Re: booting other oses
* Jakob Praher [EMAIL PROTECTED] [040825 09:31]: how/where does linuxbios do the loading of other oses? LinuxBIOS can load an arbitrary static ELF binary from flash or disk. linuxbios loads the linux kernel from the flashrom, which then it is in real mode imho. It can also load a bootloader from flash, like etherboot, filo or start openbios. This is all in protected mode though. Real mode is gone for good 17 instructions after power-on for instance how would linuxbios boot into for instance grub or lilo? grub and lilo both don't work in LinuxBIOS since they are using PCBIOS 16bit callbacks (interrupts) for IO. If you want to use those anyways, have a look at ADLO (See mailing list archive for above phrases ;) Stefan ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
hi Stefan, thanks für the info. I have included some additional questions. but lets summarize what I think I know: linuxbios is a bootstrapper thats able to load a linux kernel/elf binary from within a flash rom/file/...? or is linuxbios itself a linux kernel that is able to execute another elf binary? if the first option is true, it would probably need hardware access code for accessing ide/scsi disks without the 16bit callbacks (INT13 and friends) Am Mit, den 25.08.2004 schrieb Stefan Reinauer um 11:26: * Jakob Praher [EMAIL PROTECTED] [040825 09:31]: how/where does linuxbios do the loading of other oses? LinuxBIOS can load an arbitrary static ELF binary from flash or disk. how do you then be able to load ntldr or something like that? afaik ntldr is no elf executable it is either a COFF/PE or it is a DOS exe ... linuxbios loads the linux kernel from the flashrom, which then it is in real mode imho. It can also load a bootloader from flash, like etherboot, filo or start openbios. This is all in protected mode though. Real mode is gone for good 17 instructions after power-on thats good to know. for instance how would linuxbios boot into for instance grub or lilo? grub and lilo both don't work in LinuxBIOS since they are using PCBIOS 16bit callbacks (interrupts) for IO. If you want to use those anyways, have a look at ADLO I understand. so what is the preferred boot loader with linuxbios? (See mailing list archive for above phrases ;) hehe. -- Jakob ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
Hi Stefan, What is your goal to want to use Linux bios? If your goal is to get It to load a Linux kernel, then try etherboot. There is also etherboot With filo. Etherboot will provide an elf file for you that is network Card aware and also has support for ide hd access. There is also a flavor Of etherboot that has filo support in it. Filo gives the ability to load Off of a usb stick. Knowing this you can use the net, ide drive or usb stick To load your os. Gotta love it;) Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jakob Praher Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:50 AM To: linuxbios Subject: Re: booting other oses hi Stefan, thanks für the info. I have included some additional questions. but lets summarize what I think I know: linuxbios is a bootstrapper thats able to load a linux kernel/elf binary from within a flash rom/file/...? or is linuxbios itself a linux kernel that is able to execute another elf binary? if the first option is true, it would probably need hardware access code for accessing ide/scsi disks without the 16bit callbacks (INT13 and friends) Am Mit, den 25.08.2004 schrieb Stefan Reinauer um 11:26: * Jakob Praher [EMAIL PROTECTED] [040825 09:31]: how/where does linuxbios do the loading of other oses? LinuxBIOS can load an arbitrary static ELF binary from flash or disk. how do you then be able to load ntldr or something like that? afaik ntldr is no elf executable it is either a COFF/PE or it is a DOS exe ... linuxbios loads the linux kernel from the flashrom, which then it is in real mode imho. It can also load a bootloader from flash, like etherboot, filo or start openbios. This is all in protected mode though. Real mode is gone for good 17 instructions after power-on thats good to know. for instance how would linuxbios boot into for instance grub or lilo? grub and lilo both don't work in LinuxBIOS since they are using PCBIOS 16bit callbacks (interrupts) for IO. If you want to use those anyways, have a look at ADLO I understand. so what is the preferred boot loader with linuxbios? (See mailing list archive for above phrases ;) hehe. -- Jakob ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Jakob Praher wrote: linuxbios loads the linux kernel from the flashrom, which then it is in real mode imho. ah, no, it is not. it is in 32-bit mode in linuxbios, and 32-bit paged mode in kernel. so does it use lobos/two kernel monte or something other way to load another app? app == kernel right? for instance how would linuxbios boot into for instance grub or lilo? it won't because grub and lilo need bios callbacks that linuxbios does not provide. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Dave Aubin wrote: What is your goal to want to use Linux bios? If your goal is to get It to load a Linux kernel, then try etherboot. goodness, this question takes us back to our roots. The fact is, the linux kernel is just about the best thing you can use to boot another kernel! Dave, think about this: are you planning to write etherboot drivers for myrinet, quadrics, infiniband, SCI, or other new networks? How about all those ugly, complicated SCSI disk systems? If yes, you're nuts and you are going to duplicate a lot of work that Linux does better. If no, then etherboot can't even be used on our 1024-node Pink cluster (which has no Ethernet, only myrinet). Another weird thing we've found: Linux, on faster machines with lots of network interfaces in them, boots nodes faster than etherboot! weird but true. I think you are not looking at a big enough picture. Etherboot is fine for a lot of cases, but if you can put Linux in flash, it's a LOT better, and as the processors get faster, Linux is faster too. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
Ron, So any instructions to use kernel in flash. 1. I guess use filo to load the elf ( the elf will be in flash, and filo will be in the ROM) 2. the elf is made by mkelfImage from Kernel and ramdisk. How can the kernel load another kerkel, via beoboot Regards YH -Original Message- From: ron minnich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 7:32 AM To: Dave Aubin Cc: Jakob Praher; linuxbios Subject: RE: booting other oses On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Dave Aubin wrote: What is your goal to want to use Linux bios? If your goal is to get It to load a Linux kernel, then try etherboot. goodness, this question takes us back to our roots. The fact is, the linux kernel is just about the best thing you can use to boot another kernel! Dave, think about this: are you planning to write etherboot drivers for myrinet, quadrics, infiniband, SCI, or other new networks? How about all those ugly, complicated SCSI disk systems? If yes, you're nuts and you are going to duplicate a lot of work that Linux does better. If no, then etherboot can't even be used on our 1024-node Pink cluster (which has no Ethernet, only myrinet). Another weird thing we've found: Linux, on faster machines with lots of network interfaces in them, boots nodes faster than etherboot! weird but true. I think you are not looking at a big enough picture. Etherboot is fine for a lot of cases, but if you can put Linux in flash, it's a LOT better, and as the processors get faster, Linux is faster too. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, YhLu wrote: 1. I guess use filo to load the elf ( the elf will be in flash, and filo will be in the ROM) or if you have a big flash just put the kernel in flash. We do this on some of our K8 systems here. much easier than fooling with filo or etherboot How can the kernel load another kerkel, via beoboot if you have a new enough kernel, and kexec is in there, I would use that. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, YhLu wrote: 1. I guess use filo to load the elf ( the elf will be in flash, and filo will be in the ROM) oh yeah ... 1 MB is plenty big enough for even 2.6 kernel + initrd ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
You mean put the kernel and initrd in the ROM (8Mbit) ? So can spare the flash? Regards YH -Original Message- From: ron minnich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:40 AM To: YhLu Cc: Dave Aubin; Jakob Praher; linuxbios Subject: RE: booting other oses On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, YhLu wrote: 1. I guess use filo to load the elf ( the elf will be in flash, and filo will be in the ROM) oh yeah ... 1 MB is plenty big enough for even 2.6 kernel + initrd ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, YhLu wrote: You mean put the kernel and initrd in the ROM (8Mbit) ? So can spare the flash? No, I have a 1 Mbyte flash on the board. I put linuxbios in the top 64K, and a kernel and initrd in the bottom (1MB-64K). The kernel and initrd are munged together with mkelfimage. Voila ... kernel boots in seconds. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
It should be Flash Rom? That's very interesting. Can you let me know how to build such small kernel and initrd? Regards YH -Original Message- From: ron minnich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:55 AM To: YhLu Cc: Dave Aubin; Jakob Praher; linuxbios Subject: RE: booting other oses On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, YhLu wrote: You mean put the kernel and initrd in the ROM (8Mbit) ? So can spare the flash? No, I have a 1 Mbyte flash on the board. I put linuxbios in the top 64K, and a kernel and initrd in the bottom (1MB-64K). The kernel and initrd are munged together with mkelfimage. Voila ... kernel boots in seconds. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
YhLu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You mean put the kernel and initrd in the ROM (8Mbit) ? So can spare the flash? Yes. You might want to dig up the linux-tiny which helps shrink the kernel even more but it is doable. The primary reason for working with etherboot is the prevalance of 2Mbit BIOS chips. At 4Mbit, the linux kernel becomes an option. And at 8Mbit the amount of work to squeeze a kernel and initrd into it is getting reasonable. I need to talk to Erik Henderson but hopefully he can be convinced to switch the next version of beoboot to use kexec. Two kernel monte is the same principle just older code. The kexec interface is in the stable kernel now, and the actual implementation is in 2.6.8.1-mm4. Eric ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
ron minnich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Dave Aubin wrote: What is your goal to want to use Linux bios? If your goal is to get It to load a Linux kernel, then try etherboot. goodness, this question takes us back to our roots. The fact is, the linux kernel is just about the best thing you can use to boot another kernel! Dave, think about this: are you planning to write etherboot drivers for myrinet, quadrics, infiniband, SCI, or other new networks? How about all those ugly, complicated SCSI disk systems? If yes, you're nuts and you are going to duplicate a lot of work that Linux does better. If no, then etherboot can't even be used on our 1024-node Pink cluster (which has no Ethernet, only myrinet). The problem is of course fitting a Linux kernel into flash. That is usually more work than just writing an etherboot driver. I think you are not looking at a big enough picture. Etherboot is fine for a lot of cases, but if you can put Linux in flash, it's a LOT better, and as the processors get faster, Linux is faster too. Long term Linux is certainly the way to go. Short term etherboot and filo work today and on systems with small flash chips. We are getting closer to the point where we can switch over but it is still going to be a little longer. Eric ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
RE: booting other oses
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, YhLu wrote: That's very interesting. Can you let me know how to build such small kernel and initrd? I have to find my configuration, but for our net boot it is simply configuring a minimal kernel for networking and tcp, + the inird. ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
On 25 Aug 2004, Eric W. Biederman wrote: The kexec interface is in the stable kernel now, and the actual implementation is in 2.6.8.1-mm4. good news! we'd like to get out of that business of maintaining our own type of kexec :-) ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
On 25 Aug 2004, Eric W. Biederman wrote: Long term Linux is certainly the way to go. Short term etherboot and filo work today and on systems with small flash chips. We are getting closer to the point where we can switch over but it is still going to be a little longer. of course, here is where EFI is our friend, as it is forcing board vendors to put on really big flash. Then we can reflash linuxbios over top of EFI :-) ron ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
Re: booting other oses
ron minnich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 25 Aug 2004, Eric W. Biederman wrote: The kexec interface is in the stable kernel now, and the actual implementation is in 2.6.8.1-mm4. good news! we'd like to get out of that business of maintaining our own type of kexec :-) Oh, and I should mention there is i386, x86_64, and ppc support in that bundle. Eric ___ Linuxbios mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
