[WSG] "Tables - you can still use them in web design" article
I know there are plenty of these articles but unfortunately I got drawn into this one (possibly as it was in my Netregistry newsletter!): -- http://www.netregistry.com.au/news/articles/79/1 "Scarcely a week goes by without a post in a web design forum somewhere on the lines of .."how do I do this in css" or "..how do I replace this table with css". CSS purists all over the web have been promoting the idea that tables are bad for so long now that some people think they're breaking the law or worse if they use a tag in their website. Well, I've got news for them - you are still allowed to use tables!" -- The fact that I do not spend my time preaching some kind of righteous path is probably the reason why it irritates me when I see an article like this that is simply informing poorly. I attempted to comment on it but the comment submission mangled my paragraphs so for the record it should be more like this: -- "I fully agree that there are people who get confused as to whether tables are "allowed" in CSS driven web development. Even though the same answer has been repeated many times, I even see people asking how to display tabular data without using tables! This suggests that either the messages coming from CSS "purists" (not a term that I like particularly) are being misinterpreted or that some designer/developers are not taking the time to properly understand HTML and CSS. I think your article aims to give some perspective on the issue however I find it a bit dissatisfying. A look at the actual HTML specs (I choose HTML 4.01) gives a simple enough explanation for anyone: "The HTML table model allows authors to arrange data -- text, preformatted text, images, links, forms, form fields, other tables, etc. -- into rows and columns of cells." "Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables." http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html You say: "Tabular data is surely data in which there is a unique relationship between one set of data and another e.g. all the data on one row refers to a particular product." You are not giving a clear explanation here as you seem to ignore the columns which are the key element of tables. In simple terms; if you need to look across and down or vice-versa then you have tabular data. So in your example "data might be something like a product picture, description, price" then yes you could display the product list as a table with each row being a specific product/item and the columns being description, price, etc. You are also not mentioning the semantic purpose of HTML. Using a table is marking up the data in a way that says "this is tabular information" in just the same way that the p and h1/2/3/etc tags are saying this is a paragraph and these are headers respectively. In using a table for layout you are, in effect, saying this leftcolumn, centrecolumn, rightcolumn are a row of data with a "unique relationship" of which each column is a specific attribute of that data. In reality these columns will contain all kinds of content from navigation to articles to featured content which even though they exist in the same row bear no relation to one another at all. I will not even bother to go into what relevance this has with regards to accessibility for small screens, screen readers, etc. Now I'm not an academic developer/designer, I generally work for small businesses for whom most of the above is entirely academic. However they are employing and trusting me to make those kind of decisions for them. If you are only just making a transition from table based development to CSS based development then my advice would be to do what is appropriate for your skill level, timeframe and confidence. The point is not to say "the world is full of things which were originally designed for one purpose, but which people found could be used for an entirely different purpose." but to aim to learn and use the most appropriate tools for the application." -- Actually my comment is more of an article in itself! Anyway, if others on the list wish to comment on the article please do. Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on
Re: [WSG] Opinion on colors
any chance of a bit more colour??it just looks a bit bland to me.I like the style and layout thoOn 5/12/06, Minh D. Tran < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi, My personal website at www.m-tran.net was getting boring so I decided to mock up a new layout and wanted to get your opinion on it (colors, flow, layout, etc.). The new design is located http://web01.ipowerweb.com/~mdtdesig/new/ . Any feedbacks (positive or negative is more than welcome. Thanks, Minh Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -- GermWorkshttp://www.germworks.nethttp://germworks.blogspot.com/ http://www.germworks.net/Phantom
Re: [WSG] CSS problem
JohnGiven your fluid layout, the only way to stop the input boxes breaking out is to give them a relative width (ie relative to their container)input: { width: 85%;} works in FF on a PC--
Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com
[WSG] Opinion on colors
Hi, My personal website at www.m-tran.net was getting boring so I decided to mock up a new layout and wanted to get your opinion on it (colors, flow, layout, etc.). The new design is located http://web01.ipowerweb.com/~mdtdesig/new/ . Any feedbacks (positive or negative is more than welcome. Thanks, Minh Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
[WSG] Website Development And Authoring Tools Information Wanted
Hi. next semester looking to do the diploma of systems administration and website development. now was wondering, what accessable web site design and web authoring tools, do you recommend, that i use, that will work with jaws? for my web design and web admin course using text pad, for hand coding all my pages, and did use Microsoft FrontPage 2000, yuck! and now could not use Macromedia Studio, because did not have access to it. now if any really good web site and systems admin gurus, on the list, can let me know what good web site development and web authoring tools, that will work with jaws, let me know. also, for the web admin, use a tool called easy php,that worked well with php and my sql, the web interfaces. so if any one has got any good suggestions, sites, links, where i can find the correct info, then pass it on to my lecturers, at my college, let me know. and will be using webct, to do it online. cheers Marvin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] CSS problem
I do not know what am I doing wrong, but the input boxes in the fieldsets on our page "Training Academy" and "Newsletter" in a certain screen size break out. Can someone give me a hand? Thanks in advance, John -- John S. Britsios Web Architect & Marketing Consultant Webnauts Net (Main Office) Koblenzer Str. 37A D-33613 Bielefeld Webnauts Net (U.S. Office) 5 Ivanhoe Drive Urbana IL 61802 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web address: http://www.webnauts.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] IE Hellp take 2
This is a valid page now: http://golfgods.staging.netconcepts.com/item/11_06WCLCT.html#buyguide (username: golfgods password: F0ur) The problem still exists...infact its gotten worse...as you can see its now not only the accessories tab, but the buying guide tab too. It looks like it could be that comment bug...but there are no HTML comments so its not. Please, please any ideas would be great! Thanks again, Darren ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Thank you for your email. I will be out of the office from 3pm Thursday 11 May and on Friday 12 May. If you have an urgent enquiry please contact Darren Osborne or Yana Del Valle. Regards, Lisa Howdin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] styleswitcher
On 11/05/06, 1802 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: http://www.adtweb.it/beta/home.html 1. In the right of the site, there is a Orange: clik on this, a js load the "alt" css (1802b.css). On my actual site(try to clik on "Style" in the left http://homepage.mac.com/matteo.discardi/home.html), this js works fine and the new style remains in all page: in this new version, every new page reload the first css (1802a.css). Why? Having a quick look, I would say it is because the cookie where the style preferance is saved, is not been read. This is likely to be caused by 2 functions been attached to the windows's onload event. The second function [in blank.js] is cancelling out the first - which reads the cookie and restores the users last choosen stylesheet. I suggest using one of the many "add load listener" or "schedule" type scripts which are common across the net (Google it) to tirgger multiple functions once the window or required object has loaded. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target attribute - coming or going?
Since the target attribute is a no no, I made this script I use in
conjunction with Simon Willison's addloadevent script:
http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2004/05/26/addLoadEvent
This is an example, the rel values are for guidance. If you, like me,
are picky, remember to link to a profile in the html if you use
custom rel values; the format of which, I'm afraid, will never be
decided.
var POPUP = {
open : function(link,uri,window,arg) {
linkys.onclick = function(){
window.open( uri, window, arg);
return false;
}
},
init : function() {
var linkys = document.links;
var arg,window;
for (var i=0; ihttp://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
[WSG] styleswitcher
Hi everyone. I'm building a new version of my personal site: the final beta is nearly ending, but now I have two little problems. First, you can see the beta here http://www.adtweb.it/beta/home.html 1. In the right of the site, there is a Orange: clik on this, a js load the "alt" css (1802b.css). On my actual site(try to clik on "Style" in the left http://homepage.mac.com/matteo.discardi/home.html), this js works fine and the new style remains in all page: in this new version, every new page reload the first css (1802a.css). Why? 2. Someone can explain me why IE don't draw the menu height as 17px as I write in css? Firefox and Safari works fine :( Thanx for all -- Matteo Discardi 1802 http://homepage.mac.com/matteo.discardi "Transcending History and the World, a tale of Soul and Swords eternally retold" SoulCalibur ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] duplicate id
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Shawn J. Cassick wrote: i have tossed the class in there instead of the id, but then the css for some reason wont render on screen. Of course you need to change your CSS to reference classes rather than ids. Without sounding patronising, may I suggest a beginners tutorial on CSS to get to grips with the basics? http://www.htmldog.com/guides/cssbeginner/ lol yah know, a smart ass comment helps you realize you overlooked something really basic, i feel kinda stupid now. thanks pat for the constructive criticism ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
