Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- voting procedures

[Laura Abbott]

On 7/27/20 5:31 PM, Laura Abbott wrote:

On behalf of the Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board (TAB), I'd
like to announce the voting procedures for the 2020 TAB elections.
The pool of eligible voters will consist of the following:

1) All attendees of the Linux Plumbers conference (i.e. kernel summit)

2) Anyone who is not a kernel summit attendee will also be eligible to
vote if the following criteria are met:
-- There exists three kernel commits in a mainline or stable released
kernel that
--- Have a commit date in the year 2019 or 2020
--- Contain an e-mail address in one of the following tags or merged
tags (e.g. Reviewed-and-tested-by)
 Signed-off-by
 Tested-by
 Reported-by
 Reviewed-by
 Acked-by

We will be using the electronic voting method that we used in 2019. All
Linux Plumbers Attendees will automatically receive a ballot. Anyone
who is otherwise eligible to vote should e-mail 
tab-electi...@lists.linuxfoundation.org to request a ballot. The deadline

for requesting a ballot is August 17, 00:00 UTC (one week before
Linux Plumbers)

For those who would like to know the thought process behind this:

Last year, we successfully used electronic voting for the TAB
elections. Given the circumstances of this year, we have no other
reasonable option for voting. While we could continue to limit voting to
kernel summit attendees, one of the goals of moving away from in person
voting was to potentially expand the voter pool. Since kernel summit is
not being held in person this year, it makes sense to expand the voting
pool at the same time.

We will be sending a call for nominations and announcements about
when voting will start at a later date.

If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to the tab at
t...@lists.linuxfoundation.org


As a reminder, this vote is coming up. Some FAQs from last year on
virtual voting:

Q: What's the software used for voting?
A: We will be using the hosted version of the Condorcet Internet
Voting Service (CIVS) at https://civs.cs.cornell.edu

Q: Is this code open source?
A: Yes. The code is available under a BSD-like research license

Q: Is this method of voting secure?
A: Privacy and security is a focus of CIVS. See
https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/sec_priv.html for more information.

Q: The website mentions ranked choice voting. What is this?
A: In ranked choice voting, you rank your preferred choices from most
to least liked. The theory is this results in a more accurate
representation of what the voter pool wants.

Q: The description mentions an 'election supervisor'. What is this role?
A: The election supervisor's role is to start and stop the poll, send
links to voters, and set various options for the poll. A single e-mail
address is used to e-mail the link to manage the election, after which
anyone with the link can manage the poll.

Q: Who is the election supervisor for the TAB elections?
A: We have created a mailing list for election management, 
tab-electi...@lists.linuxfoundation.org


Q: What if I lose the e-mail before I vote?
A: Please e-mail tab-electi...@lists.linuxfoundation.org

Q: What if I want to change my vote?
A: This is not possible, please make sure you've made your final choices
when you click submit.

Q: What if I want to practice voting?
A: CIVS has a number of sample polls available. Feel free to vote in 
those to see how the process works.

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- Call for nominations

[Laura Abbott]

> On Aug 28, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Laura Abbott  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 9, 2019, at 2:26 AM, Laura Abbott  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>> Friendly reminder that the TAB elections are coming soon:
>> 
>> The Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board (TAB) serves as the
>> interface between the kernel development community and the Linux
>> Foundation. The TAB advises the Foundation on kernel-related matters,
>> helps member companies learn to work with the community, and works to
>> resolve community-related problems before they get out of hand.  We
>> also support the Code of Conduct committee in their mission.
>> 
>> The board has ten members, one of whom sits on the Linux Foundation
>> board of directors.
>> 
>> The election to select five TAB members will be held at the 2019 Kernel 
>> Summit
>> in Lisbon, Portugal September 9-11. As has been announced[2], we are moving 
>> to
>> an electronic voting system this year. Further details about the exact voting
>> procedures will be coming soon. Anyone is eligible to stand for election,
>> simply send your nomination to:
>> 
>> tech-board-discuss at lists.linux-foundation.org
>> 
>> With your nomination, please include a short candidate statement. This 
>> candidate
>> statement should focus on why you are running and what you hope to accomplish
>> on the TAB. We will be collecting these statements and making them publicly 
>> available.
>> 
>> The deadline for receiving nominations is 9am GMT+1 on September 9th (the 
>> first
>> day of Kernel Summit). Due to the use of electronic voting, this will be a 
>> hard
>> deadline!
>> 
>> Current TAB members, and their election year:
>> 
>> Jon Corbet   2017
>> Greg Kroah-Hartman   2017
>> Steven Rostedt   2017
>> Ted Tso  2017
>> Tim Bird 2017
>> 
>> Chris Mason  2018
>> Laura Abbott 2018
>> Olof Johansson   2018
>> Kees Cook2018
>> Dan Williams 2018
>> 
>> The five slots from 2017 are all up for election.  As always, please
>> let us know if you have questions, and please do consider running.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Laura
>> 
>> [1] TAB members sit for a term of two years, and half of the board is
>> up for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
>> The other five are halfway through their term and will be up for
>> election next year.
>> 
>> [2] 
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2019-July/006582.html
> 
> Reminder to send in your candidate statements, the current ones are
> available at 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E3_W1c-xJMx9o2PCnKiGt3vqs-mPh77yNO4GSqNipOQ


Final reminder, the deadline is Monday September 9th at  9am UTC+1
(that's 9am Lisbon time). Because we are doing electronic voting this is a hard 
deadline!

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- voting procedures

[Laura Abbott]

> On Sep 3, 2019, at 7:13 AM, Laura Abbott  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On behalf of the Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board (TAB), I'd like to
> take this opportunity to announce the voting procedures for the 2019 TAB
> elections. As was announced[1], this year we are moving to electronic voting.
> 
> Everyone who is registered for kernel summit (co-located with Linux Plumbers
> Conference in Lisbon this year) by September 8th 2019 is eligible to vote in
> this year's TAB elections. This includes everyone registered for Plumbers and
> Maintainers summit. All eligible voters will receive a link from
> Condorcet Internet Voting Service (https://civs.cs.cornell.edu) by the
> start of the first Plumbers session (September 9th 10am UTC+1). The voting
> will run until September 11th at 10am UTC+1.
> 
> The list of all candidates and their platform is available at the following
> Google doc
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E3_W1c-xJMx9o2PCnKiGt3vqs-mPh77yNO4GSqNipOQ/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> We will also be hosting an open TAB session at Plumbers on Monday
> September 9th at 18:30. A more detailed FAQ about voting procedures is
> below.
> 
> If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to
> t...@lists.linux-foundation.org .
> 
> Thanks,
> Laura
> 
> P.S. Please consider this a reminder to send in your TAB nominations!
> 
> [1] 
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2019-July/006582.html
> 
> ---
> 
> Q: Why are we making this change?
> A: As explained in the previous announcement,
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2019-July/006582.html
> In person voting has a number of limitations. We'd like to move to electronic
> voting with the objective of giving more members of our community a voice in
> the membership of the TAB
> 
> Q: Who is eligible to vote?
> A: All registered attendees of Plumbers and Kernel Maintainers Summit are
> eligible.
> 
> Q: If I am registered for Plumbers but not attending can I still vote?
> A: We will be sending the e-mail to all registered attendees before confirming
> they are present.
> 
> Q: Can I register for Plumbers just to vote?
> A: Plumbers is sold out this year.
> 
> Q: Why bother with electronic voting if the voting pool is still conference
> attendees?
> A: The kernel philosophy is small incremental changes. Based on discussions
> with the TAB, changing the voting method and widening the voting pool
> simultaneously was too much for one year. The goal is to run the electronic
> voting this year with the same voting pool and then discuss how voting will
> work in subsequent years.
> 
> Q: When does voting start?
> A: E-mails with the voting link will be sent out before the start of the
> first Plumbers session on Monday September 9th at 10am UTC+1
> 
> Q: When does voting end?
> A: Voting ends on September 11th at 10am UTC+1
> 
> Q: What's the software used for voting?
> A: We will be using the hosted version of the Condorcet Internet Voting 
> Service
> (CIVS) at https://civs.cs.cornell.edu
> 
> Q: Is this code open source?
> A: Yes. The code is available under a BSD-like research license
> 
> Q: How do I vote?
> A: You will receive an e-mail by Monday September 9th at 10am UTC+1 with
> a link to vote.
> 
> Q: Is this method of voting secure?
> A: Privacy and security is a focus of CIVS. See
> https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/sec_priv.html for more information.
> 
> Q: The website mentions ranked choice voting. What is this?
> A: In ranked choice voting, you rank your preferred choices from most
> to least liked. The theory is this results in a more accurate representation
> of what the voter pool wants. This is a different method than we've used
> for TAB elections in the past where you indicated your preferred $n out
> of $m candidates. Because we are using the hosted version of CIVS, we did
> not have the option to use our old method of voting.
> 
> Q: The description mentions an 'election supervisor'. What is this role?
> A: The election supervisor's role is to start and stop the poll, send
> links to voters, and set various options for the poll. A single e-mail
> address is used to e-mail the link to manage the election, after which
> anyone with the link can manage the poll.
> 
> Q: Who is the election supervisor for the TAB elections?
> A: We have created a mailing list for election management. This mailing
> list contains individuals from the kernel community who are not running
> for the TAB this year, similar to in-person proctors from past years.
> We are still working on getting the mailing list set up, the address will
> be announced when it is ready.
> 
> Q: What if I lose the e-mail before I vote?
> A: Please e-mail the election list, address to be announced
> 
> Q: What if I want to change my vote?
> A: This is not possible, please make sure you've made your final choices
> when you click submit.
> 
> Q: What if I want to practice voting?
> A: CIVS has a number of sample polls available. Feel free to 

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- Call for nominations

[Laura Abbott]

> On Aug 9, 2019, at 2:26 AM, Laura Abbott  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Friendly reminder that the TAB elections are coming soon:
> 
> The Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board (TAB) serves as the
> interface between the kernel development community and the Linux
> Foundation. The TAB advises the Foundation on kernel-related matters,
> helps member companies learn to work with the community, and works to
> resolve community-related problems before they get out of hand.  We
> also support the Code of Conduct committee in their mission.
> 
> The board has ten members, one of whom sits on the Linux Foundation
> board of directors.
> 
> The election to select five TAB members will be held at the 2019 Kernel Summit
> in Lisbon, Portugal September 9-11. As has been announced[2], we are moving to
> an electronic voting system this year. Further details about the exact voting
> procedures will be coming soon. Anyone is eligible to stand for election,
> simply send your nomination to:
> 
> tech-board-discuss at lists.linux-foundation.org
> 
> With your nomination, please include a short candidate statement. This 
> candidate
> statement should focus on why you are running and what you hope to accomplish
> on the TAB. We will be collecting these statements and making them publicly 
> available.
> 
> The deadline for receiving nominations is 9am GMT+1 on September 9th (the 
> first
> day of Kernel Summit). Due to the use of electronic voting, this will be a 
> hard
> deadline!
> 
> Current TAB members, and their election year:
> 
> Jon Corbet2017
> Greg Kroah-Hartman2017
> Steven Rostedt2017
> Ted Tso   2017
> Tim Bird  2017
> 
> Chris Mason   2018
> Laura Abbott  2018
> Olof Johansson2018
> Kees Cook 2018
> Dan Williams  2018
> 
> The five slots from 2017 are all up for election.  As always, please
> let us know if you have questions, and please do consider running.
> 
> Thanks,
> Laura
> 
> [1] TAB members sit for a term of two years, and half of the board is
> up for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> The other five are halfway through their term and will be up for
> election next year.
> 
> [2] 
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2019-July/006582.html

Reminder to send in your candidate statements, the current ones are
available at 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E3_W1c-xJMx9o2PCnKiGt3vqs-mPh77yNO4GSqNipOQ

Thanks,
Laura

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections updates and location

[Chris Mason]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:

On 10/28/16 16:13, Frank Rowand wrote:

Hi Chris,

It's time for the annual question of: where do I find the TAB minutes?

I was sure I had a bookmark of the link, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Thanks,

Frank



and the answer is ???


We're looking at pulling out the public parts of the minutes.  I'll talk 
with everyone about the best way to do it.


-chris

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections updates and location

[Chris Mason]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:

On 10/28/16 16:13, Frank Rowand wrote:

Hi Chris,

It's time for the annual question of: where do I find the TAB minutes?

I was sure I had a bookmark of the link, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Thanks,

Frank



and the answer is ???


We're looking at pulling out the public parts of the minutes.  I'll talk 
with everyone about the best way to do it.


-chris

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections updates and location

[Randy Dunlap]

On 10/28/16 16:13, Frank Rowand wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> It's time for the annual question of: where do I find the TAB minutes?
> 
> I was sure I had a bookmark of the link, but I seem to have misplaced it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Frank


and the answer is ???

thanks.
-- 
~Randy

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections updates and location

[Randy Dunlap]

On 10/28/16 16:13, Frank Rowand wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> It's time for the annual question of: where do I find the TAB minutes?
> 
> I was sure I had a bookmark of the link, but I seem to have misplaced it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Frank


and the answer is ???

thanks.
-- 
~Randy

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections updates and location

[Frank Rowand]

Hi Chris,

It's time for the annual question of: where do I find the TAB minutes?

I was sure I had a bookmark of the link, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Thanks,

Frank


On 10/28/16 12:39, Chris Mason wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> A few updates about the TAB election.  It is scheduled for 5pm on Wednesday 
> November 2nd, in the Coronado/DeVargas room, at the conference center.  We 
> move through the voting pretty quickly, and you'll finish with plenty of time 
> to spare before the evening reception.
> 
> The nominees so far:
> 
> Josh Triplett
> Rik van Riel
> Dave Taht
> Chris Mason
> Dan Williams
> 
> Steve Rostedt is maintaining a list of the nominees and their statements at 
> the URL below.  He promises to stay at the keyboard and keep updating it 
> until 12pm EDT Oct 30th:
> 
> https://goo.gl/xlAoJl
> 
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation Technical 
> Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> election will be at the 2016 Kernel Summit in Santa Fe, NM.
> 
> The elections will take place at the conference center on Wednesday Nov 2nd, 
> shortly before the evening Kernel Summit/Plumbers reception.  The elections 
> will be open to all attendees of both the Kernel Summit and the Linux 
> Plumbers.
> 
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
> 
> tech-board-discuss at lists.linux-foundation.org
> 
> Just before the election, everyone will have a chance to introduce themselves 
> and briefly talk about why they would like to participate on the Technical 
> Advisory Board.   This year, we're encouraging everyone to include those 
> details along with their nomination, which we will compile into an online 
> document for quick reference.
> 
> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
> the event where the election is held.  Any statements for the online document 
> need to be sent by Friday Oct 28th.  Please remember if
> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
> 
> Chris Mason, TAB Chair
> 
> [1] TAB members sit for a term of two years, and half of the board is up
> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> The other five are halfway through their term and will be up for
> election next year.
> 

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections updates and location

[Frank Rowand]

Hi Chris,

It's time for the annual question of: where do I find the TAB minutes?

I was sure I had a bookmark of the link, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Thanks,

Frank


On 10/28/16 12:39, Chris Mason wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> A few updates about the TAB election.  It is scheduled for 5pm on Wednesday 
> November 2nd, in the Coronado/DeVargas room, at the conference center.  We 
> move through the voting pretty quickly, and you'll finish with plenty of time 
> to spare before the evening reception.
> 
> The nominees so far:
> 
> Josh Triplett
> Rik van Riel
> Dave Taht
> Chris Mason
> Dan Williams
> 
> Steve Rostedt is maintaining a list of the nominees and their statements at 
> the URL below.  He promises to stay at the keyboard and keep updating it 
> until 12pm EDT Oct 30th:
> 
> https://goo.gl/xlAoJl
> 
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation Technical 
> Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> election will be at the 2016 Kernel Summit in Santa Fe, NM.
> 
> The elections will take place at the conference center on Wednesday Nov 2nd, 
> shortly before the evening Kernel Summit/Plumbers reception.  The elections 
> will be open to all attendees of both the Kernel Summit and the Linux 
> Plumbers.
> 
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
> 
> tech-board-discuss at lists.linux-foundation.org
> 
> Just before the election, everyone will have a chance to introduce themselves 
> and briefly talk about why they would like to participate on the Technical 
> Advisory Board.   This year, we're encouraging everyone to include those 
> details along with their nomination, which we will compile into an online 
> document for quick reference.
> 
> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
> the event where the election is held.  Any statements for the online document 
> need to be sent by Friday Oct 28th.  Please remember if
> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
> 
> Chris Mason, TAB Chair
> 
> [1] TAB members sit for a term of two years, and half of the board is up
> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> The other five are halfway through their term and will be up for
> election next year.
> 

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> Final reminder and update:
>
> The TAB elections will be held at 6:00pm tomorrow evening, Monday
> October 26th during the evening booth-crawl and reception in the Park
> Studio room. We will start at 6:00 sharp. Don't be late.
>
> Agenda:
> 1) Welcome and brief summary of what the TAB does
> 2) Questions
> 3) Last call for nominations
> 4) Candidate statements. Candidates will each have 1 minute to make a
> brief statement. Candidates who are unable to attend can provide a
> written statement to be read out.
> 5) Review of polling procedure
> 6) Polling
>
> The doors to the room will be closed at the start of polling. You must
> be in the room by that time if you intend to cast a ballot. Polling
> will be conducted by secret paper ballot and a privacy shield will be
> provided. Voters must exit the room after casting their ballot.
>
> Counting shall be performed by 2 or 3 neutral people after polling has
> completed. Results will be provided by email to the mailing lists
> later that same evening.
>
> Currently we have 15 candidates for 5 seats. The current nominations
> are (in alphabetical order):
> Kees Cook
> Jon Corbet
> Thomas Gleixner
> Stephen Hemminger
> Olof Johansson
> Shuah Khan
> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> Kurt H Maier
> Steven Rostedt
> Dave Taht
> Josh Triplett
> Theodore Ts'o
> Sage Weil
> Dan Williams
> Rafael Wysocki

and Andy Lutomirski makes 16.

That's it. Any nominations received after this point will not make it
onto the pre-printed ballot. (Nominations are still open. There are
blank spaces on the ballot for writing in other names)

g.
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

Final reminder and update:

The TAB elections will be held at 6:00pm tomorrow evening, Monday
October 26th during the evening booth-crawl and reception in the Park
Studio room. We will start at 6:00 sharp. Don't be late.

Agenda:
1) Welcome and brief summary of what the TAB does
2) Questions
3) Last call for nominations
4) Candidate statements. Candidates will each have 1 minute to make a
brief statement. Candidates who are unable to attend can provide a
written statement to be read out.
5) Review of polling procedure
6) Polling

The doors to the room will be closed at the start of polling. You must
be in the room by that time if you intend to cast a ballot. Polling
will be conducted by secret paper ballot and a privacy shield will be
provided. Voters must exit the room after casting their ballot.

Counting shall be performed by 2 or 3 neutral people after polling has
completed. Results will be provided by email to the mailing lists
later that same evening.

Currently we have 15 candidates for 5 seats. The current nominations
are (in alphabetical order):
Kees Cook
Jon Corbet
Thomas Gleixner
Stephen Hemminger
Olof Johansson
Shuah Khan
Greg Kroah-Hartman
Kurt H Maier
Steven Rostedt
Dave Taht
Josh Triplett
Theodore Ts'o
Sage Weil
Dan Williams
Rafael Wysocki

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> Reminder and update:
>
> As described below, the TAB elections will be held next week with the
> Linux Kernel Summit and the Korea Linux Forum. The election will be
> held at 6:00pm Monday evening during the on-site evening reception.
> Each candidate will have the opportunity to make a brief statement
> before polling. Candidates who are not able to attend personally may
> provide a written statement to be read out.
>
> We now have 12 nominees for five seats.
> Kees Cook
> Jon Corbet*
> Thomas Gleixner*
> Stephen Hemminger
> Shuah Khan
> Greg Kroah-Hartman*
> Kurt H Maier
> Steven Rostedt
> Dave Taht
> Josh Triplett
> Sage Weil
> Rafael Wysocki
> (*Incumbent)
>
> The deadline for nominations remains the evening of the election.
> However, we will be pre-printing ballots on Sunday evening with the
> nominations received up to that point. There will be blank spaces
> provided on the ballot for writing in late nominations.
>
> g.
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
>> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
>> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
>> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
>> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
>> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
>>
>> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
>>
>> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
>>
>> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
>> Thomas Gleixner
>> Greg Kroah-Hartman
>> Stephen Hemminger
>>
>> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
>> the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
>> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
>> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
>>
>> Grant Likely, TAB Chair
>>
>> [1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
>> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
>> The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
>> election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
>> here:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
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Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> Final reminder and update:
>
> The TAB elections will be held at 6:00pm tomorrow evening, Monday
> October 26th during the evening booth-crawl and reception in the Park
> Studio room. We will start at 6:00 sharp. Don't be late.
>
> Agenda:
> 1) Welcome and brief summary of what the TAB does
> 2) Questions
> 3) Last call for nominations
> 4) Candidate statements. Candidates will each have 1 minute to make a
> brief statement. Candidates who are unable to attend can provide a
> written statement to be read out.
> 5) Review of polling procedure
> 6) Polling
>
> The doors to the room will be closed at the start of polling. You must
> be in the room by that time if you intend to cast a ballot. Polling
> will be conducted by secret paper ballot and a privacy shield will be
> provided. Voters must exit the room after casting their ballot.
>
> Counting shall be performed by 2 or 3 neutral people after polling has
> completed. Results will be provided by email to the mailing lists
> later that same evening.
>
> Currently we have 15 candidates for 5 seats. The current nominations
> are (in alphabetical order):
> Kees Cook
> Jon Corbet
> Thomas Gleixner
> Stephen Hemminger
> Olof Johansson
> Shuah Khan
> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> Kurt H Maier
> Steven Rostedt
> Dave Taht
> Josh Triplett
> Theodore Ts'o
> Sage Weil
> Dan Williams
> Rafael Wysocki

and Andy Lutomirski makes 16.

That's it. Any nominations received after this point will not make it
onto the pre-printed ballot. (Nominations are still open. There are
blank spaces on the ballot for writing in other names)

g.
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

Final reminder and update:

The TAB elections will be held at 6:00pm tomorrow evening, Monday
October 26th during the evening booth-crawl and reception in the Park
Studio room. We will start at 6:00 sharp. Don't be late.

Agenda:
1) Welcome and brief summary of what the TAB does
2) Questions
3) Last call for nominations
4) Candidate statements. Candidates will each have 1 minute to make a
brief statement. Candidates who are unable to attend can provide a
written statement to be read out.
5) Review of polling procedure
6) Polling

The doors to the room will be closed at the start of polling. You must
be in the room by that time if you intend to cast a ballot. Polling
will be conducted by secret paper ballot and a privacy shield will be
provided. Voters must exit the room after casting their ballot.

Counting shall be performed by 2 or 3 neutral people after polling has
completed. Results will be provided by email to the mailing lists
later that same evening.

Currently we have 15 candidates for 5 seats. The current nominations
are (in alphabetical order):
Kees Cook
Jon Corbet
Thomas Gleixner
Stephen Hemminger
Olof Johansson
Shuah Khan
Greg Kroah-Hartman
Kurt H Maier
Steven Rostedt
Dave Taht
Josh Triplett
Theodore Ts'o
Sage Weil
Dan Williams
Rafael Wysocki

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> Reminder and update:
>
> As described below, the TAB elections will be held next week with the
> Linux Kernel Summit and the Korea Linux Forum. The election will be
> held at 6:00pm Monday evening during the on-site evening reception.
> Each candidate will have the opportunity to make a brief statement
> before polling. Candidates who are not able to attend personally may
> provide a written statement to be read out.
>
> We now have 12 nominees for five seats.
> Kees Cook
> Jon Corbet*
> Thomas Gleixner*
> Stephen Hemminger
> Shuah Khan
> Greg Kroah-Hartman*
> Kurt H Maier
> Steven Rostedt
> Dave Taht
> Josh Triplett
> Sage Weil
> Rafael Wysocki
> (*Incumbent)
>
> The deadline for nominations remains the evening of the election.
> However, we will be pre-printing ballots on Sunday evening with the
> nominations received up to that point. There will be blank spaces
> provided on the ballot for writing in late nominations.
>
> g.
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
>> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
>> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
>> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
>> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
>> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
>>
>> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
>>
>> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
>>
>> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
>> Thomas Gleixner
>> Greg Kroah-Hartman
>> Stephen Hemminger
>>
>> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
>> the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
>> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
>> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
>>
>> Grant Likely, TAB Chair
>>
>> [1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
>> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
>> The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
>> election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
>> here:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

Reminder and update:

As described below, the TAB elections will be held next week with the
Linux Kernel Summit and the Korea Linux Forum. The election will be
held at 6:00pm Monday evening during the on-site evening reception.
Each candidate will have the opportunity to make a brief statement
before polling. Candidates who are not able to attend personally may
provide a written statement to be read out.

We now have 12 nominees for five seats.
Kees Cook
Jon Corbet*
Thomas Gleixner*
Stephen Hemminger
Shuah Khan
Greg Kroah-Hartman*
Kurt H Maier
Steven Rostedt
Dave Taht
Josh Triplett
Sage Weil
Rafael Wysocki
(*Incumbent)

The deadline for nominations remains the evening of the election.
However, we will be pre-printing ballots on Sunday evening with the
nominations received up to that point. There will be blank spaces
provided on the ballot for writing in late nominations.

g.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
>
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
>
> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
>
> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
> Thomas Gleixner
> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> Stephen Hemminger
>
> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
> the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
>
> Grant Likely, TAB Chair
>
> [1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
> election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
> here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
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Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

Reminder and update:

As described below, the TAB elections will be held next week with the
Linux Kernel Summit and the Korea Linux Forum. The election will be
held at 6:00pm Monday evening during the on-site evening reception.
Each candidate will have the opportunity to make a brief statement
before polling. Candidates who are not able to attend personally may
provide a written statement to be read out.

We now have 12 nominees for five seats.
Kees Cook
Jon Corbet*
Thomas Gleixner*
Stephen Hemminger
Shuah Khan
Greg Kroah-Hartman*
Kurt H Maier
Steven Rostedt
Dave Taht
Josh Triplett
Sage Weil
Rafael Wysocki
(*Incumbent)

The deadline for nominations remains the evening of the election.
However, we will be pre-printing ballots on Sunday evening with the
nominations received up to that point. There will be blank spaces
provided on the ballot for writing in late nominations.

g.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
>
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
>
> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
>
> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
> Thomas Gleixner
> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> Stephen Hemminger
>
> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
> the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
>
> Grant Likely, TAB Chair
>
> [1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
> election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
> here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Sage Weil  wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Oct 2015, Grant Likely wrote:
>> On 11 Oct 2015 05:20, "Ric Wheeler"  wrote:
>> >
>> > I would like to nominate Sage Weil with his consent.
>> >
>> > Sage has lead the ceph project since its inception, contributed to the
>> kernel as well as had an influence on projects like openstack.
>>
>> Sage, what say you? Do you accept your nomination?
>
> I do!

Thanks Sage. You're on the list.

g.
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Grant Likely]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Sage Weil  wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Oct 2015, Grant Likely wrote:
>> On 11 Oct 2015 05:20, "Ric Wheeler"  wrote:
>> >
>> > I would like to nominate Sage Weil with his consent.
>> >
>> > Sage has lead the ceph project since its inception, contributed to the
>> kernel as well as had an influence on projects like openstack.
>>
>> Sage, what say you? Do you accept your nomination?
>
> I do!

Thanks Sage. You're on the list.

g.
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Sage Weil]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015, Grant Likely wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2015 05:20, "Ric Wheeler"  wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate Sage Weil with his consent.
> >
> > Sage has lead the ceph project since its inception, contributed to the
> kernel as well as had an influence on projects like openstack.
> 
> Sage, what say you? Do you accept your nomination?

I do!

Thanks-
sage

> 
> g.
> 
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > Ric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/06/2015 01:06 PM, Grant Likely wrote:
> >>
> >> [Resending because I messed up the first one]
> >>
> >> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> >> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> >> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
> >> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
> >> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
> >>
> >> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
> >>
> >> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
> >>
> >> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
> >> Thomas Gleixner
> >> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> >> Stephen Hemminger
> >>
> >> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
> >> the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
> >> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
> >> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
> >>
> >> Grant Likely, TAB Chair
> >>
> >> [1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
> >> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> >> The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
> >> election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
> >> here:
> >>
> >>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_
> YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel"
> in
> >> the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
> >> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> >> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Sage Weil]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015, Grant Likely wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2015 05:20, "Ric Wheeler"  wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate Sage Weil with his consent.
> >
> > Sage has lead the ceph project since its inception, contributed to the
> kernel as well as had an influence on projects like openstack.
> 
> Sage, what say you? Do you accept your nomination?

I do!

Thanks-
sage

> 
> g.
> 
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > Ric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/06/2015 01:06 PM, Grant Likely wrote:
> >>
> >> [Resending because I messed up the first one]
> >>
> >> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> >> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> >> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
> >> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
> >> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
> >>
> >> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
> >>
> >> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
> >>
> >> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
> >> Thomas Gleixner
> >> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> >> Stephen Hemminger
> >>
> >> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
> >> the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
> >> you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
> >> and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).
> >>
> >> Grant Likely, TAB Chair
> >>
> >> [1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
> >> for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
> >> The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
> >> election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
> >> here:
> >>
> >>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_
> YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel"
> in
> >> the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
> >> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> >> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 

Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Kees Cook]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:06 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> [Resending because I messed up the first one]
>
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
>
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
>
> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
>
> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
> Thomas Gleixner
> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> Stephen Hemminger

I'd like to nominate myself to stand for a place on the TAB. I'll be
physically at Kernel Summit.

Thanks!

-Kees

-- 
Kees Cook
Chrome OS Security
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Kees Cook]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:06 AM, Grant Likely  wrote:
> [Resending because I messed up the first one]
>
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
> election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
> (probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
> of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.
>
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:
>
> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
>
> We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
> Thomas Gleixner
> Greg Kroah-Hartman
> Stephen Hemminger

I'd like to nominate myself to stand for a place on the TAB. I'll be
physically at Kernel Summit.

Thanks!

-Kees

-- 
Kees Cook
Chrome OS Security
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Ric Wheeler]

I would like to nominate Sage Weil with his consent.

Sage has lead the ceph project since its inception, contributed to the kernel as 
well as had an influence on projects like openstack.


thanks!

Ric



On 10/06/2015 01:06 PM, Grant Likely wrote:

[Resending because I messed up the first one]

The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
(probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.

Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:

tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org

We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
Thomas Gleixner
Greg Kroah-Hartman
Stephen Hemminger

The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).

Grant Likely, TAB Chair

[1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Ric Wheeler]

I would like to nominate Sage Weil with his consent.

Sage has lead the ceph project since its inception, contributed to the kernel as 
well as had an influence on projects like openstack.


thanks!

Ric



On 10/06/2015 01:06 PM, Grant Likely wrote:

[Resending because I messed up the first one]

The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
Technical Advisory Board (TAB) are held every year[1]. This year the
election will be at the 2015 Kernel Summit in Seoul, South Korea
(probably on the Monday, 26 October) and will be open to all attendees
of both Kernel Summit and Korea Linux Forum.

Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination to:

tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org

We currently have 3 nominees for five places:
Thomas Gleixner
Greg Kroah-Hartman
Stephen Hemminger

The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of
the event where the election is held. Although, please remember if
you're not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks
and mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).

Grant Likely, TAB Chair

[1] TAB members sit for a term of 2 years, and half of the board is up
for election every year. Five of the seats are up for election now.
The other five are half way through their term and will be up for
election next year. The history of the TAB elections can be found
here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jGLQtul0taSRq_opYzJFALI7_34cS4RMS1_YQoTNCKA/edit#gid=0
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Randy Dunlap]

On 08/18/14 13:13, James Bottomley wrote:
> 
> We still have only 3 nominations for 5 places, So we'll do a last call
> for nominations at 20:00 and if there are five or fewer, there won't be
> an election and the TAB will use its charter process to appoint people
> to fill any shortfall.

Please add my name to the nominations list also.

Thanks.

-- 
~Randy
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[Randy Dunlap]

On 08/18/14 13:13, James Bottomley wrote:
 
 We still have only 3 nominations for 5 places, So we'll do a last call
 for nominations at 20:00 and if there are five or fewer, there won't be
 an election and the TAB will use its charter process to appoint people
 to fill any shortfall.

Please add my name to the nominations list also.

Thanks.

-- 
~Randy
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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[James Bottomley]

On Tue, 2014-07-15 at 14:48 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
> Technical Advisory Board[TAB] are held every year. Currently the
> election will be at the 2014 Kernel Summit in Chicago, USA, at one of
> the Joint events (probably on the Wednesday 20 August) and will be open
> to all attendees of the Weeks events (Kernel Summit, LinuxCon and other
> summits).
> 
> Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination
> to:
> 
> tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
> 
> We currently have three nominees for five places:
> 
> Chris Mason 

Thanks to everyone for the corrections: Chris does work at Facebook now,
so his address is c...@fb.com (I should have checked before cutting and
pasting from two years ago).

> James Bottomley 
> John W. Linville 
> 
> The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of the
> event where the election is held (Currently thought to be the evening of
> August 20th Central Daylight Time). Although, please remember if you're
> not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks and
> mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).

The Time and Place for the election will be 20:00 at the Museum of
Science and Industry on Wednesday 20 August (The joint KS/LinuxCon
event).

We still have only 3 nominations for 5 places, So we'll do a last call
for nominations at 20:00 and if there are five or fewer, there won't be
an election and the TAB will use its charter process to appoint people
to fill any shortfall.

James Bottomley (TAB Chair)



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Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process

[James Bottomley]

On Tue, 2014-07-15 at 14:48 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
 The elections for five of the ten members of the Linux Foundation
 Technical Advisory Board[TAB] are held every year. Currently the
 election will be at the 2014 Kernel Summit in Chicago, USA, at one of
 the Joint events (probably on the Wednesday 20 August) and will be open
 to all attendees of the Weeks events (Kernel Summit, LinuxCon and other
 summits).
 
 Anyone is eligible to stand for election, simply send your nomination
 to:
 
 tech-board-disc...@lists.linux-foundation.org
 
 We currently have three nominees for five places:
 
 Chris Mason chris.ma...@fusionio.com

Thanks to everyone for the corrections: Chris does work at Facebook now,
so his address is c...@fb.com (I should have checked before cutting and
pasting from two years ago).

 James Bottomley james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com
 John W. Linville linvi...@tuxdriver.com
 
 The deadline for receiving nominations is up until the beginning of the
 event where the election is held (Currently thought to be the evening of
 August 20th Central Daylight Time). Although, please remember if you're
 not going to be present that things go wrong with both networks and
 mailing lists, so get your nomination in early).

The Time and Place for the election will be 20:00 at the Museum of
Science and Industry on Wednesday 20 August (The joint KS/LinuxCon
event).

We still have only 3 nominations for 5 places, So we'll do a last call
for nominations at 20:00 and if there are five or fewer, there won't be
an election and the TAB will use its charter process to appoint people
to fill any shortfall.

James Bottomley (TAB Chair)



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TAB election results [was Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process]

[James Bottomley]

Elected to the TAB for a two year term at the National Museum of
Scotland event were:

Greg KH 
Thomas Gleixner 
Jonathan Corbet 
Sarah Sharp 
Matthew Garrett 

James


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TAB election results [was Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections and Nomination process]

[James Bottomley]

Elected to the TAB for a two year term at the National Museum of
Scotland event were:

Greg KH g...@kroah.com
Thomas Gleixner t...@linutronix.de
Jonathan Corbet cor...@lwn.net
Sarah Sharp sarah.a.sh...@linux.intel.com
Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org

James


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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Andrew Morton]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:55:16 -0600 Matthew Wilcox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On a serious note, James, I think you mis-spoke when you said that
> Andrew Morton's term was up this year.

In that case I hereby quit ;)  My contribution to the TAB has been practically
zero and I don't expect that to change.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Bdale Garbee]

On Sat, 2007-08-25 at 01:03 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
> > the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
> > point in time.
> 
> Given the complaint was about the question of correct selection of voters
> replacing the somewhat flawed kernel summit attendee test with a
> completely bogus SPI membership one seems silly.

I'll note in passing that SPI and/or individual members of the SPI board
have been willing to run voting machinery for other organizations at
various times in the past, without requiring that the process involve
having the electorate become SPI contributing members.  If the TAB would
like SPI to consider running a vote, we can certainly explore
alternatives.

The notion of explicitly inviting KS attendees and other kernel
contributors to join SPI as contributing members is an interesting one I
hadn't thought of.  I at least would welcome the additional breadth of
perspective such new members might bring to SPI.  SPI has become "much
more than Debian" in the last couple years, but I suspect we're still
light on kernel contributors as contributing members.

http://www.spi-inc.org/about-spi/membership

Bdale


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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 01:38:04PM +1000, Nick Piggin wrote:
> Hasn't the KS committee / TAB board vote rigging conspiracy theory been
> raised yet?

It's too easy.  All you have to do is note the significant overlap
between the KS program committee and the TAB.

Program Committee

  Jens Axboe, Oracle
* James Bottomley, SteelEye
  Jonathon Corbet, LWN.net
  Steve Hemminger, OSDL/The Linux Foundation
  Dirk Hohndel, Intel
  Gerrit Huizenga, IBM
  Dave Jones, Red Hat
  Andi Kleen, Novell
* Greg Kroah-Hartman, Novell/SuSE Labs
* Matthew Mackall, Selenic Consulting
* Andrew Morton, Google
* Theodore Ts'o, IBM

TAB members:

* James Bottomley
  Wim Coekaerts
  Randy Dunlap
* Greg Kroah-Hartman
  Christoph Lameter
* Matt Mackall
* Andrew Morton
* Theodore Ts'o
  Arjan van de Ven
  Chris Wright

There you have it.  Half of the board sit on the committee who decides
who their electorate are!

On a serious note, James, I think you mis-spoke when you said that
Andrew Morton's term was up this year.,  My understanding is that people
are elected for two years, and he was elected last year, so my list of
people whose terms are up is:

Wim Coekaerts
Greg Kroah-Hartman
Christoph Lameter
Arjan van de Ven

According to the August minutes, Randy was elected back to the TAB then,
so there's actually only four slots up for re-election this year.

-- 
Intel are signing my paycheques ... these opinions are still mine
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Christoph Lameter wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007, Jes Sorensen wrote:


Right now it looks like we have a list of sane candidates up, which I
certainly would be willing to vote for. However, it would be a shame
that the credibility of the election is lost because of sticking to an
undemocratic voting procedure. A procedure which it in fact was stated
when the board was created last year, would be replaced this year.


Democracy is an ideal that is not attainable. A representative democracy 
is usually the best you can get. So you need people that have some 
competence to contribute to the endeavor. And AFAICT we approximate that 
reasonably. Many of the people that were not subject to the git commit 
quota are experienced hands that are valuable because of their experience 
with Linux and the Summit.


Of course, total democracy is impractical and not attainable. However,
in this particular situation we have something that is far from perfect,
but which is also easy to improve significantly if there is willingness
to do so.

KS has been using the 'we can only fit in 50 people into our exclusive
club because we have to include all of our program committee and the
sold off seats so we can go collect money for a ridiculously huge
budget for usenix' argument for years.

I don't see why the TAB vote should lose it's credibility in order to
satisfy a demand from a few people to enjoy their feel of exclusivity,
in particular when it's so easy to fix.

Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Christoph Lameter wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007, Jes Sorensen wrote:


Right now it looks like we have a list of sane candidates up, which I
certainly would be willing to vote for. However, it would be a shame
that the credibility of the election is lost because of sticking to an
undemocratic voting procedure. A procedure which it in fact was stated
when the board was created last year, would be replaced this year.


Democracy is an ideal that is not attainable. A representative democracy 
is usually the best you can get. So you need people that have some 
competence to contribute to the endeavor. And AFAICT we approximate that 
reasonably. Many of the people that were not subject to the git commit 
quota are experienced hands that are valuable because of their experience 
with Linux and the Summit.


Of course, total democracy is impractical and not attainable. However,
in this particular situation we have something that is far from perfect,
but which is also easy to improve significantly if there is willingness
to do so.

KS has been using the 'we can only fit in 50 people into our exclusive
club because we have to include all of our program committee and the
sold off seats so we can go collect money for a ridiculously huge
budget for usenix' argument for years.

I don't see why the TAB vote should lose it's credibility in order to
satisfy a demand from a few people to enjoy their feel of exclusivity,
in particular when it's so easy to fix.

Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 01:38:04PM +1000, Nick Piggin wrote:
 Hasn't the KS committee / TAB board vote rigging conspiracy theory been
 raised yet?

It's too easy.  All you have to do is note the significant overlap
between the KS program committee and the TAB.

Program Committee

  Jens Axboe, Oracle
* James Bottomley, SteelEye
  Jonathon Corbet, LWN.net
  Steve Hemminger, OSDL/The Linux Foundation
  Dirk Hohndel, Intel
  Gerrit Huizenga, IBM
  Dave Jones, Red Hat
  Andi Kleen, Novell
* Greg Kroah-Hartman, Novell/SuSE Labs
* Matthew Mackall, Selenic Consulting
* Andrew Morton, Google
* Theodore Ts'o, IBM

TAB members:

* James Bottomley
  Wim Coekaerts
  Randy Dunlap
* Greg Kroah-Hartman
  Christoph Lameter
* Matt Mackall
* Andrew Morton
* Theodore Ts'o
  Arjan van de Ven
  Chris Wright

There you have it.  Half of the board sit on the committee who decides
who their electorate are!

On a serious note, James, I think you mis-spoke when you said that
Andrew Morton's term was up this year.,  My understanding is that people
are elected for two years, and he was elected last year, so my list of
people whose terms are up is:

Wim Coekaerts
Greg Kroah-Hartman
Christoph Lameter
Arjan van de Ven

According to the August minutes, Randy was elected back to the TAB then,
so there's actually only four slots up for re-election this year.

-- 
Intel are signing my paycheques ... these opinions are still mine
Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Bdale Garbee]

On Sat, 2007-08-25 at 01:03 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
  although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
  the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
  point in time.
 
 Given the complaint was about the question of correct selection of voters
 replacing the somewhat flawed kernel summit attendee test with a
 completely bogus SPI membership one seems silly.

I'll note in passing that SPI and/or individual members of the SPI board
have been willing to run voting machinery for other organizations at
various times in the past, without requiring that the process involve
having the electorate become SPI contributing members.  If the TAB would
like SPI to consider running a vote, we can certainly explore
alternatives.

The notion of explicitly inviting KS attendees and other kernel
contributors to join SPI as contributing members is an interesting one I
hadn't thought of.  I at least would welcome the additional breadth of
perspective such new members might bring to SPI.  SPI has become much
more than Debian in the last couple years, but I suspect we're still
light on kernel contributors as contributing members.

http://www.spi-inc.org/about-spi/membership

Bdale


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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Andrew Morton]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:55:16 -0600 Matthew Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On a serious note, James, I think you mis-spoke when you said that
 Andrew Morton's term was up this year.

In that case I hereby quit ;)  My contribution to the TAB has been practically
zero and I don't expect that to change.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Nick Piggin]

Daniel Phillips wrote:

On Friday 24 August 2007 03:45, Theodore Tso wrote:


As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not
like it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in
SPI.  And somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.


Given the huge overlap between SPI membership and Debian membership,
and then taking a look at the craziness that takes place on various
Debian mailing lists, such as but not limited to debian-legal, I'm
quite convinced that this would be a baad idea.



Hi Ted,

Ever watched a legislative assembly at work?  A bad idea perhaps, but 
the best that has been discovered so far.


Given that there is already some charter that says KS attendees vote...
isn't it best to retain that? Directives from above aside, you need
specifications on how to change voting procedure before changing it, no?
If those don't exist, then something vaguely similar in my country would
require a referendum I think.

Hasn't the KS committee / TAB board vote rigging conspiracy theory been
raised yet? Given they're not running a country, it would be great fun
to see the board getting corrupted and go off the rails ;) I'd vote for
them because if Ted has anything to do with it, I *know* we'll be having
KS in Hawaii ;)

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 03:59:09PM -0700, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> Ever watched a legislative assembly at work?  A bad idea perhaps, but 
> the best that has been discovered so far.

Sure, but a Debian mailing list where fanatics who have no job, no
life, but huge amounts of free time to post literally hundreds of
messages a day indulging in Debian's "last post wins" style of
argumentation have far more power to influence the decision making
process than those who have to work at a real job has very little in
common with a legislative assembly.

That's why any kind of election for the TAB should happen, IMHO, in
"real space", at some conference where there is a gross filter of
people being able to afford travel expenses or be paid by some company
for their expenses (thus showing that someone felt that they were
doing enough good work that they should be given the resources to pay
for travel expenses and the conference registration fees).

If that's an elitist attitude; I plead guilty --- Linux and OSS is
*not* a democracy.  Linus doesn't obey the whims of majority voting to
decide which patches to accept or reject.  The Linux kernel community
is very much a meritocracy, which is why I don't believe that some
kind of pure democracy such as using the SPI voting membership is the
right thing for electing the TAB.  Just remember, in the United
States, a democracy where around 50% of Americans believe that Saddam
Hussein was personally responsible for 9/11 elected George W. Bush to
the US presidency.  It's statistics like that which make you want to
impose some kind of comptency test on who is allowed to vote.

The kernel summit is one such place where we can hold such a vote, and
if people thought that a BOF at some conference like Linux.conf.au or
OLS would be a better place, those might be other alternatives.  I'll
note that most of this discussion is mostly moot, though, given that
at this point we have 5 candidates for 5 slots, for positions which is
really more about service than about any kind of power or benefits.

 - Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 07:18:36PM -0700, Daniel Walker wrote:
> Just out of curiosity , have you had anyone nominate a really really
> large group ? Like say, anyone that has every send an email to lkml ? 

Nope; I suspect someone who did that would just be ignored by the
program committee.  We might publically mock someone who did that,
just to discourage that kind of behavior, but it's wouldn't be a
particularly effective denial of service attack, precisely because the
program committee has discretion about how to handle that sort of
thing.  

There have been people nominating 5-10 people in previous years, and
in general the set of people that were nominated overlapped with
suggestions made by others --- and that's the process working as it's
supposed to.  But that's not a "really, really large group".

- Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Daniel Walker]

On Tue, 2007-08-28 at 22:18 -0400, Theodore Tso wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 02:12:56PM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
> > Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
> > their own git commit requirement last time I checked. 
> 
> Note that the git commit metric is not a "requirement", but a way of
> seeding the list of people to be considered.  The current selection
> process is that we *start* with that list, and then accept nominations
> from anyone for anyone (including self-nominations) that should be
> considered that weren't automatically included by the git selection
> criteria.

Just out of curiosity , have you had anyone nominate a really really
large group ? Like say, anyone that has every send an email to lkml ? 

Daniel

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 02:12:56PM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
> Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
> their own git commit requirement last time I checked. 

Note that the git commit metric is not a "requirement", but a way of
seeding the list of people to be considered.  The current selection
process is that we *start* with that list, and then accept nominations
from anyone for anyone (including self-nominations) that should be
considered that weren't automatically included by the git selection
criteria.

- Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Daniel Phillips]

On Friday 24 August 2007 03:45, Theodore Tso wrote:
> > As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not
> > like it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in
> > SPI.  And somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
>
> Given the huge overlap between SPI membership and Debian membership,
> and then taking a look at the craziness that takes place on various
> Debian mailing lists, such as but not limited to debian-legal, I'm
> quite convinced that this would be a baad idea.

Hi Ted,

Ever watched a legislative assembly at work?  A bad idea perhaps, but 
the best that has been discovered so far.

Regards,

Daniel
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Christoph Lameter]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007, Jes Sorensen wrote:

> Right now it looks like we have a list of sane candidates up, which I
> certainly would be willing to vote for. However, it would be a shame
> that the credibility of the election is lost because of sticking to an
> undemocratic voting procedure. A procedure which it in fact was stated
> when the board was created last year, would be replaced this year.

Democracy is an ideal that is not attainable. A representative democracy 
is usually the best you can get. So you need people that have some 
competence to contribute to the endeavor. And AFAICT we approximate that 
reasonably. Many of the people that were not subject to the git commit 
quota are experienced hands that are valuable because of their experience 
with Linux and the Summit.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Christoph Lameter]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007, Jes Sorensen wrote:

 Right now it looks like we have a list of sane candidates up, which I
 certainly would be willing to vote for. However, it would be a shame
 that the credibility of the election is lost because of sticking to an
 undemocratic voting procedure. A procedure which it in fact was stated
 when the board was created last year, would be replaced this year.

Democracy is an ideal that is not attainable. A representative democracy 
is usually the best you can get. So you need people that have some 
competence to contribute to the endeavor. And AFAICT we approximate that 
reasonably. Many of the people that were not subject to the git commit 
quota are experienced hands that are valuable because of their experience 
with Linux and the Summit.
-
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Daniel Phillips]

On Friday 24 August 2007 03:45, Theodore Tso wrote:
  As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not
  like it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in
  SPI.  And somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

 Given the huge overlap between SPI membership and Debian membership,
 and then taking a look at the craziness that takes place on various
 Debian mailing lists, such as but not limited to debian-legal, I'm
 quite convinced that this would be a baad idea.

Hi Ted,

Ever watched a legislative assembly at work?  A bad idea perhaps, but 
the best that has been discovered so far.

Regards,

Daniel
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 02:12:56PM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
 Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
 their own git commit requirement last time I checked. 

Note that the git commit metric is not a requirement, but a way of
seeding the list of people to be considered.  The current selection
process is that we *start* with that list, and then accept nominations
from anyone for anyone (including self-nominations) that should be
considered that weren't automatically included by the git selection
criteria.

- Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Daniel Walker]

On Tue, 2007-08-28 at 22:18 -0400, Theodore Tso wrote:
 On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 02:12:56PM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
  Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
  their own git commit requirement last time I checked. 
 
 Note that the git commit metric is not a requirement, but a way of
 seeding the list of people to be considered.  The current selection
 process is that we *start* with that list, and then accept nominations
 from anyone for anyone (including self-nominations) that should be
 considered that weren't automatically included by the git selection
 criteria.

Just out of curiosity , have you had anyone nominate a really really
large group ? Like say, anyone that has every send an email to lkml ? 

Daniel

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 07:18:36PM -0700, Daniel Walker wrote:
 Just out of curiosity , have you had anyone nominate a really really
 large group ? Like say, anyone that has every send an email to lkml ? 

Nope; I suspect someone who did that would just be ignored by the
program committee.  We might publically mock someone who did that,
just to discourage that kind of behavior, but it's wouldn't be a
particularly effective denial of service attack, precisely because the
program committee has discretion about how to handle that sort of
thing.  

There have been people nominating 5-10 people in previous years, and
in general the set of people that were nominated overlapped with
suggestions made by others --- and that's the process working as it's
supposed to.  But that's not a really, really large group.

- Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 03:59:09PM -0700, Daniel Phillips wrote:
 Ever watched a legislative assembly at work?  A bad idea perhaps, but 
 the best that has been discovered so far.

Sure, but a Debian mailing list where fanatics who have no job, no
life, but huge amounts of free time to post literally hundreds of
messages a day indulging in Debian's last post wins style of
argumentation have far more power to influence the decision making
process than those who have to work at a real job has very little in
common with a legislative assembly.

That's why any kind of election for the TAB should happen, IMHO, in
real space, at some conference where there is a gross filter of
people being able to afford travel expenses or be paid by some company
for their expenses (thus showing that someone felt that they were
doing enough good work that they should be given the resources to pay
for travel expenses and the conference registration fees).

If that's an elitist attitude; I plead guilty --- Linux and OSS is
*not* a democracy.  Linus doesn't obey the whims of majority voting to
decide which patches to accept or reject.  The Linux kernel community
is very much a meritocracy, which is why I don't believe that some
kind of pure democracy such as using the SPI voting membership is the
right thing for electing the TAB.  Just remember, in the United
States, a democracy where around 50% of Americans believe that Saddam
Hussein was personally responsible for 9/11 elected George W. Bush to
the US presidency.  It's statistics like that which make you want to
impose some kind of comptency test on who is allowed to vote.

The kernel summit is one such place where we can hold such a vote, and
if people thought that a BOF at some conference like Linux.conf.au or
OLS would be a better place, those might be other alternatives.  I'll
note that most of this discussion is mostly moot, though, given that
at this point we have 5 candidates for 5 slots, for positions which is
really more about service than about any kind of power or benefits.

 - Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Nick Piggin]

Daniel Phillips wrote:

On Friday 24 August 2007 03:45, Theodore Tso wrote:


As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not
like it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in
SPI.  And somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.


Given the huge overlap between SPI membership and Debian membership,
and then taking a look at the craziness that takes place on various
Debian mailing lists, such as but not limited to debian-legal, I'm
quite convinced that this would be a baad idea.



Hi Ted,

Ever watched a legislative assembly at work?  A bad idea perhaps, but 
the best that has been discovered so far.


Given that there is already some charter that says KS attendees vote...
isn't it best to retain that? Directives from above aside, you need
specifications on how to change voting procedure before changing it, no?
If those don't exist, then something vaguely similar in my country would
require a referendum I think.

Hasn't the KS committee / TAB board vote rigging conspiracy theory been
raised yet? Given they're not running a country, it would be great fun
to see the board getting corrupted and go off the rails ;) I'd vote for
them because if Ted has anything to do with it, I *know* we'll be having
KS in Hawaii ;)

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Randy Dunlap]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:12:56 +0200 Jes Sorensen wrote:

> Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:01:55 +0200
> > 
> >> But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual
> >> contributors, from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem
> >> silly.

I agree.

> > to some degree the KS list is based on that git logs thing ;)
   
Good thing you put a ;) there, Arjan.

> Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
> their own git commit requirement last time I checked. Not to mention the
> 10 seats sold to sponsors (presuming it goes like in previous years,
> with each sponsor being awarded one grease slot per sponsorship).

Yes, I'm not fond of the PC automatic invites either.
(that's Program Committee, not politically correct or other PC
acronyms)

> Based on the published list of invitees (which didn't seem to include
> the seats sold off) that means 25% of the people who can vote for the
> TAB were not given a vote based on their contributions.
> 
> Of course this matches the voting system in some countries, but just
> because a lot of places rely on broken systems, that shouldn't encourage
> the TAB to do the same.


---
~Randy
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:01:55 +0200


But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual
contributors, from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem
silly.


to some degree the KS list is based on that git logs thing ;)


Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
their own git commit requirement last time I checked. Not to mention the
10 seats sold to sponsors (presuming it goes like in previous years,
with each sponsor being awarded one grease slot per sponsorship).

Based on the published list of invitees (which didn't seem to include
the seats sold off) that means 25% of the people who can vote for the
TAB were not given a vote based on their contributions.

Of course this matches the voting system in some countries, but just
because a lot of places rely on broken systems, that shouldn't encourage
the TAB to do the same.

Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:01:55 +0200

> But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual
> contributors, from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem
> silly.

to some degree the KS list is based on that git logs thing ;)
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Alan Cox wrote:

although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
point in time.


Given the complaint was about the question of correct selection of voters
replacing the somewhat flawed kernel summit attendee test with a
completely bogus SPI membership one seems silly.


But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual contributors,
from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem silly.

Right now it looks like we have a list of sane candidates up, which I
certainly would be willing to vote for. However, it would be a shame
that the credibility of the election is lost because of sticking to an
undemocratic voting procedure. A procedure which it in fact was stated
when the board was created last year, would be replaced this year.

So, yes, I support Willy's motion of having it moved away from KS. I am
less excited about SPI, but even that would be better than KS.

Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Alan Cox wrote:

although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
point in time.


Given the complaint was about the question of correct selection of voters
replacing the somewhat flawed kernel summit attendee test with a
completely bogus SPI membership one seems silly.


But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual contributors,
from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem silly.

Right now it looks like we have a list of sane candidates up, which I
certainly would be willing to vote for. However, it would be a shame
that the credibility of the election is lost because of sticking to an
undemocratic voting procedure. A procedure which it in fact was stated
when the board was created last year, would be replaced this year.

So, yes, I support Willy's motion of having it moved away from KS. I am
less excited about SPI, but even that would be better than KS.

Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:01:55 +0200

 But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual
 contributors, from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem
 silly.

to some degree the KS list is based on that git logs thing ;)
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Arjan van de Ven wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:01:55 +0200


But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual
contributors, from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem
silly.


to some degree the KS list is based on that git logs thing ;)


Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
their own git commit requirement last time I checked. Not to mention the
10 seats sold to sponsors (presuming it goes like in previous years,
with each sponsor being awarded one grease slot per sponsorship).

Based on the published list of invitees (which didn't seem to include
the seats sold off) that means 25% of the people who can vote for the
TAB were not given a vote based on their contributions.

Of course this matches the voting system in some countries, but just
because a lot of places rely on broken systems, that shouldn't encourage
the TAB to do the same.

Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Randy Dunlap]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:12:56 +0200 Jes Sorensen wrote:

 Arjan van de Ven wrote:
  On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:01:55 +0200
  
  But replacing the flawed KS list with one based on actual
  contributors, from the git logs as I proposed last week, doesn't seem
  silly.

I agree.

  to some degree the KS list is based on that git logs thing ;)
   
Good thing you put a ;) there, Arjan.

 Yes, as well as 12 committee members, of which 5 didn't even comply with
 their own git commit requirement last time I checked. Not to mention the
 10 seats sold to sponsors (presuming it goes like in previous years,
 with each sponsor being awarded one grease slot per sponsorship).

Yes, I'm not fond of the PC automatic invites either.
(that's Program Committee, not politically correct or other PC
acronyms)

 Based on the published list of invitees (which didn't seem to include
 the seats sold off) that means 25% of the people who can vote for the
 TAB were not given a vote based on their contributions.
 
 Of course this matches the voting system in some countries, but just
 because a lot of places rely on broken systems, that shouldn't encourage
 the TAB to do the same.


---
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Alan Cox]

> although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
> the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
> point in time.

Given the complaint was about the question of correct selection of voters
replacing the somewhat flawed kernel summit attendee test with a
completely bogus SPI membership one seems silly.

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Greg KH]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 08:57:35AM -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 10:22:28PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > > The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
> > > 
> > > As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
> > > it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
> > > somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
> > 
> > Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
> > instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
> > provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
> > provide us with their member list.
> 
> I currently object to becoming an SPI member due to a number of personal
> reasons at this point in time.

In private conversations, my previous objections were found to be
baseless and incorrect on my part, so I now withdraw my objection to
SPI.  I really have no feeling about them one way or the other now,
although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
point in time.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 12:10:40PM -0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> To be brutally frank, I couldn't give a toss about choosing the perfect
> representational system for the TAB election.  In true Open Source
> fashion, all I really care about is that we have a mechanism whereby
> committed people can get their contributions accepted, plus we have a
> check to keep the TAB straight and make it report to its constituency.
> Also, being a kernel developer, I'm not unhappy with the kernel
> community bias.  Various members of the kernel community worked very
> hard a few years ago to get OSDL to accept a list of demands and form
> the TAB, so the kernel community currently has the motivation necessary
> to keep it going.
> 
> So, currently, the KS election system, while not perfect, serves its
> purpose adequately.  The section of the TAB charter that deals with
> member elections is easy to modify.  However, I really don't see us
> changing it until either someone comes up with a better system that's
> almost as simple to operate or we actually have motivated interest in
> joining the TAB from outside the Kernel community that necessitates
> moving away from KS as the electorate.

As I'm not invited to KS this year, I am disenfranchised from the
process.  I object to this.

-- 
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[James Bottomley]

On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 08:57 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 10:22:28PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > > The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
> > > 
> > > As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
> > > it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
> > > somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
> > 
> > Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
> > instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
> > provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
> > provide us with their member list.
> 
> I currently object to becoming an SPI member due to a number of personal
> reasons at this point in time.

There's another alternative: and that's that we could use the voting
mechanism of the LF itself.  When the LF was formed, it inherited the
individual affiliate members from the FSG (These members actually elect
two of the board seats to the LF).  We could simply use that pool as the
electorate for the TAB ... of course, coming from the FSG it will be
more user space centric.

To be brutally frank, I couldn't give a toss about choosing the perfect
representational system for the TAB election.  In true Open Source
fashion, all I really care about is that we have a mechanism whereby
committed people can get their contributions accepted, plus we have a
check to keep the TAB straight and make it report to its constituency.
Also, being a kernel developer, I'm not unhappy with the kernel
community bias.  Various members of the kernel community worked very
hard a few years ago to get OSDL to accept a list of demands and form
the TAB, so the kernel community currently has the motivation necessary
to keep it going.

So, currently, the KS election system, while not perfect, serves its
purpose adequately.  The section of the TAB charter that deals with
member elections is easy to modify.  However, I really don't see us
changing it until either someone comes up with a better system that's
almost as simple to operate or we actually have motivated interest in
joining the TAB from outside the Kernel community that necessitates
moving away from KS as the electorate.

James


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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 10:22:28PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
> > 
> > As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
> > it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
> > somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
> 
> Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
> instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
> provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
> provide us with their member list.

I currently object to becoming an SPI member due to a number of personal
reasons at this point in time.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Alan Cox]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:42:24 -0600
Matthew Wilcox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 11:41:07AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > And very gameable of course. James proposal at least has the advantage of
> > simplicity, of drawing from a rough set of relevant people (far from
> > perfectly) and a certain amount of random changeover according to the KS
> > of the year
> > 
> > I would make only one change personally - extend an email vote to the
> > people on the final invite list who can't for various reasons make it.
> 
> That's not what you said last year ...
> http://thunk.org/pipermail/ksummit-2006-discuss/2006-July/000665.html

And if you follow the further discussion both online and off (ok that bit
might be trickier), James explained what he was trying to achieve, why he
thought it was the right way to do it, and persuaded me he was right.

Alan
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 11:41:07AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> And very gameable of course. James proposal at least has the advantage of
> simplicity, of drawing from a rough set of relevant people (far from
> perfectly) and a certain amount of random changeover according to the KS
> of the year
> 
> I would make only one change personally - extend an email vote to the
> people on the final invite list who can't for various reasons make it.

That's not what you said last year ...
http://thunk.org/pipermail/ksummit-2006-discuss/2006-July/000665.html

-- 
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 02:13:20PM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
> Personally I am not sure whether SPI would be the right way to do it or
> not, I am a bit wary of it being too Debian biased, but I could be
> convinced otherwise.

I don't think it's the /perfect/ organisation by any means, but let's
consider the requirements:

 - Membership open to significant contributors to 'Linux' [1]
 - Has a voting process
 - Reasonably agnostic

Maybe an organisation like Linux International could handle this too,
but I don't know whether they have a membership process.

> Given that the git commit rate has already been used for a number of
> appointments, and partially to select the cabal which currently have the
> option to vote for the TAB. It seems pretty to set a threshold such that
> anyone with more than X commits (random number out of a hat, say 5) will
> get a vote - one vote per person. This avoids the issue of people who
> send out 317 patches of one-liners for comments to the MAINTAINERS file
> will gain an unproportional number of votes. I don't have the impression
> that there is a hierachy within the KS attendees providing them a number
> of votes based on their number of contributions either?

I ran the election last year (by counting hands) and there was no
weighting by contribution ;-)  More important though is the expressed
desire for the TAB to be more than kernel people.

[1] Is Linux even the right term?  The work done by the former FSG is
relevant to BSDs and Solaris.  Not to mention the kernel vs distro
discussion.

-- 
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Matthew Wilcox wrote:

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 06:54:14AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
My impression as an SPI member is that in practice most SPI members come 
from the SPI projects [1], and due to Debian's size Debian developers 
are the majority of SPI members.


That's true -- but bear in mind that most SPI members are inactive, and
don't even vote for SPI leader.  I doubt most existing members could be
bothered to vote for Linux Foundation TAB.


Hi,

It was fair enough to run the vote at KS last year to get the TAB
started in the first place. However limiting the vote to a small closed
cabal, for the future, pretty much ensures that anyone will ever stand a
chance to challenge the board if they felt a change of direction was
needed. I don't have the old emails at hand, but I thought it was stated
clearly last year that the intention was to change the process for the
future?

Personally I am not sure whether SPI would be the right way to do it or
not, I am a bit wary of it being too Debian biased, but I could be
convinced otherwise.

Given that the git commit rate has already been used for a number of
appointments, and partially to select the cabal which currently have the
option to vote for the TAB. It seems pretty to set a threshold such that
anyone with more than X commits (random number out of a hat, say 5) will
get a vote - one vote per person. This avoids the issue of people who
send out 317 patches of one-liners for comments to the MAINTAINERS file
will gain an unproportional number of votes. I don't have the impression
that there is a hierachy within the KS attendees providing them a number
of votes based on their number of contributions either?

Regards,
Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 06:54:14AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> My impression as an SPI member is that in practice most SPI members come 
> from the SPI projects [1], and due to Debian's size Debian developers 
> are the majority of SPI members.

That's true -- but bear in mind that most SPI members are inactive, and
don't even vote for SPI leader.  I doubt most existing members could be
bothered to vote for Linux Foundation TAB.

> If you elect at KS it'll favor kernel developers.
> If you let all SPI members elect it'll favor Debian developers.

The crucial difference is that anyone (within reason) can join SPI.
It's hard to join KS.  And it doesn't just 'favour' kernel developers,
it completely limits it to kernel developers.

> The Linux Foundation homepage says "The Technical Advisory Board (TAB) 
> provides the Linux kernel community a direct voice into The Linux 
> Foundation???s activities...". If this is the intention, an election at 
> the KS is the best solution.

I think that's a statement of the current position, and not necessarily
where the TAB wants to be.

-- 
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
> 
> As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
> it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
> somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

Given the huge overlap between SPI membership and Debian membership,
and then taking a look at the craziness that takes place on various
Debian mailing lists, such as but not limited to debian-legal, I'm
quite convinced that this would be a baad idea.

- Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Alan Cox]

> How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?

So you think people who send hundreds of small typo fixes are worth more
than say someone who spends 3 months writing a new driver and gets it in
with one commit ?

Curious

And very gameable of course. James proposal at least has the advantage of
simplicity, of drawing from a rough set of relevant people (far from
perfectly) and a certain amount of random changeover according to the KS
of the year

I would make only one change personally - extend an email vote to the
people on the final invite list who can't for various reasons make it.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Alan Cox]

 How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?

So you think people who send hundreds of small typo fixes are worth more
than say someone who spends 3 months writing a new driver and gets it in
with one commit ?

Curious

And very gameable of course. James proposal at least has the advantage of
simplicity, of drawing from a rough set of relevant people (far from
perfectly) and a certain amount of random changeover according to the KS
of the year

I would make only one change personally - extend an email vote to the
people on the final invite list who can't for various reasons make it.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
  The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
 
 As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
 it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
 somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

Given the huge overlap between SPI membership and Debian membership,
and then taking a look at the craziness that takes place on various
Debian mailing lists, such as but not limited to debian-legal, I'm
quite convinced that this would be a baad idea.

- Ted
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 06:54:14AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
 My impression as an SPI member is that in practice most SPI members come 
 from the SPI projects [1], and due to Debian's size Debian developers 
 are the majority of SPI members.

That's true -- but bear in mind that most SPI members are inactive, and
don't even vote for SPI leader.  I doubt most existing members could be
bothered to vote for Linux Foundation TAB.

 If you elect at KS it'll favor kernel developers.
 If you let all SPI members elect it'll favor Debian developers.

The crucial difference is that anyone (within reason) can join SPI.
It's hard to join KS.  And it doesn't just 'favour' kernel developers,
it completely limits it to kernel developers.

 The Linux Foundation homepage says The Technical Advisory Board (TAB) 
 provides the Linux kernel community a direct voice into The Linux 
 Foundation???s activities If this is the intention, an election at 
 the KS is the best solution.

I think that's a statement of the current position, and not necessarily
where the TAB wants to be.

-- 
Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Jes Sorensen]

Matthew Wilcox wrote:

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 06:54:14AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
My impression as an SPI member is that in practice most SPI members come 
from the SPI projects [1], and due to Debian's size Debian developers 
are the majority of SPI members.


That's true -- but bear in mind that most SPI members are inactive, and
don't even vote for SPI leader.  I doubt most existing members could be
bothered to vote for Linux Foundation TAB.


Hi,

It was fair enough to run the vote at KS last year to get the TAB
started in the first place. However limiting the vote to a small closed
cabal, for the future, pretty much ensures that anyone will ever stand a
chance to challenge the board if they felt a change of direction was
needed. I don't have the old emails at hand, but I thought it was stated
clearly last year that the intention was to change the process for the
future?

Personally I am not sure whether SPI would be the right way to do it or
not, I am a bit wary of it being too Debian biased, but I could be
convinced otherwise.

Given that the git commit rate has already been used for a number of
appointments, and partially to select the cabal which currently have the
option to vote for the TAB. It seems pretty to set a threshold such that
anyone with more than X commits (random number out of a hat, say 5) will
get a vote - one vote per person. This avoids the issue of people who
send out 317 patches of one-liners for comments to the MAINTAINERS file
will gain an unproportional number of votes. I don't have the impression
that there is a hierachy within the KS attendees providing them a number
of votes based on their number of contributions either?

Regards,
Jes
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 02:13:20PM +0200, Jes Sorensen wrote:
 Personally I am not sure whether SPI would be the right way to do it or
 not, I am a bit wary of it being too Debian biased, but I could be
 convinced otherwise.

I don't think it's the /perfect/ organisation by any means, but let's
consider the requirements:

 - Membership open to significant contributors to 'Linux' [1]
 - Has a voting process
 - Reasonably agnostic

Maybe an organisation like Linux International could handle this too,
but I don't know whether they have a membership process.

 Given that the git commit rate has already been used for a number of
 appointments, and partially to select the cabal which currently have the
 option to vote for the TAB. It seems pretty to set a threshold such that
 anyone with more than X commits (random number out of a hat, say 5) will
 get a vote - one vote per person. This avoids the issue of people who
 send out 317 patches of one-liners for comments to the MAINTAINERS file
 will gain an unproportional number of votes. I don't have the impression
 that there is a hierachy within the KS attendees providing them a number
 of votes based on their number of contributions either?

I ran the election last year (by counting hands) and there was no
weighting by contribution ;-)  More important though is the expressed
desire for the TAB to be more than kernel people.

[1] Is Linux even the right term?  The work done by the former FSG is
relevant to BSDs and Solaris.  Not to mention the kernel vs distro
discussion.

-- 
Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 11:41:07AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
 And very gameable of course. James proposal at least has the advantage of
 simplicity, of drawing from a rough set of relevant people (far from
 perfectly) and a certain amount of random changeover according to the KS
 of the year
 
 I would make only one change personally - extend an email vote to the
 people on the final invite list who can't for various reasons make it.

That's not what you said last year ...
http://thunk.org/pipermail/ksummit-2006-discuss/2006-July/000665.html

-- 
Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Alan Cox]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:42:24 -0600
Matthew Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 11:41:07AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
  And very gameable of course. James proposal at least has the advantage of
  simplicity, of drawing from a rough set of relevant people (far from
  perfectly) and a certain amount of random changeover according to the KS
  of the year
  
  I would make only one change personally - extend an email vote to the
  people on the final invite list who can't for various reasons make it.
 
 That's not what you said last year ...
 http://thunk.org/pipermail/ksummit-2006-discuss/2006-July/000665.html

And if you follow the further discussion both online and off (ok that bit
might be trickier), James explained what he was trying to achieve, why he
thought it was the right way to do it, and persuaded me he was right.

Alan
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 10:22:28PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
   The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
  
  As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
  it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
  somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
 
 Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
 instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
 provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
 provide us with their member list.

I currently object to becoming an SPI member due to a number of personal
reasons at this point in time.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[James Bottomley]

On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 08:57 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 10:22:28PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
   On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
   
   As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
   it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
   somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
  
  Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
  instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
  provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
  provide us with their member list.
 
 I currently object to becoming an SPI member due to a number of personal
 reasons at this point in time.

There's another alternative: and that's that we could use the voting
mechanism of the LF itself.  When the LF was formed, it inherited the
individual affiliate members from the FSG (These members actually elect
two of the board seats to the LF).  We could simply use that pool as the
electorate for the TAB ... of course, coming from the FSG it will be
more user space centric.

To be brutally frank, I couldn't give a toss about choosing the perfect
representational system for the TAB election.  In true Open Source
fashion, all I really care about is that we have a mechanism whereby
committed people can get their contributions accepted, plus we have a
check to keep the TAB straight and make it report to its constituency.
Also, being a kernel developer, I'm not unhappy with the kernel
community bias.  Various members of the kernel community worked very
hard a few years ago to get OSDL to accept a list of demands and form
the TAB, so the kernel community currently has the motivation necessary
to keep it going.

So, currently, the KS election system, while not perfect, serves its
purpose adequately.  The section of the TAB charter that deals with
member elections is easy to modify.  However, I really don't see us
changing it until either someone comes up with a better system that's
almost as simple to operate or we actually have motivated interest in
joining the TAB from outside the Kernel community that necessitates
moving away from KS as the electorate.

James


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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 12:10:40PM -0400, James Bottomley wrote:
 To be brutally frank, I couldn't give a toss about choosing the perfect
 representational system for the TAB election.  In true Open Source
 fashion, all I really care about is that we have a mechanism whereby
 committed people can get their contributions accepted, plus we have a
 check to keep the TAB straight and make it report to its constituency.
 Also, being a kernel developer, I'm not unhappy with the kernel
 community bias.  Various members of the kernel community worked very
 hard a few years ago to get OSDL to accept a list of demands and form
 the TAB, so the kernel community currently has the motivation necessary
 to keep it going.
 
 So, currently, the KS election system, while not perfect, serves its
 purpose adequately.  The section of the TAB charter that deals with
 member elections is easy to modify.  However, I really don't see us
 changing it until either someone comes up with a better system that's
 almost as simple to operate or we actually have motivated interest in
 joining the TAB from outside the Kernel community that necessitates
 moving away from KS as the electorate.

As I'm not invited to KS this year, I am disenfranchised from the
process.  I object to this.

-- 
Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Greg KH]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 08:57:35AM -0700, Greg KH wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 10:22:28PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
   On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
   
   As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
   it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
   somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.
  
  Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
  instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
  provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
  provide us with their member list.
 
 I currently object to becoming an SPI member due to a number of personal
 reasons at this point in time.

In private conversations, my previous objections were found to be
baseless and incorrect on my part, so I now withdraw my objection to
SPI.  I really have no feeling about them one way or the other now,
although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
point in time.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Alan Cox]

 although I would worry about their members only being the ones voting on
 the TAB for no other reason than the bias toward one distro only at this
 point in time.

Given the complaint was about the question of correct selection of voters
replacing the somewhat flawed kernel summit attendee test with a
completely bogus SPI membership one seems silly.

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
> 
> As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
> it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
> somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

My impression as an SPI member is that in practice most SPI members come 
from the SPI projects [1], and due to Debian's size Debian developers 
are the majority of SPI members.

If you elect at KS it'll favor kernel developers.
If you let all SPI members elect it'll favor Debian developers.

The Linux Foundation homepage says "The Technical Advisory Board (TAB) 
provides the Linux kernel community a direct voice into The Linux 
Foundation’s activities...". If this is the intention, an election at 
the KS is the best solution.

cu
Adrian

[1] the most important task of SPI is handling money for the
SPI projects (and having an US tax-exempt status)

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matt Mackall]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
> 
> As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
> it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
> somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
provide us with their member list.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
> The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.

As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

-- 
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matt Mackall]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:34:34PM -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
> On 8/23/07, Andy Isaacson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:35:07PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > > While I think that's laudable, we definitely don't have the resources
> > > > for that, as everyone on the TAB already has a full workload. And it
> > > > hardly seems worth the trouble for a once-a-year election.
> > >
> > > Exactly ... we want a process that's simple and transparent.  We chose
> > > voting at the KS because almost all the attendees satisfy the "made
> > > significant contributions to Linux" requirement without us having to do
> > > anything or make any controversial determinations.  Like Matt said,
> > > better suggestions are welcome.
> >
> > This is a dumb suggestion, but...
> >
> > How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?
> >
> > Might be worthwhile to allocate votes for Acked-By and so on, as well.
> 
> Because git only goes back to 2.6.12.

If you haven't had a patch accepted since 2.6.12, it's not really
clear you're still a contributor.

Giving various kernel janitors more votes than people doing more
difficult work might be frowned on though.

But I can see giving, say, the top N contributors by some simple
metric a vote. That'd broaden the base. (But given that only about 30%
of last year's KS attendees voted even though they were a more or less
captive audience, I'd be surprised if many bothered.)

The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Josh Boyer]

On 8/23/07, Andy Isaacson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:35:07PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > While I think that's laudable, we definitely don't have the resources
> > > for that, as everyone on the TAB already has a full workload. And it
> > > hardly seems worth the trouble for a once-a-year election.
> >
> > Exactly ... we want a process that's simple and transparent.  We chose
> > voting at the KS because almost all the attendees satisfy the "made
> > significant contributions to Linux" requirement without us having to do
> > anything or make any controversial determinations.  Like Matt said,
> > better suggestions are welcome.
>
> This is a dumb suggestion, but...
>
> How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?
>
> Might be worthwhile to allocate votes for Acked-By and so on, as well.

Because git only goes back to 2.6.12.

josh
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Andy Isaacson]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:35:07PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
> > While I think that's laudable, we definitely don't have the resources
> > for that, as everyone on the TAB already has a full workload. And it
> > hardly seems worth the trouble for a once-a-year election.
> 
> Exactly ... we want a process that's simple and transparent.  We chose
> voting at the KS because almost all the attendees satisfy the "made
> significant contributions to Linux" requirement without us having to do
> anything or make any controversial determinations.  Like Matt said,
> better suggestions are welcome.

This is a dumb suggestion, but...

How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?

Might be worthwhile to allocate votes for Acked-By and so on, as well.

-andy
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:05:21 -0400ve a bit more direct ability to make
> An SPI-like or Debian-like approach with pure democracy might look
> good on paper, but when you have companies donating hundreds of
> thousands of dollars and up to the organization, having a board which
> is elected by mobs of GPLv3 groupies would understandably scare them.
> So we need some way of selecting the kernel developers who are willing
> to invest the time to help the LF do the right thing with the
> resources that they have been given.  


one thing here before people bring up the "what about the users"
argument; the Linux Foundation already has a separate forum for getting
input from users as well as a separate forum for "vendors"; the TAB is
aimed at the developer (community) side in this 3-fora structure.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 10:49:57PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
> Then you're misconstruing the interactions.  A representational role
> would imply the ability to speak for the community and make promises on
> its behalf.  That, as Ted has already said, can't happen.  Instead, the
> value to the LF is that the TAB contains people experienced in community
> interactions who can act as a sounding board for what may (or may not)
> be well received.

One thing that may be helpful for people to understand is that serving
on the TAB is more a matter of service than anything else.  There are
relatively few benefits of actually being on the TAB.  Sure, you may
be more likely to get a free trip to Japan to talk about what's going
on in kernel development and to help some of the Japanese developers
being employed by the Japanese member comapnies become more effective
contributors to Linux and the LKML.  But, the sort of people that
serve on the TAB generally travel too much already, and there has
already been talk about trying to get more people outside of the TAB
who are interested in serving in this role to have a chance to go to
the LF Japan Linux Symposium.

And sure, the TAB members have a bit more direct ability to make
suggestions about how various LF programs that directly benefit the
Linux community will be managed --- but the flip side of that is there
are monthly concalls and documents to review, and for the chair of the
TAB (currently James), the responsibility to sit on day-long,
face-to-face OSDL (and now Linux Foundation) board meetings.  This
last is important, since many of the other members of the board are
from companies that are contributing large sums of money to the LF,
which means they are generally VP's and General Managers.  Those folks
are generally not technical at all, and are so far removed from the
kernel community that they have no idea how to help the kernel
community or even if certain proposals or initiative that they might
try out would be well received.

OSDL, to its credit (and those of you who know me know that I was
often very critical of the OSDL, in part because its leadership and
management was so badly disconnected from community concerns), FINALLY
realized this was a problem in recent years, and so the TAB was the
first attempt to try to solve this problem.

An SPI-like or Debian-like approach with pure democracy might look
good on paper, but when you have companies donating hundreds of
thousands of dollars and up to the organization, having a board which
is elected by mobs of GPLv3 groupies would understandably scare them.
So we need some way of selecting the kernel developers who are willing
to invest the time to help the LF do the right thing with the
resources that they have been given.  One way of doing this would be
to have someone from the LF just pick the obvious candidates; the
problem with that is that it would be rightly viewed as cronyism.
Another way would be to have a membership committee that selected
people who are considered true members of the kernel development
community, and then let them vote.  But that's a rather heavyweight
solution, and if could result in all sorts of hard feelings about who
is and isn't allowed to vote.

Having the election at the KS was basically a lightweight way of doing
this, although I would have to admit that the pool of electors is a
much smaller than my liking.  If the TAB was able to make promises on
behalf of the community, or enter into deals that bound the
community[1], or if it controlled a significant monetary budget, then
we would probably need a much more heavyweight and rigorous election
process.

But, as other people have said, patches are welcome.  Feel free to
suggest other ways in which this could be done, keeping in mind our
design constraints.

- Ted

[1] Which at one point the FSF was hoping they could do during the
GPLv3 discussions.  We very quickly set them straight that while the
TAB could talk about concerns that we as individuals had and talk
about concerns that had been expressed on the LKML, there was no way
that the TAB could negotiate any kind of quid pro quo on behalf of the
community; and thus we could not represent the kernel community in
that sense of the word.  The only way in which the TAB is
"representational" is in the sense of the word "representative
sample"; the LF leadership team can't talk to every single kernel
developer, so it needs to find a what is hopefully a representative
sample of kernel developers, who are also willing to put in the time
and effort to help the LF succeed.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Theodore Tso]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 10:49:57PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
 Then you're misconstruing the interactions.  A representational role
 would imply the ability to speak for the community and make promises on
 its behalf.  That, as Ted has already said, can't happen.  Instead, the
 value to the LF is that the TAB contains people experienced in community
 interactions who can act as a sounding board for what may (or may not)
 be well received.

One thing that may be helpful for people to understand is that serving
on the TAB is more a matter of service than anything else.  There are
relatively few benefits of actually being on the TAB.  Sure, you may
be more likely to get a free trip to Japan to talk about what's going
on in kernel development and to help some of the Japanese developers
being employed by the Japanese member comapnies become more effective
contributors to Linux and the LKML.  But, the sort of people that
serve on the TAB generally travel too much already, and there has
already been talk about trying to get more people outside of the TAB
who are interested in serving in this role to have a chance to go to
the LF Japan Linux Symposium.

And sure, the TAB members have a bit more direct ability to make
suggestions about how various LF programs that directly benefit the
Linux community will be managed --- but the flip side of that is there
are monthly concalls and documents to review, and for the chair of the
TAB (currently James), the responsibility to sit on day-long,
face-to-face OSDL (and now Linux Foundation) board meetings.  This
last is important, since many of the other members of the board are
from companies that are contributing large sums of money to the LF,
which means they are generally VP's and General Managers.  Those folks
are generally not technical at all, and are so far removed from the
kernel community that they have no idea how to help the kernel
community or even if certain proposals or initiative that they might
try out would be well received.

OSDL, to its credit (and those of you who know me know that I was
often very critical of the OSDL, in part because its leadership and
management was so badly disconnected from community concerns), FINALLY
realized this was a problem in recent years, and so the TAB was the
first attempt to try to solve this problem.

An SPI-like or Debian-like approach with pure democracy might look
good on paper, but when you have companies donating hundreds of
thousands of dollars and up to the organization, having a board which
is elected by mobs of GPLv3 groupies would understandably scare them.
So we need some way of selecting the kernel developers who are willing
to invest the time to help the LF do the right thing with the
resources that they have been given.  One way of doing this would be
to have someone from the LF just pick the obvious candidates; the
problem with that is that it would be rightly viewed as cronyism.
Another way would be to have a membership committee that selected
people who are considered true members of the kernel development
community, and then let them vote.  But that's a rather heavyweight
solution, and if could result in all sorts of hard feelings about who
is and isn't allowed to vote.

Having the election at the KS was basically a lightweight way of doing
this, although I would have to admit that the pool of electors is a
much smaller than my liking.  If the TAB was able to make promises on
behalf of the community, or enter into deals that bound the
community[1], or if it controlled a significant monetary budget, then
we would probably need a much more heavyweight and rigorous election
process.

But, as other people have said, patches are welcome.  Feel free to
suggest other ways in which this could be done, keeping in mind our
design constraints.

- Ted

[1] Which at one point the FSF was hoping they could do during the
GPLv3 discussions.  We very quickly set them straight that while the
TAB could talk about concerns that we as individuals had and talk
about concerns that had been expressed on the LKML, there was no way
that the TAB could negotiate any kind of quid pro quo on behalf of the
community; and thus we could not represent the kernel community in
that sense of the word.  The only way in which the TAB is
representational is in the sense of the word representative
sample; the LF leadership team can't talk to every single kernel
developer, so it needs to find a what is hopefully a representative
sample of kernel developers, who are also willing to put in the time
and effort to help the LF succeed.
-
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:05:21 -0400ve a bit more direct ability to make
 An SPI-like or Debian-like approach with pure democracy might look
 good on paper, but when you have companies donating hundreds of
 thousands of dollars and up to the organization, having a board which
 is elected by mobs of GPLv3 groupies would understandably scare them.
 So we need some way of selecting the kernel developers who are willing
 to invest the time to help the LF do the right thing with the
 resources that they have been given.  


one thing here before people bring up the what about the users
argument; the Linux Foundation already has a separate forum for getting
input from users as well as a separate forum for vendors; the TAB is
aimed at the developer (community) side in this 3-fora structure.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Andy Isaacson]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:35:07PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
  While I think that's laudable, we definitely don't have the resources
  for that, as everyone on the TAB already has a full workload. And it
  hardly seems worth the trouble for a once-a-year election.
 
 Exactly ... we want a process that's simple and transparent.  We chose
 voting at the KS because almost all the attendees satisfy the made
 significant contributions to Linux requirement without us having to do
 anything or make any controversial determinations.  Like Matt said,
 better suggestions are welcome.

This is a dumb suggestion, but...

How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?

Might be worthwhile to allocate votes for Acked-By and so on, as well.

-andy
-
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Josh Boyer]

On 8/23/07, Andy Isaacson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:35:07PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
   While I think that's laudable, we definitely don't have the resources
   for that, as everyone on the TAB already has a full workload. And it
   hardly seems worth the trouble for a once-a-year election.
 
  Exactly ... we want a process that's simple and transparent.  We chose
  voting at the KS because almost all the attendees satisfy the made
  significant contributions to Linux requirement without us having to do
  anything or make any controversial determinations.  Like Matt said,
  better suggestions are welcome.

 This is a dumb suggestion, but...

 How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?

 Might be worthwhile to allocate votes for Acked-By and so on, as well.

Because git only goes back to 2.6.12.

josh
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
 The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.

As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

-- 
Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matt Mackall]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:34:34PM -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
 On 8/23/07, Andy Isaacson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:35:07PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
While I think that's laudable, we definitely don't have the resources
for that, as everyone on the TAB already has a full workload. And it
hardly seems worth the trouble for a once-a-year election.
  
   Exactly ... we want a process that's simple and transparent.  We chose
   voting at the KS because almost all the attendees satisfy the made
   significant contributions to Linux requirement without us having to do
   anything or make any controversial determinations.  Like Matt said,
   better suggestions are welcome.
 
  This is a dumb suggestion, but...
 
  How about one vote per git commit merged to linus' tree?
 
  Might be worthwhile to allocate votes for Acked-By and so on, as well.
 
 Because git only goes back to 2.6.12.

If you haven't had a patch accepted since 2.6.12, it's not really
clear you're still a contributor.

Giving various kernel janitors more votes than people doing more
difficult work might be frowned on though.

But I can see giving, say, the top N contributors by some simple
metric a vote. That'd broaden the base. (But given that only about 30%
of last year's KS attendees voted even though they were a more or less
captive audience, I'd be surprised if many bothered.)

The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Matt Mackall]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
  The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
 
 As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
 it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
 somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

Ahh, I didn't realize you were suggesting making -them- do the work
instead of just stealing their model. I suppose that could work,
provided no one finds being an SPI member objectionable and they'd
provide us with their member list.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.
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Re: [Tech-board-discuss] Re: [Ksummit-2007-discuss] Re: Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 08:55:04PM -0600, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 23, 2007 at 09:52:54PM -0500, Matt Mackall wrote:
  The other part of the puzzle is including the wider Linux community.
 
 As I said; what's wrong with just using SPI membership?  It's not like
 it is remotely hard for kernel hackers to gain membership in SPI.  And
 somebody else takes care of the bureaucracy for you.

My impression as an SPI member is that in practice most SPI members come 
from the SPI projects [1], and due to Debian's size Debian developers 
are the majority of SPI members.

If you elect at KS it'll favor kernel developers.
If you let all SPI members elect it'll favor Debian developers.

The Linux Foundation homepage says The Technical Advisory Board (TAB) 
provides the Linux kernel community a direct voice into The Linux 
Foundation’s activities If this is the intention, an election at 
the KS is the best solution.

cu
Adrian

[1] the most important task of SPI is handling money for the
SPI projects (and having an US tax-exempt status)

-- 

   Is there not promise of rain? Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   Only a promise, Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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