Re: [linux-sunxi] Communication with Allwinner
On 17 February 2015 at 23:19, Julian Calaby julian.cal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Luc, On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 1:49 AM, Luc Verhaegen l...@skynet.be wrote: On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 03:46:34PM +0100, Koen Kooi wrote: How's that DRM driver doing, any code yet? At some point. But at least i am not the one whining about it all the time. I will make noise when it's there. Is this something people could help you with? No. It's something that happens behind closed door and nothing is released until it's done. You can, of course, start your own kms driver. Which would be a waste of effort since one is already worked on. And which will be likely ridiculed by Luc because he as the veteran KMS developer who even invented the thing knows best how it's done. Luc might be a brilliant developer but his attitude can be described as less then welcoming to new contributors Or even discouraging contribution to the parts of sunxi project he has stepped up to develop or maintain. Thanks Michal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: sunxi-mali and FRAMEBUFFER issues
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 09:04:48 -0800 (PST) Simo Xefil xe...@xefil.com wrote: Hello Siarhei, First of all thanks for your answer. Basically, I'm searching a way to let the drivers work properly based on the hardware performances. framebuffer is much more faster Yes, the mali framebuffer driver is roughly ~20% faster than the x11 driver, at least as measured in glmark2-es2. And the difference is even bigger than that if the system is not configured optimally. For example, the ondemand cpufreq governor interacts really bad with the X server. Also you need to get the buffers reservation right, but having the settings partially in the script.bin and partially in the command line for the sunxi-3.4 kernel does not make it particularly easy. There were attempts to ensure that the configuration is reasonable out of the box. But there was always somebody with some sort of objections. That's how democracy works. Just one week of dictatorship could have really solved a lot of issues in the sunxi-3.4 kernel :-) , so, for such devices is the best choise. Assuming that you can accept the limitations. There is no free lunch. I'm not asking the driver to handle multi-tasking. Using the 'test' program from the terminal (not within X11) I got the same results. The monitor is not refreshed after the triangle is drawn even if the program is already exited. If a program has rendered a triangle in the framebuffer, then this triangle just stays in the framebuffer. This is a perfectly obvious outcome. If you don't want to see this triangle anymore, then somebody needs to clear the framebuffer and use it for something else. Back to desktop env, programs like XBMC (A10 fork) or emulators like retroarch, compiled to use framebuffer, are working very well, expect when you exit the program. At this point, the last printed image remains on screen. The only way I've found until today is to restart lxde or switch between X11 and terminal to force a refresh. There are surely plenty of ways to clear the framebuffer. And you can also even make a copy of the old framebuffer data and restore it after the application has terminated. Everything is up to you. Or up to the developers of the framebuffer based applications. With an emulator, where I could need switch between games often, every time I quit the game, the image remains impressed and I cannot change it. I've no idea how to invent a way to force the refresh. If you have an idea I would try to investigate in that direction. I don't expect a finished solution (even it, in case, would be of course appreciated). I'd try to find/try by myself, but have no idea where to search. Any suggestion is really welcome :-) Does, for example, running cat /dev/zero /dev/fb0 help? -- Best regards, Siarhei Siamashka -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[linux-sunxi] Bootable Debian installer SD card for A10/A10s/A20 with UART serial console
Hello, Please try: http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Mainline_Debian_HowTooldid=13144#Using_a_ready-made_installation_SD_card_image_instead_of_bootstrapping It is just a Debian installer initrd, added to the bootable SD card image from http://lists.denx.de/pipermail/u-boot/2015-January/202306.html Almost a month has passed, but I did not get any feedback with test results from the users, let alone the existing maintainers of the SD card images for sunxi devices (cubian, bananian, etc.). The broadcast announcements in the mailing list don't seem to be particularly efficient :-) Still the feedback is very much needed. I wonder if there are any problematic devices, which can't actually boot it at all? Or if there are real devices with no usable means of handling input (no FEL button and no USB host ports) in it, other than the UART serial console? I guess, support for the LRADC buttons might be needed on some HDMI equipped tablets (to handle the installation without any help from the desktop PC). If anyone wonders how this all may possibly look on a HDMI monitor, here is a picture: http://linux-sunxi.org/File:20141215-sunxi-bootsetup-prototype-hdmi-menu.jpg Regarding the Debian installer. It is just the official Debian installer, with the old 3.16 kernel (no simplefb support) and only installable with the help of an UART serial console. While the u-boot installation step can be done either with the user interface on a HDMI monitor or via the UART serial console, the Debian installer is currently only accessible on the UART serial console alone (no HDMI). This bootable SD card image just provides a bit more convenient deployment method instead of the TFTP or USB stick tricks from the https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Allwinner wiki page. This is not really much of an update. Because it is exactly the same old SD card image, only with the Debian installer hooked there. A bigger update is underway, based on u-boot v2015.04-rc2 and with more features. Hopefully it will be ready sometime next week :-) -- Best regards, Siarhei Siamashka -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: sunxi-mali and FRAMEBUFFER issues
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:08:42 +0200 Siarhei Siamashka siarhei.siamas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 09:04:48 -0800 (PST) Simo Xefil xe...@xefil.com wrote: Hello Siarhei, First of all thanks for your answer. Basically, I'm searching a way to let the drivers work properly based on the hardware performances. framebuffer is much more faster Yes, the mali framebuffer driver is roughly ~20% faster than the x11 driver, at least as measured in glmark2-es2. And the difference is even bigger than that if the system is not configured optimally. For example, the ondemand cpufreq governor interacts really bad with the X server. Also you need to get the buffers reservation right, but having the settings partially in the script.bin and partially in the command line for the sunxi-3.4 kernel does not make it particularly easy. There were attempts to ensure that the configuration is reasonable out of the box. But there was always somebody with some sort of objections. That's how democracy works. Just one week of dictatorship could have really solved a lot of issues in the sunxi-3.4 kernel :-) , so, for such devices is the best choise. Assuming that you can accept the limitations. There is no free lunch. I'm not asking the driver to handle multi-tasking. Using the 'test' program from the terminal (not within X11) I got the same results. The monitor is not refreshed after the triangle is drawn even if the program is already exited. If a program has rendered a triangle in the framebuffer, then this triangle just stays in the framebuffer. This is a perfectly obvious outcome. If you don't want to see this triangle anymore, then somebody needs to clear the framebuffer and use it for something else. Back to desktop env, programs like XBMC (A10 fork) or emulators like retroarch, compiled to use framebuffer, are working very well, expect when you exit the program. At this point, the last printed image remains on screen. The only way I've found until today is to restart lxde or switch between X11 and terminal to force a refresh. There are surely plenty of ways to clear the framebuffer. And you can also even make a copy of the old framebuffer data and restore it after the application has terminated. Everything is up to you. Or up to the developers of the framebuffer based applications. With an emulator, where I could need switch between games often, every time I quit the game, the image remains impressed and I cannot change it. I've no idea how to invent a way to force the refresh. If you have an idea I would try to investigate in that direction. I don't expect a finished solution (even it, in case, would be of course appreciated). I'd try to find/try by myself, but have no idea where to search. Any suggestion is really welcome :-) Does, for example, running cat /dev/zero /dev/fb0 help? Or create a simple wrapper shell script, which might look like: #!/bin/sh dd if=/dev/fb0 of=/tmp/fbbackup.bin run-your-cool-game-or-emulator dd if=/tmp/fbbackup.bin of=/dev/fb0 -- Best regards, Siarhei Siamashka -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[linux-sunxi] Re: sunxi otg usb code for mainline (wip) available now
Hi Hans, On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 08:25:46PM +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: I'm happy to report that after a lot of poking at the Allwinner musb code I've it working reliable in both host and peripheral mode, as well as automatically switching between the 2 depending on which cable gets plugged. My wip code is available here: https://github.com/jwrdegoede/linux-sunxi/commits/sunxi-wip Functionality wise this is complete and I expect / hope there will be no functional changes before it goes upstream. There are 2 things which need to be done before it can be submitted upstream though: 1) All the ForceVbus / ForceID stuff needs to be cleaned up 2) Currently this is not suitable for multiplatform kernels as it puts a #ifdef MACH_SUNXI in musb_regs.h, this needs to be fixed. 1) is just a matter of removing a whole lot of unnecessary indirection in the code, and giving the relevant defines better names 2) I've a plan for, I just need some time for this. I've so far only tested this on a cubietruck, I started development on a cubieboard, but the cubieboard has the Vusb hardwired to the 5V of the board (or at least mine does) meaning that the Vusb enable gpio does not do anything, and Vusb-detect always reads as 1, I think my current code may work despite this, but I need to test. Note that the dts modifications for the cubietruck / cubieboard enable the musb controller in otg mode, which means that it will not start until a gadget driver is loaded. For testing I use: insmod libcomposite.ko insmod u_serial.ko insmod usb_f_acm.ko insmod g_serial.ko After this you should see 2 messages like this: [ 3528.872816] g_serial gadget: Gadget Serial v2.4 [ 3528.877377] g_serial gadget: g_serial ready And then the controller should work either as a usb serial port (ttyGS0 on cubietruck side, ttyACM0 on pc version) or as a usb host, depending on what you plug in, and you should be able to switch on the fly. I use the following on the cubietruck side to start a getty on the usb serial, this assumes you use systemd :) systemctl start serial-getty@ttyGS0.service If you put this in say rc.local, then you can use it to get a console on a tablet over the otg connector, which is very useful for debugging stuff. Very nice, thanks! Last time I tried musb, there was some issue with the switch from host to peripheral after a random number of switches. Did you encounter such a thing during your tests? Maxime -- Maxime Ripard, Free Electrons Embedded Linux, Kernel and Android engineering http://free-electrons.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: Communication with Allwinner
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 02:21:28PM +0100, David Lanzendörfer wrote: Hi It makes business sense to be open and I think it is healthy to align with the FSF goals because it's also good for business. The field of SoC manufacturers gets somewhat saturated, and those that will get open first, will probably capture the market. I'm totally about free and open source software, I'm just not about Stallman and the FSF dictatorship about the definition of what exactly is free and what unfree. (see the public argument between him and me which was on youtube a while ago) Rest assured Allwinner is highly interested into mainlining as much of the drivers as possible since they think as well that mainlining the drivers will spare a lot of additional development efforts in the future. Also our goal is to move more towards being a community friendly manufacturer so we build an open sourced platform of which everyone can reuse design for his own projects. Hopefully that doesn't sound too assholish from me, but I had a lot of trouble with some of the people (Stallman and Luke) already which were mentioned in the last few emails... That's amazing. It's like these last three years just melted away now. Oh wait. I do not know what grass you smoke or what fun events happened when you visited allwinner, but all i see you do now is grandstanding about how things will be soo great in future. All you do is talk, talk, talk, and i see no actions. And now you even are going down the route of eroding away at Allwinners legal requirements, especially those which cost time and money to fix, two things Allwinner clearly still is not willing to invest. On top of that, you have started to badmouth people who have actually done stuff in their lifetimes. What gives you that right? And what's next on this path? Why don't you just shut up, completely, until you actually have something worth talking about. Say, after you produced code and/or datasheets. Luc Verhaegen. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Communication with Allwinner
Op 17 feb. 2015, om 15:34 heeft Luc Verhaegen l...@skynet.be het volgende geschreven: On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 02:21:28PM +0100, David Lanzendörfer wrote: Hi It makes business sense to be open and I think it is healthy to align with the FSF goals because it's also good for business. The field of SoC manufacturers gets somewhat saturated, and those that will get open first, will probably capture the market. I'm totally about free and open source software, I'm just not about Stallman and the FSF dictatorship about the definition of what exactly is free and what unfree. (see the public argument between him and me which was on youtube a while ago) Rest assured Allwinner is highly interested into mainlining as much of the drivers as possible since they think as well that mainlining the drivers will spare a lot of additional development efforts in the future. Also our goal is to move more towards being a community friendly manufacturer so we build an open sourced platform of which everyone can reuse design for his own projects. Hopefully that doesn't sound too assholish from me, but I had a lot of trouble with some of the people (Stallman and Luke) already which were mentioned in the last few emails... That's amazing. It's like these last three years just melted away now. Oh wait. I do not know what grass you smoke or what fun events happened when you visited allwinner, but all i see you do now is grandstanding about how things will be soo great in future. All you do is talk, talk, talk, and i see no actions. And now you even are going down the route of eroding away at Allwinners legal requirements, especially those which cost time and money to fix, two things Allwinner clearly still is not willing to invest. On top of that, you have started to badmouth people who have actually done stuff in their lifetimes. What gives you that right? And what's next on this path? Why don't you just shut up, completely, until you actually have something worth talking about. Say, after you produced code and/or datasheets. How's that DRM driver doing, any code yet? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: Communication with Allwinner
Hi It makes business sense to be open and I think it is healthy to align with the FSF goals because it's also good for business. The field of SoC manufacturers gets somewhat saturated, and those that will get open first, will probably capture the market. I'm totally about free and open source software, I'm just not about Stallman and the FSF dictatorship about the definition of what exactly is free and what unfree. (see the public argument between him and me which was on youtube a while ago) Rest assured Allwinner is highly interested into mainlining as much of the drivers as possible since they think as well that mainlining the drivers will spare a lot of additional development efforts in the future. Also our goal is to move more towards being a community friendly manufacturer so we build an open sourced platform of which everyone can reuse design for his own projects. Hopefully that doesn't sound too assholish from me, but I had a lot of trouble with some of the people (Stallman and Luke) already which were mentioned in the last few emails... All the best -- David Lanzendörfer OpenSourceSupport GmbH System engineer and supporter http://www.o2s.ch/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Communication with Allwinner
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 03:46:34PM +0100, Koen Kooi wrote: How's that DRM driver doing, any code yet? At some point. But at least i am not the one whining about it all the time. I will make noise when it's there. Luc Verhaegen. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: Communication with Allwinner
Hi, On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:00:27 +0200 Simos Xenitellis simos.li...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi David, Thanks for doing this and taking things forward! On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 9:54 PM, David Lanzendörfer david.lanzendoer...@o2s.ch wrote: Hi Javqui is not referring to the GPU but the VPU (Video). CedarX. MPEG-1/2, H.264, DivX, etc. Besides the opened part from PowerVR is sadly one of their publication stunts. http://libv.livejournal.com/. And when the PR department gets confronted with their own BS, they give you the silence treatment The only one thing I can say is PowerVR is poison. They don't even bow to Intel, Search for Poulsbo. I know it very well since I already have run Linux on Intel Atom CloverTrail platform and on BayTrail. At http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg4Mjg it mentions that Intel is doing Linux work on the PowerVR VXD392 VPU (as is used on Baytrail). Is the VPU similar to what exists on the A80? What is a VPU?, wikipedia says that a VPU is another term for GPU. And at the end this is huge confusion, that make people believe that for have hardware accelerated video playback is a requirement to have and use the GPU. This is wrong, it come from the fact that in the PC(x86) world are used graphic cards that are actually are (gpu + display engine + video codec engine), so this is 3 kind of difference hardware types put together in this some called graphic card. As this graphic card is one identity, it is usually all handled by the same software driver. In ARM case this is not the case, http://www.cnx-software.com/2013/12/10/most-embedded-gpus-do-not-support-hardware-video-decoding-acceleration-the-vpu-does/ Please lets use a more correct term, that creates no ambiguity of what we are speaking about. Video Codec Engine, is the correct name for this type hardware in the sunxi(allwinner) case. This is the hardware to use for decoding and encoding of video codecs. And in sunxi, sometimes called also cedar engine and it is the *same* Video Codec Engine in all allwinner socs. A10/A10s/A13/A20/A23/A31/A31s/A33/A80/A80T/A83T/H3/H8 (with some minor and or new feature hardware versions) How do i know? From the kernel source code make available from allwinner. To the best of what could be found, this Video Codec Engine is a custom design made by www.chipsbank.com for allwinner. And this makes believe that is allwinner propriety and only used in allwinner socs. Regarding the older SoCs in the A series, it is important to have a view whether there will be effort to support the VPU on Linux. Did you already hear of libvdpau-sunxi? do you know what it is? It is 100% open source, vdpau driver for this video codec engine by the means of reverse engineering. http://linux-sunxi.org/Cedrus http://linux-sunxi.org/CedarX/Reverse_Engineering Of course the work is not ended, this is only a workaround and the plans to move and to make a proper driver that has the chances to be mainlined is here: http://linux-sunxi.org/VE_Planning I have the impression that it would greatly benefit boards like the Banana Pi, the OLinuXinos, the Cubieboards, etc. I agree, but where is the support? The support to the people that are working to make possible to have a proper mainlined driver for this video codec engine. So open GPU Drivers for A80, is not going to happen. It didn't happen for Intel Atom, it didn't happen when the FSF made it a priority project. Besides the A80 will not exist long enough. The A64 might have the same GPU as well... So it's not about making an A80 specific driver but a generic control for Rogue. Besides. Poulsbo at least initializes with linux-next. If Allwinner is interested in FOSS gpu drivers, which they should be, they'd better support the Lima, Etnaviv, etc. projects. It doesn't support 4K high resolution video... It doesn't crash on regular basis either though. But the regular Mali just doesn't provide enough performance for these high end purpose this A64/A80 is intended for... I think at some point of time Allwinner will accomplish what FSF ist just talking about, just because Allwinner wants to have more spare time by streaming up as many drivers as possible -_- It makes business sense to be open and I think it is healthy to align with the FSF goals because it's also good for business. The field of SoC manufacturers gets somewhat saturated, and those that will get open first, will probably capture the market. Simos -- thanks for reading. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: Communication with Allwinner
On 17 February 2015 at 11:00, Simos Xenitellis simos.li...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi David, Thanks for doing this and taking things forward! On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 9:54 PM, David Lanzendörfer david.lanzendoer...@o2s.ch wrote: Hi Javqui is not referring to the GPU but the VPU (Video). CedarX. MPEG-1/2, H.264, DivX, etc. Besides the opened part from PowerVR is sadly one of their publication stunts. http://libv.livejournal.com/. And when the PR department gets confronted with their own BS, they give you the silence treatment The only one thing I can say is PowerVR is poison. They don't even bow to Intel, Search for Poulsbo. I know it very well since I already have run Linux on Intel Atom CloverTrail platform and on BayTrail. At http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg4Mjg it mentions that Intel is doing Linux work on the PowerVR VXD392 VPU (as is used on Baytrail). Is the VPU similar to what exists on the A80? PVR is a GPU. A80 uses a different model of PVR GPU. That means that the work done by Intel might be usable to some extent. However, the PVR closed drivers provided so far are unstable leading to system crashes. It is unknown if the issue is in software or if the hardware is so buggy that a stable driver is not feasible. Regarding the older SoCs in the A series, it is important to have a view whether there will be effort to support the VPU on Linux. I have the impression that it would greatly benefit boards like the Banana Pi, the OLinuXinos, the Cubieboards, etc. There is some effort to make opensource Mali GPU drivers by the Lima project. There is no usable code, however. On Allwinner hardware this is hindered by lack of KMS driver but Exynos which uses same GPU core has something that looks like KMS driver by now. Thanks Michal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [linux-sunxi] Re: Communication with Allwinner
Hi David, Thanks for doing this and taking things forward! On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 9:54 PM, David Lanzendörfer david.lanzendoer...@o2s.ch wrote: Hi Javqui is not referring to the GPU but the VPU (Video). CedarX. MPEG-1/2, H.264, DivX, etc. Besides the opened part from PowerVR is sadly one of their publication stunts. http://libv.livejournal.com/. And when the PR department gets confronted with their own BS, they give you the silence treatment The only one thing I can say is PowerVR is poison. They don't even bow to Intel, Search for Poulsbo. I know it very well since I already have run Linux on Intel Atom CloverTrail platform and on BayTrail. At http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg4Mjg it mentions that Intel is doing Linux work on the PowerVR VXD392 VPU (as is used on Baytrail). Is the VPU similar to what exists on the A80? Regarding the older SoCs in the A series, it is important to have a view whether there will be effort to support the VPU on Linux. I have the impression that it would greatly benefit boards like the Banana Pi, the OLinuXinos, the Cubieboards, etc. So open GPU Drivers for A80, is not going to happen. It didn't happen for Intel Atom, it didn't happen when the FSF made it a priority project. Besides the A80 will not exist long enough. The A64 might have the same GPU as well... So it's not about making an A80 specific driver but a generic control for Rogue. Besides. Poulsbo at least initializes with linux-next. If Allwinner is interested in FOSS gpu drivers, which they should be, they'd better support the Lima, Etnaviv, etc. projects. It doesn't support 4K high resolution video... It doesn't crash on regular basis either though. But the regular Mali just doesn't provide enough performance for these high end purpose this A64/A80 is intended for... I think at some point of time Allwinner will accomplish what FSF ist just talking about, just because Allwinner wants to have more spare time by streaming up as many drivers as possible -_- It makes business sense to be open and I think it is healthy to align with the FSF goals because it's also good for business. The field of SoC manufacturers gets somewhat saturated, and those that will get open first, will probably capture the market. Simos -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups linux-sunxi group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to linux-sunxi+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
