Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Walter Parker 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Peder Rovelstad 
wrote:

> > That is an urban legend. One of original developers of ZFS was
> > interviewed
>
> OK, then.  Not my data.  Best of luck.
>
> I've had other ZFS servers without ECC that have run successfully for
several years. I know the risks and issues. While, yes, servers should run
with ECC, the idea that that that ZFS requires ECC appears to a scare story
to get people to buy ECC hardware. From my research over the last 10 years,
I would say that 98% of the people sharing this information are passing on
a scary story that someone else told them. This is a like the urban legends
that we used to tell around the camp fire. Note, urban legends still get
told and believed. You heard the one about flashing headlights, some people
still tell and believe that story today.

The closest I've seen to a reason for why it matters to ZFS is that it is
one of the few file systems that can actually tell you when your data is
corrupt before as well as after the fact. It solves many data issues and
people seem to have taken that and require that the rest of the system be
as robust as ZFS. When asked to present actual/real data as to why someone
should use UFS instead of ZFS on a non-ECC system, I notice that the
conversation changes from file systems to don't store data on systems that
don't use ECC. Can anyone show why my solution should switch file systems
(given that I'm keeping my existing hardware) without changing the subject?
I've read many of the scare stories from FreeNAS and they all seem to end
up as a call to authority or a "fine, risk your data" without actually
answering the question.

Does any make a standalone pfSense compatible router that is low power and
not expensive [<$300] with enough ECC [or any ECC] memory?

What would you do on a home budget to get multiple local backups of a
multi-TB file server if you didn't have deep corporate pockets?

I have the Netgate router, it is a real nice box. I don't see why using ZFS
on it in addition to the other systems I have should be an issue, but there
seem to be lots of cooks in the kitchen giving advice without sampling the
product or explaining how they know there is a problem.


Walter




> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
>



-- 
The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.   -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis
___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Peder Rovelstad 
> That is an urban legend. One of original developers of ZFS was 
> interviewed

OK, then.  Not my data.  Best of luck.

___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Vick Khera 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:04 PM, Walter Parker  wrote:

> without ECC. If there is a time bomb, then it exists for all file systems
> running on computers without ECC. As this one of multiple backups for the
> system, the risks are acceptable.
>
> If you have an actual failure method that makes ZFS worse, I'd love to see
> the details. Then I could publish a paper and be "Internet famous.


Yes, this is true. However, other file systems do not offer *any* hint of
telling you when your data is corrupt on the platter like ZFS will. So if
you know you don't have ECC protection, then you should not expect your
data to be protected end to end. If you have ECC and a "regular" file
system, the same is true. You just never know.
___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Walter Parker 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Peder Rovelstad 
wrote:

> OH, and w/o ECC memory, it's a time bomb.
>
> That is an urban legend. One of original developers of ZFS was interviewed
and asked about the "Scrub of Death", he said that ZFS doesn't fail in that
way. ZFS is no worse than any other file system when running on a system
without ECC. If there is a time bomb, then it exists for all file systems
running on computers without ECC. As this one of multiple backups for the
system, the risks are acceptable.

If you have an actual failure method that makes ZFS worse, I'd love to see
the details. Then I could publish a paper and be "Internet famous."


Walter



> -Original Message-
> From: List [mailto:list-boun...@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Peder
> Rovelstad
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 9:33 AM
> To: 'pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List' 
> Subject: Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2
>
> Oh, for certain.  Lz4 compression is certainly stressful enough (too much
> actually) for as low power a device as a SG-2220.
>
> Only posting to fan the flames!  :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: List [mailto:list-boun...@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Vick Khera
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 8:57 AM
> To: pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Peder Rovelstad 
> wrote:
>
> > Here's a ZFS tuning guide if you have not seen.
> > https://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide
> >
> > But only goes to v9.
> >
>
> You 100% do not want nor need to turn on de-dupe. Especially on a boot
> volume of pfSense.
> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
>
> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
>
> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
>



-- 
The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.   -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis
___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Peder Rovelstad 
OH, and w/o ECC memory, it's a time bomb.

-Original Message-
From: List [mailto:list-boun...@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Peder
Rovelstad
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 9:33 AM
To: 'pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List' 
Subject: Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

Oh, for certain.  Lz4 compression is certainly stressful enough (too much
actually) for as low power a device as a SG-2220.

Only posting to fan the flames!  :)

-Original Message-
From: List [mailto:list-boun...@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Vick Khera
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 8:57 AM
To: pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Peder Rovelstad 
wrote:

> Here's a ZFS tuning guide if you have not seen.
> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide
>
> But only goes to v9.
>

You 100% do not want nor need to turn on de-dupe. Especially on a boot
volume of pfSense.
___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Peder Rovelstad 
Oh, for certain.  Lz4 compression is certainly stressful enough (too much
actually) for as low power a device as a SG-2220.

Only posting to fan the flames!  :)

-Original Message-
From: List [mailto:list-boun...@lists.pfsense.org] On Behalf Of Vick Khera
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 8:57 AM
To: pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Peder Rovelstad 
wrote:

> Here's a ZFS tuning guide if you have not seen.
> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide
>
> But only goes to v9.
>

You 100% do not want nor need to turn on de-dupe. Especially on a boot
volume of pfSense.
___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

Re: [pfSense] ZFS on 2.4.2

2018-03-07 Thread Vick Khera 
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Peder Rovelstad 
wrote:

> Here's a ZFS tuning guide if you have not seen.
> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide
>
> But only goes to v9.
>

You 100% do not want nor need to turn on de-dupe. Especially on a boot
volume of pfSense.
___
pfSense mailing list
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold