Re: Lisa Disk Drive (Working !!!)

2006-02-28 Thread macmoni

Hi Jerome,

check the October 2005 postings in LisaList and use the search or 
filter option with profile


greetings TOM from Bavaria


Am 28.02.2006 um 10:11 schrieb Jérôme VERNET:

Is there a complete LisaList archive ? The only I found is incomplete 
(maclaunch).


Jerome



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Re: Free IBM AT

2006-02-28 Thread Shirl

Chris,

 Then there was the
 68000 based lab computer (O so you didn't know IBM
 used the 68k!). Also about 10 grand IIRC.

You are referring to the IBM PC/9000 system.

BYTE magazine had a very good article about this long ago, mid 1980s I
believe. Seemed like a very good machine but with a very focused audience,
i.e. scientists.

I assume IBM used the 68000 CPU for this machine as a research project so it
would better understand this CPU's capabilities.

- David Craig

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From: Chris M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com
Subject: Re: Free IBM AT
Date: Tue, Feb 28, 2006, 6:30 PM


  I think the main thing was the price. IBM had a
 couple of debacles in it's time too. I picked up,
 which required considerable effort, a System
 23/Datamaster recently. Released almost simultaneously
 with the PC. Cost about 10 grand. Then there was the
 68000 based lab computer (O so you didn't know IBM
 used the 68k!). Also about 10 grand IIRC.

 --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  It just makes it sad to
 contemplate what the platform
 could have become, had it been extended.


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computer video (was Re: Free IBM AT)

2006-02-28 Thread Ray Arachelian

Chris M wrote:


But Apple made a mistake with
the Mac by not supplying a distinct video ic, allowing
the 68k to do all the work, and therefore was lacking
in speed.



That's not quite true.  Both the original Mac and the Lisa shared memory 
access with the video hardware.  The video hardware was actually much 
simpler than what most computers used a dedicated display chip for.  It 
was basically a nothing more than a shift register that walked memory 
and spat out video signals. 

Half the time the CPU had access to the memory bus, the other half the 
video system.


Other contemporaries of the time may have used a dedicated IC to do the 
video, *BUT* in most cases, these also shared access to memory with the 
CPU.  So it was no better.  Infact, they were more complex because they 
were text mode (40x25 or 80x25) and needed a character generator ROM.  
The video IC would read a byte from main memory, then turn around an 
read the bitmaps for that character from a ROM and display that.


I remember there were various tricks done to get various styles 
displayed too.  For the Commodore line, there were several bitmaps (aka 
fonts today) that implemented primitive graphics.  The high bit (128) 
was used to invert the bitmap, so the scheme to display the cursor was 
to use XOR 128 on and off every second to flash the character.  There 
was a patent for this simple scheme.  Other displays used another chunk 
of memory that mapped along with the text to implement attributes such 
as underline, flash, inverse, and another set for color.


Things like the VIC20 and Commodore 64 had some dedicated hardware to do 
sprites and such, it's true, but for normal operations, it wasn't too 
much better what the Mac/Lisa had.  There were of course vector systems 
out there, but these were mostly for games and worked in a totally 
different way than raster displays like om the Mac, Lisa, Commodore's, 
and PC's. 

Even so, they generally had to share the memory with the CPU, so there 
was a slowdown due to that.  This can be exposed on the Commodore 128 by 
going into FAST mode which ran at 2Mhz instead of the usual 1Mhz.  The 
40column display would be shut off.  (The 80 column one which ran off a 
chip similar to the CGA controller still worked.)  Even the lowly 
TS/1000 had a fast mode that disabled the video because it too shared 
it's small memory with the video system.



I don't recall whether you had to do special stuff to access IBM PC's 
video memory on the CGA cards, perhaps it was accessible in memory 
though the video ram as it lived on the ISA card, but I do recall it 
displaying snow if you directly wrote to the video memory and didn't use 
the INT21 routines in the BIOS.  Lots of program wrote directly to the 
screen for speed, but had to do so in the vertical retrace.  (The BIOS 
routines were very slow.)



The Lisa ran at 5MHz even though the 68000 was an 8MHz cpu due to the 
video circuitry needing access to memory.  I'm not sure how they fixed 
this for the original Mac.  Perhaps faster RAM, or more likely the 
smaller screen real estate did the trick.  In some ways, if you look at 
the Mac and the Lisa, the Lisa actually had something like 5 CPU's 
(68000, 6504, COPS, COPS in keyboard, and an optional AMD/TI FPU for the 
early I/O boards, and a Z8 in the Profile/Widget).The Mac had to 
rely entirely on the 68000.


They could have added one more CPU just to do graphics, but, that would 
have added a lot more expense and complexity.  Besides, in that sort of 
system, whenever the main CPU would need to transfer a big chunk of data 
to the graphics controller instead of just instructions that say, draw a 
line from this point to that point in this color, there would be a 
bottle neck there.


Also, back then having a dedicated video processor didn't mean you could 
do graphics primitives with it.  i.e. the chips did not have the silicon 
to draw lines, boxes, in hires bit mapped display modes.  Rather the 
CPU had to do that work and there were various algorithms for it.  
QuickDraw just happened to be a better implementation that all of those. :-)


I'm not sure many computers had video chips that could offload graphics 
work from the main CPU at that stage (i.e. hardware accelerated 
graphics), except maybe perhaps for the Amiga, but that came later on.  
Most were just good old fashioned frame buffers in bit mapped mode, and 
character generator based displays.


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