Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sat, 23 Jun 2001, watermodem wrote: [snip interior quotes] > Would never work with the ac-series. Not enough time > to form a neural pattern between builds. There is > a semi-prior art here. Unix on the Tandem (now Compaq) > Helix shipped (and maybe still does) with a Neural Net > for system sanity and tuning. Only problem is that > the learning period usually exceeds the average time > between installing releases (communications customers). > 8^) For a less ambitious approach that worked fairly well for a lot of sites (including mine) see also VMS Autogen. It was nice, having a mechanical "expert" looking over my shoulder, making suggestions, double-checking my ideas, etc. One run a week was usually enough to tune a system pretty well, for a general timesharing/batch/modest services load. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make a good day. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
I'm hopelessly behind on my mail, so this has probably been dealt with, already, but here goes: It's a userspace problem. That is, any automagical VM tuner ought to be a daemon. If the kernel doesn't expose enough information or knobs to make a good VM tuner, add what is needed. Meanwhile, if anyone has a good handle on how to tune for interactivity vs. power saving vs. server performance, it seems that a lot of sysadmin.s need a good reference *from the sysadmin point of view* on how to tune manually for different sorts of loads. If the kernel is tunable in ways that are understandable, it'll be fairly easy to tune by hand and the daemon may not be needed at all. And again, we have a userspace solution that doesn't add much weight to the kernel. The original post does make a valuable point: resource allocation is a problem with *no general solution*, because the goodness of a solution depends on the values of the person applying it. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Make a good day. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Colonel wrote: > As a physicist, I learned long ago that if you cannot use the back of > an envelope and explain your theory to a secretary, you do not > understand it. It has only been revealed recently where some VM > design information may be hidden, and it's apparently out of date. > Maintenance requires good documentation, especially in critical areas. > I hope that your suggestion succeeds, and that a document is passed > around, but I'll bet a large amount that it doesn't happen. Your contributions are welcome. I'm looking forward to your updated documentation and patches. regards, Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Colonel wrote: > >May I suggested an algorithm? > > > > - Write down what you think the optimization constraints are. > >(be specific, for example, enumerate all the flavors of page types - > >process code, process data, page cache file data, page cache swap > >cache, anonymous, shmem, etc.) > > > > - Write down what you think the current algorithms are. > >(again, be specific, use file names, function names, pseudocode and > >snippets of existing code.) > > > > - Send it to Rik. He'll tell you if it's right. > > POST IT. Give the rest of us some clues and the opportunity to check > evaluator's replies. Why don't YOU post it? All I've seen from you are complaints and insults, nothing constructive yet. regards, Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Monday 25 June 2001 17:46, Colonel wrote: > >> POST IT. Give the rest of us some clues and the opportunity to check > >> evaluator's replies. > > > >Well, if you try that strategy you'll find you never get around to posting > > it because you'll be too worried about getting it right. The point is > > not to get it right, it's to get a starting point down on (virtual) > > paper. I'd strongly suggest passing something like that around for > > comment privately first. > > Well, it does seem that some ego is involved here... Not in this case. Do it whichever way you want, the point is: do it (don't just talk about it) -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
>> POST IT. Give the rest of us some clues and the opportunity to check >> evaluator's replies. > >Well, if you try that strategy you'll find you never get around to posting it >because you'll be too worried about getting it right. The point is not to >get it right, it's to get a starting point down on (virtual) paper. I'd >strongly suggest passing something like that around for comment privately >first. Well, it does seem that some ego is involved here... > >*Then* post it. > >(and convince me you're not just talking) As a physicist, I learned long ago that if you cannot use the back of an envelope and explain your theory to a secretary, you do not understand it. It has only been revealed recently where some VM design information may be hidden, and it's apparently out of date. Maintenance requires good documentation, especially in critical areas. I hope that your suggestion succeeds, and that a document is passed around, but I'll bet a large amount that it doesn't happen. If everyone is in the dark, it gets difficult to criticize the guy with a match and leaves the matchholder in charge. Some matchholders want it that way. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Monday 25 June 2001 05:44, Colonel wrote: > In clouddancer.list.kernel, you wrote: > >On Monday 25 June 2001 03:46, Russell Leighton wrote: > >> I read this thread as asking the question: > >> > >> If VM management is viewed as an optimization problem, > >> then what exactly is the function that you are optimizing and what > >> are the constraints? > >> > >> If you could express that well with a even a very loose model, then > >> the code could be reviewed to see if it was really doing what was > >> intended and assumptions could be tested. > > > >May I suggest an algorithm? > > > > - Write down what you think the optimization constraints are. > >(be specific, for example, enumerate all the flavors of page types - > >process code, process data, page cache file data, page cache swap > >cache, anonymous, shmem, etc.) > > > > - Write down what you think the current algorithms are. > >(again, be specific, use file names, function names, pseudocode and > >snippets of existing code.) > > > > - Send it to Rik. He'll tell you if it's right. > > POST IT. Give the rest of us some clues and the opportunity to check > evaluator's replies. Well, if you try that strategy you'll find you never get around to posting it because you'll be too worried about getting it right. The point is not to get it right, it's to get a starting point down on (virtual) paper. I'd strongly suggest passing something like that around for comment privately first. *Then* post it. (and convince me you're not just talking) -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
In clouddancer.list.kernel, you wrote: > >On Monday 25 June 2001 03:46, Russell Leighton wrote: >> I read this thread as asking the question: >> >> If VM management is viewed as an optimization problem, >> then what exactly is the function that you are optimizing and what are >> the constraints? >> >> If you could express that well with a even a very loose model, then >> the code could be reviewed to see if it was really doing what was intended >> and assumptions could be tested. > >May I suggested an algorithm? > > - Write down what you think the optimization constraints are. >(be specific, for example, enumerate all the flavors of page types - >process code, process data, page cache file data, page cache swap >cache, anonymous, shmem, etc.) > > - Write down what you think the current algorithms are. >(again, be specific, use file names, function names, pseudocode and >snippets of existing code.) > > - Send it to Rik. He'll tell you if it's right. POST IT. Give the rest of us some clues and the opportunity to check evaluator's replies. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
In clouddancer.list.kernel, you wrote: > >On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Colonel wrote: > >> It's simple. I want the old reliable behavior back, the one I found >> in kernels from 1.1.41 thru 2.2.14. > >And which one would that be ? Note that there have been >4 different VM subsystems in that time and the kernel has >made the transition from the buffer cache to the page cache >in that period. Once again a typical Rik comment. Completely misses the point and picks something obscure to comment upon, after carefully removing the remaining text. PICK ONE! >Please make up your mind before making feature requests ;) Try OPENING yours. There really is a world beyond your nose. -- "Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, that self trains itself to the load you put on the system. Hideously complex and evil? Well, why not wire up that roach on the floor, eating that stale cheese doodle. It can't do any worse job on VM that some of the VM patches I've seen..." -- Jason McMullan ditto - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Monday 25 June 2001 03:46, Russell Leighton wrote: > I read this thread as asking the question: > > If VM management is viewed as an optimization problem, > then what exactly is the function that you are optimizing and what are > the constraints? > > If you could express that well with a even a very loose model, then > the code could be reviewed to see if it was really doing what was intended > and assumptions could be tested. May I suggested an algorithm? - Write down what you think the optimization constraints are. (be specific, for example, enumerate all the flavors of page types - process code, process data, page cache file data, page cache swap cache, anonymous, shmem, etc.) - Write down what you think the current algorithms are. (again, be specific, use file names, function names, pseudocode and snippets of existing code.) - Send it to Rik. He'll tell you if it's right. - Because life is short and should not be boring, cc it to Andrea as well ;-) This way you save everybody's time and ensure you understand what's really going on. Not to mention coming up with a document worth its weight in dilithium crystals. -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
I read this thread as asking the question:
If VM management is viewed as an optimization problem,
then what exactly is the function that you are optimizing and what are the
constraints?
If you could express that well with a even a very loose model, then
the code could be reviewed to see if it was really doing what was intended
and assumptions could be tested.
This seems like a reasonable request.
Jason McMullan wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:04:43PM -0300, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > OK. I challenge you to come up with:
> >
> > 1) the set of inputs for the neural network
> > 2) the set of outputs
> > 3) the goal for training the thing
> >
> > I'm pretty fed up with people who want to "change the VM"
> > but never give any details of their ideas.
>
> Uhh. That's not what I was ranting about. What I was
> ranting about is that we have never 'put to paper' the
> requirements ('motiviations') for a good VM, nor have we
> looked at said nonexistent list and figured out what instrumentation
> would be needed.
>
> I don't now that much about VM, but I do know a bunch of
> people each scratching their own itch, and most of them not looking
> at the bigger picture. Linus, RvR, etc. excepted. Mostly. ;^)
>
> The whole 'neural network' bit was mostly troll. Sorry,
> I got a little carried away at that point.
>
> --
> Jason McMullan, Senior Linux Consultant
> Linuxcare, Inc. 412.432.6457 tel, 412.656.3519 cell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.linuxcare.com/
> Linuxcare. Putting open source to work.
> -
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--
---
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---
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Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 04:29:09PM -0300, Rik van Riel wrote: > > Over the last year there has been quite a bit of discussion > > with Stephen Tweedie, Matt Dillon and more people. Parts of > > it can be found on http://linux-mm.org/ > > > > The conclusion of most of this discussion is in my FREENIX > > paper, which can be found at http://www.surriel.com/lectures/. > > [Just finished reading your paper, and hit the linux-mm.org site] > > Good overview of the Linux 2.4 VM. Although I do > have some questions... > > * When was the 'FREENIX' paper published? I could find > no date for it. Next week. Sh... ;) > * What workloads would you recommend for testing whether > a VM is 'well balanced' or not? Whatever it is you always do. We're not interested in seeing if the VM works well in unrealistic benchmarks, we want it to run well in your normal workload. > * Would it be reasonable to have different 'default' > tunings for the kernel's VM based upon memory/swap > size/bandwidth? Personally, I feel that swap bandwidth > is an oft overlooked parameter in estimating VM performance. Maybe. Suggestions and patches on what to tune and how are welcome. Extremely general handwaving generally doesn't add much value to the discussion. regards, Rik -- Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release: "we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL)" http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 04:29:09PM -0300, Rik van Riel wrote: > Over the last year there has been quite a bit of discussion > with Stephen Tweedie, Matt Dillon and more people. Parts of > it can be found on http://linux-mm.org/ > > The conclusion of most of this discussion is in my FREENIX > paper, which can be found at http://www.surriel.com/lectures/. [Just finished reading your paper, and hit the linux-mm.org site] Good overview of the Linux 2.4 VM. Although I do have some questions... * When was the 'FREENIX' paper published? I could find no date for it. * What workloads would you recommend for testing whether a VM is 'well balanced' or not? * Would it be reasonable to have different 'default' tunings for the kernel's VM based upon memory/swap size/bandwidth? Personally, I feel that swap bandwidth is an oft overlooked parameter in estimating VM performance. -- Jason McMullan, Senior Linux Consultant Linuxcare, Inc. 412.432.6457 tel, 412.656.3519 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.linuxcare.com/ Linuxcare. Putting open source to work. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
>The conclusion of most of this discussion is in my FREENIX >paper, which can be found at http://www.surriel.com/lectures/. Aha... that paper answers a lot of the questions I had about how things work. I seem to remember asking some of them, too, and didn't get an answer... :P -- -- from: Jonathan "Chromatix" Morton mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (not for attachments) website: http://www.chromatix.uklinux.net/vnc/ geekcode: GCS$/E dpu(!) s:- a20 C+++ UL++ P L+++ E W+ N- o? K? w--- O-- M++$ V? PS PE- Y+ PGP++ t- 5- X- R !tv b++ DI+++ D G e+ h+ r++ y+(*) tagline: The key to knowledge is not to rely on people to teach you it. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
At 03:26 PM 6/24/01 -0300, Rik van Riel wrote:
>On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote:
>
> > Uhh. That's not what I was ranting about. What I was
> > ranting about is that we have never 'put to paper' the
> > requirements ('motiviations') for a good VM, nor have we
> > looked at said nonexistent list and figured out what instrumentation
> > would be needed.
>
>But we have. The fact that you missed the event doesn't
>make it any less true.
URL, please?
If the requirements/motivations were "put on paper" getting them on the Web
is not a big deal. If it's *only* on paper, I can give you my fax number
and I'll be happy to put it up on the Web.
Satch
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Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:26:13PM -0300, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote:
> > > Uhh. That's not what I was ranting about. What I was
> > > ranting about is that we have never 'put to paper' the
> > > requirements ('motiviations') for a good VM, nor have we
> > > looked at said nonexistent list and figured out what instrumentation
> > > would be needed.
> >
> > But we have. The fact that you missed the event doesn't
> > make it any less true.
>
> Excellent! Where can I find this? I would be most
> interested in what your considerations for a good VM are.
> (It'd probably be a good thing to reference people to when
> they start arguing off-the-cuff about VMs, eh?)
Over the last year there has been quite a bit of discussion
with Stephen Tweedie, Matt Dillon and more people. Parts of
it can be found on http://linux-mm.org/
The conclusion of most of this discussion is in my FREENIX
paper, which can be found at http://www.surriel.com/lectures/.
regards,
Rik
--
Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release:
"we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL)"
http://www.surriel.com/
http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/
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Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:26:13PM -0300, Rik van Riel wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote:
> > Uhh. That's not what I was ranting about. What I was
> > ranting about is that we have never 'put to paper' the
> > requirements ('motiviations') for a good VM, nor have we
> > looked at said nonexistent list and figured out what instrumentation
> > would be needed.
>
> But we have. The fact that you missed the event doesn't
> make it any less true.
Excellent! Where can I find this? I would be most
interested in what your considerations for a good VM are.
(It'd probably be a good thing to reference people to when
they start arguing off-the-cuff about VMs, eh?)
--
Jason McMullan, Senior Linux Consultant
Linuxcare, Inc. 412.432.6457 tel, 412.656.3519 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.linuxcare.com/
Linuxcare. Putting open source to work.
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Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote:
> Uhh. That's not what I was ranting about. What I was
> ranting about is that we have never 'put to paper' the
> requirements ('motiviations') for a good VM, nor have we
> looked at said nonexistent list and figured out what instrumentation
> would be needed.
But we have. The fact that you missed the event doesn't
make it any less true.
Rik
--
Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...
http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/
Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy)
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Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:04:43PM -0300, Rik van Riel wrote:
> OK. I challenge you to come up with:
>
> 1) the set of inputs for the neural network
> 2) the set of outputs
> 3) the goal for training the thing
>
> I'm pretty fed up with people who want to "change the VM"
> but never give any details of their ideas.
Uhh. That's not what I was ranting about. What I was
ranting about is that we have never 'put to paper' the
requirements ('motiviations') for a good VM, nor have we
looked at said nonexistent list and figured out what instrumentation
would be needed.
I don't now that much about VM, but I do know a bunch of
people each scratching their own itch, and most of them not looking
at the bigger picture. Linus, RvR, etc. excepted. Mostly. ;^)
The whole 'neural network' bit was mostly troll. Sorry,
I got a little carried away at that point.
--
Jason McMullan, Senior Linux Consultant
Linuxcare, Inc. 412.432.6457 tel, 412.656.3519 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.linuxcare.com/
Linuxcare. Putting open source to work.
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Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Colonel wrote: > It's simple. I want the old reliable behavior back, the one I found > in kernels from 1.1.41 thru 2.2.14. And which one would that be ? Note that there have been 4 different VM subsystems in that time and the kernel has made the transition from the buffer cache to the page cache in that period. Please make up your mind before making feature requests ;) regards, Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
In clouddancer.list.kernel, you wrote: > >On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > >> One we know how we would 'train' our little VM critter, we >> will know how to measure its performance. Once we have measures, we >> can have good benchmarks. Once we have good benchmarks - we can pick >> a good VM alg. >> >> Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, that > >OK. I challenge you to come up with: > >1) the set of inputs for the neural network >2) the set of outputs >3) the goal for training the thing > >I'm pretty fed up with people who want to "change the VM" >but never give any details of their ideas. It's simple. I want the old reliable behavior back, the one I found in kernels from 1.1.41 thru 2.2.14. The behavior that I have enjoyed for 7 years, the one that allows me to chuckle when listening to windoze user's expressing their woes. Not the one that kills important processes because of some fantasy AI, not the one that locks up the machine. The one that lets me run an unattended machine for months rather than barely make it thru a week. What you hear now is nothing compared to the roar that will occur shortly (as the distributions start releasing 2.4 versions) when the masses encounter the current surprises. They will not be able to say in detail how to change the VM, other than the above. We want to USE linux and depend upon it, not become VM gurus to fix our kernels. -- "Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, that self trains itself to the load you put on the system. Hideously complex and evil? Well, why not wire up that roach on the floor, eating that stale cheese doodle. It can't do any worse job on VM that some of the VM patches I've seen..." -- Jason McMullan ditto - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > One we know how we would 'train' our little VM critter, we > will know how to measure its performance. Once we have measures, we > can have good benchmarks. Once we have good benchmarks - we can pick > a good VM alg. > > Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, that OK. I challenge you to come up with: 1) the set of inputs for the neural network 2) the set of outputs 3) the goal for training the thing I'm pretty fed up with people who want to "change the VM" but never give any details of their ideas. regards, Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
Rik van Riel wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > > > Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, > > that self trains itself to the load you put on the system. > > Hideously complex and evil? > > Considering the amount of parameters the neural network > would have to tune, and the fact that there are no easy > parameters to tune, good luck... > Would never work with the ac-series. Not enough time to form a neural pattern between builds. There is a semi-prior art here. Unix on the Tandem (now Compaq) Helix shipped (and maybe still does) with a Neural Net for system sanity and tuning. Only problem is that the learning period usually exceeds the average time between installing releases (communications customers). 8^) Now if it was a FAST LEARNER... > > the floor, eating that stale cheese doodle. It can't do any > > worse job on VM that some of the VM patches I've seen... > > You'd be surprised. > > Rik > -- > Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release: >"we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL)" > > http://www.surriel.com/ > http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > > > I've been reading the VM thread off-and-on for, oh, the last > 8 _years_ on linux-kernel. It doesn't seem that much progress gets > made in any one direction. For every throughput optimination for servers, > the desktop people yell 'interactivity'. For every 'long-disk-idle' > desire the laptop guys have, others want large buffer caches. > > It goes back and forth. Everybody pulling from all sides, and > the VM performance has stayed (mostly) in the center. > > Well, I have an idea. Let's take a page from the Neural > Network guys (not the code, just the ideas), and look at VM from a > motivational perspective. > > What if the VM were your little Tuxigachi. A little critter > that lived in your computer, handling all the memory, swap, and > cache management. What would be the positive and negative feedback > you'd give him to tell him how well he's doing VM? > > Here's a short, off-the-cuff list that hopefully most > everyone can agree on. > > Positive > > * Low system CPU load for the VM timeslice > * Process IO requests / Disk IO is less than 1.0 > * Large idle times between disk activity > * Process don't have to wait long for pages from VM. > * etc. > > Negative > > * High CPU usage for VM > * High disk IO for low number of process IO requests. > * Disk is rarely idle > * Processes stall for a long time waiting for VM. > * Deadlocks (fatal!) > * etc. > > One we know how we would 'train' our little VM critter, we > will know how to measure its performance. Once we have measures, we > can have good benchmarks. Once we have good benchmarks - we can pick > a good VM alg. We are talking with the OSDL people (http://www.osdlab.org) to setup an automatic testing system (differents benchmarks, different configurations, etc) which will give us a wider notion of VM changes wrt performance. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [OT] What are the VM motivations??
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Justin Guyett wrote: > > One we know how we would 'train' our little VM critter, we > > will know how to measure its performance. Once we have measures, we > > can have good benchmarks. Once we have good benchmarks - we can pick > > a good VM alg. > > I can see it now... "Care and Feeding of your linux kernel VM for Dummies" Shouldn't that be "by Dummies(tm)" ? ;) Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: What are the VM motivations??
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, > that self trains itself to the load you put on the system. > Hideously complex and evil? Considering the amount of parameters the neural network would have to tune, and the fact that there are no easy parameters to tune, good luck... > the floor, eating that stale cheese doodle. It can't do any > worse job on VM that some of the VM patches I've seen... You'd be surprised. Rik -- Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release: "we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL)" http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [OT] What are the VM motivations??
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Jason McMullan wrote: > One we know how we would 'train' our little VM critter, we > will know how to measure its performance. Once we have measures, we > can have good benchmarks. Once we have good benchmarks - we can pick > a good VM alg. > > Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, that > self trains itself to the load you put on the system. Hideously > complex and evil? Well, why not wire up that roach on the floor, eating > that stale cheese doodle. It can't do any worse job on VM that some of the > VM patches I've seen... I can see it now... "Care and Feeding of your linux kernel VM for Dummies" justin - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
What are the VM motivations??
I've been reading the VM thread off-and-on for, oh, the last 8 _years_ on linux-kernel. It doesn't seem that much progress gets made in any one direction. For every throughput optimination for servers, the desktop people yell 'interactivity'. For every 'long-disk-idle' desire the laptop guys have, others want large buffer caches. It goes back and forth. Everybody pulling from all sides, and the VM performance has stayed (mostly) in the center. Well, I have an idea. Let's take a page from the Neural Network guys (not the code, just the ideas), and look at VM from a motivational perspective. What if the VM were your little Tuxigachi. A little critter that lived in your computer, handling all the memory, swap, and cache management. What would be the positive and negative feedback you'd give him to tell him how well he's doing VM? Here's a short, off-the-cuff list that hopefully most everyone can agree on. Positive * Low system CPU load for the VM timeslice * Process IO requests / Disk IO is less than 1.0 * Large idle times between disk activity * Process don't have to wait long for pages from VM. * etc. Negative * High CPU usage for VM * High disk IO for low number of process IO requests. * Disk is rarely idle * Processes stall for a long time waiting for VM. * Deadlocks (fatal!) * etc. One we know how we would 'train' our little VM critter, we will know how to measure its performance. Once we have measures, we can have good benchmarks. Once we have good benchmarks - we can pick a good VM alg. Or heck, let's just make the VM a _real_ Neural Network, that self trains itself to the load you put on the system. Hideously complex and evil? Well, why not wire up that roach on the floor, eating that stale cheese doodle. It can't do any worse job on VM that some of the VM patches I've seen... -- Jason McMullan, Senior Linux Consultant Linuxcare, Inc. 412.432.6457 tel, 412.656.3519 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.linuxcare.com/ Linuxcare. Putting open source to work. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
