[WSG] Numbered paragraphs

[lucian]

Hi guys,

I work for a government organisation in Singapore and one of the  
practices is numbering paragraphs on press releases. I'd use an  
ordered list, but where headers are inserted, I am forced to do an start="n">, which I understand is deprecated.


What other more semantic alternatives are there?


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Thierry Koblentz]

Jough wrote:
> I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an
> argument, but I would like to give my opinion on the semantics of this
> particular project.
>
> In some rare occasions multiple 's are necessary to define a
> particular , but I do not think that is the case here.  The
> members 'name' definitely defines his/her image, but do 'total posts'
> and 'score' define the image as well?

I don't agree with this definition (no pun intended) of a DD. DDs do not
"define" the DT (the D stands for "Description").
I'd agree it is "rare" to see more than one DT but not to see multiple DDs.

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Nello Lucchesi]

I use definition lists to markup the semantics of name/value pairs.

Can anyone suggest a better way of representing that a relation 
exists between two elements?


  - nello

Nello Lucchesi
The October Group, Ltd.



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[WSG Announce] New feature in the WSG system

[Peter Firminger]

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Hi everyone.

Following the WSG Core Members Summit a few weeks ago, we have implemented a
new feature to the WSG website and some others new features are in the wings
over the coming months.

Members living near a WSG Meeting or one of the proposed new meetings can
now set their email preferences to receive meeting announcements via a
specific low-traffic announce list for that city. This will save the rest of
the members having to see these local meeting announcements (though anyone
anywhere can also subscribe to these lists).

The cities are:
AU: Adelaide, Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney
NZ: Auckland and Wellington
UK: London and East Yorkshire

If you live in or near one of those cities and want to be notified of the
meetings and other events in your city, please go into your member settings
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_edit.cfm and select the list you
require.

Current direct mailing lists for members in these cities will cease to be
used shortly.

>From December 2006, RSVPs for meetings will all be done directly on the
website rather than emailing the spam-heavy sydney@, melbourne@ etc.
addresses.

-

If you have noticed (on
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm#totals ) a number of
members near you and you would like to consider starting a local meeting
group, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we'll help to get
you started and put you in contact with interested people in your area (with
their permission of course).

Cities with good member numbers are:

Rio de Janeiro (Brasil)
Toronto (Canada - I think this is happening already)
Bangalore (India)
Chennai (India)
Madrid (Spain)
Los Angeles (USA)
Sacramento (USA)
San Diego (USA)
San Francisco (USA)
Denver (USA)
Washington DC (USA)
Atlanta (USA) 
Chicago (USA)
Boston (USA)
Minneapolis (USA)
New York (USA - Something may be happening here too)
Philadelphia (USA)
Austin (USA)
Dallas (USA)
Houston (USA)
Seattle (USA)

Interestingly, Australia has taken the lead back from the US with 1020
members in Australia and 1003 members in the US. The UK has about 566, India
180, Canada 128, New Zealand 120, Germany 85, Brasil 66, Spain 56 and Italy
52 members.

-

I'd like to personally thank the following people that took time on a very
busy (long) weekend to attend the Core Summit in Sydney and help plan the
future of your WSG.

Cameron Adams
Peter Asquith
Vicki Berry 
Ben Bishop 
Pricilla Brice-Weller
Gavin Dispain
James Ellis
Ruth Ellison
Lindsay Evans
Lachlan Hardy 
Lisa Herrod
Amit Karmakar
Andrew Krespanis
Matt Magain 
Adam Schilling 
Kay Smoljak 
Russ Weakley

The meeting was chaired by Andrew Fernandez and Lisa Miller (and I played
the part of 'grumpy old man taking notes').

I'd also like to thank the rest of the Core Members that couldn't make it to
the meeting but continue to do great work for this community:

Ben Bishop
Avril Bowie
Mike Brown
Lea de Groot
Lisa Howdin
Michele Huston
David McDonald
Gary Menzel
Craig Sharkie
Mark Stanton
Darren Wood
Terrence Wood

Finally thanks to Tony Redhead and Lisa Miller from Red Square for allowing
us to use their conference room for the meeting.

More new developments to come soon.

Regards,

Peter Firminger




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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Nick Lo]

If the programmer's markup had been better than the example you gave  
then it would be ok to be picky about whether a DL is the best  
choice. However it isn't. DL is of course a standard that is included  
in the W3C spec. I do agree though, with Patrick's comment; "DL is a  
badly (or rather, fluffily) designed construct" in that a DL is vague  
enough to be used in a lot of circumstances. Even the specs are  
pretty loose:


"Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in  
that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The  
term is given by the DT element and is restricted to inline content.  
The description is given with a DD element that contains block-level  
content. ... Another application of DL, for example, is for marking  
up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing  
his or her words."


I personally always think of each DD of being in a "HAS-A" or "IS-A"  
relationship with it's DT so if we take a soccer player:



Player One
IS-A player for Team United
IS-A midfield player
HAS-A goal score record of 200


In object-oriented programming terms these DD's are a little like the  
properties of an object and the DT is an instance of the object.


In just the same way I see your listed items as defining the member  
in the context of this web application:



Avatar Image
HAS-A username Orang Utan
HAS-A total post count of 1012
HAS-AN overall score of 3028


In short the arguments that appear to be coming from the programmer  
do not make a lot of sense. I say "appear" as you do not seem to have  
spoken to the programmer directly which is something I'd encourage  
you to try and do if possible. The root problem here seems to be not  
a DL but a lack of a communication path between those involved in the  
work which will undoubtedly lead to confusion and wasted effort.


Anyway, hope that helps a little,

Nick

On 12/10/2006, at 3:13 AM, Tee G. Peng wrote:

A while ago I did a small layout (member profile) that looks like  
this for client for a social bookmarking application in Rails  
framework:


http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html

I had it style in definition lists.  Few days ago I was asked to  
add  three tabs to the member profile, and a new section to a page  
that looks similar to above layout, except that it's two column, an  
image, title and descriptions. I had it style with definition list  
again with the image floated to left.



	>

Orang utan
1012 total posts
3028 overall score


When adding markup for three tabs to the member profile section, I  
realized my markup for member profile was replaced to


 
Total  
Posts

  1437



Overall score






Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced  
because her client's programmer said  is not standard practise.  
She also questioned my choice of the new markup with definition  
list again, she said she can't submit it to her client therefor  
needs an explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to  
the meeting.


I told her I cannot explain better than the  W3C has for the  
specification of Definition Lists, so I will just quote from there

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
a) definition lists can contain multiple terms or definitions
b) that definition lists can also be used for other applications,  
for example, a dialogue.


and looking at the content:
a picture
name of the person
total posts of the person
overall score of the person.

I couldn't think how I would have it markup otherwise, except maybe:

Orang utan
		>

1012 total posts
3028 overall score



Ever-since I work for this client, I realize many things I have  
learned about web standards have great difficulty to apply to web  
application that the contents are fed by users; so that have been  
confusion, doubts (about certain things you guys treated as top  
rules) and compromises.


I am awaiting for explanation from client why definition list is  
not 'standard practise'.
I understand in that web application, every class and unique ID,  
are hooked up to Ajax or JS codes.
My programming knowledge is next to zero, so I am very curious, are  
there things that JS/AJAX/Rails can't do with definition list?



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[WSG Announce] Some links for light reading (12/10/06)

[russ - maxdesign]

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This email covers:
- Links for light reading
- WSG and Industry events
- Industry related Jobs (1 new jobs this week)

If you have an event, resource or relevant job you'd like posted (from any
country), please let me know.

--
LINKS FOR LIGHT READING
--
This weeks "links for light reading" are also available here:


Working with Others: Accessibility and User Research
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/workingwithothers

The ALA Primer Part Two: Resources For Beginners
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alaprimer2

Should I Make a Flash Site? Flash Website Flowchart
http://www.thegooglecache.com/?p=46

The Great Accessibility Camp-Out
http://accessites.org/gbcms_xml/news_page.php?id=24#n24

IE7 Is Coming This Month...Are you Ready?
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/10/06/IE7-Is-Coming-This-Month_2E002E0
02E00_Are-you-Ready_3F00_.aspx

Firefox 2 Release notes
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/2.0/releasenotes/

Selling Jeffrey Zeldman on Selling
http://www.subtraction.com/archives/2006/1010_selling_jeff.php

The minimalist backlash
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/25/the-miminalist-backlash/

Teaching Web Design, part 5
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/28/teaching-web-design-part-5/

In search of the missing run-in value
http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/css/in-search-of-the-missing-run-in-val
ue

Be Accessible, Don¹t Meet Guidelines
http://www.thepickards.co.uk/index.php/200610/be-accessible-dont-meet-guidel
ines/

3 Easy Steps to Avoid JavaScript Memory Leaks
http://www.jackslocum.com/yui/2006/10/02/3-easy-steps-to-avoid-javascript-me
mory-leaks/

CSS Tip: Targeting IE 5.x, 6 and 7 Separately
http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/63

Finding fresh inspiration
http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/finding_fresh_inspiration.php


--
WSG AND INDUSTRY EVENTS
--

October Web Standards Group meeting (London) Microformats! - 19th October

Speaking at the event will be three people who rank among some of the
leading lights in the field of microformats; Drew McLellan, Jeremy Keith and
Mark Norman Francis. Between them they will be covering the nuts and bolts
of microformats through to some more involved implementations.
http://muffinresearch.co.uk/archives/2006/10/05/wsg-microformats-thursday-19
th-october/


October Web Standards Group meeting (Sydney) - 19 October

A joint meeting with the WSG and Sydney Flash Platform Developers Group
The Web - a blind perspective - Lee Kumutat, Training and Braille Products
Manager from Quantum Technology will be talking about the web from a blind
perspective.
The mobile web - what you need to know right now
Dominique Lee will be exploring the mobile web, where it is at and where it
is going and what you need to know right now!
Sponsored by Access Testing
http://webstandardsgroup.org/meetings/index.cfm?event_id=74
RSVP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


IDEA2006 (Seattle) 23-24 October

IDEA 2006 brings together a diverse set of designers, creators, and
researchers addressing a fundamental challenge we're facing today - how to
let everyday people take true advantage of the overwhelming mass of
information that floods their lives.
http://www.ideaconference.org/


Open Standards (Sydney) - 25-27 October

OASIS Open Standards 2006 is the fourth annual Asia Pacific event where both
management and technical professionals from the business and government
sector can gather to share expertise and promote
open discussion on the latest technologies, applications and services
supporting the global e-Business community.
http://www.open-standards.com/


Web Accessibility Workshops

* Sydney - 2  November
* Canberra - 14  November
These full-day workshops run by Vision Australia, are targeted at
web-development team leaders, corporate communications professionals and
business managers, along with content authors, web programmers and designers
and web contract managers. These workshops provide a thorough overview of
accessibility issues and how to address them. They cover the World Wide Web
Consortium's Content Accessibility Guidelines and their implementation and a
consideration of assessment tools and techniques.
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/webworkshops/


Writing for the Web Workshop (Melbourne) - 2 November

This practical workshop run by Vision Australia focuses on enhancing the
usability and accessibility of your web content and will teach you how to
communicate effectively with your readers.
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=608


Building Enterprise Web Apps on a Budget - How We Built Fli

Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The problems were with a liquid form layout I was doing for a new
cms with tooltips floated left and the labels and form controls in
regular flow inside the dd's. Plus nearly everything had % widths which
doesn't make things any easier for IE. Anyway, fluid stuff and floats
can cause some issues if the CSS is not specific enough but quirksmode
sorted it all out in the end.


Ah, sounds like issues with liquid and floats, which like to conflict
with Javascript, which tends to work well only with things that have
exact dimensions and are static.

One way or another, the problem is not with the DLs, and I can't
imagine why the programmer *can't* do this with DLs at all.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Rob O'Rourke]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Rob O'Rourke wrote:

Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been 
messing with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE 
quirks and cross browser differences even before adding any scripts.


Strange, I've never had issues like that with DLs...unless some bits 
of CSS got lost in the leaky internet tubes. Do you have any more info 
on this?


Patrick


   I do indeed, its a combination of lost CSS (the tubes round here are 
FULL of holes) and too much CSS dependency going on (bad habit of mine).


   The problems were with a liquid form layout I was doing for a new 
cms with tooltips floated left and the labels and form controls in 
regular flow inside the dd's. Plus nearly everything had % widths which 
doesn't make things any easier for IE. Anyway, fluid stuff and floats 
can cause some issues if the CSS is not specific enough but quirksmode 
sorted it all out in the end.


   Rob (random css department)



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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Richard Conyard]

Title: Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise






Tee,
  As patrick says wheb it comes to dl usage there are plenty of ways to skin the cat.

The question to ask is a dl appropriate?  If yes then the point moves to the programmers familiarity with the dl construct.

Because generally through lack of knowledge it is not a common construct, but the point to relay is that this doesn't make it wrong.


- Original Message -
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Wed Oct 11 20:56:10 2006
Subject: Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise


On Oct 11, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

>  so there are probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or 
> orang utan).

Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job.

tee


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Tee G. Peng wrote:


Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job.


What I'm saying is: the definition list is fine, the additional proposed 
use of a DL and a UL is probably fine as well, and you could even treat 
it as a small table (as long as appropriate headings are given for both 
columns and rows).


Personally, I wouldn't see any problem just with the DL.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Tee G. Peng]

On Oct 11, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

 so there are probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or  
orang utan).


Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job.

tee


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Jough wrote:


I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an
argument


DL is a badly (or rather, fluffily) designed construct, so there are 
probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or orang utan).


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Rob O'Rourke wrote:


Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be
why.


Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as
long as it is a block by default in this case.


Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing 
with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and 
cross browser differences even before adding any scripts.


Strange, I've never had issues like that with DLs...unless some bits of 
CSS got lost in the leaky internet tubes. Do you have any more info on this?


Patrick
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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RE: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Jough]

> 
> >
>   Orang utan
>   1012 total posts
>   3028 overall score
>   


I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an
argument, but I would like to give my opinion on the semantics of this
particular project. 

In some rare occasions multiple 's are necessary to define a particular
, but I do not think that is the case here.  The members 'name'
definitely defines his/her image, but do 'total posts' and 'score' define
the image as well?

Personally, I would recommend the following.




Orang utan


1012 total posts
3028 overall score



Just my two pennies...

Jough



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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Rob O'Rourke]

Tee G. Peng wrote:


On Oct 11, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Rob O'Rourke wrote:




Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have 
multiple s ? That might be what they were getting at. You can 
nest almost anything inside a  so that might be another solution.


Rob, Cool was not the intention I use definition list for that member 
profile.


I didn't say it was, i just think they're cool =]

I also do not think you can nest almost everything inside a  in 
this layout.

http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html



Don't see why not, its valid. 
http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/DTDMapper/
I meant use divs or spans or whatever inside the  but i was assuming 
you had one dl for a list of profiles so I was mistaken. The markups 
really nice.




Do you know what the scripts will be doing with the markup e.g. 
resizing, hiding, doing backflips etc..?




I don't know. If you are interested, I can send you the site's url 
offlist. Can't post it on public though as I afraid I may lose my job :)


tee


no worries =] It looks like the profiles will just be grabbed from the 
db. You should have a decent argument for them now though.




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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Rob O'Rourke]

Christian Montoya wrote:

On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Tee G. Peng wrote:
>
> Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because
> her client's programmer said  is not standard practise. She also
> questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she
> said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation
> from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting.
>
>
Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have
multiple s ?


Yes.


Cool


Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be
why.


Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as
long as it is a block by default in this case.


Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing 
with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and 
cross browser differences even before adding any scripts. I'm just 
offering suggestions as to why the programmer might have said its not 
standard. I don't think its right to make a judgement about their html 
abilities without more info from Tee.


   Take it easy,
  Rob



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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Tee G. Peng]

On Oct 11, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Rob O'Rourke wrote:




Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to  
have multiple s ? That might be what they were getting at. You  
can nest almost anything inside a  so that might be another  
solution.


Rob, Cool was not the intention I use definition list for that member  
profile. I also do not think you can nest almost everything inside a  
 in this layout.

http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html



Do you know what the scripts will be doing with the markup e.g.  
resizing, hiding, doing backflips etc..?




I don't know. If you are interested, I can send you the site's url  
offlist. Can't post it on public though as I afraid I may lose my job :)


tee


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[MarcLuzietti]

I think the problem is that standard and standards have different 
meanings. By standard practice, the programmer means that definition lists 
are rarely used (which is true, if you're dealing with old-school web 
designers / programmers). So standard practice and practicing standards 
means two opposite things. Isn't  English great? :-) Nine times out of 
ten, the programmer is going to have the last word, which means push a 
little, explain why your way is superior, and then when they don't care, 
do it their way.

-- 
Marc Luzietti
Flagship Project
Bayview Financial, L.P.
(305) 341-5624




"Tee G. Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
10/11/2006 01:13 PM
Please respond to wsg

 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
cc: 
Subject:[WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard 
practise


A while ago I did a small layout (member profile) that looks like 
this for client for a social bookmarking application in Rails framework:

http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html

I had it style in definition lists.  Few days ago I was asked to add 
three tabs to the member profile, and a new section to a page that 
looks similar to above layout, except that it's two column, an image, 
title and descriptions. I had it style with definition list again 
with the image floated to left.


 
 Orang utan
 1012 total posts
 3028 overall score
 

When adding markup for three tabs to the member profile section, I 
realized my markup for member profile was replaced to

  
 Total 
Posts
   1437
 

 
 Overall score
 

 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
a) definition lists can contain multiple terms or definitions
b) that definition lists can also be used for other applications, for 
example, a dialogue.

and looking at the content:
a picture
name of the person
total posts of the person
overall score of the person.

I couldn't think how I would have it markup otherwise, except maybe:
 
 Orang utan
 
 1012 total posts
 3028 overall score
 


Ever-since I work for this client, I realize many things I have 
learned about web standards have great difficulty to apply to web 
application that the contents are fed by users; so that have been 
confusion, doubts (about certain things you guys treated as top 
rules) and compromises.

I am awaiting for explanation from client why definition list is not 
'standard practise'.
I understand in that web application, every class and unique ID, are 
hooked up to Ajax or JS codes.
My programming knowledge is next to zero, so I am very curious, are 
there things that JS/AJAX/Rails can't do with definition list?


Thanks!

tee





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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Tee G. Peng wrote:
>
> Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because
> her client's programmer said  is not standard practise. She also
> questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she
> said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation
> from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting.
>
>
Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have
multiple s ?


Yes.


Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be
why.


Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as
long as it is a block by default in this case.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Rob O'Rourke]

Tee G. Peng wrote:

Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because 
her client's programmer said  is not standard practise. She also 
questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she 
said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation 
from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting.




Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have 
multiple s ? That might be what they were getting at. You can nest 
almost anything inside a  so that might be another solution.


Do you know what the scripts will be doing with the markup e.g. 
resizing, hiding, doing backflips etc..?


Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be 
why. Annoying as it may be.


   Rob


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Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsers

[dwain . alford]

Kevin Murphy wrote:
I'm still seeing only a very small percentage of users with IE 7, but 
even after its released, my campus CS department has the auto updates 
for things like IE disabled, so I don't think that our lab computers 
will be upgrading when everyone else does, and i don't think we are 
unique in that. So be prepared that there will be a bunch of legacy 
computers out there running old versions for a while. 



as long as i run win2k, i'm still with ie6.  ie7 won't run on w2k - 
that's what ms says.

dwain


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Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/11/06, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...

I am awaiting for explanation from client why definition list is not
'standard practise'.
I understand in that web application, every class and unique ID, are
hooked up to Ajax or JS codes.
My programming knowledge is next to zero, so I am very curious, are
there things that JS/AJAX/Rails can't do with definition list?


(you see, the real problem here, is that the programmer is an idiot
about markup. but you can't use that as your argument, so moving
on...)

Other than showing that definition list *is* and *always has been* a
part of HTML (and showing the HTML 4 / XHTML 1 specs to prove it), you
could also make it very clear to the client that the programmer can
use the exact same id/classes with the definition list as he/she would
use with divs, and things will work exactly the same.

To give you the programming understanding, JS/AJAX/Rails have no
problem with definition lists or anything else. The problem is the
programmer who doesn't seem to know how to do things well and is
insisting that you change your markup rather than he change his way of
thinking. Try your very best to educate him, if possible.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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[WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

[Tee G. Peng]

A while ago I did a small layout (member profile) that looks like  
this for client for a social bookmarking application in Rails framework:


http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html

I had it style in definition lists.  Few days ago I was asked to add   
three tabs to the member profile, and a new section to a page that  
looks similar to above layout, except that it's two column, an image,  
title and descriptions. I had it style with definition list again  
with the image floated to left.



	>

Orang utan
1012 total posts
3028 overall score


When adding markup for three tabs to the member profile section, I  
realized my markup for member profile was replaced to


 
Total  
Posts

  1437



Overall score






Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because  
her client's programmer said  is not standard practise. She also  
questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again,  
she said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an  
explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting.


I told her I cannot explain better than the  W3C has for the  
specification of Definition Lists, so I will just quote from there

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
a) definition lists can contain multiple terms or definitions
b) that definition lists can also be used for other applications, for  
example, a dialogue.


and looking at the content:
a picture
name of the person
total posts of the person
overall score of the person.

I couldn't think how I would have it markup otherwise, except maybe:

Orang utan
		>

1012 total posts
3028 overall score



Ever-since I work for this client, I realize many things I have  
learned about web standards have great difficulty to apply to web  
application that the contents are fed by users; so that have been  
confusion, doubts (about certain things you guys treated as top  
rules) and compromises.


I am awaiting for explanation from client why definition list is not  
'standard practise'.
I understand in that web application, every class and unique ID, are  
hooked up to Ajax or JS codes.
My programming knowledge is next to zero, so I am very curious, are  
there things that JS/AJAX/Rails can't do with definition list?



Thanks!

tee





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Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsers

[Kevin Murphy]

I'm still seeing only a very small percentage of users with IE 7, but even after its released, my campus CS department has the auto updates for things like IE disabled, so I don't think that our lab computers will be upgrading when everyone else does, and i don't think we are unique in that. So be prepared that there will be a bunch of legacy computers out there running old versions for a while. -- Kevin MurphyWebmaster: Information and Marketing ServicesWestern Nevada Community Collegewww.wncc.edu775-445-3326 On Oct 11, 2006, at 7:32 AM, David Cameron wrote:I know I know. ;)Looks like MS are prettyy much forcing IE7 on users with automatic updates anyway, so would be wise to get future proofed. From: ~davidLaakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsersDate: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:39:26 -0400David Cameron wrote: Right. Decided to solve it all a better way (I think).I've installed IE7, Firefox and Opera and will redesign to meet their requirements. IE versions prior to 7 get second place now. [...] Dave Cameron. This is in reference to your uri:  . Content rules the Web. Put some up. Keep it simple. And let your users determine who is in second place :-) .Best,~dL***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** 
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Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsers

[David Cameron]

I know I know. ;)

Looks like MS are prettyy much forcing IE7 on users with automatic updates 
anyway, so would be wise to get future proofed.




From: ~davidLaakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsers
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:39:26 -0400

David Cameron wrote:

Right. Decided to solve it all a better way (I think).

I've installed IE7, Firefox and Opera and will redesign to meet their 
requirements. IE versions prior to 7 get second place now.




[...]

Dave Cameron.


This is in reference to your uri: 
 . Content rules the Web. 
Put some up. Keep it simple. And let your users determine who is in second 
place :-) .

Best,
~dL


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Re: [WSG] IE shrinks/pushes margins on :hover

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Oct 11, 2006, at 6:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I don't know where to look.
Is this the infamous "hop on :hover" or "shrinking margins" or maybe
"collapsing margins", mentioned on
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html ? Something  
completely

different?

As I said, I'm pretty sure the problematic elements do not trigger  
Layout
in IE, but the symptoms sounds like those described at  
satzansatz.de...


It could be one of those. A link would useful. My crystal ball is at  
the repair shop.

Other possibility:


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh






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Re: [WSG] Fonts and standards

[Lachlan Hunt]

Kat wrote:
Is there a platform-independent standards way of embedding or selecting 
particular fonts that your user may not have pre-installed? Or is it 
still the Flash text replacement/graphic/most installed fonts mix?


IE is still the only one that implemented some support for the old CSS2 
@font-face font descriptors, but that method is now effectively 
obsolete.  There are some new and improved proposals under development 
within the CSS working group for CSS3, but they're still a long way from 
the implementation stage.  AFAIK, sIFR or image replacement is still 
your best option for that.



--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] IE shrinks/pushes margins on :hover

[John Faulds]

Have you got a link to your page?

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:47:44 +1000, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Internet Explorer for Windows renders my standards-compliant page with
some errors. It renders correctly in Firefox and Safari.


THE SYMPTOMS:

When I hover on an a header (H2) containing an anchor, IE shrinks - or
"pushes" - the margins of that element, so that it moves upwards and thus
out of order. As soon as it has moved on :hover, the element doesn't  
"jump

back" until I reload the page.


THE CODE:

I use dynamic values for the H2 anchor (percentages) and static values
(pixels) for all other widths, padding and margins. This also goes for  
the

DIVs containing the problematic headers.
It makes no difference, if I change the dynamic values into static. I  
also

tried different display options. - Same problem occurs.

As far as I know, none of my CSS should set hasLayout=true, as it has no
height, width or zoom properties set.


SOLUTIONS?

I don't know where to look.
Is this the infamous "hop on :hover" or "shrinking margins" or maybe
"collapsing margins", mentioned on
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html ? Something completely
different?

As I said, I'm pretty sure the problematic elements do not trigger Layout
in IE, but the symptoms sounds like those described at satzansatz.de...


I hope someone can help me out.
Kind regards, John.



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--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Fonts and standards

[Matthew Pennell]

On 10/11/06, Kat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is there a platform-independent standards way of embedding or selectingparticular fonts that your user may not have pre-installed? Or is itstill the Flash text replacement/graphic/most installed fonts mix?
Afraid it's still the latter, although there is a half-hearted 'movement' petitioning Adobe to release their most popular fonts for use on all platforms.

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[WSG] Fonts and standards

[Kat]

Gday,

It's been a while since I peered into the dark heart of fonts and 
standards, and I was wondering if anything since has changed?


Is there a platform-independent standards way of embedding or selecting 
particular fonts that your user may not have pre-installed? Or is it 
still the Flash text replacement/graphic/most installed fonts mix?


Kat



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Re: [WSG] IE shrinks/pushes margins on :hover

[Simon Moss]

Internet Explorer for Windows renders my standards-compliant page with
some errors. It renders correctly in Firefox and Safari.



THE SYMPTOMS:

When I hover on an a header (H2) containing an anchor, IE shrinks - or
"pushes" - the margins of that element, so that it moves upwards and thus
out of order. As soon as it has moved on :hover, the element doesn't  
"jump

back" until I reload the page.


Hi John - I've recently experienced this problem - in fact every time I  
hovered over a particular link the entire content of the page resized  
smaller - moving up and to the left. As you say, it wouldn't reset until I  
reloaded the page. This was only happening in IE6 on Windows. The code was  
valid - I was at my wits end.


I had a percentage set for the body width of 100%. When I removed this  
completely (can't remember now why I put that there in the first place!)  
the problem was solved.


I can't offer you a fix - but can therefore suggest you try an alternative  
to setting the width as a percentage - try it with a fixed width  
temporarily and see if the problem persists.


Hope this helps!

Simon



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[WSG] IE shrinks/pushes margins on :hover

[jw]

Internet Explorer for Windows renders my standards-compliant page with
some errors. It renders correctly in Firefox and Safari.


THE SYMPTOMS:

When I hover on an a header (H2) containing an anchor, IE shrinks - or
"pushes" - the margins of that element, so that it moves upwards and thus
out of order. As soon as it has moved on :hover, the element doesn't "jump
back" until I reload the page.


THE CODE:

I use dynamic values for the H2 anchor (percentages) and static values
(pixels) for all other widths, padding and margins. This also goes for the
DIVs containing the problematic headers.
It makes no difference, if I change the dynamic values into static. I also
tried different display options. - Same problem occurs.

As far as I know, none of my CSS should set hasLayout=true, as it has no
height, width or zoom properties set.


SOLUTIONS?

I don't know where to look.
Is this the infamous "hop on :hover" or "shrinking margins" or maybe
"collapsing margins", mentioned on
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html ? Something completely
different?

As I said, I'm pretty sure the problematic elements do not trigger Layout
in IE, but the symptoms sounds like those described at satzansatz.de...


I hope someone can help me out.
Kind regards, John.



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Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsers

[~davidLaakso]

David Cameron wrote:

Right. Decided to solve it all a better way (I think).

I've installed IE7, Firefox and Opera and will redesign to meet their 
requirements. IE versions prior to 7 get second place now.




[...]

Dave Cameron.


This is in reference to your uri: 
 . Content rules the 
Web. Put some up. Keep it simple. And let your users determine who is in 
second place :-) .

Best,
~dL


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