comparing with Linux, no. Saying Solaris is an implementation of Linux, yes. The fact we haven't done this YET is why we need to NOW. If you don't
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- Rik van Riel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Rob Landley wrote: people just don't get it, do you? All Linux applications run on Solaris, which is our implementation of Linux. Now ask the question again," I wouldn't worry about this. It's only a question of time before people will start to ask him why Sun isn't shipping the "original Linux" but has their own, strange, version ;) Sure. But why HAVE a trademark if we don't enforce it? Grassroots support is always a wondeful thing, and educating the public is extremely important. Then again, what McNealy's trying to confuse his customers. Enforcing the trademark would therefore serve an educational purpose, wouldn't it? :) cheers, Rik Rob Hollywood goes for world dumbination, Trailer at 11. Projector finally fixed, film at 11. Coughing fit strikes city, phlegm at 11. Mad dog on mains treat, foam at 11... This counts as a genre, doesn't it? Rob ... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- Larry McVoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup, that's Scooter (all the Sun old timers call him Scooter, I dunno where it came from, I wasn't enough of an old timer). And, yeah, he does a lot of marketing. But in many respects, he's the perfect CEO. He's always out in public, pushing the message, and he tends to leave the day to day stuff to the other folks. I'll take him over Gates any day of the week. I'm not against them, and I wouldn't make too big a deal out of it. I'm just recommending that somebody official ask them politely to stop doing it. Here's how I see it: Sun feels that their core product, Solaris, is threatened by Linux. They have several options: A) Jump on board and use Linux on their hardware. B) Improve Solaris until it can compete on its own merits. C) Market Solaris better, to make people want Solaris instead of Linux. D) Confuse people into thinking that Linux and Solaris are the same thing. He's gone for D, and he's run straight into the Linux trademark doing so. If everybody wants to abolish the Linux trademark, that's fine. But if we don't defend it here, I really do think it becomes too weak to be useful in other situations. McNealy wants to leverage the growth of Linux to help his company, which is fine, but he's going about it the wrong way. What if IBM had done this sort of thing with AIX or Monterey instead of miraculously acquiring a clue? IBM hasn't, they've respected the Linux trademark very conscientiously. Scott's only big sin was to dump SunOS for Slowaris. I still dunno WHY that happened (other than gaining threading), but I suspect that should go to email... Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
Rob Landley wrote : Sun feels that their core product, Solaris, is threatened by Linux. They have several options: A) Jump on board and use Linux on their hardware. B) Improve Solaris until it can compete on its own merits. C) Market Solaris better, to make people want Solaris instead of Linux. D) Confuse people into thinking that Linux and Solaris are the same thing. He's gone for D, and he's run straight into the Linux trademark doing so. If everybody wants to abolish the Linux trademark, that's fine. But if we don't defend it here, I really do think it becomes too weak to be useful in other situations. I don't think he did that at all : (Devil's Advocate time :) What he did was say that, while everyone was looking at Linux as the solution to modern computing problems, he didn't need to : he already has Solaris. So Solaris is his "Linux". A matter of grammar, not legal or technical terms : he didn't say that Solaris IS linux; he used a metaphor : "[Solaris] is our implementation of Linux". I'm not saying he's RIGHT : I'm just saying that he didn't intend to abuse the Linux trademark. He's taken a mix of (B) and (C) from above, claiming that his Solaris product can accomplish the same product targets that Linux does. Why should Sun provide anything for Linux if they already have Solaris providing all of the functionality? Could I say that Wine is my Windows implementation? Windows is a trademark, but everyone knows what I mean, right? Microsoft's not going to be writing me any letters, right? (well, none that I'm going to pay attention to, right? :) All just rhetoric, of course. Advocacy doesn't belong on linux-kernel :) -- Dana Lacoste Linux Developer Peregrine Systems - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Heads up everybody. Scott McNealy has apparently been calling Solaris Sun's implementation of Linux. Trademark violation time. snip Yeah... isn't he a moron :) Assuming the quote is accurate (which, being ZD, is iffy), this strikes me as a mondo trademark violation, and exactly the sort of thing the Linux trademark was designed to prevent. Solaris is NOT Linux. snip I am not sure it is a big deal. If you read the comment it was more of an off-the-cuff remark. I doubt anyone would testify in court that McNealy said this. The only way it is something to worry about is if they used it in a printed format (IANAL) Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 Fist in the air in the land of hypocrisy! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE6OaHLAwM6xb2dfE0RAhjrAJ455OifteP/TUPNYPHSXS5rHlIpRQCfftmR 1vhBmtZke0649VZCouwOgJk= =uO3l -END PGP SIGNATURE- radar domestic disruption SEAL Team 6 Cocaine Ortega arrangements Panama Ft. Bragg Waco, Texas PLO ammunition genetic supercomputer FBI Uzi - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [OT] Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
--- Dana Lacoste [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think he did that at all : (Devil's Advocate time :) Always a fun occupation. :) What he did was say that, while everyone was looking at Linux as the solution to modern computing problems, he didn't need to : he already has Solaris. So Solaris is his "Linux". The question he was responding to was why Sun hadn't put out a Linux version of some solaris-only piece of software. His answer was that Solaris was Sun's implementation of Linux. A matter of grammar, not legal or technical terms : he didn't say that Solaris IS linux; he used a metaphor : "[Solaris] is our implementation of Linux". (I'm going to resort to a sports analogy. Brace yourself. No, I don't know which sport. Volleyball, possibly.) Yeah, it's a borderline foul. But I still think it deserves a warning from the referee. (It's over, you can relax now.) Point: I really do think somebody official should send the guy a letter asking him to be careful around the trademark. I'm not saying he's RIGHT : I'm just saying that he didn't intend to abuse the Linux trademark. He's Somebody asked him a question about why there was no Linux version of a piece of software, and he attacked the validity of the question by saying Solaris is Sun's implementation of Linux. My reading of it is that he didn't answer the question, instead he implied very strongly that the question was invalid, and did so by implying very strongly that Solaris -IS- Linux hence no need for a seperate Linux version. Either he's fundamentally confused, or he's intentionally trying to be confusing. The first calls for clarification, the second calls for defending the infringed trademark. I'm not sure which of the two would be "giving him the benefit of the doubt", neither's particularly flattering. taken a mix of (B) and (C) from above, claiming that his Solaris product can accomplish the same product targets that Linux does. But that's not actually what he said, is it? Why should Sun provide anything for Linux if they already have Solaris providing all of the functionality? He could have said that, true. Would have been well within his rights to say it, and a valid commercial strategy (although not necessarily a winning one). But that's not what he said. Could I say that Wine is my Windows implementation? You could say the sky is green. The more interesting question is, are you the one putting out Wine? Winehq.com doesn't claim Wine is a windows implementation, does it? It calls it an implementation of the Windows APIs. Windows is a trademark, but everyone knows what I mean, right? Microsoft's not going to be writing me any letters, right? Actually, I wouldn't be too suprised if they did. They have lawyers on salary just waiting for something to do. The question is, are you big/important/noticeable enough to go after? By the way, have you read the actual "about Wine" page from Wine's site? http://www.winehq.com/about.shtml Trademark acknowledgement is at the bottom (albiet in a rather vague way), and the "about Wine" section is quite clear on what Wine is and what it isn't. (well, none that I'm going to pay attention to, right? :) But you're not a corporation, are you? All just rhetoric, of course. Advocacy doesn't belong on linux-kernel :) I'm not advocacying, I raised a question about the Linux trademark in the venue I thought most appropriate (don't know of a better one), and I'm following up on the replies. I've trimmed the "cc:" list on several occasions. It doesn't noticeably seem to be skewing the overall signal to noise ratio of l-k so far. :) -- Dana Lacoste Linux Developer Peregrine Systems Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Is there a Linux trademark issue with sun?
I am not sure it is a big deal. If you read the comment it was more of an off-the-cuff remark. I doubt anyone would testify in court that McNealy said this. The only way it is something to worry about is if they used it in a printed format (IANAL) Law isn't an all-or-nothing thing. Obviously this isn't worth a lawsuit. By itself it's not even close. But sending an official letter asking them to respect the trademark counts as "defending the trademark" if it's abused in the future and we DO want to get serious about it. (Neutralizes this as a precedent slimy lawyers can point to of "Linux" being undefendable as a trademark and instead being a generic term.) And if the pattern of behavior WERE to continue/get worse, having gone through the appropriate steps way back when (measured, proprotionate response to earlier incidents) makes a much firmer foundation for a lawsuit later. And, because Sun's lawyers know that last point, they're fairly likely to take it seriously enough to let McNealy know that his course of action carries certain risks. (Remember that Meme Hacking talk, at the Fortune 500 it's all about reducing and managing risk.) It's a bit like saying your cat's name when you see them up on the coffee table where they're not supposed to be. It's not the same as actually punishing them, just letting them know you're aware that they're doing it. Kevin Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
